MOCO will be dis-continuing the XL883 and the XL1200R for the 2009 model year. Hope that means we will se the XR1200R as a replacement in Vegas Baybe ! Let you know as soon as I find out.

MOCO will be dis-continuing the XL883 and the XL1200R for the 2009 model year.

It's not that I don't believe you but if this is true, I don't believe Harley.

I see that you're new here, hello from Pittsburgh and welcome to the forum.

Where did you get that information?

Doesn't look very new to me, maybe reads a lot and only posts when they know it's important info!

Join Date: Jan 2006

I hope this particular vision of info comes true!!!!

:)

Doesn't really matter to me. I have my sporty...:banana:banana:banana

sounds like the rumour mill is spinning up early this year.

Did H-D have the 2009 trade show already?

Info straight from the MOCO. True I am not new, just little posts'. I am a Dealer in Il.

Info straight from the MOCO. True I am not new, just little posts'. I am a Dealer in Il.

Which one? My buddy out there is knows the owner of Chi-Town.

If this IS True, I have very mixed feelings about this news. And I HOPE the XR1200 is coming to USA in 2009 to make up for the loss !

MOCO will be dis-continuing the XL883 and the XL1200R for the 2009 model year. Hope that means we will se the XR1200R as a replacement in Vegas Baybe ! Let you know as soon as I find out.

I figured that the 1200R would go once the XR1200 showed up anyway. It will be a shame to see it go. IMO, the 1200R is the last traditional style motorcycle that HD builds. It doesn't seem to be very popular around central Iowa. I have never been able to find one at any of the three dealerships close to Des Moines.

Not that I don't want the XR1200 to come to the US...I can't wait.

Should I start a new thread, or post it on this thread, that the new XR1200R will dust the ZX1400 Kaw and the 'Busa. I think on this forum it would be pretty easy to convince 'em since there's some on here now that think they get 'em with what there riding now.

That would suck. Dumping the last of the standards would be idiotic. It's like they want to drive folks to Triumph Bonnevilles.

XL1200R is a damn fine bike. The R and the N are the only two I remotely considered.

The XR is a totally different feel - arguably a different market. Plenty of room for both bikes, at least around here. The R is one of the most popular.

I will concede that there are too many XLs in the line, but killing the base-line models would be a strange move. The industry is primed for more standards, not less.

Should I start a new thread, or post it on this thread, that the new XR1200R will dust the ZX1400 Kaw and the 'Busa. I think on this forum it would be pretty easy to convince 'em since there's some on here now that think they get 'em with what there riding now.
Shenanigans. Not even close.

The XR may be a lot of things, but that kind of fast isn't one of them. Faster than the XL line, I might believe, but let's not get carried away.

I'll assume you are kidding.

Shenanigans. Not even close.

The XR may be a lot of things, but that kind of fast isn't one of them. Faster than the XL line, I might believe, but let's not get carried away.

I'll assume you are kidding.

Yep, I am. I wish it were true. That would be the only bike that would make me trade up, and that's the truth.

I'm not surprised. Sales numbers did not support the 883R. Most people who buy H-D's want laid-back cruisers and plenty of chrome. The 1200N came on very strong for the 25% who don't care for chrome. Don't hold your breath for the XR1200......

The 883R died a simple death - there were too many bikes that fit the bill; the 50, the L, the C, and the standard 883. Not to mention all the 1200's and the afore mentioned Triumphs. The "low sales" are a self fulfilling prophecy when the line looks like it did. It couldn't succeed.

The entire XL line is far too large, it cannibalizes it's own market. Narrowing the line is a good thing, but getting rid of two of the only truly different bikes is foolhardy (c'mon - do we really need a C and an L?). Like I said - it's as if they intentionally want to lose sales to Triumph.

My preferred line up:
883
883L

1200R
1200N
1200L

And hopefully the XR1200

No need or room for anything else.

I could even see dropping the L in both 883 and 1200, but short people are big fans - and a big chunk of the market. So the formula is simple: a standard, a low, and a real "custom" (the N) for the 1200.

Arguably you could kill all the 883's (I think that's inevitable) and keep the 1200R as the entry level standard. That would just leave the 1200R, N, and L. At that point bringing the XR in would make lots of sense.

Then, where the N is in the "custom" spot they could introduce something fun every couple of years (like a CR, XR, N, and rotate a couple of other nostalgia retro-fits) and not disrupt the basic line.

Killing the standards is ignoring the industry trends... Guzzi, Yamaha, Ducati, and Honda are all introducing new "retro" standards, and Triumph is still dominating with them (even BMW is rumored to be getting in on the wave) - the riders can't get enough. Why in a climate like that would you kill the only two bikes that can compete?

I know the source for this, and its most often wrong. Dropping the R makes sense only if the XR is indeed in the line up. And do you think HD is going to get rid of its lowest price model duing hard economic times?

No, this is just flat wrong, unsubstantiated rumour. If this is a dealer, He should know better, and its not as if Dealers don't put out wrong information damn near everyday. Most of 'em still have not figgered out how to write proper ad copy.

The HD/Buell dealership I work at has had two 2008 XL1200Rs come in.Both sold right away within a few days. I"d rather see them keep the XL883, and maybe drop the 883L.The XL883 could maybe be ordered with the shorter shocks and cutdown seat for shorter folks.I was sorry to see the XL883R dropped for the US.I would hate to see them drop the XL1200R. I like the larger tank, but I suppose most riders may prefer the smaller peanut tank.I am 100% for selling the new XR1200 here in the US.In fact, I am holding out for a while to see if they do bring it here (well, that and kids in college LOL).

jon

I know the source for this, and its most often wrong. Dropping the R makes sense only if the XR is indeed in the line up. And do you think HD is going to get rid of its lowest price model duing hard economic times?

No, this is just flat wrong, unsubstantiated rumour. If this is a dealer, He should know better, and its not as if Dealers don't put out wrong information damn near everyday. Most of 'em still have not figgered out how to write proper ad copy.

i'm inclined to agree with this. not to mention that dealers are held to very strict confidentiality rules. if found violating these rules, could be very big trouble for them. i think out of all the rumours over the past 4 years, about 5% have come to fruition. i will wait and see.

I used to work at an H-D dealership, and the Motor Co. doesn't announce anything until the trade show... And the second day of the trade show is usually the day that they update the website to show the (in this case) 2009 line-up. We'll all know for sure in June, and the bikes will start hitting the dealerships in July.

Like that rumor that they were going to make the Sportster EFI. That will never happen.

XL1200R is a damn fine bike. The R and the N are the only two I remotely considered.

The XR is a totally different feel - arguably a different market. Plenty of room for both bikes, at least around here. The R is one of the most popular.


Judging from the statistics I see on this board and from what I see on the street (at least in Eastern PA and the dozen or so dealers around here) you are 100% completely OFF base. Aside from the low models (which are needed unless they replace them with the Ns for smaller stature people), with the 883R gone the 1200R is the WORST seller (I'm not counting the base 883 because Harley NEEDS a low dollar bike too).


883 Standard 276 15.37%
883 Low 112 6.24%
883 Custom 250 13.92%
883 Roadster 72 4.01%
1200 Low 78 4.34%
1200 Custom 650 36.19%
1200 Roadster 358 19.93%
Voters: 1796. You have already voted on this poll


The 883R died a simple death - there were too many bikes that fit the bill; the 50, the L, the C, and the standard 883. Not to mention all the 1200's and the afore mentioned Triumphs. The "low sales" are a self fulfilling prophecy when the line looks like it did. It couldn't succeed.

The entire XL line is far too large, it cannibalizes it's own market. Narrowing the line is a good thing, but getting rid of two of the only truly different bikes is foolhardy (c'mon - do we really need a C and an L?). Like I said - it's as if they intentionally want to lose sales to Triumph.

My preferred line up:
883
883L

1200R
1200N
1200L

And hopefully the XR1200

No need or room for anything else.

I could even see dropping the L in both 883 and 1200, but short people are big fans - and a big chunk of the market. So the formula is simple: a standard, a low, and a real "custom" (the N) for the 1200.

Arguably you could kill all the 883's (I think that's inevitable) and keep the 1200R as the entry level standard. That would just leave the 1200R, N, and L. At that point bringing the XR in would make lots of sense.

Then, where the N is in the "custom" spot they could introduce something fun every couple of years (like a CR, XR, N, and rotate a couple of other nostalgia retro-fits) and not disrupt the basic line.

Killing the standards is ignoring the industry trends... Guzzi, Yamaha, Ducati, and Honda are all introducing new "retro" standards, and Triumph is still dominating with them (even BMW is rumored to be getting in on the wave) - the riders can't get enough. Why in a climate like that would you kill the only two bikes that can compete?

Again, your preferred lineup has Harley IGNORING the BEST SELLING Sportster Models (the customs) - granted the N has probably stolen some thunder from the C, but forward controls and chrome and a big tank are still gonna draw a bunch of people.

Here are my thoughts -

883 - bargain basement price
883N - (this serves the purpose of the L with more of the draw of the N)
883C - (the big tank, forward control 883 with some more chrome)

XR1200 - the performance 1200
1200N - (the short 1200 with peanut tank)
1200C - (the bikg tank, forward control, chromed Sporty)

I would, ironically, elimnate the Lows, since the N can fill the mid-mount and height slot. I say ironically, cause they are the last 2 we bought, but IF they hadn't been in the line-up I know Jenn would have bought an N in the hearbeat.

I know the source for this, and its most often wrong. Dropping the R makes sense only if the XR is indeed in the line up. And do you think HD is going to get rid of its lowest price model duing hard economic times?

No, this is just flat wrong, unsubstantiated rumour. If this is a dealer, He should know better, and its not as if Dealers don't put out wrong information damn near everyday. Most of 'em still have not figgered out how to write proper ad copy.


I REALLY could see the 1200R going away IF/When they bring the XR1200 here (because they would canibalize at least a portion of sales from each other and neither bike can really afford that) HOWEVER unless they replaced the base 883 with some other bargain basement price bike I don't see them dropping it. That just wouldn't make sense.

I DO think that there are plenty of Harley employees who DO KNOW what the plan is, but they're not talking publicly for fear of reprisals.

K

How about a base 1200 to replace the base 883 . I dont think it would cost a dime more to produce then the 883 and could replace two bikes in the line up , the xl883 and the 1200r.

Here are my thoughts -

883 - bargain basement price
883N - (this serves the purpose of the L with more of the draw of the N)
883C - (the big tank, forward control 883 with some more chrome)

XR1200 - the performance 1200
1200N - (the short 1200 with peanut tank)
1200C - (the bikg tank, forward control, chromed Sporty)


I too agree with this, it would make sense to make a slightly more affordable 883n to appeal to not only the shorter fans and well and the ones who cant afford or want the 1200. yes they would have to change the look maybe slightly to keep 1200n owners happy and so it wouldn't get mistaken for the little brother.

The base 883 needs to stay. Why would you drop the entry model when gas is stupid and sales are insane.

I agreed with the customs too, yes the younger generation likes the black "cool" nighster and stuff, but the older guys (and gals) who have been doing this for years, the real die hard sportster fans they love the 3 C's, Chrome, Comfort, Controls (forward). Not to be sexist or stereotypical here but it seems in this age group I'm talking about, the Guy will buy his 1200c and the wife gets the 883c.

As for the 1200r being replaced, yes it will be, BUT only if the XR1200 shows up here in NA. I'd hate to see the 1200r dropped (especially because I have an '08 ordered and on the way) but its the best setup i think in the sportster range, focusing on function more then fashion. Its simple, not flashy, dual discs, and it could be a better starting model for any style you want to take it weather it be bobber, cafe, chopper, it easily could be tailored in any direction.

Just my 2 cents ($CAD)

ATM

I agreed with the customs too, yes the younger generation likes the black "cool" nighster and stuff, but the older guys (and gals) who have been doing this for years, the real die hard sportster fans they love the 3 C's, Chrome, Comfort, Controls (forward). Not to be sexist or stereotypical here but it seems in this age group I'm talking about, the Guy will buy his 1200c and the wife gets the 883c.


You lost me with the generalizations - what's the age of that younger generation vs. the older guys and gals.

Cause I think I've been doing this for years, and I'm a die hard sportster fan - having bought 4 new ones in my life - but I've never (nor will I likely EVER) buy a C model - I don't see anything particularly comfortable about forwards... or lowered rear suspensions - no thanks...

Kev

Perhaps I don't fit the demographic, but I had my first Sportster back in 1972 and I just bought my current one in '06, an 883L. I got it for several reasons:
1. It was cheap, and a bargan even when compared to a lot of Japanese iron of similar or even larger displacement, though admitedly not as fast.
2. I find that it has plenty of power for me as it is, though I have changed to a Hurrican AC and may soon change to SE SP slip-ons. Beyond that, I don't see any further modifications, except maybe some more lighting and powder coating.
3. It runs on regular 87 octane just fine, without any pinging or problems, and as it is my daily driver (no car), I save a fortune on gas these days.
4. I don't like or want forward controls. I find that they do not allow me to put my weight up on the pegs in situations that require it and I prefer the stock riding position.
5. I find that a lot of chrome, especially on the engine, just helps to hold in heat. Not great on an air cooled engine in stop and go traffic.
Perhaps all this makes me a good candidate for a possible Nightster 883. And I think I'd likely buy one, too. I could always make it a 1200 if I wanted to, but to date, I haven't seen the need.

Kev M., I like the way you think. I agree that from a marketing standpoint this would probably be the best lineup.

The only thing that I would add as a possible lineup change,

Don't do an XL883N,
but keep the XL883L

Since not everybody likes the "Retro Blacked Out" look, it would be nice to offer a low bike w/ a standard look.

The L is a leader bike for H-D anyway, a gateway into the "Harley Lifestyle" that is affordable and easy to handle for beginner and shorter riders alike.

Since many people trade these bikes in anyway, don't go all out on the custom design of this model. Besides, you could always get a 1200cc kit for it later anyway, and custmize it however you want if you decide to keep it.

The only thing that I would add as a possible lineup change,

Don't do an XL883N,
but keep the XL883L

Since not everybody likes the "Retro Blacked Out" look, it would be nice to offer a low bike w/ a standard look.

The L is a leader bike for H-D anyway, a gateway into the "Harley Lifestyle" that is affordable and easy to handle for beginner and shorter riders alike.


Yeah, but really the only differences between the L and base are:

seat, bars, shocks, fork springs, kickstand, tank logo right?

and for this Harley charges $400.

So I GUESS they don't HAVE to eliminate the 883L - but a dealer could certainly drop a stock model easily enough and cheaply enough for a customer.

I'm just looking at sales numbers, GUESSING that XL forum users are a representative sample - and the Lows were by far the lowest sales figures...

:dunno

The generalizations I imposed were that... generalizations, I didn't say every old sportster fan has a custom. I was just saying you don't usually see a new biker, or previous superbike owner going out and buying a C. You mostly find experienced riders etc buying them becuase they like the look of the chrome and the have the money to afford it. They either buy the C's or they'll go to the BT. again just a GENERALIZATION, I'm not saying everyone does this.
Personally, If I had the money, and it wasn't going to be a daily driver it would be a BT for me. If i had the funds id have one of each but it don't.

The generalizations I imposed were that... generalizations, I didn't say every old sportster fan has a custom. I was just saying you don't usually see a new biker, or previous superbike owner going out and buying a C. You mostly find experienced riders etc buying them becuase they like the look of the chrome and the have the money to afford it. They either buy the C's or they'll go to the BT. again just a GENERALIZATION, I'm not saying everyone does this.
Personally, If I had the money, and it wasn't going to be a daily driver it would be a BT for me. If i had the funds id have one of each but it don't.

I'm not saying not to make generalizations - as that's the essence of marketing - identifying trends and selling products to best fit them.

That said, I disagree whole-heartedly with your analysis of C's.

Personally until the N came along I'd have said I saw more Newbies on C's than any other Sporty. And that's true of the majority of PA guys I've gotten together to ride with (that's not a dig, just an analysis).

Those guys decided they wanted a Harley and ran out to get the nicest one they could in the price range/size they wanted - and it was the C. They wanted forward controls and some bling... In essence I would bet that for the same money many would have taken a BT instead - because the look and features they wanted were more a match of them than for the traditional Sporty. Hell, I think that's why the whole C sub-model came about in the first place.

In contrast the longer-time riders who decide upon a Sporty are doing so more for the size and manueverability. Though there are certainly exceptions who want the C or forward controls etc, the function of the 1200R or the look of the 1200N is what draws them. And if they wanted the more laid back riding position, most of them would have just gotten a BT.

Now I could be wrong, and just coloring this perspective from my own biases, but I think about one XL forum NJ run from last year and all the different people who showed.

On the particular run I'm thinking about there was maybe only one 1200R - and that guy had a full face helmet and a full kit - leather jacket and riding pants.

There were BUNCHES of C models - and most of those guys had half-shells and apes and, MAYBE riding jackets (no armored or leather pants).

There were a couple of Lows or base models, almost all with newer and shorter riders.

From a marketing standpoint I think the C saved the Sportster. The lack of range as well as the lack of a modern look was a huge draw back to the peanut tank. The Nightster changed things with a new style but before that I would put the numbers at over 1/3 of Rubbermount owners that wouldn't have bought a Sporty without the 4.5 gallon tank. I don't think the Low would have been as popular with a peanut and I think the diehard defendants of the Roadster are the guys defending the peanut tank that is fast becoming a thing of the past.

I think even the Nightster will be a hard sell in a couple years simply because no one want to be the guy that has to stop every 100 miles for gas.

I guess it might be my business marketing background that makes me analyze like this. and maybe from what i have seen here in Halifax NS, but i know with my dealer it's almost impossible to get the 883, nightster, and the roadster in ( i was lucky i spoke for mine the day they found out it was comming in) but as for the L's and the C's they still have a couple '08's in since before xmas and theyre not moving. Maybe it depends on the scene in the area etc.

It really depends a lot on what is being produced as well as what the dealer orders.

From a marketing standpoint I think the C saved the Sportster. The lack of range as well as the lack of a modern look was a huge draw back to the peanut tank. The Nightster changed things with a new style but before that I would put the numbers at over 1/3 of Rubbermount owners that wouldn't have bought a Sporty without the 4.5 gallon tank. I don't think the Low would have been as popular with a peanut and I think the diehard defendants of the Roadster are the guys defending the peanut tank that is fast becoming a thing of the past.

I think even the Nightster will be a hard sell in a couple years simply because no one want to be the guy that has to stop every 100 miles for gas.

Well, yes and no -

I think the C did help overall Sportster sales buy giving the forward control crowd something a little blingly with more interest in the Sporty - but that was in the late 90s BEFORE IT GOT a bigger tank.

I think the good press that the Sportys got with the dawn of the rubbermount did as much to attract buyers as the larger tank on the C. It refined the overall character of the motorcycle enough to make it an honest competitor with other naked standards out there.

Keep in mind that an even bigger success than the C models is the N, which people are flocking too regardless of the smaller peanut tank.

I guess it might be my business marketing background that makes me analyze like this. and maybe from what i have seen here in Halifax NS, but i know with my dealer it's almost impossible to get the 883, nightster, and the roadster in ( i was lucky i spoke for mine the day they found out it was comming in) but as for the L's and the C's they still have a couple '08's in since before xmas and theyre not moving. Maybe it depends on the scene in the area etc.

However have you ever talked to your dealer about it.

Many dealers here in Eastern PA don't even ORDER 1200Rs UNLESS they have someone specifically interested in it. I know I only ever see Ls and Cs on Smaltz's floor, but they've told me that's on purpose cause they sell so much better.

So don't assume just because they're not on the floor it's because they've sold out.

Many dealers here in Eastern PA don't even ORDER 1200Rs UNLESS they have someone specifically interested in it. I know I only ever see Ls and Cs on Smaltz's floor, but they've told me that's on purpose cause they sell so much better.

So don't assume just because they're not on the floor it's because they've sold out.

When I bought my 07 1200R, this is the story I got from the dealers here in OKC. The dealer I bought from and a couple of others I talked to told me that they just don't get much demand at all for 1200Rs.

I think it would be a mistake to drop the XL883 bottom line model.I too, am not really interested in forward controls, or the worse ride and more limited cornering clearance of the lower models.The xl883 retains some of the "sporty" characteristics that the Sportster was born with.I'm sorry they dropped the XL883R too.I still like the option of buying the XL883 and riding it for what it is, but having the possibility of changing it into a 1200 if the owner thinks they need it.The parts (using dished pistons,reusing 883 heads,new cylinders, etc) can be bought for around $500.00.I saw an HD tech replace both cylinder base gaskets on a Sportster last week in about 4 hours.Granted, I couldn't do it that fast, but I could do the job myself.A coworker of mine just did his carb'd 883 and it worked out great.He basically made a 1200R out of his, because he put dual front discs on his 883.
But, with gas prices said to reach $4.00/gallon US, maybe the 883 with the better fuel economy would keep many of us happy as is.My 1984 XLX1000 stocker used to easily get in the 60+ mpg range.
I will get another Sportster.I am going to hold for a while too see if the XR1200 comes to the US before I decide on what to get. I may even decide to go with a 2003 due to the much lighter weight of the older model.

Jon

My dealer has C's. N's, R's and vanilla XL883's. They told me that the Sporty line does good for them.

As for the MOCO discontinuing the XL883....I can totally see that. They might replace it with a Water Cooled version that have been rumored for awhile. Lots of people diss the XL883 as being (fill in the blanks) compared to the rest of HD's lineup. If the 1200's stay air cooled, and the 883's get water cooling and a nice bump in HP and TQ, it could really split the line up nicely. The folks that arnnt so damn stuck in their idea of what a Harley I am sure would love to buy a baby V-Rod. Hell, I'd be interested.

yeah i've been in and out of my dealer for the past month almost daily. Anyways I have been looking at a used 883r/1200 conversion with $10000 plus in mods but wasn't approved for credit on a used bike so i went new. ordered the 1200r. couldn't get a nighster unless i wanted to wait until the end of the demo season and put my name on their demo bike. it would be a 3 month wait for a 883, but a L or C they could get in a week or so. they just happened to have a R on order. They said there wasn't much demand for them until everyone realized that it was going to be hard to get a N so they opted for the 1200r.

I may even decide to go with a 2003 due to the much lighter weight of the older model.


Personally I think 50 lbs means a lot on a chick - but not so much on a motorcycle ;)


As for the MOCO discontinuing the XL883....I can totally see that. They might replace it with a Water Cooled version that have been rumored for awhile.

Not on your life - and even if they did have a water-cooled version in the works (keep in mind that most of the rumors were based on some idiot's interpretation of seeing an XR1200 test mule and thinking it looked Vrodish) it won't happen until at least 2010 (that's the closest thing to insider info I've gotten out of any employees - i.e. that something WILL change for 2010 with regards to Sportys and some will like it and some will not). But even IF it did, they wouldn't JUST do it for one model, like JUST the base 883 - it would be either ALL 883s or the whole darn platform (all Sportys).



Lots of people diss the XL883 as being (fill in the blanks) compared to the rest of HD's lineup. If the 1200's stay air cooled, and the 883's get water cooling and a nice bump in HP and TQ, it could really split the line up nicely. The folks that arnnt so damn stuck in their idea of what a Harley I am sure would love to buy a baby V-Rod. Hell, I'd be interested.

Again, some people may dis the 883s, but it certainly doesn't hurt their sales figures, which are based on $$$ not performance. That said, IF they made the 883s that much quicker, then they'd start to canibalize sales of the 1200s on which they are making more $$ so I don't think they'd want to go that way.

Kev

...I don't think the Low would have been as popular with a peanut and I think the diehard defendants of the Roadster are the guys defending the peanut tank that is fast becoming a thing of the past.

I think even the Nightster will be a hard sell in a couple years simply because no one want to be the guy that has to stop every 100 miles for gas.

That's a pretty bold statement Vegas. Pretty bold...

If HD gets rid of the peanut tank on the Sportster, they may as well merge with Honda, roll out the all new Sassy Pink Series of bikes, and ship production down to Mexico. Why not burn as many bridges with your customers as possible?

That's a pretty bold statement Vegas. Pretty bold...

If HD gets rid of the peanut tank on the Sportster, they may as well merge with Honda, roll out the all new Sassy Pink Series of bikes, and ship production down to Mexico. Why not burn as many bridges with your customers as possible?

Pssst..... take a look around buddy.:shhhh

In regard to tank size, I ride with a guy with a 92 Heritage softail and another with a custom chopper and both of them run out of fuel faster than my 883 with a 3.3 gallon tank. The XR1200 has, I believe, a true peanut tank of 2.2 gallons. Really, the range has not been that big of an inconvenience and yes, a big reason for me buying the 883 was the tank itself.

That's a pretty bold statement Vegas. Pretty bold...

If HD gets rid of the peanut tank on the Sportster, they may as well merge with Honda, roll out the all new Sassy Pink Series of bikes, and ship production down to Mexico. Why not burn as many bridges with your customers as possible?

Take a look at the current line up. 7 bikes, 4 have a larger tank including the 1200R. This is from only 2 bikes when the rubbermount started. I'm just watching a trend here.

I think the reason Europe has the 883R and the XR1200 is because they don't have as much highway and don't need the range that Americans want. A larger percent of their roads are urban. In the Southwest, I have a hard time planning a ride if I know someone will be riding with a 3.3 gallon tank. I had to adjust fuel stops all the way to Sturgis and came within 10 miles (10 nailbiting miles for me) of having to go the long way around a shortcut because RoadChick was with me on her Nightster.

Take a look at the current line up. 7 bikes, 4 have a larger tank including the 1200R. This is from only 2 bikes when the rubbermount started. I'm just watching a trend here.

I think the reason Europe has the 883R and the XR1200 is because they don't have as much highway and don't need the range that Americans want. A larger percent of their roads are urban. In the Southwest, I have a hard time planning a ride if I know someone will be riding with a 3.3 gallon tank. I had to adjust fuel stops all the way to Sturgis and came within 10 miles (10 nailbiting miles for me) of having to go the long way around a shortcut because RoadChick was with me on her Nightster.


How many miles do you figure for a 3.3?

I've gone 165 without hitting reserve, and feel comfortable with 140.

(I also really fill the tank up...............)

I'm one of those diehard peanut tank fans.In my opinion the 1200 roadster died when they axed the peanut.

I figured that the 1200R would go once the XR1200 showed up anyway. It will be a shame to see it go. IMO, the 1200R is the last traditional style motorcycle that HD builds. It doesn't seem to be very popular around central Iowa. I have never been able to find one at any of the three dealerships close to Des Moines....

Hi Aloysius,
I'm from Montreal. There are 4 or 5 dealers within about 60 miles of here.
None of them has had a 1200R in the last 2 years. I got mine 3 years ago
and haven't really seen any on the showroom floor since then.
Only one dealer carried the 1200R back then. Now they even don't.
I don't know what it is. Folks say it the best of this and that and yet,
very few are actually sold. I wonder what the sales numbers actually are.
I've got my yellow pearl '05 1200R. You are so right...
'the 1200R is the last traditional style motorcycle that HD builds.'

How many miles do you figure for a 3.3?

I've gone 165 without hitting reserve, and feel comfortable with 140.

(I also really fill the tank up...............)

I usually won't push 130 cause some guys get on theirs or have upgrades and I am at fault if I set the ride up and a bike runs out on the way. With RC I think we were closer to 155 miles but we were riding mostly 55 MPH back highways with no wind or hills. 165 must be some conservative driving. After Stage I, the way I ride I hit reserve before 170 on a 4.5.

The only bike I've had almost run out of gas was a new RK and that was because he was watching his fuel gage instead of mileage and didn't fuel up at a scheduled gas stop. "That last half a tank just dropped like a rock." Ideally I won't go over 120 between gas for two reasons. Some people aren't comfortable doing it because they never watch mileage and don't realize what their range is and even though I specify to show up with a full tank and meet next to a gas station, some guys still won't fill up thinking their half tank will be fine.

There is some riding out at the West end of the Grand Canyon that I would love to take a group on but gas stations are very sparse and I know some bikes couldn't make it with out carrying extra gas.


As for the Nightster, I just found this thread a couple lines down. Guess even some N owners want more range.

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=181569

I'm one of those diehard peanut tank fans.In my opinion the 1200 roadster died when they axed the peanut.

I couldn't agree more.

I couldn't agree more.


+1 they might have made a larger peanut. I don't care for the bulbous tank look on the new R model.

+1 they might have made a larger peanut. I don't care for the bulbous tank look on the new R model.

+2

Black and White, it just looks right: Mike :tour

The paint scheme on the new roadster is awful. Looks like something Austin Powers would ride.

The paint scheme on the new roadster is awful. Looks like something Austin Powers would ride.

Subjective I know, but I love the paint job and the big tank. Sexiest thing in the line... except maybe the N. :laugh

Seriously, as soon as I saw the '08 R it was like a breath of fresh air from Harley, as if they suddenly remembered what a motorcycle was supposed to be.

If it wasn't for the new 1200R (and the N after I started thinking about the R), I wouldn't have looked twice at Harley; and I suspect I'm not alone.

It's one of the few bikes Harley makes that reaches out and touches a broader audience. Foolhardy to let that go (if it's true...).

I have an 08 1200 c for me its the only sportster i would buy for 1 im 6'2" and mid controls dont work for me so thats 1 thing less I have to change. I dont care about chrome but Im cool with it meaning it wasnt a factor in my purchase. The large tank for me was what sealed the deal. Yes and everyone will probally hate me for this if I could have afforded it I probally would've gotten a BT or night rod special but the 1200c seemed to fit just fine. My next purchase will probally be a Dyna. I hope I dont get kicked otta the forum for that lol

I...... 165 must be some conservative driving.



The last 50 miles were very very conservative...........

(I was being passed by old farm trucks)


There wasn't any gas where I expected it (you would think there would be something where a state hwy intersects a Interstate (a state hwy that shows up on the state map, not just a county map))

Now I'll admit there was probably gas closer, but I had no idea which way it would have been, so I kept going in the direction of the major city................

I actually think they axed the best looking model in the 883R & I regret not getting 1 when I was buying 1 but I'm very happy with my 883c & the forward controls were the reason I didn't get the R. I don't find them comfortable,nor do I find rockets comfy either.
So the line up according to this guy will be the
883L
883C
1200N
1200C
do you really think HD is only going to offer 2 models of each size of Sportster? It doesn't matter to me I got mine :p

The XR1200 has, I believe, a true peanut tank of 2.2 gallons.

No, any preliminary info I've seen on it suggests a 3.3... but we'll see.

Take a look at the current line up. 7 bikes, 4 have a larger tank including the 1200R. This is from only 2 bikes when the rubbermount started. I'm just watching a trend here.


Actually that's a pretty short trend - you really don't have enough years to make a pattern



I think the reason Europe has the 883R and the XR1200 is because they don't have as much highway and don't need the range that Americans want. A larger percent of their roads are urban.

Issues with fuel range in the American Southwest notwithstanding - the reason Europe got the 883R and XR1200 has NOTHING to do with fuel capacity and everything to do witht he chassis and function over form.


Folks say it the best of this and that and yet,
very few are actually sold. I wonder what the sales numbers actually are.
I've got my yellow pearl '05 1200R.

Simple, see my last reply. The 1200R is more FUNCTION over form and everytime Harley has tried that (XLCR, XR1000, 1200S, FXDX, Street Rod) it has been a sales flop compared to other models.



As for the Nightster, I just found this thread a couple lines down. Guess even some N owners want more range.

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=181569

So what, that's been going on since the 2.2 gal tanks of the early 90s... SOME percentage of people have always added a larger tank.

The paint scheme on the new roadster is awful. Looks like something Austin Powers would ride.

Actually, it makes it look like a Triumph - that's not all bad, but I'm not in love with the tank scallops.


do you really think HD is only going to offer 2 models of each size of Sportster? It doesn't matter to me I got mine :p

No, but for the record that's what they did from like 1960-82 ish ... and even from then until 2004 or 05 they only offered as many as 3 models in a given size... They never had so many Sportster models until 2006 really...

Actually, it makes it look like a Triumph - that's not all bad, but I'm not in love with the tank scallops.


Bingo – the 1200R, in its current incarnation is the only thing in the line that can compete with the Bonneville.

Sales numbers are not the only reason to make product decisions. There are strategic competitive and broader market considerations. The R may very well sell less compared to the C, but that’s not important. What IS important is that Harley have something to position vs. Triumph. The N kind of fits, but it’s too specialized and has a narrow target. None of the other XLs do the trick. The 1200R is the only real “retro-standard” in the line.

The 1200R is an investment in the market – the retro-standard shows every sign of booming in the coming 24 months, industry wide (again, Honda, Guzzi, Yamaha, all have announced entries that directly challenge the Bonny). It’s the only bike they have that can attract retro-standard buyers to Harley.

If they dump it – they become the cruiser company again ( they keep forcing the XL into cruiser shapes, C, L, etc....) – which is fine, except they can be so much more.

+2

Black and White, it just looks right: Mike :tour

+3 glad I bought mine when I did :tour

Actually from 1958 -1995 there were only up to 4 Sportster models offered each year. Most of those years the smaller engine models out numbered the bigger ones. This changed in 1996 when the 1200's offered 3 models and the 883's two. Since then they have kept adding different models up to 9 in 2007 if I remember right.

I don't understand the 1200R as being the only real “retro-standard” in the line.

The blacked out engine, dual discs, rubber mount engine, big tank -- how is that more "retro" than a Xl883 or a 1200N? Just askin?

If you look at the Bonneville as the basis for the retro standard market today (and who wouldn't), then both the XL883 and the 1200N miss the mark. Again, I concede the N is close, but the slammed suspension and chopped fenders make it generally impractical by comparison. The 883 is close too, but pound for pound, the Bonny beats the snot out of it. At best, you get parity.

It's not until you get to the latest 1200R (the blacked out engine even matches the Bonneville Black scheme) that Harley pulls ahead and might draw potential Bonny buyers.

Don't get me wrong, I was a potential Bonny buyer and the N drew me away, but I propose that the R would do that more often, and with a broader range of buyers than the N (as I said, the R got me looking in the first place).

From a pure marketing perspective I wouldn't mind if the 883's and the C went away leaving only the 1200N and 1200R in the XL line. Then they could push a lowering kit for those shorties out there to replace the Ls and call it done.

Then they could drive entry Harley folks to the Dynas (if you want a cruiser, get a cruiser - not a standard) and use the newly lean XL (and XR) line to pull in riders from other brands. That would leave plenty of room to respond to the market as it changes, and still have a solid "entry level" line.

That would also leave them room to (gasp) make a real beginners bike for under 7k; say a decent 500-600cc lightweight cruiser that comes in around 350lbs. But now I'm just dreaming...

Bingo – the 1200R, in its current incarnation is the only thing in the line that can compete with the Bonneville.

The 1200R is an investment in the market – the retro-standard shows every sign of booming in the coming 24 months, industry wide (again, Honda, Guzzi, Yamaha, all have announced entries that directly challenge the Bonny). It’s the only bike they have that can attract retro-standard buyers to Harley.

If they dump it – they become the cruiser company again ( they keep forcing the XL into cruiser shapes, C, L, etc....) – which is fine, except they can be so much more.

First off - no the 1200R is NOT the only thing that can compete with a Bonneville - not in performance or in styling.

The 883, the 883L, the 1200L and 1200N all retain midmounts and pretty naked standard classic looks. I don't think you can pigeonhole those bikes are cruisers just because of ride height.

And I don't THINK they'd drop the 1200R without replacing it (i.e. XR1200).



I don't understand the 1200R as being the only real “retro-standard” in the line.

The blacked out engine, dual discs, rubber mount engine, big tank -- how is that more "retro" than a Xl883 or a 1200N? Just askin?

Agreed - I don't agree with the GrumpyYote's premise here.

If you look at the Bonneville as the basis for the retro standard market today (and who wouldn't), then both the XL883 and the 1200N miss the mark. Again, I concede the N is close, but the slammed suspension and chopped fenders make it generally impractical by comparison. The 883 is close too, but pound for pound, the Bonny beats the snot out of it. At best, you get parity.


WHO WOULDN'T? Me for instance. YES the Bonnie beats the 883 in a standing quarter, but that's a silly comparison for those bikes. If you want to look at what FORMED the retro-standard market it was HARLEY hands down. SURE the Bonneville has done well, but the Sporty was selling on classic lines as a naked standard for a decade before these neo-Bonnies came to be.

And slammed suspensions or chopped fenders don't in and or themselves make a bike impractical - not to mention they are things which are easily changed.



It's not until you get to the latest 1200R (the blacked out engine even matches the Bonneville Black scheme) that Harley pulls ahead and might draw potential Bonny buyers.


I've NEARLY bought a neo-Bonnie THREE TIMES NOW - but A Guzzi won out the first time, and 2 Sportys won out the other two times (even though they were L models) - kinda hurts your argument no?

PLUS - think about this - what's TOTAL Triumph sales in the US, something like 10-15k models per YEAR? IS it as high as 20k?

Harley has been selling 60-80k Sportys/year since the intro of the rubbermounts. Bonnies aren't even making it to the starting gate when measured that way.



From a pure marketing perspective I wouldn't mind if the 883's and the C went away leaving only the 1200N and 1200R in the XL line. Then they could push a lowering kit for those shorties out there to replace the Ls and call it done.

Then they could drive entry Harley folks to the Dynas (if you want a cruiser, get a cruiser - not a standard) and use the newly lean XL (and XR) line to pull in riders from other brands. That would leave plenty of room to respond to the market as it changes, and still have a solid "entry level" line.

That would also leave them room to (gasp) make a real beginners bike for under 7k; say a decent 500-600cc lightweight cruiser that comes in around 350lbs. But now I'm just dreaming...

I don't completely disagree with you here - but again - the Cs are obviously popular - Harley knows the exact figures and I trust they're making the right decision BECAUSE of those figures (and I guess that means they aren't going anywhere).

Kev

The first thing to remember is that Harley is in business to make money. They will produce something as long as it sells.

I never thought of calling a Sportster retro. Only because they haven't changed. You can go back continuously 50 years and see the same style each year. Just like a Jeep. No matter what you call it it's still a Jeep that has been around for 60+ years.

The new Bonnie (which I do like) was made to look like an old Bonnie. You can't see an 94 Bonnie because they didn't make one.

I like the fact Harley provides the different models like the N and C. I know people that can't visualize or can't wrench on their own bike. So for these people it nice because they can walk out with what they like. Harley has always looked at current trends and provided models for the most part their customers like. They don't react as fast as we would like most of the time but they try.

While we not agree with model or styling changes they change the line to what sells.

For the record Kev, I wasn’t referring to speed when I suggested the Bonny “beat the snot” out of the 883, I was referring to general appeal, and handling too – speed is only part of it.

The L’s and the N’s have midmounts sure, but the clearance, seats, and bars makes them much closer to a cruiser than a standard. To me, “standard” is about the whole ergo/handling package, not just controls.

There is no question that Harley sells more Sporties than Triumph sells Bonnies. The question in my mind is “do they sell them to the same market”? Except for the 1200R and possibly the N, I think the answer is no (again, the vast majority of XL buyers want a Harley and all it represents – not a standard, so you have to factor them out).

If I had a magic survey machine, and could quiz potential buyers of exclusively “retro-standards” my guess is the Bonny line would lead the XL by a wide margin. The R and the N are the only two in the line with the power to pull most standard buyers (you and I are far from the typical standard buyers Kev – and we’re hardly a valid barometer for the market) away from the Triumph.

The 1200R fit the bill more because it matches the Bonnie’s potential as a platform. In my opinion, it’s a baseline, barebones bike with parity to the Bonnevile Black in most ways, and a better powerplant (and a couple of goodies). The rest of the XL line can’t even match the handing and range without modification.

It’s all an academic exercise to me in marketing – I honestly don’t care, but it would be a shame to see the 1200R go, when I see it as a cornerstone for a whole market segment.

One note on the XR though – it’s not a good replacement for the 1200R in my opinion. If we use the 1200R as a competitor for the Bonneville Black base model, then the XR1200 is more of a Thruxton killer. Plenty of room for both models IMO.

I hear what you're saying but still don't buy all of it because well, as I already said we've bought 2 L models instead of 2 Bonnies - and I don't think we make a bad barometer because we're EXACTLY the type of people who cross-shop those bikes (i.e. the minority). I think the majority aren't gonna cross shop em ANYWAY - so why chase the small numbers?

Then again, as much as I rag on the cornering clearance of the Ls (and Ns) I think it's easy to forget that it doesn't limit them THAT much in real world conditions.

And I personally don't think that buckhorns and mid mounts don't amount to apes and forwards...

...personally I think to be a "cruiser" you kinda HAVE to have forwards... but that's just me.

One reason why there is no competitor for the Bonnie Black by your analysis is that there is no more 883R - which was so much a niche bike in the US that they're not bothering to try and sell them anymore - again, that should tell you something.

But the XR1200 can be the Thruxton killer - and if they'd put a version of the Short Stroke Buell motor in a say, XR900 then we'd have our Bonnie-Black/T100 killer no?

But then we'd be back to chasing small numbers I'm afraid. :(

Something I forgot to mention earlier (I think) - you'd said something about other manufacturers going after this market segment - but honestly, I don't really see that.

Guzzi announced the V7, but guess what, they think they'd need to sell it for $10.9k here - what a freakin' joke - that's a B750/N750 with different bodywork - and those are currently priced at $7990, so I don't see that bike making these shores anytime soon.

If you look at the Bonneville as the basis for the retro standard market today (and who wouldn't), then both the XL883 and the 1200N miss the mark. Again, I concede the N is close, but the slammed suspension and chopped fenders make it generally impractical by comparison. The 883 is close too, but pound for pound, the Bonny beats the snot out of it. At best, you get parity.

It's not until you get to the latest 1200R (the blacked out engine even matches the Bonneville Black scheme) that Harley pulls ahead and might draw potential Bonny buyers.

Don't get me wrong, I was a potential Bonny buyer and the N drew me away, but I propose that the R would do that more often, and with a broader range of buyers than the N (as I said, the R got me looking in the first place).

From a pure marketing perspective I wouldn't mind if the 883's and the C went away leaving only the 1200N and 1200R in the XL line. Then they could push a lowering kit for those shorties out there to replace the Ls and call it done.

Then they could drive entry Harley folks to the Dynas (if you want a cruiser, get a cruiser - not a standard) and use the newly lean XL (and XR) line to pull in riders from other brands. That would leave plenty of room to respond to the market as it changes, and still have a solid "entry level" line.

That would also leave them room to (gasp) make a real beginners bike for under 7k; say a decent 500-600cc lightweight cruiser that comes in around 350lbs. But now I'm just dreaming...

I actually don't and never have,I think the Bonnie or Triumphs are an ugly bike I would never consider and how can a 883 Sportster not be considered a retro style,the bike has been around since 1957? Seriously if they did away with the 883 I know some people would be riding rice. Hell Dawn loved her Sportster but liked holding up my Shadow better.I agree that HD could use a 500-600 size bike to pull from the Jap bikes entry level cruisers and give the consumer a "real" starter bike. Go see how many 600-750cc Jap cruisers are sold? The Shadow site I'd say 75% are on a 750 or 600.The 883 offers alot actually like better gas mileage,use of a lower grade gas if wanted,lower insurance rates,not all the chrome,lower bike. Harley has the Buell to atract the Sportbike crowd. No need to ditch the whole 883 line to pray they would like a 1200 & be forced into a Dyna $$ for entry level?:doh

i heard a rumor that they're not gonna sell bikes with the knucklehead motor any more.

Reminds me of this rumor:

http://www.xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=25222&highlight=april+rumor


;)

I like the fact Harley provides the different models like the N and C. I know people that can't visualize or can't wrench on their own bike. So for these people it nice because they can walk out with what they like. Harley has always looked at current trends and provided models for the most part their customers like. They don't react as fast as we would like most of the time but they try.

The 1200C and 1200N were developed for the same reason the 1200R and 1200L were. Do you think people only buy a C or N because they can't work on them or visualize what they like? The same can be said for a R or a L. People wanted a lower bike, HD responded with the L (I think women were the target). Some people liked the looks of the the blacked out engine of the night train or wanted a more sport tuned suspension and HD responded with the R. People bought them because they already had some of the things on them they wanted. So those that bought a R or L could walk out with what they like too. It has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of ones ability to work on their own bike or their inability to visualize. It has everything to do with HD trying to meet their customers wants and needs.

Hi Kev,
Just for the record, A Norton Commando keeps my Sporty
company in the garage. When I got my yellow 1200R,
the salesman mentioned that the R models appealed
to those who used to ride British machinery.
This was BEFORE I told the guy I also had a Norton.
There is something about the R that causes comparisons
with the Brit stuff... perhaps the traditional no-frills styling.
Form following function.

Considering the sales volume, and the fact that there are extremely few Triumph dealers compared to H-D dealers, I really don't think Harley is worried about loosing sales to Triumph.

You are missing the tactic - It's not about losing sales to Triumph today. It's about taking the momentum and sales from Triumph.

Sure Harley outsells them now, but will they always? What happens if everyone wants retro standards next season and the 883 and the R are gone? Why ignore them if you can fill the same demand? It's like leaving money on the table.

That's what market position is all about. Strategic long term positioning, not just sales today. Think of it as insurance against trends that may hurt if you (as a company) are not ready for it. Harley needs to watch dropping bikes that leave the door open for competition to succeed in the space.

Again, the 1200R is that bike IMO.

Kev had a great point though - I may be over-estimating the demand for what I called "retro-standards". If that's the case, then the door Harley leaves open may not be a big deal. To my nose though (with several majors entering the fray) it smells like a big trend - and not something to ignore.

The "modern-retro" bike is definitely a burgeoning market. I bought in with an XL1200N against a Bonneville T100. My previous bike was a Suzuki GS550. I love standards, even though the N isn't exactly standard.

These bikes appeal to people that aren't the typical doo-rag and chaps crowd. They seem smarter. Triumph is really making that connection in their marketing; the essentially say "I am too cool to have to be tough." And they are mostly right. The standard drops the pretense of being a biker and lets you ride a motorcycle.

I don't feel that these special models are for people with no vision; I have vision. Fortunately for me, the N is almost what is in my head. My alternate plan was to get an 883 and essentially turn it into a Nightster. In this case a few steps were shaved off and I can ride instead of wrench. I am completely capable of doing anything that needed to be done, but I would prefer not to.

I wish the Sportster line was pushed a little more by the dealers. Every HD sales person that I talked to has said something to the effect of, "I love selling Sportsters because I know I'll sell a big twin in a year." This was after telling them point blank that the Sportster was the only HD model that I have any attraction to. I also so a woman that was completely enamored with a 1200C; the drool was on the cusp of her lip. She asked a sales person what model it was. When he said "Sportster" she grimaced, said, "Oh, one of those," and walked away. They could do themselves a big favor by trying to eradicate the small, girly, wussy, aspect of the Sportster and push it as a great standard bike. It won't make you a hard ass. It won't put doo-rags on your head and flash tattoos on your arms. It's a motorcylce. A capable, fun way to get around or lose yourself for a while.

I don't think the C and N are only for poeple without vision and wrenching abilities. I'm sorry I didn't finish the total thought. It's just when Harley introduces a new model you hear people saying all they had to do was add this or paint that. For some it's not that easy or they can't afford to have it done.

It's just for some people they give them more options than two models and the accessories catalog. Everyone has one or two (some more) ideas on what a Harley should look like.

We have a guy here where I work that was showing me pics of bikes he built. He bought an 883C and said that he is leaving it stock. It works for him.

You lost me with the generalizations - what's the age of that younger generation vs. the older guys and gals.

Cause I think I've been doing this for years, and I'm a die hard sportster fan - having bought 4 new ones in my life - but I've never (nor will I likely EVER) buy a C model - I don't see anything particularly comfortable about forwards... or lowered rear suspensions - no thanks...

Kev

Kev, you just need a few more years. Wait until the arthritis starts acting up and your knees start giving out on you. :D

Hi Kev,
Just for the record, A Norton Commando keeps my Sporty
company in the garage. When I got my yellow 1200R,
the salesman mentioned that the R models appealed
to those who used to ride British machinery.
This was BEFORE I told the guy I also had a Norton.
There is something about the R that causes comparisons
with the Brit stuff... perhaps the traditional no-frills styling.
Form following function.

It's a rare Harley salesman that cares about a sporty, nevermind knows the bikes or his customers enough to pick up on that.

I'm not saying it's not true to an extent - Obviously people who choose Triumphs are looking for a blend of form and function that is more toward the function scale than many (most?) Harley buyers...


You are missing the tactic - It's not about losing sales to Triumph today. It's about taking the momentum and sales from Triumph.

<snip>

Kev had a great point though - I may be over-estimating the demand for what I called "retro-standards". If that's the case, then the door Harley leaves open may not be a big deal. To my nose though (with several majors entering the fray) it smells like a big trend - and not something to ignore.

I guess it comes down to costs - return on investment - does it COST Harley anything to keep producing lower selling models on the same platform as other models??? I don't have that answer, but I hope it doesn't.

I mean, they drop and add BT models from time-to-time, but I'm thinking that's balancing capacity of the plant and trying to keep things fresh appealing to new/different styles to attract new/different owners.

There's just so much they can do with the Sporty - and unless they're gonna throw a Springer front end on one or ??? then I hope there is still room in the line for the 1200R (or the XR1200)....

The "modern-retro" bike is definitely a burgeoning market. I bought in with an XL1200N against a Bonneville T100.

<snip>

I also so a woman that was completely enamored with a 1200C; the drool was on the cusp of her lip. She asked a sales person what model it was. When he said "Sportster" she grimaced, said, "Oh, one of those," and walked away. They could do themselves a big favor by trying to eradicate the small, girly, wussy, aspect of the Sportster and push it as a great standard bike. It won't make you a hard ass. It won't put doo-rags on your head and flash tattoos on your arms. It's a motorcylce. A capable, fun way to get around or lose yourself for a while.

Well, there's another one who bought form over function (that's NOT a criticism, just demonstrating that it's not always the function that wins out in that Triumph vs. Harley argument).

As for that that aspect of the Sportster (image) that's a double-edged sword, because I'm sure they make more on BTs and would rather sell them if they had to just sell one bike. On the flip side, what a shame that the woman in question was so misguided... Her loss.

Kev, you just need a few more years. Wait until the arthritis starts acting up and your knees start giving out on you. :D

LOL - didn't you read about my MCL saga the past few months - no way man - I Yam What I YAm...

Not that anyone asked or cares, but count me as another person who initially wanted a triumph. It was actually the Speedmaster that made me think, "Okay, it's time to get a motorcycle." As I did more research I feel in love with 883R but ended up with the 1200R. (Which I plan to black out to the point of the 883R) I never really thought about it before, but I guess I am a retro-standard guy.

And for what it's worth, I don't know that I would have ended up with what I did if it didn't have the peanut tank. By the way, I just noticed that the inside edge of the scallop on the 08 1200R tank sure looks like a peanut silhouette. Think that's some designer's last ditch defiance against the powers that be?

Not that anyone asked or cares, but count me as another person who initially wanted a triumph. It was actually the Speedmaster that made me think, "Okay, it's time to get a motorcycle." As I did more research I feel in love with 883R but ended up with the 1200R. (Which I plan to black out to the point of the 883R) I never really thought about it before, but I guess I am a retro-standard guy.

And for what it's worth, I don't know that I would have ended up with what I did if it didn't have the peanut tank. By the way, I just noticed that the inside edge of the scallop on the 08 1200R tank sure looks like a peanut silhouette. Think that's some designer's last ditch defiance against the powers that be?

Actually I think a bunch of us care ;) - this is a fun discussion and I don't know that any of us have the real answers, but it's nice to banter about.

I actually find it ironic that you were looking at the forward controlled Speedmaster and went with a 12R because of the differences in riding position.

But I guess the cast wheels and dual discs of the Speedmaster must still appear on a function basis.

Honestly, that's one of the things that's keeping me off a Thruxton or T100 - I'd want cast wheels and a dual discs for sure and that's just NOT an option (not without swapping parts from say an Thunderbird or S3).

Kev

Actually I think a bunch of us care ;) - this is a fun discussion and I don't know that any of us have the real answers, but it's nice to banter about.

Yeah, this is a fun place all around. I enjoy the banter, I read a lot more than I contribute, but that's because I'm pretty new to street riding, which is probably why I feel compelled to write things like "not that anyone cares."

I actually find it ironic that you were looking at the forward controlled Speedmaster and went with a 12R because of the differences in riding position.

When I said I initially wanted a Speedmaster that means, as someone who wasn't involved or knowledgeable at all in street bikes, when I saw one on the internet, I got horny for one. It's when I went to look at one that I started to notice (and really become aware of for the first time) things like peg placement. It's also a lot bulkier than I had thought. I was also dead set on the black motor/trans. That's probably another reason that I hadn't been drawn to sportsters sooner, most that you see are either chrome or grey. Once I came across the 883R, that was pretty much it.

Funny, to me, the peanut looks great on the N, but crappy on the rest of the line (especially the last few years worth of horrible tank badges on the 883’s – yuck – they looked like bad 80’s beach wear). The new R tank is just right for the look of the 1200R - the fact that it's reminiscent of the Triumphs is no coincidence.

It is more than interesting to me that the Bonnie in one form or another was a big draw for a few of us – in fact getting several of us back into the idea of buying a bike. Then the Sporties drew us all for one reason or another. I wonder how many others are there that don’t get drawn away. The Bonnie line (yes Kev – even the America and the Speedy) are stiff competition for the sportie overall – and I’m not talking about sales (clearly Harley sells more). I’m talking about mindshare of potential entry buyers.

I had a Honda, I wanted to upgrade to a standard that (in priority order):

1) Had a strong history and deep character – I didn’t want an average bike in any way

2) Was not Japanese – only because they are common and usually lack #1 above (I loved my Honda – but the big 3 bore me to tears)

3) Was reasonably priced and relatively reliable – and also not too heavy or bloated

4) Could serve as a platform for creating the vision of the bike in my head over time

Triumph, Guzzi, and HD were the only ones left standing. And right up until the test drive of the N, the Bonny was in the lead. Because of Harley’s nasty reputation and the pseudo-religious arrogance of many Harley fans I was pretty reluctant to go HD. I know I’m not particularly unusual in my original Harley resistance. It’s a key weakness for the brand.

Earlier I said that Kev and I were not typical retro-standard buyers (Kev writes for the bike industry and is far more educated on motorcycles than the typical buyer – and I study markets and buying patterns for a large part of my living, so I’m far from an ideal customer, well of anything really), and as such not good barometers for the industry – I missed something crucial though.

What I missed was the (somewhat controversial) concept of the “influential buyer”. This is the guy that others defer to when making purchasing decisions. For example, I know little about HD televisions, but there is a cat I work with that everyone considers a real video-phile – so I asked his opinions on TVs, - I didn’t follow his advice exactly, but he helped influence my buying decisions. Sometimes it’s the guy who knows more than you – sometimes it’s just someone you see as “cool” or “savy”. That’s the basic impact of the influential buyer (by the way, there is a raging controversy on the subject of targeting specific influencers with marketing – I’m not talking about that – I’m just referring to the fact they exist) .

Kev and I are not ideal consumers, but at the risk of sounding arrogant, we are very likely influential on others buying decisions (personally, I found Kev’s posts and input more than helpful before I purchased, and I know my crowd asks my opinions on bikes – and other consumer goods - before they buy as well).

So where is this going (other than swollen head for Kev and another long-winded bore fest from me)?

So Kev and I are out there representing Harley for what that’s worth - but, I wonder how many Triumph buyers are key influencers in the bike industry. How many of those hot Bonnies (and variants) cruising around out there are the foundation for the next guy making a purchase decision. My theory (totally a gut feeling) is that because they are so distinctive and so “not sportbike / not Harley-Metric cruiser” that they will, pound for pound and over the long-haul, cause more folks to buy than the whole XL line. In time this could add up to significant losses of new/returning riders going with Harley. Killing the 1200R just gives that more momentum.

There is precendece for it by the way - the last time Triumph and Harley clashed, they used the same two models (Bonnie vs. Sportie)

When I said I initially wanted a Speedmaster that means, as someone who wasn't involved or knowledgeable at all in street bikes, when I saw one on the internet, I got horny for one.

At the end of the day that criteria probably makes up the lionshare of Harley's purchases (and perhaps a lot of other manufacturers - but I think less so on Japanese bikes, and I THINK with Triumph the split is down the middle).

It's the good old form vs. function argument.




I had a Honda, I wanted to upgrade to a standard that (in priority order):

1) Had a strong history and deep character – I didn’t want an average bike in any way

2) Was not Japanese – only because they are common and usually lack #1 above (I loved my Honda – but the big 3 bore me to tears)

3) Was reasonably priced and relatively reliable – and also not too heavy or bloated

<snip>

Triumph, Guzzi, and HD were the only ones left standing.

Funny you say that because before I got to the part where you said Guzzi I was thinking - DAMN Guzzi fits that bill perfectly... ;)



So Kev and I are out there representing Harley for what that’s worth - but, I wonder how many Triumph buyers are key influencers in the bike industry. How many of those hot Bonnies (and variants) cruising around out there are the foundation for the next guy making a purchase decision. My theory (totally a gut feeling) is that because they are so distinctive and so “not sportbike / not Harley-Metric cruiser” that they will, pound for pound and over the long-haul, cause more folks to buy than the whole XL line. In time this could add up to significant losses of new/returning riders going with Harley. Killing the 1200R just gives that more momentum.

There is precendece for it by the way - the last time Triumph and Harley clashed, they used the same two models (Bonnie vs. Sportie)

Well, I won't pretend to be as knowledgable as you about such things, BUT I'm not sure I agree.

I mean, I DO see what you're saying about the Bonnies being an alternative that will certainly attract buyers that might have otherwise bought a Sporty (for those reasons, no sport-bike, not "cruiser"). But it's deeper than that.

First - Harley dealer network - at good as the Triumph network is, it would probably take more than a decade of uncompromised success before it could start to compare to Harley's.

Second - Ease of Ownership - the options of dual discs and tubeless wheels and EFI and hydraulic lifters with belt drives all add up to an advantage in the maintenance area over the Bonnie. It's not going to mean the world to all people and some won't mind the differences, but I SUSPECT they're not the majority.

Third - America's unrivaled insecurity when it comes to SIZE - seriously, the 883 sells on price, and other manufacturers (like BMW) abandonded the "Cruiser" market because 1200ccs are too small. Now sure, this isn't the "cruiser" market PER SE (but don't fool yourself the C models, perhaps at least in styling the N models and definitely the America/Speedmaster draw from that demographic), but it certainly plays a part in the mindset of a lot of buyers. Until Triumph comes out with something a little bigger in the Bonnie, it will never be a REAL threat in this market.

(note - I'm fully aware of the 1700cc parallel twin MONSTER Bonnie that Triumph is testing right now, but THAT's just a caricature of the Bonnie or a Triumph "BT" - Bonnie in name only and not really part of this market).

Fourth - Resale value - SURE it's not what it once was (it once was MORE than MSRP, and for many years as much or close to it), but Harleys still hold a tremendous value (and are easy to sell).

Fifth - Accessories - NO BODY offers as many options from either the OEM or the aftermarket as Harleys - There's more and more available for Trumpets, but no where NEAR as much and as long as total worldwide annual Triumph production is a mere percentage (maybe 10%) of Harley's annual production, that's not going to change significantly.

Now all of this isn't to say that Harley should rest on it's laurels.

The Trumpets are not without their own advantages over the Sporty

They are:

- Lighter
- Quicker than the 883s
- Handle better
- Arguably stop better - it's at least close.

But it's been shown for decades that those things aren't enough to draw the lionshare of Harley buyers away. That's FUNCTION -

:dunno

I guess it comes down to costs - return on investment - does it COST Harley anything to keep producing lower selling models on the same platform as other models??? I don't have that answer, but I hope it doesn't.



I think it boils down to profit margin. The costs related to production (except for material costs) are likely the same for the cheaper models as they are for the pricier ones. Costs like overhead for management salaries, warehouse space, labor, freight, consumables used for production, etc. If the profit margin is the same, it doesn't make sense to eliminate models and potentially drive away customers.

Of course, eliminating Sportster models may be a good way to free up warehouse, production capacity and other resources in the KC plant that put toward Dyna production.

I'll chime in on the Bonnie vs Sportster purchase. My friend has an new Bonnie. He was new to motorcycles and asked me what bikes would fit the bill for him. He lives in Philadelphia so he has just about all dealers of every brand of motorcycles by him. Most 5 miles or less from his house.

After six months of looking, he had it narrowed down to Guzzi 750 Breva, 883 and Bonnie T100. He would ask me every day which one I would choose. I told him it's his decsion and none would be a bad choice. He figured I leaned towards the 883. Go figure. At that time the Sprotsters were getting to be more available but it was still hard to exactly what you wanted.

In the end he really liked the looks of the Bonnie. Also a dealer had a loaded demo with only 120 miles for dirt cheap. That sealed the deal and he got the Bonnie.

He still loves the bike. I like it to. It is a nice running machine and it does what you ask of it. For me I would still go for the Sportster. Primarly for all the reasons Kev listed above.

Which dealer did he go to, the one in Manyunk???

Which dealer did he go to, the one in Manyunk???

He bought the bike from L&D down in Dover, DE but he gets service at Manyunk.

At the end of the day that criteria probably makes up the lionshare of Harley's purchases (and perhaps a lot of other manufacturers - but I think less so on Japanese bikes, and I THINK with Triumph the split is down the middle).

It's the good old form vs. function argument.




Funny you say that because before I got to the part where you said Guzzi I was thinking - DAMN Guzzi fits that bill perfectly... ;)



Well, I won't pretend to be as knowledgable as you about such things, BUT I'm not sure I agree.

I mean, I DO see what you're saying about the Bonnies being an alternative that will certainly attract buyers that might have otherwise bought a Sporty (for those reasons, no sport-bike, not "cruiser"). But it's deeper than that.

First - Harley dealer network - at good as the Triumph network is, it would probably take more than a decade of uncompromised success before it could start to compare to Harley's.

Second - Ease of Ownership - the options of dual discs and tubeless wheels and EFI and hydraulic lifters with belt drives all add up to an advantage in the maintenance area over the Bonnie. It's not going to mean the world to all people and some won't mind the differences, but I SUSPECT they're not the majority.

Third - America's unrivaled insecurity when it comes to SIZE - seriously, the 883 sells on price, and other manufacturers (like BMW) abandonded the "Cruiser" market because 1200ccs are too small. Now sure, this isn't the "cruiser" market PER SE (but don't fool yourself the C models, perhaps at least in styling the N models and definitely the America/Speedmaster draw from that demographic), but it certainly plays a part in the mindset of a lot of buyers. Until Triumph comes out with something a little bigger in the Bonnie, it will never be a REAL threat in this market.

(note - I'm fully aware of the 1700cc parallel twin MONSTER Bonnie that Triumph is testing right now, but THAT's just a caricature of the Bonnie or a Triumph "BT" - Bonnie in name only and not really part of this market).

Fourth - Resale value - SURE it's not what it once was (it once was MORE than MSRP, and for many years as much or close to it), but Harleys still hold a tremendous value (and are easy to sell).

Fifth - Accessories - NO BODY offers as many options from either the OEM or the aftermarket as Harleys - There's more and more available for Trumpets, but no where NEAR as much and as long as total worldwide annual Triumph production is a mere percentage (maybe 10%) of Harley's annual production, that's not going to change significantly.

Now all of this isn't to say that Harley should rest on it's laurels.

The Trumpets are not without their own advantages over the Sporty

They are:

- Lighter
- Quicker than the 883s
- Handle better
- Arguably stop better - it's at least close.

But it's been shown for decades that those things aren't enough to draw the lionshare of Harley buyers away. That's FUNCTION -

:dunno

I totally agree (especially on dealer network - that's what cut Guzzi for me) – except for one major point…

I’m not talking about Harley fans – I’m talking about the segment of the market that wants a retro standard, but has no inherent attraction or loyalty (if not outright resistance) to Harley.

The heart of my premise is, I think the 1200R (and arguably the N) can pull those guys, and the rest of the line can’t.

I also think that it’s an important segment – though small – I’m suggesting that they will influence more sales in the long run. Leaving them to Triumph means they are unlikely to ever look at Harley again. And that means giving away all of that influence for the decade to come. Killing the R just gives free long term market traction to Triumph. I'm just suggesting Harley make them work for it :p

Leaving them to Triumph means they are unlikely to ever look at Harley again.

WHY?

I've left Harley for other brands and returned...

So have many people I've known.

Ironically that brings up the 12N again, as I know people who have gotten off of Triumphs, Guzzis and Suzukis to get one so far... some had Harleys before, some are first timers to the brand...

to add to kev and grumpy's argument:

i was on a honda ace 750 and thought i wanted a sabre because it was basically an ace with balls.

but then i fell in love with an 06 bonnie t-100.

the triumph dealer couldn't do a trade and i couldn't afford 2 payments (it was off season so there's no way to sell my honda outright)

i had teh itch to get on a new bike, wanted the t-100, couldn't get it, so i started thinking about other companies.

i hadn't even THOUGHT about HD for years.

the 1200R was retro enough and standard enough, plus part and dealer availability and willing to trade...

the 1200R was a good choice for me.

i still lust after a bonnie, but i NEEDED ;) a new bike and HD was able to deal.

My background is important to consider first. I've been a motorcyclist(note I didn't call myself a biker) for nearly 35 years. In that time period I've been a racer, and owned many metric brands of bikes, but never a Harley until 2007, at which time I finally had the opportunity to buy a new bike, and my choices were narrowed down to a Triumph Bonneville and an 883R Sportster. In the end, I went with the "R" and I'm extremely happy I did. BUT- IF there hadn't been an 883R or 1200R(as a 2nd choice), I WOULD HAVE Bought the Bonnie ! So I do fall into that niche, and I'm not brand loyal at all... and probably, the ONLY OTHER Harley product I might consider in the future- would be that mysterious and elusive creature- the XR1200 !

I totally agree (especially on dealer network - that's what cut Guzzi for me) – except for one major point…

I’m not talking about Harley fans – I’m talking about the segment of the market that wants a retro standard, but has no inherent attraction or loyalty (if not outright resistance) to Harley.

The heart of my premise is, I think the 1200R (and arguably the N) can pull those guys, and the rest of the line can’t.

I also think that it’s an important segment – though small – I’m suggesting that they will influence more sales in the long run. Leaving them to Triumph means they are unlikely to ever look at Harley again. And that means giving away all of that influence for the decade to come. Killing the R just gives free long term market traction to Triumph. I'm just suggesting Harley make them work for it :p

But, unless I'm reading Grumpy wrong, he seems to be saying/thinking that the XR1200 wouldn't suffice to fill the slot, and that they'd need BOTH the 1200R and the XR1200 or they'd loose sales to people like Triumph.

I disagree on that subtle point...

I think the XR1200 would fill the spot perfectly, and the vast majority of people who want a 12R would either be happy with it, or would go with a different Sporty model (N or ???).

Again I think the lineup should be

883
883N
883C
maybe XR900

1200N
1200C
XR1200


The base model for price point

the N models for both look and short people

the C models for those who want more of a cruiser

The XR models for those who want SPORT

Seriously, I'd prefer a short stroke XR900 over the XR1200 for several reasons: the XR1200 is not a racer, nor really that FAST A Bike, and it surely ain't no repli-Racer either, so the XR900 would do me just as well, and look the same, but give me a higher revving motor with lower piston speeds- which would increase engine life and cooling.

But just keeping ANY "R" would seem to suffice pleasing the old school- as I(like Harley MoCo) really don't think the XR models are really going to sell that well in the USA :(
But, unless I'm reading Grumpy wrong, he seems to be saying/thinking that the XR1200 wouldn't suffice to fill the slot, and that they'd need BOTH the 1200R and the XR1200 or they'd loose sales to people like Triumph.

I disagree on that subtle point...

I think the XR1200 would fill the spot perfectly, and the vast majority of people who want a 12R would either be happy with it, or would go with a different Sporty model (N or ???).

Again I think the lineup should be

883
883N
883C
maybe XR900

1200N
1200C
XR1200


The base model for price point

the N models for both look and short people

the C models for those who want more of a cruiser

The XR models for those who want SPORT

I wonder if Harley seriously missed the boat on the XR900 idea for Europe.

I mean, I know a bunch of manufacturers still make sub-liter twins for that market SPECIFICALLY because of regulations - whether that's license restrictions or registration/taxes/insurance I don't know, but there are 900 and 850cc versions of bikes that are otherwise 1100cc and 1200cc... it would seem like the perfect market to utilize that Buell lump.

:dunno

FYI- in case you haven't kept up with Buell, the ONLY XB9 model now -has been narrowed down to just the XB9Sx (City Cross) as they have eliminated the XB9R Firebolt.... the Bigger is better crowd is too ingrained in some :(

BTW- I've been tracking Buell engineering trends and products for 20 years now, and it's funny, the XB "9" motors have suffered far fewer problems than any of the 12 models have, which has always been a selling point to me for the Short strokers..... but old schoolers die hard :p

I wonder if Harley seriously missed the boat on the XR900 idea for Europe.

I mean, I know a bunch of manufacturers still make sub-liter twins for that market SPECIFICALLY because of regulations - whether that's license restrictions or registration/taxes/insurance I don't know, but there are 900 and 850cc versions of bikes that are otherwise 1100cc and 1200cc... it would seem like the perfect market to utilize that Buell lump.

:dunno

BTW- I've been tracking Buell engineering trends and products for 20 years now, and it's funny, the XB "9" motors have suffered far fewer problems than any of the 12 models have, which has always been a selling point to me for the Short strokers..... but old schoolers die hard :p

They announced the dropping of the Buell Firebolt maybe a year ago, hardly recent news...

...but it is sad if the short-stroker goes away because it was on the TOP of my Buell list...

FYI- in case you haven't kept up with Buell, the ONLY XB9 model now -has been narrowed down to just the XB9Sx (City Cross) as they have eliminated the XB9R Firebolt.... the Bigger is better crowd is too ingrained in some :(

BTW- I've been tracking Buell engineering trends and products for 20 years now, and it's funny, the XB "9" motors have suffered far fewer problems than any of the 12 models have, which has always been a selling point to me for the Short strokers..... but old schoolers die hard :p

For the same reasons I've been attracted to the shorter stroke "9" series engines too.

Hi Aloysius,
I'm from Montreal. There are 4 or 5 dealers within about 60 miles of here.
None of them has had a 1200R in the last 2 years. I got mine 3 years ago
and haven't really seen any on the showroom floor since then.
Only one dealer carried the 1200R back then. Now they even don't.
I don't know what it is. Folks say it the best of this and that and yet,
very few are actually sold. I wonder what the sales numbers actually are.
I've got my yellow pearl '05 1200R. You are so right...
'the 1200R is the last traditional style motorcycle that HD builds.'

Max, I bought mine off the floor last year, (07), from Mtl. Harley, they also had a 06 on the floor the previous year.

Howard

MOCO will be dis-continuing the XL883 and the XL1200R for the 2009 model year. Hope that means we will se the XR1200R as a replacement in Vegas Baybe ! Let you know as soon as I find out.

Yup, the 1200R is not on the list that the dealers received for the 2009 lineup ... and neither is the XR ... for now at least.

H

Yup, the 1200R is not on the list that the dealers received for the 2009 lineup ... and neither is the XR ... for now at least.

H

:frownone

but that could change...

:frownone

but that could change...

might just be saving it for the fall ... or the show for that matter ... we'll see

The XR might end up competing with the Buell line ... I'm still not sure where they'll go with this one in North America Kev ...

In Europe it is in Harleys interest to promote a more sporting image, that very same sporting image is somewhat conflictual with their image here though ... it will be interesting from a marketing point of view ... a limited production model for North America perhaps ??? ... harking back to the flat track days in the good old USA ???

H

The XR might end up competing with the Buell line ...


No way, not at 10-15 hp less and 150 lbs heavier... ;)

No way, not at 10-15 hp less and 150 lbs heavier... ;)

Harley doesn't sell horsepower Kev, it sells image, with a half decent bike that it throws in free ! ;)

Harley doesn't sell horsepower Kev, it sells image, with a half decent bike that it throws in free ! ;)

If you REALLY believe that, there is no reason for the XR at all...

and you certainly wouldn't believe that it could hurt Buell sales then because they would then be completely different customers... ;)

If you REALLY believe that, there is no reason for the XR at all...

and you certainly wouldn't believe that it could hurt Buell sales then because they would then be completely different customers... ;)

I do beleive that for almost all of their models, and exactly why the R is being discontinued ... not enough of that Harleyesque look for most, and the sales figures prove it ... unfortunately as it was one of the best bikes that they produced, with the better clearance and twin discs ... and better power to weight ratio ( by HD standards ), precisely the reason that I have one !

Some of the Buell customers are buying in to the V Twin Harley engine on a sportier looking chassis with better brakes and handling ... and those could be drawn over to the XR, typically un Harleyesque.

I'd bet that there are guys out there riding Buells that used to ride Sportsters, or the Dyna FXDX for that matter ... guys that enjoy the low end torque and throb of the Harley twin, but enjoy a sportier ride ... not a cruiser type of ride ... that is where the overlap in products might lie.


Howard

I'm sure XR's will sell very well as long as everyone is looking for a 5 million pound flat tracker.

You can already style your Sportster to look like one right now, and just look at how many are running around on the streets. Both of them.

But, unless I'm reading Grumpy wrong, he seems to be saying/thinking that the XR1200 wouldn't suffice to fill the slot, and that they'd need BOTH the 1200R and the XR1200 or they'd loose sales to people like Triumph.

I disagree on that subtle point...

I think the XR1200 would fill the spot perfectly, and the vast majority of people who want a 12R would either be happy with it, or would go with a different Sporty model (N or ???).




when i bought my 1200R, there wasn't an N yet and no talk of the XR.

at the time i wanted the t-100, i most likely would NOT have bought an XR over the bonnie.

now that there is an N, i might have gone with that. but definitely not the XR.


however, don't fret...i am progressing along in my views..

if it was TODAY that i was looking for a new 'standard' bike, i would take a look at the XR.

of course i CAN'T, because it doesn't EXIST over here, but you get my point.

OK, let me try and explain it one more time...

I REALLY SUSPECT that between the 12N and AN XR1200 Harley would have the demographic pretty well covered of those who might otherwise consider a Bonnie...

(Add the C in too if we're talking America/Speedmaster).

They're not gonna win all of em all the time, but they'd have a broad enough draw.

I agree that IF they eliminate the 12R and DO NOT bring in the XR, then they are creating a hole in that broad coverage and may loose some potential buyers to Triumph...

...

i understand you.

and again, i'm saying that i'm one of the (supposed) few that is outside of that demographic.

i understand you.

and again, i'm saying that i'm one of the (supposed) few that is outside of that demographic.

Nope, I'm saying you're inside it - you said you MIGHT HAVE GONE FOR THE N if it were available... ;)

maybe.


but probably not.

on the fact of its price (compared to a bonnie) alone.

in all actuality, if it was like 3-4 months later, 2 places popped up and one carries ducati and another guzzi. so for the price i probably would've looked at those closer than the N.

;)

but you neva, neva know.

True dat -on neva knows -and we are all just speculating here...

don't worry, people. if they dis-continue 1200r, the new XR1200 would be good replacement, i saw that bike and it looks great, wider rear tire, different swingarm, upside-down forks, about 90hp, peanut tank- that's really great bike - it will have many new customers...

Let me throw in two other potential buyers. Both are sport bike guys and die hard Harley haters.

I showed one the XR and thought it looked good. So he asked questions based on having ridden my bike. I told him it had more power, handled, better and had better brakes than mine. I also said it's rubber mounted. He said that would be a bike he would consider even though it's a Harley.

No. 2 just sold his Suzuki and is going to buy a Night Rod Special. We were at a bar, he saw one out side and asked me what it was. I told him a Harley. The next day we went to 3 different Harley dealers looking for one.

Both of these guys would have never darkened the door of a Harley dealer. Because Harley are producing something that is not typical Harley they are willing to take a look.

This is a hoot. Great conversation gang.
I like the second part of the question we’ve come to – do the 1200R and the XR fill the same niche and go after the same potential market?

My guess is no – here’s my theory as to why.

XL1200R targets the “Retro Standard” buyer - those mostly new/returning riders out there who want a standard, but want some nostalgia and strength of brand. The “not cruiser / not sport-bike” guy. Go back a few pages to see the justification for this conclusion.

The XR1200 on the other hand, with its nearly rear-sets and aggressive ergos, is pretty clearly looking to grab an (arguably small) slice of the sport-bike crowd. I think the fact that Harley launched the XR in Europe speaks volumes about that, as does the product decisions they’ve made that deviate from the purely nostalgic XR originals. They are pushing it as the “fast, sporty (small s) Harley”.

While there may be cross-overs between the two segments, I’m proposing that they are not the same market. Two different groups, with different impact to the business and different product needs.

One takes momentum from Triumph and other potential entries into the retro standard market, the other is looking to sweep up refugees from the sport bike crowd. Different segment sizes and demographics, and different strategic reasons to pursue both. So from a pure gut marketing perspective, it would be worth it to make room for both bikes.

To be honest (and the sound you are about to hear is Kev detonating) I don’t see the XR as a viable market play. I just don’t see it pulling many sport bike folks, and I’m not sure it satisfies the market desire for a retro standard. – it’s not even really a decent café racer attempt. For me, I wish they would have tried an XLCR update to compliment the N and the R instead of the XR. That would fill the “grab sport bike refugees” role and still map to the whole strategy in a clean way. The XR is hot (hell, I want one) – but it’s not making a whole lot of strategic sense to me.

Been following this discussion with much interest. I have an 08 1200R and would be saddened to see this model discontinued. I fall into the returning rider group and was drawn to the R. It has a classic look with evolutionary improvements over the original.

The XR1200 is a cool looking Sporty, but you're not going to use it to tour on even over a weekend. Its more a sport bike.

The 1200R made a good touring Sporty for those of us that didn't want forward controls. The 1200N leaves me cold. If I were looking for a bike with forward controls I would be looking at a Dyna or Softail (assuming I could find one with enough leg room).

I am not looking forward to six months of what seat looks best on an XR, what oil do I use in an XR, what windshield works best on an XR, can I ride 2 up on an XR, which is faster the XR or an F-19, show me some custom painted XRs, what tire pressure do you use on your XR.....

I am not looking forward to six months of what seat looks best on an XR, what oil do I use in an XR, what windshield works best on an XR, can I ride 2 up on an XR, which is faster the XR or an F-19, show me some custom painted XRs, what tire pressure do you use on your XR.....

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa67/steveewf/animatedgifs/rofl.gif

Looks like I may need to expand my "Dr. Coyote's Special Nightster Oil" business to "Super HOT XR B'tings Oil".

Cash cow baby.

From a marketing standpoint I think the C saved the Sportster. The lack of range as well as the lack of a modern look was a huge draw back to the peanut tank. The Nightster changed things with a new style but before that I would put the numbers at over 1/3 of Rubbermount owners that wouldn't have bought a Sporty without the 4.5 gallon tank. I don't think the Low would have been as popular with a peanut and I think the diehard defendants of the Roadster are the guys defending the peanut tank that is fast becoming a thing of the past.

I think even the Nightster will be a hard sell in a couple years simply because no one want to be the guy that has to stop every 100 miles for gas.

I'm one of those of the opinion that the C probably does well because it is the bike that many people buy when a BT is either too expensive or too big for them and nothing but the MoCo will do. I just bought a leftover '07 883R and I very likely wouldn't even own a Harley if it weren't for that particular bike. I already owned one old, small-sized cruiser which I am still quite fond of, but I was ready to step up to a bike with more modern suspension that had some pretense of handling ability, more power but not crazy power, and some room for customization.

I had been looking mostly at dual-sport/adventure-sport, standard, and sport-touring bikes as high as $11-12k but was more comfortable shopping in the $7-8k range. The 883R struck a very resonant cord as being capable but not overwhelming, stylish but not gaudy, and actually a good value when compared against some other brand rivals and even against the 1200 Sportster. Plus it was the only bike that seemed to capture some semblance of H-D's sub-liter class sporting bikes of yore. I almost called the whole deal off when people who don't even own Harley's kept telling me "but Sportsters are so small" or "but those are girls' bikes" What, I should buy a monstrous Grandpa bike that I can't toss into a curve instead? Or, "you could put you a set of mini-apes and some forward controls on it." So...I might as well buy a C.

My 883R's main competition for my dollars was a flat black '08 Suzuki V-Strom 650 ABS. I'm sort of an atypical Harley shopper though. If I was buying a BT, I'd probably go out of my way to locate a clean, low mileage used Dyna T-Sport over just about any other brand new BT except maybe the Fat Bob. The T-Sport was a low seller too, but I liked the black-out treatment, the hybrid expandable saddlebags, and the mini-fairing. Harley needs to keep building bikes that appeal to non-traditional customers.

Now that I'm part of "the family" so to speak, I can really appreciate the support offered by the H-D dealer network, the corporate support via the vast parts and accessories stockpile, Harley resale value and rider comraderie. And my bike was quick to grow on me on my ride home from the dealer...what a torquey hoot! On the other hand, if I ever get to the point where I feel my niche-market, low sales bike is being marginalized, then I might very well move on and shop elsewhere.

Regarding the peanut tank...I have a love/hate relationship with it. I would love to have a bike that holds at least 4 gallons of gas, but the peanut tank looks so darned good on my bike that I doubt I will ever upgrade to the larger Sportster tank, which is not nearly sporty enough. To me, the 4.5 gal looks more dated, too...like a jellybean tank from the '50s. What I'd like is a sectioned and enlarged peanut tank. Anyone know if the aftermarket offers a larger tank in the classic peanut shape? How about the Storz aluminum flat track tank? It looks a little larger. I think their road race tank is larger as well and I kind of like the knee indents it has.

I think you are wrong. :p

The C is popular with p