A friend of mine had his sprocket nut come loose on his 06 1200. This caused lots of damage. The dealer is going to replace the crankshaft and I believe the case. All warranty work.

Since the dealer is going to split the cases and basically tear the whole motor down, they said that they would install anything he wants in the motor (no labor charge).

We are thinking of the new SE .575" cams along with the new 10.5 -1 compression SE pistons for the 04-06 Buell headed Sportys.

Just wondering if anyone here has installed either of these in there late model Sporty yet. I would hope the cams would fit without any case clearancing. Also, these SE forged pistons have what looks like very deep valve pockets ... so, we wonder if there would be any piston to valve clearance problems when using this new cam.

We also are going to order a set of the new Beehive shaped ovate wire SE springs. The SE catalog states that they will work with up to .575" lift cams.

Here is the particulars with the cams and pistons:


SE Pro XL1200 Forged High Compression Piston Kit

http://usera.imagecave.com/Turbota/SEPiston.jpg

Standard bore size
10.5 -1 compression ratio

Includes pistons, rings, wrist pins and circlips

P/N: 22711- 04

$ 279.95 MSRP

$ 219.79 + Shipping (21% discount) https://www.zanottimotor.com/shopping/partLookUp.html

______________________________________________


SE Pro Sportster High Output Cam Kit

Duration: 260 / 266

Lift: .575” / .575”

Intake Timing: 28 / 52
Exhaust Timing: 57 / 29

TDC Lift: .228” / .221”

P/N: 25740- 05

$ 274.95 MSRP

$ 214.99 + Shipping (21% discount) https://www.zanottimotor.com/shopping/partLookUp.html


Note: We want to send the heads to NRHS for CNC porting at a later date.

Thanks for any input,
Ron

Ron, if those springs are the same ones they're putting in the SE XL heads, they require a taller installed height to give the additional travel and proper seat pressure. The spring pockets in the SE heads are cut down about .120 to accomodate those springs. But that has a bad side effect: it makes the roof of the port thin, which limits how much you can raise it. Raising the roof is a key method for making a port work better. By cutting the spring pocket that deep, you limit how good you can make the port.

The alternative methods to get more installed height would be to either recut the seats and sink the valves, or to get valves with longer stems. Both will change the valvetrain geometry because the tip of the valve will end up in a different place. Sinking the valves will also shroud them if not done properly, hurting low lift flow and performance. So again, there are undesirable side effects.

The bottom line is that in order for a single wound spring to have equivalent seat pressure, it has to have larger wire diameter. Larger wire diameter increases coil bind height, thus reducing travel. All of these single wound beehive springs I've seen either give up seat pressure or travel or both at a given installed height, as compared to a quality dual spring. There's no free lunch.

Everyone likes the idea of reducing mass at the end of the spring that sees the most movement, but spring pressure and travel are critical, and increasing installed height to get them is not without side effects as I've pointed out. This is why despite the advantages of the beehive, dual and triple spring packs are still the most popular solutions. You can get more pressure and/or travel at a given installed height.

The other thing to think about, too, is the potential for failure of the factory steel 7mm valve when you put a lot of spring pressure to it and operate it with a more aggressive cam lobe. I'd sure at least upgrade to a stainless 7mm valve.

Anyway, good luck.

Aaron ...

I really appreciate your reply.

Here is a copy of the SE catalog page. We were thinking of the single 'beehive' springs shown, but maybe the standard style double springs (also shown in the pic below) would be better. Since H-D is doing the work, we just need some springs that they can install in his stock 06 1200 heads without any machine work. Springs that will work with those .575 cams.

http://usera.imagecave.com/Turbota/ValveSprings.jpg

Also, do you think that cam / piston combo will be ok with no machine work or clearancing in the case?

He just wants to give the parts to the dealer before they re-assemble the engine. The dealer stated that they would not be installing new pistons (only rings) ... but since they are replacing the stock rings, they would install the new pistons since they would be pulling the stock pistons anyway to put on new rings.

Ron,

Ron, those little descriptions don't provide enough info to answer your questions. They give a seat pressure, a pretty high one, but they don't tell the installed height or if the pockets need to be cut to get to that installed height. I can tell you that my experience with those cams is that they don't need anywhere near that much seat pressure. Excessive seat pressure, beyond what's necessary to control the valvetrain, just makes things wear faster.

It's possible that they give 208 on the seat without any pocket cutting, and something less with correspondingly more travel if you cut the pockets. But who knows, without seeing the instruction sheet.

All I can tell you is that if it's the same set of springs they're putting in the SE XL head, they get the additional travel by making the spring taller, and they cut the pockets on those heads to make'em fit. And cutting the pockets deeper is a bad, bad thing IMO. Really limits what you can do with the head.

Keep in mind that a stock head is totally done at .500 of lift. So you're jumping through hoops to get a big cam into the motor that the heads can't even use.

208 is a big number, I personally would not put that much pressure to a stock steel 7mm stem valve. I'd at least run a stainless. I'd much rather run a 5/16 stem stainless at that kind of pressure, particularly if I was pairing it with an aggressive cam lobe. But that's just me.

On the piston to valve clearance, I have no idea on their pistons, I rarely use them. .228 and .221 are not insignificant TDC lift figures though. It just depends on how deep they made the pockets on their pistons.

Cam box clearance, I dunno. I've installed a few sets of 575's into older motors but not a rubber mount. I'd sure check everything. Ditto anti0rotation pin clearance, you may need to machine the flats on the lifters.

Bottom line here is you're venturing into a real motor build, where things are getting pushed harder and it's more critical to both match components correctly as well as check all clearances on assembly and make adjustments as needed. Not at all sure you'll be successful doing that if a dealer is just putting it together like a stock build. There's a lot of little details you have to look at when you get into this level of build.

Historically, SE has shied away from parts at this level. Now they're starting to ship stuff that takes some real attention to detail to use successfully. I wonder if the typical dealer has the expertise to do it. I'm sure some do, but an awful lot of shops are still in bolt-on world.

Hey Ron, from what I've read recently, the .551 "E" grind is bolt-in on the 04-laters because its TDC lift on the exhaust port matches the stock "W" grind. In fact, the exhaust TDC on the "E" is only .122. It looks like the reason that this "bolt-in" is so tall is so that they can achieve a longer duration, yet still close quick enough to avoid the piston on the exhaust side. With the higher attack rate of these cams, Harley has actually lowered the ATDC duration of the exhaust valve to 10* (4* less than standard "W"). It seems to me that it's a reasonable trade off, as it adds a fair amount of overlap on both ends.

Ultimately, I'm driving at the fact that it seems rather apparent that the rather low .122" exhaust figure is cruical to these new heads. I'll stand on baited breath for your report. As for now, I want to hang on to my warranty for a while, so I'm stopping with the "E" grind.

Well, I just talked to the guy that works with Aaron at NRHS (sorry, can't remember his name). He was kind enough to call me on the phone ... Aaron was out of the office at the time.

Anyway, do to your situation with this engine, he recommended we just purchase the H-D .536" cams. They can be used with the stock valvesprings and are still capable of making 100rwh with the proper headwork (which we are going to have NRHS do at a later date).

We are also going to buy the 10.5 -1 SE forged pistons we talked about in my post above.

We are going to file a 45 degree chamfer on the edge of the #2 and #3 cam lobes to insure we have clearance with the crankshaft bearing race ... We also had to do this when I installed my Zippers Red Shift cams. I was told that the .536" cams would not interfere with the engine case in the area of the lifter bores like my Zippers cams, so we won't need to deal with that.

Ideally, I would send the cylinders up to NRHS and have them bore them and install a set of there "Hurricane" pistons, but do to the situation with this engine ... that's not a good option right now.

Anyway, as long as these new SE replacement pistons seal good (we hope), the motor should run pretty strong ... and like I said, we can also pull the heads later and have NRHS work there magic on them.

Ron,

Lynk ...

I had a set of the SE .551" (E grind) cams in my motor before. They performed pretty good, but were very noisy. Others have had the same problems with them.

Actually, the .536 cams are said to make more power than .551 cams due to better valve timing and overlap ... so, I think it's a good choice ... and they can be used with the stock springs ... Which is a good idea for us now anyway.

Ron,

BTW ... something interesting ... Looking at my friends 06, the 06s [don't] have those 2 lifter anti-rotation pins that screw into the side of the engine case like the 04-05 engines do.

There must be something internal that keeps the valve lifters from rotating.

The thing is that the .536" cams have even a higher TDC exhaust lift than the .575" cams. I like the fact that they keep the exhaust open for 30 degrees ATDC, but I was hoping for something that wouldn't require head work, just yet. That's why I mentioned the factory warranty. ;)

What I didn't mention was that I was planning on buying a spare gasket, and keeping my old cams. :D

Lynk is right. The 536's negate the need for more spring and all the issues surrounding that, and will likely slide right in the cam box without clearancing, and they'll run just as good on a stock head (maybe better), but they actually make piston to valve contact more likely on the exhaust side.

If it was our pistons, I'd be comfortable telling the customer it'll clear ok (although I still like people to check it, I have yet to see one that needed clearancing, except with 883 heads and their longer valves). But I'm not going to make that statement for someone else's pistons. I have no idea.

He *really* shouldn't go sliding those pistons into stock, used cylinders, though. He ought to get them fitted properly. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the rings to seal properly when the cylinders have been broken in with a different set of rings and pistons. Rings carve the cylinder into their shape, that's the whole idea. Put different rings into one after that process and they're not going to fit right. You could hone the cylinders again to give'em a chance to seat, but you're just making everything looser and it's probably badly out of round anyway.

Aaron ... You make a good point. Ideally, if the cylinders were sent to your shop, we could insure a correct piston fit and ring seal ... In this situation, we are talking about something that is so much different from what someone [should] do when building the engine .... As I stated above, if we did absolutly nothing, the dealer would be replacing all the damaged parts, to include the crankshaft. They said they would also be replacing just the rings on the old pistons prior to re-assembly. Of course, all this work is under a warranty work order.

Well, if it's of any help to us ... the bike only has a total of 1,500 miles on it.

P.S. If this was a car engine that had a damaged crankshaft and was still under warranty ... the dealership would just install a new "crate engine" and be done with it. I guess H-D has not figured that out yet.

Also, you would think that a big Corp. like H-D would have a SE "tech line" you could call and ask a question like: Will the .536 cams and the SE 10.5 -1 CR pistons P/N so-and-so bolt in a stock 06 1200 with no piston to valve clearance issues or any other problems? .... Simple as that .... Jeese, they sell the parts, they make the bike ... They should know what parts combo fit together and what don't!

BTW, Ron, I dunno how I missed the fact that your friend is having a full rebuild. (I guess it had something to do with skimming your original post, this morning.) :p Dude, if the dealership is going to warrant their labor on the build, I would try out the .575"s. It looks to me like they use a nice high-contact gear pitch, so they should be rather quiet. Once again, I'd like to read a report on how things go!

Aaron, I'm not the one with the broken bike... though, with that sort of free labor, I wish my '06 Custom had broken in the same way, when its crankshaft hub-nut broke free. *lol*

if they are going to have the motor apart you should have an oil scraper added and have stronger connecting rods put in (if you are thinking about building this up later). While your at it have the cases bored out and get some axtell cylanders. so when you decide you want to take it out to 88" you can with easy.

Use the argument that if the nut let loose and metal chips and shavings made its way through the motor there is residual damage to the motor and the whole thing should be replaced to ensure long term reliability.

I do agree with the statement that anyother company would just get a new crate motor, i suspect that the only reason the dealer is doing this is that they get to charge the work back to HD so they are making money on the deal vs the little bit of time it would take them to uncrate a new motor and put it in. That might be something you want to talk to HD directly about.

None of the work you are talking about doing at the moment requires splitting the cases. Cams are fairly easy to put in and pistons you can do yourself plus you can have your cylinders matched to your pistons and have the job done properly. Performance motorwork like you are thinking about is deffinatly something that should be left in experienced detail oriented hands. At least the machining and matching of parts.

Dean

Turbo I don't want to highjack this post but this problem seems to have happened to a few other forum members. So, did your friend have any warning that this was happeningto his bike? With such low milage it makes you wonder if this was bad from the get go. Did the bike start making any unusual noises? Did it happen all of a sudden without warning. I guess I'm asking is if there is anything that the rest of us should look out for.

Jim ...

The bike belongs to an XLForum member here with username "dodgenbullets"

You may have seen this thread about the problem: http://www.xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=18550

I don't know all the particulars, but he said it got really loud 500 miles ago after the bike went to the dealer for a 1,000 mile service. This is a different dealer than the one fixing it now. I first heard the bike when he brought it over to my house a few days ago when I loaded a MAP program into his TC88A ignition module. I told him it sounded like a loose compensator nut and followed him to a dealer that I know the service writer .... His motor really sounded like a damned ol' John Deere thrashing machine ... that's a fact.

The thrashing sound is bad when idling, but tends to get much quieter when you advance the throttle to 2,000 rpm and above. If you stick your ear up to the motor, you can isolate the thrashing sound to just in front of the derby cover.

Maybe he will chim in here and give you some particulars.

Ron,

I think my motor is also making some noise from that area too. Not nearly as bad as his, but it's there ... And it's not an out of adjustment chain either!

My bike is down now for the winter here in Chicago, but I'm sure the rest of the riding members appreciate that information. I guess we all should pay close attention to the sounds our bikes make, I know I'll look te bike over in the spring before I start using it again.

Thanks for that heads up Ron, maybe Dodgenbullets will chime in with some more information.

None of the work you are talking about doing at the moment requires splitting the cases. Cams are fairly easy to put in and pistons you can do yourself plus you can have your cylinders matched to your pistons and have the job done properly.

Dean

Dean, I believe the left side of the engine case has been damaged, so that's why they are splitting the cases. A new stock crankshaft will also be replaced on warranty since it's damaged.

I agree, installing pistons, cams, etc is not difficult. In fact, I have had 2 different sets of cams in my motor already and put the cylinders / pistons in the motor after NRHS did the machine work. As far as the guy with the trashed engine ... the dealer is doing all the labor on H-Ds dime, so we are just supplying some parts over and above the stock parts they would be normally using. In a perfect world, the cylinders would be sent to NRHS is be machined and the pistons properly fitted. But, I think this will work good concidering the situation we have.

Ron,

im the guy with the XLFXLFXLFXLFXLFXLFXLF**up bike,some of the techs at HD are better than others,i asked the guy at the dealer after my 1000k service if my bike sounded noisy he said sportsters are supposed to be noisy,i talked to him after a dyno run and showed him how spiky the rear wheel torque line looked i said maybe the primary chain is loose he said imposible, we checked it that must be the way the guy rode your bike on the dyno B.S.i agree with some of you the whole integrity of the motor has been compromised i should be getting a brand new motor im now pissed and confused as what to do if i take this as an oppurtunity to fit my motor with performance stuff it could be a waste if the pistons dont seal right and i have some other faluire later then ill be payin the bill.all this becuase of one nut

i wish i could describe for you people exactly what the sound is like but if you put you ear near a cool engine thats idling on the left side in front of the shifter you will hear it it sounds kinda like a blender full of marbles the pitch may change when you twist the throttle like from blend to puree.if it gets louder over time its probaly coming loose in my case i took off the ham can and put on a round big sucker wich gives the valve train sound a more direct path out of the motor and i added cycleschack slip ons. so based on what the dealer told me at 1000 mile service and the added noise of bolt ons plus my inexperience with the noises of a HD i took them at thier word that everything was ok,its good if you can get a second opininion should of done that right off the bat.the dealer i bought the bike from Stubs has a good reputation for selling bikes right at MSRP with nothing but TTL added.but their service department has got a less reputable reputation.the dealer thats gonna fix my bike adds alot to the price of a new bike but they have a good reputation around town for service.it pays to ask around ill keep you posted as to how this saga ends what kinda sucks is i got some time off work and it was almost 80 degrees today and no bike to ride maybe they will cut me a deal on a rental

Bullets and Ron, I don't blame you guys for finding it difficult to give an accurate description of the noise. It's an unholy sound, that nothing should ever make! Here's my description, though...

It sounds like an overhead cam engine, with no oil in the top-end.

FYI - Aaron got me a set of the .575 cams, we'll be dynoing the bike with them later this week.

--Sean

im the guy with the XLFXLFXLFXLFXLFXLFXLF**up bike,some of the techs at HD are better than others,i asked the guy at the dealer after my 1000k service if my bike sounded noisy he said sportsters are supposed to be noisy,i talked to him after a dyno run and showed him how spiky the rear wheel torque line looked i said maybe the primary chain is loose he said imposible, we checked it that must be the way the guy rode your bike on the dyno B.S.i agree with some of you the whole integrity of the motor has been compromised i should be getting a brand new motor im now pissed and confused as what to do if i take this as an oppurtunity to fit my motor with performance stuff it could be a waste if the pistons dont seal right and i have some other faluire later then ill be payin the bill.all this becuase of one nut


How did this all turn out? What cam and piston did you install? How does it ride without reboring the cylinders? :rolleyes:

im the guy with the XLFXLFXLFXLFXLFXLFXLF**up bike,some of the techs at HD are better than others,i asked the guy at the dealer after my 1000k service if my bike sounded noisy he said sportsters are supposed to be noisy,i talked to him after a dyno run and showed him how spiky the rear wheel torque line looked i said maybe the primary chain is loose he said imposible, we checked it that must be the way the guy rode your bike on the dyno B.S.i agree with some of you the whole integrity of the motor has been compromised i should be getting a brand new motor im now pissed and confused as what to do if i take this as an oppurtunity to fit my motor with performance stuff it could be a waste if the pistons dont seal right and i have some other faluire later then ill be payin the bill.all this becuase of one nut

sorry to hear about your motor, just hope the same tech that couldnt tell there was a real problem with it in the first place doesnt put it back together, regardless with what cams you use, a whole new motor is what you should be getting.

. To answer the recent questions posted, Things turned out just fine. I went to another dealer for the rebuild. It's a high volume shop with a tech that wrenches primarly on Buells and Sportsters. I had to use the stock pistons due to time involved with machine shops. They did install SE .551 cams, at no charge. The bike ran better than it ever has the minute I left the dealership. Still runs strong today.

FYI - Aaron got me a set of the .575 cams, we'll be dynoing the bike with them later this week.

--Sean


Sean

Did you ever get the .575 cams dyno'ed?

. To answer the recent questions posted, Things turned out just fine. I went to another dealer for the rebuild. It's a high volume shop with a tech that wrenches primarly on Buells and Sportsters. I had to use the stock pistons due to time involved with machine shops. They did install SE .551 cams, at no charge. The bike ran better than it ever has the minute I left the dealership. Still runs strong today.


How noisy are the cams? :tour

I was almost talked out of these cams due to the noise issue. I will say this, mechanical noise is often in the ear of the beholder. To my ear, they're not obnoxiuosly loud. You definitley can here them clatter a bit at idle. With a semi loud exhuast such as the cycle shacks it's not even noticable at cruise. I ride with a few members here, maybe thier just bieng nice....but no one has ever identified my bike as being noisy.

Lynk is right. The 536's negate the need for more spring and all the issues surrounding that, and will likely slide right in the cam box without clearancing, and they'll run just as good on a stock head (maybe better), but they actually make piston to valve contact more likely on the exhaust side.

If it was our pistons, I'd be comfortable telling the customer it'll clear ok (although I still like people to check it, I have yet to see one that needed clearancing, except with 883 heads and their longer valves). But I'm not going to make that statement for someone else's pistons. I have no idea.

He *really* shouldn't go sliding those pistons into stock, used cylinders, though. He ought to get them fitted properly. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the rings to seal properly when the cylinders have been broken in with a different set of rings and pistons. Rings carve the cylinder into their shape, that's the whole idea. Put different rings into one after that process and they're not going to fit right. You could hone the cylinders again to give'em a chance to seat, but you're just making everything looser and it's probably badly out of round anyway.



would this be as much as an issue with a bike that has only 3364 mi on it? i am in this same exact position, dealer is replacing the case and offered a upgrade oppertunity to me.

i want things that will work with stock components while still getting a noticable gain...


i was looking at doing the SE forged pistons and .536's i am running a rubber mounted 04+ so i am hoping this stuff will be bolt in? my other question is i see these cams will work with stock springs? but will that allow me to rev to 6800 or 7000 on stock springs? im pretty sure i need some springs, but do i go with the race? or performance? both offered by SE

IMHO I think the 536 cams are a great choice. They match the flow of the heads and can produce 90+ HP with the right setup.

The 575's are a great cam but, require Stage II headwork to really get the benefit out of them.

so, your doing right with the 536's.:)

yeah i think 90+ is plenty in sportster. any faster and i prefer to be on four wheels :) this is something i bought to spend some more time with my dad!

would this be as much as an issue with a bike that has only 3364 mi on it? i am in this same exact position, dealer is replacing the case and offered a upgrade oppertunity to me.


Yes. What happens during break-in is the rings carve the cylinder into their shape. That process can take anywhere from a few miles to a few hundred miles depending on the accuracy of the machine work and the shape of the rings. At 3364 miles, it's long done. Now swap in another set of rings and it's not right anymore. You have to hone the cylinder again to give the process a chance, and of course, that increases the clearance. you might get lucky and the cylinder cleans up at a reasonable clearance. If not, you need to go to the next oversize.

IMO, you're better off to re-use your old rings than to install new ones and not hone the cylinder.



i was looking at doing the SE forged pistons and .536's i am running a rubber mounted 04+ so i am hoping this stuff will be bolt in? my other question is i see these cams will work with stock springs? but will that allow me to rev to 6800 or 7000 on stock springs? im pretty sure i need some springs, but do i go with the race? or performance? both offered by SE

The 536's will work fine with the stock springs on a rubber mount to 7000. You need to look closely at your exhaust valve to piston clearance though, particularly with stock pistons. That's the only thing to watch for.

Whether or not your motor power peak anywhere near 7000 on stock heads is another issue though.

thanks! awesome response :)