I want to eliminate any foot pedal controls on my 73. I'm doing a hand shifter on the right side, so that takes care of that pedal.

Now, for the other. I want to control both of my brakes from the hand lever. I have a single piston front and a dual piston rear. can I just split them like a dual front brake setup, only with one line going to the rear with a proportioning valve?

Or would it make more sense to do it the other way, with the foot controlling both? I could see the brake as a potential issue on a hill or something if it's on the same lever as the gas.

Hi.

You will need to install a Proportioning valve to equalize the pressure to the front and rear, if you don't, the Back tire will lock up every time you try to stop.

Personally, I think this is not a good Idea for a daily rider. Use currently have two separate systems, if one fails(Blown seal, broken line) you still have the other system to stop the bike.
This is why the D.O.T. mandated a duel system on cars.

Just a thought.

Gee, how to say this.... I DID do it, the back (or the front) never locked and I've never had a caliper failure. Stock front MC, stock calipers, braided SS lines and no porportioning valve. True, I never attempted a stoppie or other stunt, but it worked at the drag strip (125mph to 25 in 100 ft) and passed tech at Bonneville.

Worked for me,
Sam

Hey why not... the Beamers are setup that way... Complete with Antilock system. Maybe you can pickup a used BMW Braking computer with all the sensors and proportioning valves for a reasonable price...

This would definatley be a plus for those that sometimes over break front or rear. Especially on slick stuff or gravel. Heck it can't be any worse then the guys going with no front brake so it looks cleaner.

Hi.

Personally, I think this is not a good Idea for a daily rider. Use currently have two separate systems, if one fails(Blown seal, broken line) you still have the other system to stop the bike.
This is why the D.O.T. mandated a duel system on cars.

Just a thought.


My guess is that safety is not an issue. A hand shifter on the right side, no brake pedal, no hand on the brake lever while shifting................

I want to eliminate any foot pedal controls on my 73.

Just curious....

Why?

Maybe you can pickup a used BMW Braking computer with all the sensors and proportioning valves for a reasonable price...
No such animal. Thoe babies are very expensive used or orher wise. I wouldn't have a system like that. You'll have no choice as to which brake youll use under any set of conditions. Not altogeher safe IMHO.

Bad idea.

Gee, how to say this.... I DID do it, the back (or the front) never locked and I've never had a caliper failure. Stock front MC, stock calipers, braided SS lines and no proportioning valve. True, I never attempted a stoppie or other stunt, but it worked at the drag strip (125mph to 25 in 100 ft) and passed tech at Bonneville.

Worked for me,
Sam


Let me restate, a DAILY DRIVER not a race bike. Stopping in a strait line is one thing, on a track under controlled conditions is not what you run into in the real world.
Try running the twisties and brake hard, then you will see what I am talking about.
70% of the braking is done by the front tire, and 30% is done by the rear, it's the law of physics.
Without a Proportioning valve, the rear will try to do too much, and that can leed to wheel lock in a panic stop.

Race bike or trailer queen, it's just fine, but a daily rider....well, it's you life, you do not need my permission to go and get yourself killed.

All i am trying to do is help you avoid this.

Hey why not... the Beamers are setup that way... Complete with Antilock system. Maybe you can pickup a used BMW Braking computer with all the sensors and proportioning valves for a reasonable price...
I wish they were as cost effective for bikes as they are for cars. I know an ABS is available as an option on some BT models. And come standard on the BMW 1200 Classic. And are pretty much standard equipment on all but the cheapest cars these days. I think a single control ABS would rock. Hell, you don't have two seperate brake controls in your car, why on a bike? They braking dynamics are pretty much the same, that is to say most of the braking on a car is done by the front brakes as well.

I wish they were as cost effective for bikes as they are for cars. I know an ABS is available as an option on some BT models. And come standard on the BMW 1200 Classic. And are pretty much standard equipment on all but the cheapest cars these days. I think a single control ABS would rock. Hell, you don't have two seperate brake controls in your car, why on a bike? They braking dynamics are pretty much the same, that is to say most of the braking on a car is done by the front brakes as well.

Over here all new cars must come equipped with ABS, great safety option.

However both Honda and BMW and possibly other manufacturers have linked systems on some of their bikes, but these systems have been developed after years of testing and Millions of dollars in R & D. Even then I have read many reports from Road Testers who dislike them because they feel they don't have the same control under normal everyday conditions.

Personally I think this could be a dangerous route to go with a homemade system. But I am no tech so nothing more than an opinion, and a reasonably uneducated one. If you do decide to go ahead, I think you should get as much professional advice as possible.

The biggest problem that I see is the uncontrollable urge to customize/personalize our scooters. If you start changing tire diameters you risk confusing the computer. It will think that one wheel is traveling faster than the other and try to compensate by letting off the slower moving wheel.. Could be interesting... Maybe another way for the MOCO to make $$$$ off us.... Reprograming the braking computer...

I wish they were as cost effective for bikes as they are for cars. I know an ABS is available as an option on some BT models. And come standard on the BMW 1200 Classic. And are pretty much standard equipment on all but the cheapest cars these days. I think a single control ABS would rock. Hell, you don't have two seperate brake controls in your car, why on a bike? They braking dynamics are pretty much the same, that is to say most of the braking on a car is done by the front brakes as well.

A buddy of mine with an '81 Low Rider has this done. He only has one good leg, so he just made it easier on himself and put both brakes onto his brake lever. I agree that for the average rider, I wouldn't recommend it unless it's the best you can do. I believe he has it proportioned as discussed above, but I don't know exactly how.

Don't know if they still do it, or how they did it, but Moto Gussi had a linked braking system way back when. (I first learned of it in late 70's.) I just went to their US site and didn't find any verbiage about the brakes in the company history... I think that they still had dual controls, but the hand control also activated rear brakes some. I don't think the foot control did anything with the front brake... or maybe it was the other way around, activating the foot brake also activated one of the dual front discs... Their is a Forum member who also has a Moto Gussi, maybe he'll jump in and correct me... :laugh :laugh :laugh

Just a little memory traveling on my part... :p

There might be an accessory/modification setup designed for riders who can't use right side foot controls for whatever reason... you might try researching from that angle...

However both Honda and BMW and possibly other manufacturers have linked systems on some of their bikes, but these systems have been developed after years of testing and Millions of dollars in R & D. Even then I have read many reports from Road Testers who dislike them because they feel they don't have the same control under normal everyday conditions.

.


I think the bulk of R&D costs on these systems have been recovered by the Auto makers. THey have been the ones who have skimmed the cream off the top of the market as far as charging for the option (when it was one). I think it's mostly a question of adapting the technology to motorcycles more than anything else. There may be anectotal evidence of riders not liking them, but it was the same with cars when they first had them. I used to talk to friends who thought any brake system that did not lock up was dangerous. There is always resistance with new technology. When Harley went to overhead valves in the 1930's everyone thought it would be the death of the MoCo. When they went to swing arm suspension in the 1960's, Evo engines in the 1980's , EFI and ABS systems that are either here or about to be here. All met with predictions of failure. But fortunately success never listens to doom and gloomers and nay sayers. If you have ever gone over the high side due to a wheel lock up ( as I have) you would (as I do) look forward to ABS systems on bikes. To me it's just a natural progression

ABS scares the bejesus out of me in my truck and I will never have it on my bike! With my last car and my pickup, the ABS does not allow me to stop faster, it only allows me to be a dang idiot and just mash the break. I don't do this anyway, so the only time my ABS ever kicks in is when I intentionally try to get it to. My complaint w/ ABS is that it doesn't prevent tire lock up, it just reduces it to split second lock ups. This is fine if you're going straight, but if you're running hard into a corner, or going through a corner on ice, etc. and needing to break, those quick lockups can be dangerous. I have much better control w/ a standard breaking system (yes, I lock it up for a split second, but then I can feather off of it and run right on that fine line.) The ABS doesn't let you get as close to the fine line as you can w/o it.

Just my $0.02 rant. (which is also not based on any "high end" performance cars, etc.... just on a pickup and sport coupe)

Personally, I think that I wouldnt want an ABS or linked front rear break system. I think it takes away a lot of control from the rider, I know I brake differently and with various combos of front and rear brake all the time. Talk to anyone who has raced road courses and I think they will agree.
You are giving up too much control, the dynamics of a car and a Motorcycle are so different that they really can't compare.

Well we can talk anectotal evidence all day long. For and against. But s long as we are I'll throw in my .02. Here in Houston driving in torrential downpours is pretty much routine. And on extreemly wet surfaces I love my ABS. Once wheels lock up on wet pavement (or anything else for that matter) control of the vehicle is lost. My truck has an ABS and I have made some pretty mazing painic stops in the rain.

ABS will come to Sportsters, eventually. H-D will do it because they seem to not understand that a Sportster rider, i.e. one who actually puts milage on the bike :D , wants total control of his machine. H-D will build to sell to the average newbie, and/or to satisfy 'fed' requirements.

ya know, (not to hijack thread or anything... ) but it would be interesting to see which model H-D has the most performance parts on the market, also 'bling' parts. There's a lot of chopper stuff. Not really looking to consider bikes built in that style. Just curious about mods for 'stock' framed motorcycles.

Well we can talk anectotal evidence all day long. For and against. But s long as we are I'll throw in my .02. Here in Houston driving in torrential downpours is pretty much routine. And on extreemly wet surfaces I love my ABS. Once wheels lock up on wet pavement (or anything else for that matter) control of the vehicle is lost. My truck has an ABS and I have made some pretty mazing painic stops in the rain.

I can't disagree with that, think ABS is such an important feature and would hate to be without it in the car. However I think the point the bike testers were making was that depending on experience of rider and conditions etc... having seperate control of both braking systems can be an advantage. Whilst I totally agree that in wet conditions and when wheels lock then the majority of control is lost.

However ABS can in certain conditions have a longer stopping distance which again could be disadvantageous. However if I had the choice and taking my own experience only into account, then I may well have plumped for Sportster with ABS, but only after a good long test ride.

Anyway all subjective, but getting back to the Original post, linking the brakes may well work but they certainly wont compare to linked or ABS brakes. Best of luck should you go ahead and would love to see pics when you're done.

ABS has been around for years; see Drum Brakes..... ;)

Sam

...R&D costs ... have been recovered by the Auto makers. ... I think it's mostly a question of adapting the technology to motorcycles more than anything else.It's a different problem that they are targeting, therefore the technology isn't all that reletive to a motorcycle. The ABS systems on cars are trying to keep you in a straight line (or controllable steer) when you lock up the brakes. I'd imagine that they must make use of left side vs. right side tire spin in the algorithims. We don't have left and right side differences on a bike, therefore the straight line algorithms are useless. It would be an re-engineering from the ground up to add it, and the only benifit would be to prevent tire lockups... which might be well worth it... but don't fool yourself into thinking that you can just recompile the programs in the ABS computers on cars to do the job.

Let me pose this question... how many of you want the same guy that designed the self cancelling turn signal electronics designing your bikes ABS system ???

Gazza

It's a different problem that they are targeting, therefore the technology isn't all that reletive to a motorcycle. The ABS systems on cars are trying to keep you in a straight line (or controllable steer) when you lock up the brakes. COLOR][/B]

Gazza

Good point. However the pitch and yaw math notwithstanding, I think the major benefit would be keeping the wheels from locking. The wheel rotation is the only thing that keeps a motorcycle upright. Wheels stop turning and you are pavement bound. Stopping distance versus a locked skid is no contest to me. Especially in the rain. And especially on a motorcycle. You can lock a bike up in the rain and be wildly out of control in a New York second. And as a side note, seeing how Harley's R&D money seems to be going into it's V-Rod technology, I look for them first on the V-Rod as standard equipment. They already have a bank of computers on them to make them even run now.

Let me pose this question... how many of you want the same guy that designed the self cancelling turn signal electronics designing your bikes ABS system ???Gazza

:frownthre:frownthre:frownthre:frownthre:frownthre :frownthre:frownthre

cheers
crackers

quote:Just curious....

Why?

dunno for sure. Just when I go over to the hand shifter i would only have one lever on the foot controls...so I thought "why not get rid of them all"

my thoughts were that with a proportioning valve, it wouldn't be any different (or less safe)than the bikes only running a rear brake.

and the brake on the left side kinda jacks me up. I suppose I could switch it to the right.

beyond all the ABS talk, and having no body part on a brake while shifting, any reason for no?
thanks for the comments...

quote:Just curious....

Why?

dunno for sure. Just when I go over to the hand shifter i would only have one lever on the foot controls...so I thought "why not get rid of them all"

my thoughts were that with a proportioning valve, it wouldn't be any different (or less safe)than the bikes only running a rear brake.

and the brake on the left side kinda jacks me up. I suppose I could switch it to the right.

beyond all the ABS talk, and having no body part on a brake while shifting, any reason for no?
thanks for the comments...

That says it all...

Put a proportioner on it and just go slow. With a hand shifter, I bet you don't corner very aggressively in the first place so it shouldn't be a problem.

And bikes running only a rear brake aren't safe, at least not at the cornering speeds that I use. :smoke