PDA

View Full Version : Chop Chop


Frebirdchoppers
9th February 2006, 02:03
I am planning on raking the frame and chopping the swingarm to fit a 190. I know some of you have done this. Is there any -I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!- ups I should look out for. I got a '94 sporty hugger, jugs bored to 1200, SE .536 cams and springs, 10:1 Comp weisco pistons, 2 1/4 porker pipes w/ those torque cone (which I think do nothin' for the torque curve), Dyna 2000 singal fire, She loves to eat in high rpm's. I want to lower it so I'm gonna rake the front and weld higher mounts for the rear shocks. I want to widen the swingarm and cut the frame struts off. Weld the rear fender right to the swingarm (if anyone has a pic of this please send it to me). What other cool chops have people done? What should I whatch out for?
Thanx for lookin'......

sportxlh
9th February 2006, 02:18
Check out this forum at club chopper. If you search for wide tire or 240 tire, you'll come up with a couple examples of people who did projects like yours and the advice they can offer

http://www.clubchopper.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=109&pagenumber=1&sortfield=lastpost&sortorder=desc&daysprune=1000&x=9&y=8

mickm
26th February 2006, 03:36
Raking the neck is pretty easy once you get over the first fear of putting the first cut in. Once the first cut is made it is pretty straight forward as if you change your mind you have to weld it back up anyway. I have a 91 hugger which I raked out to 38degrees. It takes about a day to cut and make the plates up and then re-weld. It is not a hard process as long as you are either confident with your own welding or know someone you can trust. The only cost is that of the steel which is only a couple of dollars (australian). If you give me you email address I can send the pictures of what it should look like step by step. Or if you want the instructions I will post same on this thread.

Chopper Duke
26th February 2006, 04:12
When you rake it are you going to add tubing to the back bone and down tube/s or just notch and reweld?

You should really use a jig to keep all of it straight and aligned properly.

mickm
26th February 2006, 04:31
When you cut the gusset you cut from the bottom up and halfway into the top tube. Therefore you are not adding to the top tube. The down tubes are only originally tacked into the neck and it is the gusset that holds all the strength. When I cut into the down tubes, before I added plate back into the gusset I welded another piece of steel into the section where the down tubes once were. If you mark your cuts out on the frame evenly on both sides and cut to you marks and further mark in some reference points before you cut, when you bend the front out it will all (should) bend evenly. Therefore no jigs are required. You have to level your frame first so that when you measure the angle of your desired rake it will all work when it is back together. I have put two pictures so far in my gallery and I suppose will have to wait another day to put 2 more in and so on until all pictures are in.

Chopper Duke
26th February 2006, 05:34
Mick, I see by your pictures what you are saying now.

I was thinking more of a neck weld like this:
http://www.chopperweb.net/gallery/data/639/4572neck_alignment_tool.JPG

with a gusset like this:
http://www.chopperweb.net/gallery/data/639/4572Neck_Gusset.JPG

or this:
http://www.chopperweb.net/gallery/data/509/399dsc4.jpg

mickm
26th February 2006, 09:07
They both look good, but it will be a lot more work, and it will be more difficult re alignment. You also may have trouble with the two down tubes, firstly they would have to be lengthen and I would also put a solid slug insert when where you extend, this would require some machining on a lathe to get the right diameter slug. you may have further problems if you go for the thinner neck as the two down tubes will not come close enough to give you the look as in the picture. I suppose you could join the two down tube lower in the frame and then extend a single down tube up to the neck. As stated I will post some more pictures as time permits. The oeverall result of the method I used was that the neck and gusset ended up looking stock. I further removed the neck lock and although my horn is now situated in the petrol tank tunnel as is the coil as pictured the only other thing I should have done at the time was to weld up the horn bolt tube in the gusset.

xllent01
26th February 2006, 14:53
When you cut the gusset you cut from the bottom up and halfway into the top tube. Therefore you are not adding to the top tube. The down tubes are only originally tacked into the neck and it is the gusset that holds all the strength. When I cut into the down tubes, before I added plate back into the gusset I welded another piece of steel into the section where the down tubes once were. If you mark your cuts out on the frame evenly on both sides and cut to you marks and further mark in some reference points before you cut, when you bend the front out it will all (should) bend evenly. Therefore no jigs are required. You have to level your frame first so that when you measure the angle of your desired rake it will all work when it is back together. I have put two pictures so far in my gallery and I suppose will have to wait another day to put 2 more in and so on until all pictures are in.
Holy $hit would i be scared to ride a bike that's been raked like that.:shhhh :frownthre Rake it right and it won't let you down, rake it wrong
and it's a matter of time before it will, oh yeah let you down.:doh



http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/My_rake_029.jpg

Chopper Duke
26th February 2006, 18:16
The necks I posted were the type I thought you were talking about.

I wouldn't begin to try and rake one with out a jig and more tubing would for sure be neccesary. I agree on the solid slugs being used and would use this method here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/chopd/slugs.jpg

I can't take credit for that image, it was drawn by a buddy of mine. (Sam)

Also, this (http://www.hondachopper.com/frame_alterations1.html) is a good link for frame alterations.

Also, if I was gonna cut and rake one, I would probably gooseneck it while I was at it, but that's me and a personalpreferance.

But then again, what do I know.....

xllent01
26th February 2006, 18:50
This is my buddys raked sporty which has a total rake of 40 degrees with 0" up and 3" out on the neck. It was raked
and stretched by the folks at RE, there work speaks for itself, safety and confidence knowing it won't let you down.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a84/xllent01/rakedsporty-1.jpg

Sportster1200
26th February 2006, 19:17
A stock Sportster frame completely depends on the sheetmetal gusseting to keep it together. The frame tubes are thin and need the gusseting for basic strength. A "chopper" frame uses much thicker tubing and relies on gussets to ADD some structural integrity in certain areas.

Other than buying a new frame (or neck - both theoretically require reregistering) you have two choices when choppping a Sporty. Cut the neck right off, extend your tubing and weld or slice the neck area as previously mentioned.

I did mine by putting a cut up the neck area from the bottom. If you keep it in the 40 degree range there should be no problem. You fill the cuts with a fill piece and then weld a plate over the top of the cut area. I think if you go much more than 40 degrees there is a lot more space to fill and you have to weld a plate over the entire surface area. I went overkill on my neck area and formed a 3/16 plate for both sides that covers the entire neck area.

You do not need a "real" jig but you must take a lot of measurements, make sure the frame is level AND plumb when you do your measuring. If you can weld it or bolt it to a table and mark points of reference to measure off of. Do not assume that both sides of the frame measure the same before cutting. There are some small differences on any frame and this can throw your measurements off after.

I am assuming that your either have someone else doing the welding or you are very proficient with welding.

Kong

mickm
28th February 2006, 09:42
I agree with you Kong. As stated I went 38 but 40 would have been the limit. It is about safety but also about costs. Trust me, I wouldn't have cut the front in the way I did without research and I am not going to ride a bike and have its front end fall off. What I am saying is that I am no cowboy. As stated, I was quite surprised to find that the down tubes are only originally tacked to the neck and as Kong stated it is the gusset that has the strength. I welded in 6mm plate with both external welds and internal as far as I could get them. I will slowly add photos to the gallery, but the end result as stated appears stock, I did not re-weld a further plate over the top. The photo above may be shocking but as I stated this is the fear factor. Again as I mentioned and Kong has repeated you have to make sure that evereything is level and make a lot of measurements and reference points. Remember that even making a jig you have to be spot on with your measurements as if you jig is out it could end up doubling your problems. I have been riding my bike since the rake for 6 months with no problems. But you have to be able to weld. Even with slugs etc you must ensure that your welds penetrate, I would further consider rosette welds to hold them in.

PS: I agree the bike with the workshop raked neck looks good, but to me it is all about $$$. If I cannot make it myself then it does not happen. That is what the terms old school and chopper are about.

vert306
28th February 2006, 16:38
"If I cannot make it myself then it does not happen. That is what the terms old school and chopper are about."



AMEN brother!~ the TV has made the word chopper something so retarded, it's sickening to see..big wallets who have a "chopper" to brag to their buddies about, that's not a chopper, 9ft long don't mean squat.

Moved On
28th February 2006, 16:48
Holy $hit would i be scared to ride a bike that's been raked like that. Rake it right and it won't let you down, rake it wrong and it's a matter of time before it will, oh yeah let you down.I'm no expert but I'd think if it's welded well and you trust the one that does the welds, than it shouldn't be any worse than a stock frame. We have so many critical welds on our stock bikes as it is that we trust everyday. I've never met the guy that does the welds at the factory so I'm trusting him blindly. Not sure how much smarter that is than trusting someone who I knew.

BTW: Anybody know how to weld? ;)

Gazza

mickm
3rd March 2006, 04:03
I just placed two more pictures on the gallery. I will probably not post any more on the subject unless anyone wants anymore details. As stated I only do what I can make or modify. My bike is not a show bike and had a hard life before I got it last year, it had been run on no oil, had caught on fire and wasn't cleaned in 5 yrs. It's no show bike, it's no rat, but it is a good bike to play with, make mine and not waste money on. I have since made my own mid controls, super wide 'z' bars and micro led rear directional lights that are concealed in screws holes. I intend to make my own exhaust. I am currently in the process of making a iron cross shaped oil tank. The reason for the new oil tank, and it may scare some people who have already made comments about being concerned for my safety, and if you have seen my head you know that I am good looking, is that I intend to continue with the line the tank makes, thus cutting the frame at the seat and lowering the seat height rearward hopefully by 1.5 to 2 inches. It will mean moving the battery and ignition module. The ignition module will end up with all other electrics hidden in the petrol tank channel. It will also mean making a new seat from scratch, ie pan and sew a cover myself. I have already done so for a mates softail. For those out there who intend to rake don't use raked trees, give it a go or get someone to do it for you but don't get scared by negative people.

Sportster1200
3rd March 2006, 05:39
My work in progress. Fender is not final, seat right now is a piece of foam for mockup. Lotsa work yet to go.

Apologize for the bad pic...

http://members.shaw.ca/mrkong/images/closer.jpg

RideoutKSC
3rd March 2006, 05:57
Good luck with your project.

To me, rakes are for leaves, not for my sporty.

rameses32
3rd March 2006, 13:44
Cut it, chop it, rake it, then ride the -I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!- out of it and do it again.:banana

Charley
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/rameses32/DCP_1924.jpg

xllent01
3rd March 2006, 18:40
I'm no expert but I'd think if it's welded well and you trust the one that does the welds, than it shouldn't be any worse than a stock frame. We have so many critical welds on our stock bikes as it is that we trust everyday. I've never met the guy that does the welds at the factory so I'm trusting him blindly. Not sure how much smarter that is than trusting someone who I knew.

BTW: Anybody know how to weld? ;)

Gazza

Big difference in the factory robot welds versus some hack who beads up a bunch of birdshit on a gusset plate holding a stress member of the frame together while your life depends on it. You may feel that's the right way of doing things, but for me being in the buisness that i do 2nd best don't cut it for me.:sorrysign

rameses32
3rd March 2006, 23:18
Big difference in the factory robot welds versus some hack who beads up a bunch of birdshit on a gusset plate holding a stress member of the frame together while your life depends on it. You may feel that's the right way of doing things, but for me being in the buisness that i do 2nd best don't cut it for me.:sorrysign


I agree that you really need to know what your doing when raking your frame, and knowing how to weld isn't enough, you also need to know what to weld, but by asking questions, learning from people in the know and patience, anybody can rake there own frame, or atleast find someone capable of doing it for you for an affordable price. Don't forget, alot of the money shops charge for raking frames, polishing bits, chromeing, and alot of other modifications, including paint, is charged for tear down, preparation, and reassembly. So if you don't feel safe cutting and welding your own bike, but want to do it on a budget, and be able to say you built it yourself, then talk to some shops and be prepared to get your hands dirty, cause the best way to learn anything is hands on.

But as for the quality of factory welds, well, thats definately up for debate, I cut up alot of factory frames that had some of the worst welds I have ever seen, some welds missing the seams completely, the design of the frames is what allows for this, also proving that not just any hack can design a safe, roadworthy frame.

Anyway, Just my opinion, have fun:)

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/rameses32/DCP_1924.jpg

mickm
4th March 2006, 01:23
Sportster1200, spot on. Exact look I am after, looks great. What did you do with your battery? I am planning on mounting /concealing it adjacent to the tank, probably cutting a section away. As stated looks great and I can easily visualise what I was going to do with the rear shocks.
And Charley good to see a nice sportster in Australia, love the exhaust. You must be up NSW?

I know my shocking photo has caused some controversy, and xcellent don't get me wrong I am not arguing with you. The positive about this, is that it has caused discussion which is good for all. I was reading an article in the Horse (august 04 page17) and here was a professionally built frame that had cracked on the back bone just before the neck. Hmmn no gusset just backbone and down tube. Oh well must be under warranty from the hmanufacturer.
I am not trying to be a smartarse with this comment, but since you're 'in the business', exactly how do you recommend to do the rake so that others can learn, no good showing me us a photo of your mates bike that was done by redneck eng and is completed (unless you are mr redneck eng then I give you credit). The thread started with someone seeking advice, I just put in my $2 (and I know that Australian money is worth anything) on how I went about it. I joined to learn not argue.

Stay positive and I don't want to be like anyone else:clap

rameses32
4th March 2006, 02:11
I agree with ya mate, here is a pic of my bike, mid rake, again, it was a 2 day process costing about $15AU for paint. And to really scare people, it is oxy welded, ack, oh my, what a death trap AAAHHHHHH!, but really, tig and Oxy are the strongest forms of welding. And it now has 6000 smooth Australian miles on it. And being from Australia you know how smooth the roads are around Sydney. :doh

Have fun
Charley

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/rameses32/DCP_1260.jpg

mickm
5th March 2006, 08:01
Nice work Charley. Its good to see some nice bikes, and thanks for those who at least gave some positive comments. I hope the comments are of help to you frebirdchop? Good luck with whatever you do, just don't scared off. Do a lot of research and hopefully we all get educated by xllent, who always tells us that none of us can be like him.

Talking of research I looked at xllent's gallery, although not my taste of bike, I will comment that his bike does look good. It's all horses for courses. He must have a lot of OE equipment out there for sale on Ebay, or spareparts to make another bike.

Also while looking at his photo's I noticed nothing has been chopped i.e cut! Just bolt ons. Maybe he should change his motto from "chop it" to "swap it".

Maybe the only part he has 'chopped' is the plastic packet to get his new shiny piece out?

He must have learnt a hell of a lot since October 05 since his thread about 'chopped sporty link' when he was seeking advice from rottenralph which I will reproduce;

R, how hard is it to convert to wide glide trees with the custom wheel that i'm running up front. Do i need just bigger spacers for the wheel? or is it more involved than that. Looking to do the trees first with about a 5-6 degree rake to set the wheel out a little farther than stock. Then when the time comes that sucker is getting chopped and the frame is going to get extended 3" out.

And him making the comment he 'is in the business' So what is he in the business of? Selling t shirts for OCC?

By the way pictures of his mates bike are there again, but at least he discloses this time, as can be seen in the photo is that there is 6degree of rake in the tree.

PS What ever you do after you get it raked, get a mate to test ride it first, because at least if it falls apart down the road he is already there to help you carry the bike back.
PPS I will probably get kicked off this forum after these comments, so have fun.


Mick

mickm
6th March 2006, 00:28
O'kay, I have had my say and nothing more will be said by me. (after this)

I am not a master builder, baiter maybe because you xllent have taken the bait... hook, line and sinker. (finished)

I am just a poor person with a hacksaw (I do have a sawsall but I think it is a shit tool), grinder, some welders, files, pen, paper, some thoughts and a lot of sweat. I enjoy chopping and making because it makes my bike mine. I am proud of what I make not what I can buy. My bike has aluminum which when oxidises I get a little polish on and clean, it doesn't kill me.

Since this thread is Chop Chop, and I know I am off the initial topic, I whacked some pics on of some z bars I cut up from 1inch tube, superwide at just on a metre, means no more riding between cars through peak traffic. Cost me a whopping $50 to make and chrome. For those who care they were stick welded as I did not have a tig at the time, just meant a lot more time with the file. It was a bugger to do the internal wiring due to the reverse angles. I ended up ripping both my hands open with the leader.

Kong, I take it that you used a sealed or gel battery? Tomorrow I will put a picture on of the oil tank I have tacked up. Although it is an iron cross shape, I am not really into those shapes, I was just doing it to take the piss out of my mate. I seem to be good at taking the piss out of people. (at least he laughs)

I'll also post some mid controls I made up, no construction pics, just the end result.

Mick

MOREHP
6th March 2006, 01:17
God bless ya, I don't have the tools or the talent to chop my frame up, thats why I bolted mine on,took me 6 months of overtime to save the money for the kit. I admire and respect anybody with talent and the balls to chop and rake their frame, you should be thankful you got the skills. I will also say that I would never compare my front end kit to a guy who has chopped and welded and grinded his front end into what he wants. There is no comparison no matter what the cost. Something that comes out of a box can never compared to something someone has made with their hands.

mickm
6th March 2006, 03:55
Yeah, but credit to you MOREHP is that you are honest. I read your profile and read about your bike and how you pulled it down. If/when I get to that stage I would respect any comments you make to me because at least I would know that you wouldn't be bullshitting me. And without knowing you I would be pretty sure you would not be the type of guy to criticise but then not justify your comments. I am not a purest and it doesn't make it better if it is cut / bolted or swapped, or how much or how little you can spend, as long as you have fun. I didn't mind those AME kits, but over here they are about $4000. I only paid $4000 for the bike.

Mick

Sportster1200
6th March 2006, 04:28
Morehp,

I don't really care if you did it yourself or not. As long as you're truthful I have no objections. Just don't rag on me for the way I did it.

Tell me how you did it - just don't knock me for what I did. If you have a positive suggestion, let me know. If you have a better way, let me know.

If you just want to be a prick - keep your comments to yourself.

MickM - I always have wanted to visit Australia. If the majority of the people down there are like you, I know I would fit in.

Kong

mickm
6th March 2006, 04:34
Kong, It's like a bag of liquorce allsorts down here. It must be us people living in Commonwealth countries, if you're ever down this way let me know and I will show you around, but your land looks nicer.

Sportster1200
6th March 2006, 04:40
MickM,

You are welcome up here whenever you get the chance.

Rameses - thanks for the support.

Kong

mickm
15th September 2010, 22:22
Just had a laugh, read this thread that was posted 6 years ago. To those that never got to read the original thread a lot of it was removed / deleted (the best bits i.e. the funny bits where someone suffered a melt down) and a world war was starting. But just to let you know, 6 years on the neck hasn't fallen off the bike and I hope the image has helped someone else tempt chopping their bike.. So remember don't believe all the experts out there in computer land!

And like Kong I have now cut the rear of the bike off as well and dropped the seat.

Mickm 2010

jonnybravo
18th September 2010, 00:39
here is a much better site than Club Chopper, no attitude and significantly more info

http://64.172.168.34/neatstuff/index.html

Chopper Builders

if its been done they know all about it

BOB ROSS
21st September 2010, 20:39
MickM go for it. looks good you know your work. and you know if you trust it or not.

bob

mickm
22nd September 2010, 04:06
Thanks, as stated it has been done for a number of years now and there was no issues, it is really no different than all those who weld on the hard tails.