Last weekend (10 days ago) at a swap meet, I picked up a set of slightly used Andrews N2 cams for $100. It cost me another $60 to get the gaskets and seals necessary to do the job. $160 seemed like it would be worth the effort.

I installed the cams over the course of the past week. The install was very straight forward, except for the part where I was supposed to measure the end play on the camshafts. I stuck a feeler gauge down the lifter tube, and the tube seemed to be about 8 feet deep. Maybe I need longer feeler gauges or something, but I gave up trying to get a measurement.

I fired it up on Saturday and everything seemed fine. The engine kicked right over and I had some expected noise from the lifters until they got pumped back up. I took a short spin just to make sure everything was functional and put it away. I got it out again yesterday and went for a 50 mile ride. The high yesterday was 36, so 50 miles was about my limit, even with electric gloves.

The bike runs smooth, the cam chest is quiet, no misfires, no noises, no pinging, everything is perfect... except that I really can't tell that I changed anything. Don't get me wrong, the bike is very strong, but it was very strong before I installed the N2's. I suppose that the dyno would show the difference, but I'm not sure I can really feel it.

My bike is a 1997 1200 with a K&N intake (round SE off a Softail), a Thunderheader, and a stock CV tuned to the nth degree. I set the timing right back where it was before I started.

According to my Dynojet kit documentation, I should up the main jet one size after installing cams, but I haven't done that yet. And I'm also wondering if my Thunderheader is too much of a mid-range pipe to get max gains out of the low-end N2's. Maybe I'd feel more pull if I had staggered duals or something.

Any thoughts?

I think this is the reason why guys like Stevo don't recommend going with the N2's....

It's not because they are bad cams, just that they aren't really much bigger than the stockers and the minimal performance gain you get with them isn't really worth the effort.

yeah, stevo says the N2's are not worth the hassle of cam replacement. I went with V-4 (N-4) and we'll see about those when they're done.

Hmm... hopefully my N8s will be a bigger difference... though how I am supposed to tell how much is the cam and how much is the new cubes, I'll never know :banana

N2s are very mild and like Steveo I would not waste the time installing them for the little if any gain you will get.

N2's are very simiar to the W grind

They have a bit more overlap and can benefit from some fine tuning on the exhaust and inlet side...

But, as said, I don't think they're worth the money or effort for the minimal gains ya may get....


I would expect more gains from good headwork alone .... and if really want a bit more then a set of N4/SE bolt-ins

Thanks for the feedback.

Everybody always says "skip the N2 and go for the N4". Well, based on the following dyno chart comparing the two, why would I pick the N4 if I wanted the large torque advantage of the N2 under 4500 rpm AND if I didn't really care about the small HP advantage of the N4 above 5000 rpm? I don't understand why everyone says the N4 is so much better, especially when my bike will only rev to about 5500 anyway.

http://www.sportster.org/tech/cams/N2vsN4.jpg

What you are not seeing in that dyno chart though is how would a set of stock cams compare to the N2s? If you are only interested in the low rpm performance you probably would like the stock cams even more than the N2s.

Personally I feel that any cam less than an SE 536 is too small. But then again I also think everybody should have at least 100rwhp as well!:lolsign

Are the N-4 cams a bolt in type. I was thinking of getting a set of cams put in this year. are there anyother mods needed other than carb jetting??

Mike

Are the N-4 cams a bolt in type. I was thinking of getting a set of cams put in this year. are there anyother mods needed other than carb jetting??

Mike
N-4s are pretty much the same thing as the SE .497s they are both bolt-in cams. most likely no other mods needed but clearance checking is always advised thogh I've never actually heard of anyone having a piston to valve issue with stock or commonly used parts

Thanks for the feedback.

Everybody always says "skip the N2 and go for the N4". Well, based on the following dyno chart comparing the two, why would I pick the N4 if I wanted the large torque advantage of the N2 under 4500 rpm AND if I didn't really care about the small HP advantage of the N4 above 5000 rpm? I don't understand why everyone says the N4 is so much better, especially when my bike will only rev to about 5500 anyway.

http://www.sportster.org/tech/cams/N2vsN4.jpg

Trout ... your chart shows strong evidence of a low rpm reversion from the exhaust system. See that big torque dip at 3K rpm? That's the pipe pushing back.

The N4's have more overlap than the N2, thus they give the exhaust a bigger opportunity to affect intake flow.

If the pipe was pulling right then instead of pushing back, you may well see more power at that rpm.

If you're married to that exhaust, then absolutely, you're better off with less overlap.

The stock cams have only 4 degrees over overlap. N2's have 40 degrees. N4's have 54 degrees.

A Cam Change In A Simi Stock Bike Is Usually A Waste Of Time.
Do A Whole Package, Comp, Head Work Etc And It Will Make More Power. Rember The Stock Cam Will Prolly Make The Most Low End Torque You Feel On A Every Day Ride.
Cams Do Strange Things To Intake And Exhaust Tuning Also On A V Twin Engine.

Trout ... your chart shows strong evidence of a low rpm reversion from the exhaust system. See that big torque dip at 3K rpm? That's the pipe pushing back.

The N4's have more overlap than the N2, thus they give the exhaust a bigger opportunity to affect intake flow.

If the pipe was pulling right then instead of pushing back, you may well see more power at that rpm.

If you're married to that exhaust, then absolutely, you're better off with less overlap.

The stock cams have only 4 degrees over overlap. N2's have 40 degrees. N4's have 54 degrees.

Just to clarify, that's not my dyno chart... it's one that's posted on sportster.org, but I think it's great reference material.

I expected to feel a seat of the pants difference in the 2000-4000 rpm range, since that's where my tach sits 99% of the time.

After further research, reviewing the various exhaust and cam charts and graphs available on sportster.org and other places on the internet, I believe that my Thunderheader is "giving up" as many as 13 ft lbs of torque in that 2k-4k range when compared to certain other 2:2 exhaust systems. I agree with you about what you said about my exhaust (and no, I'm not married to it). I should be able to feel a 13 ft lb boost. I have access to some exhaust systems that I intend to try. I'll post the results.

As far as the other suggestions to go with a complete package, etc., I agree that this is a good idea for maximum horsepower, which is not my goal. I just want to make the most of what I have in the 2k-4k street cruising range.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not necessarily unhappy with the N2, I just expected more. We'll see if an exhaust change will get me closer to what I was after in the first place.

I corresponded with another guy on another forum, and he is quite happy with his N2's.

I was originally told NOT to do cams, that I'd be happy with stockers in a 1200.

But being the type of person I am where I feel that "stock sucks", I had to change cams.
When my bike was an 883, I used to tack it to the moon all the time. Partly to get it moving, and partly for the sheer enjoyment of it.

I may ride my 1200 that way (after break-in ofcourse), sn I wanted a cam that I can feel at 5-6k rpm.

I chose a relatively "mild" street cam in my Chevy 383 stroker motor. The thjing still pulls past 5k, I just run out of gears...

Trout ... your chart shows strong evidence of a low rpm reversion from the exhaust system. See that big torque dip at 3K rpm? That's the pipe pushing back.

The N4's have more overlap than the N2, thus they give the exhaust a bigger opportunity to affect intake flow.

If the pipe was pulling right then instead of pushing back, you may well see more power at that rpm.

If you're married to that exhaust, then absolutely, you're better off with less overlap.

The stock cams have only 4 degrees over overlap. N2's have 40 degrees. N4's have 54 degrees.


Would a set of "torque cones" help with that situation?

Trout,

Your Thunderheader is not the problem. Before you go and buy other pipes, put it on the dyno and watch your air fuel ratio's carefully. ALSO, pull your a/c off and ride it and watch for any signs of gas being blown out of the carb throat.

I run the SE 497 cams and the Thunderheader is what fixed a huge problem I had with reversion.

The thing you are most upset about is that the N2's did not give you a seat of the pants increase in power. The fact is that N2's are not going to do much over the stock D grind cams on a stage one 1200. On a dyno you might see a little gain in the 2500 to 4000 rpm range, but I doubt you are going to feel it.

Also, I caution you to stay away from N4's or SE 497's with stock compression. That combination (9:1 compression and intake valve timing) will really put a dip in your low rpm power.

If you're looking for punch under 3500 then a 2-1 system will rarely give you that as most tend to dip about 2700-3000


The problem with any engine is you can't compare one cam to another if other things are set up to favour one particualr cams timing events...

The whole engine is a SYSTEM and must be treated as such..

N2's don't tend to give a great deal of increase over stock cams but can be made to make more usuable power down low with the right intake and exhaust tuning and harmonics.... the old Kerker 2-2 with the cross-over worked well with N2's if ya lengthened the inlet tract by about 1".... some decent headwork is also more than helpfull.


There is NO easy fix ... other than to get someone who knows what they're doin to do the whole package ... but as soon as you change one part you may stuff it up..

Liken it to an orchestra .... it only takes one instrument to be off key for it to sound terrible ....... never mind if ya got half the orchestra tryin to play a different song....

Here is my 04 1200R with a set of N2's and N3's. The green is N3 and the red is N2. This is just for comparison. The n3;s made a noticeable difference in the midrange with only a 1hp drop up top.
http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/s.jpg

Here is my 04 1200R with a set of N2's and N3's. The green is N3 and the red is N2. This is just for comparison. The n3;s made a noticeable difference in the midrange with only a 1hp drop up top.

Those are nice torque curves.

Just curious... what exhaust did you have on that bike?

Cycle shack slipons when these were run. Also had the heads done form the place on the dyno name.

The specs shown on the N3's aren't right. The actual specs are on Andrews website.

Ok, I hate to admit that maybe I was a little premature in my assessment of the new cams, but I was.

After spending some time re-tuning the carb and spending a few hours in warmer weather getting used to the bike's new personailty, I take back what I said about not feeling any performance gain.

The bike does pull harder through the entire rpm range, which for me, ends at about 5500 rpm since I still have the stock ignition. I've learned to hang on with my left pinkie and ring fingers while pulling the clutch with my index and middle fingers when in "drag race mode", else I have trouble holding on to the bike. I've spent the past few days burning the last of the rubber off of my worn out BT45V's. It's easy for me to get the rear wheel to spin, both when taking of and when shifting gears, but I haven't figured out how to wheelie yet.

I'm happy with my $160 investment and would do it all over again.

Glad to hear that you're happy with the cams after all.