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HD1200R
2nd February 2005, 22:21
I'm fed up with being limited by the cylinder heads that I have and currently debating over which cylinder head to go with.

The performance parts that I have for the bike are as follows:
1200cc SE High Compression or SE Flat Top Pistons
Andrews N4 cams
V&H SS2R Exhaust
S&S Shorty E Carb
V-Thunder HypreFyre Ignition w/Software
Crane Single Fire Coil
Jims Roller Rockers (stock)

How much more would I benefit using your Stage 3 heads over the Stage 2? Will I be able to use the high compression pistons with the Stage 2? Would I be able to change cams if the Stage 3 heads are made specifically for the N4 cams?

What I'm looking for out of the bike is mid to upper range performance. Where I live, the average speed is mostly 55mph or has curves and I don't mind downshifting if necessary.

Any other suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan

aswracing
3rd February 2005, 15:15
Are we talking about 91-03 XL1200 heads?

With N4's and those heads, I'd recommend Stage 2. You need to go to that level to get those ports to work well enough take good advantage of those cams.

If, however, you're talking about upgrading to an 04-05 XL1200 head, I'd actually say stay at Stage 1 with those cams, or any other bolt-in. It's not enough cam to take good advantage of Stage 2 or 3 in this casting. If you have more cam in mind, then yes, it makes sense to go to there.

Much of the advantage of bigger valves at Stage 2 or 3 comes in when you lift them more. You really see this on the flow bench. If you're not going to lift them more, it's hard to justify the expense.

Yes, you can use high compression pistons at Stage 2, no problem.

If you're doing a Stage 3, best to tell me the cams you have in mind in the end. There are things we do in the ports to optimize around a grind, and on some grinds valve to valve becomes an issue, we need to be able to check and adjust it. All that comes in at Stage 3, the heads are custom to the application.

Stage 2 is an off-the-shelf head that works well over a range of medium performance cams (bigger than bolt0in, but nothing real big). Stage 3 is custom configured for the cams, but most people only go there when they're looking at larger grinds.

Another issue is the springs. We like to spring the head appropriately for the cams. More spring pressure than necessary is a bad thing. But later if you want to put in more cam, it may not be the correct set of springs anymore.

In summary, how the heads are set up and the cams you intend to use go together. It's best if you match them.

stevo
3rd February 2005, 15:25
Another issue is the springs. We like to spring the head appropriately for the cams. More spring pressure than necessary is a bad thing. But later if you want to put in more cam, it may not be the correct set of springs anymore.

In summary, how the heads are set up and the cams you intend to use go together. It's best if you match them.

Good to see someone else make this point.... I've never been a fan of over springing a valve.. as it takes HP to push the spring down and puts excessive load and wear on the valve train...

If ya can save 1/2 HP in 4 spots ya got yaself another 2 for free. :clap

I try to aim for just enough plus a small safety margin..

unfortunately it sometimes takes a bit to convince customers to take the 3rd spring out of S&S heads, when they only have a smallish cam.....

HD1200R
3rd February 2005, 16:35
Wow! Awesome info there! The bike is a 93 and I do want to move up in cam size. My goal is to get the most hp out of a 1200cc bike as possible. What cams would you suggest going with if using the Stage 3 Heads?

aswracing
3rd February 2005, 17:51
Hey HD, glad to help. Most power possible? You sound just like me! I love twisting the grip and having the bike scare me.

Think big lift and Stage 3 in an XB or 04-05 XL1200 head. 30 degree chambers and 11:1. We've had tremendous success with this approach.

Choose the rpm range by the intake close event.

Some suggestions: Wood W9BS, Red Shift 585's or 643's.

But there are some caveats here. First and foremost, I highly recommend you lose those 91-03 XL1200 castings. The 04-05 head puts material in some critical places in the ports and chambers and we can make a much better head out of them. I hate to see anyone pour money into a casting that just limits us too much, which the 91-03 casting does.

The other thing you have to always keep in mind is that the power of the motor is not defined by the heads, or the cams, or the sum total of them or any other performance parts you have hanging on your bike. It's defined by the part that's holding it back. The theory of constraints very much applies to engines and power. I can send you a set of heads that'll support 130hp, but if you hang an 80hp pipe on it, it's gonna make 80hp, and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. Always work on the thing that's holding your motor back, putting money into anything else is a waste.

HD1200R
3rd February 2005, 19:40
Would the XB or 04/05 XL heads fit a 91 - 03 Sportster? Sounds like I just need to finish the current bike up with what parts I have and look at getting a new Buell or Sportster to get what I am looking for.

aswracing
3rd February 2005, 21:55
Yes, they fit the older bikes, just a couple minor details to work out. We have a page of info on them here:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/partsoemheads.shtml

I like all Sporties, but I gotta admit, this rubber mount one is the best one I've ever owned or ridden. Maybe I'm getting old and soft.

Shamdog
4th February 2005, 01:13
Another silly question from yours truely.

When you bore an 883 out to 1200, don't you have to do work on the heads? Something about the squish band, I think. How much does that cost, along with installing the 1200 valves?

aswracing
4th February 2005, 14:39
Well, if you make a motor bigger, and leave the chambers the same size, the compression ratio goes too high on you. That's because compression ratio is the total volume above the piston at BDC divided by the total volume above the piston at TDC. When you increase the displacement, the volume above the piston at BDC goes up the same amount, but unless you do something with the chamber or piston doime, the volume above the piston at TDC doesn't change much. Hence the CR climbs.

So you've got to address this when you do a conversion. The simplest way is to use what we call a "conversion piston", which is a reverse dome design. Lemme see if I have a picture on my website ... yep, look at the dome on these pistons:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/silver1250conversionkitsmall.jpg

So that's one way to do it. Another way is what you mention, to make the chamber bigger, and couple this with a flat top piston. Few people go this route, though, because it's more costly than just using conversion pistons, and there are some other issues with it as well.

The third way is to get heads made for a 1200 and pair them with a flat top or domed piston, basically making it just like a factory 1200. The reason this way is popular is that the small valves in an 883 head limit their power capability. 883 heads all have 1.585" iintakes and 1.350" exhausts. 91-03 XL 1200 heads, and all the Lightning/Screaming Eagle heads, have 1.715" intakes and 1.480" exhausts. Thunderstorms, XB, and 04-05 XL1200 heads have 1.810" intakes and 1.575" exhausts. A set of heads for a 1200 doesn't really cost much different than having your 883 heads prepared, and these new 1200 heads on the 04-05 models are the best they've made so far, even better than the Thunderstorms.

Shamdog
4th February 2005, 15:09
So how much HP/torque would a reverse dome piston w/883 heads on an '05 make?

I'm asking because after I took my sister for a ride on my 1200, she keeps trying to buy my bike. I'm thinking a new 883 for her to start on, then the 1200 conversion. Just trying to get a handle the cost/trouble/benefits.

Thanks.

aswracing
4th February 2005, 15:20
Easy question to answer! Look at the "Project 04 883" thread in this section. There's a dyno sheet that shows exactly how my '04 883 has responded to incremental changes.

Shamdog
7th February 2005, 15:24
I saw it. But that's without head work. My question is, and you don't have to be exact, is what's the benefit of going to the bigger valves and how much more does that cost?

aswracing
7th February 2005, 16:06
Sham, I'm sorry, it's not clear to me what you're asking. Are you asking about using prepared 883 heads with conversion pistons? And asking if it's worthwhile in that scenario to increase the valve size?

Confused89
7th February 2005, 16:17
I think he is asking what would it cost to do work on 883 heads and how much power would it make with the 1200 conversion kit. I could be wrong, but I think that is what he is asking.

Shamdog
7th February 2005, 16:19
Just wondering wheather it's cost effective to put the 1200 valves into the 883 heads when doing a conversion.

aswracing
7th February 2005, 19:05
Sham,

Here's the deal ...

91-03 1200 heads came with 1.715" intake and 1.480" exhaust valves with 5/16 stems.

91-03 883 heads came with 1.585" intake and 1.350" exhaust valves with 5/16 stems. These valves are also a little longer to accomodate a lower chamber roof in the 883 head.

You can buy a "conversion valve" for these 91-03 883 heads, which is the 1200 sizes (1.715 & 1.480) but with the longer stem needed by the 883 head. The seats in the heads can be cut out to accomodate these larger valves, there's enough room in the 883 head's smaller diameter chamber, and it's a popular thing to do.

For 2004-2005, 1200 heads now come with 1.810" intakes and 1.575" exhausts. These are the same sizes as the Thunderstorm heads came with, except these are 7mm stems (Thunderstorms are 5/16).

2004-2005 883 heads continue to use the tiny little 1.585" intakes and 1.350" exhaust valves though, albeit now with 7mm stems. The stock seats cannot accomodate the new 1200 valve sizes.

So the concept of a "conversion valve" in the new 883 head is a little different. Putting a 2004-2005 1200 sized valve into a 2004-2005 883 head requires major surgery to the heads (seats, chamber work).

A person could convert the new 883 heads to the "old" 1200 valve sizes. If you switch to 5/16 stems the valves are readily available to do this. 'Course, you'd need matching guides, guide seals, springs, locks, and retainers, because your stock 7mm stuff won't work anymore.

If you want to stay in 7mm, though, you may need a custom valve. I called Kibblewhite (Black Diamond), they're the big name in 91-03 conversion valves, and they don't offer a 7mm version of it, although they do have stock size 7mm 883 valves. You can get anything made, but the cost goes up. They're going to call me back with a quote. I have some other sources as well who will make customs for me.

Probably going to be a couple hundred in parts either way you go. Labor for an oversize valve conversion, with valve job, is $82.50 per head. So it adds up. You're getting close to what a Stage 1 porting job costs, and I can get more out of the head by porting it with the stock valves than by increasing the valve size and leaving it unported.

In terms of what to expect, that's the idea of this '04 Sporty project I'm messing with. Stage 1 is next (stock valve sizes), then I'll do a Stage 2 to the heads with bigger valves in stock seats. So standby for the real answer.

Shamdog
7th February 2005, 19:34
Just what I was asking. I'll keep an eye on your project.

HD1200R
31st March 2005, 13:39
Been thinking about it and have completely decided to give the new Sportster heads a shot. Currently saving money up foro them too. :) I have another question though. Is there any difference between the Buell XB12R heads and the Sportster 1200 heads?

If I go with the stage 2 heads, will the price of the new heads include matching the pistons to the heads for the correct compression ratio?

With the new sportster cylinders.. Will they also work on the pre 04 motors?

aswracing
31st March 2005, 15:10
Good choice!

The new 1200 heads and the Buell XB head (same head on the XB9 & XB12) have identical ports, chambers, valve sizes, springs, etc. The differences between the heads are 1) finish, the Buell head is silver and the 1200 head is black with highlighted fins, 2) breather bolt holes, the XB head doesn't have them and the 1200 head does, although we add them to the XB head for no charge if the heads are bought from us, and 3) the rear XB head has a facility for a head temp sensor and the 1200 head does not. Other than those things, the heads are identical.

Technically, chamber work is an add-on at Stage 2 and included at Stage 3. In certain cases we do it anyway. For example, it's almost impossible to do a Stage 2 job to a Lightning head or even a 91-03 XL1200 head without shrouding the valves badly. Hell, the factory valves are shrouded, fit a new larger valve and you just aggravate the issue. So we go ahead and unshroud, and then of course the chamber size isn't right, so we resize it. We end up doing the chamber work and toss it in even at Stage 2, but that's what we've got to do to make the bigger valves work. No point putting them in if they don't work!

BUT ... the same is not true of an XB/04XL1200 head, or even a Thunderstorm for that matter. The chambers are much better and accomodate the bigger valves well. And particularly with the XB & 04 heads, there's a lot better consistency in chamber volume as delivered from HD. So we fit up the bigger valves and they're not shrouded and the chamber volume is still right. If you use our XB12/04 XL1200 piston, the compression ratio will be real close to correct. Where we end up doing chamber work to the new heads is when the customer wants an angled squish band or a custom compression ratio (something other than the 10.5:1 or so that most people go with). Angling the squish band does make for a little better chamber, as it removes some of the shelf the air has to go around as it enters and exits the chamber, and it also directs the fuel coming out of the squish band more directly at the flame front. We put a lot of guys into Thunderstorm type 15 degree domed pistons with the new heads, and cut the chamber to match. Some folks go all the way to 30 degree domes, that's what I've got in my M2 for example. But you give up squish band surface area at 30 degrees unless you make the dome bigger. It's best for a little higher compression ratio.

I'll be honest with you, I haven't actually tried to put an '04 cylinder on a 91-03. Gone the other way, but not that way. The cylinder is really the same except for the fin size. So as long as there isn't any inteference between say the fins and the starter, or the fins and the case deck in the rear corners, or something like that, it'll work fine. Worst case you'd have to do some clearancing.

Tell you what, though, I personally wouldn't mess with it. The fins are mostly bigger in the north/south direction, i.e. longitudanally on the bike. Look at any 04 or 05, on the left side, you'll see that even stock, the fins on the heads are bigger and overhang the cylinder quite a bit. You can stick the new heads on the old cylinders and it really doesn't look much different, because the areas where the fin sizes mismatch worse aren't really the visible areas. Looks fine.

Sorry for the lengthy response, sometimes I find it hard to give the reader's digest version. I'd never make it as a salesman ;)

Confused89
31st March 2005, 16:37
Easy question to answer! Look at the "Project 04 883" thread in this section. There's a dyno sheet that shows exactly how my '04 883 has responded to incremental changes.

:cry1 I can't find it. Please help me. :helpsign
And it continues on. If the xb heads do create more power than a t-storm head then how much power could a 1200 with the factory xb heads and a (mild) .500 lift cam make. Could someone point towards a dyno sheet. Any help would be much appreciated.

SkippyRay
31st March 2005, 17:56
Great info!!!!!!!!!!

pquirk
31st March 2005, 21:49
:cry1 I can't find it. Please help me. :helpsign
And it continues on. If the xb heads do create more power than a t-storm head then how much power could a 1200 with the factory xb heads and a (mild) .500 lift cam make. Could someone point towards a dyno sheet. Any help would be much appreciated.
Here ya go Confused (http://www.xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2186&highlight=project)

Confused89
1st April 2005, 00:04
You don't know how much that cleared up for me. It is like I see the light now. Most of my questions were about basic horsepower gain numbers. To me it was just a question of wether or not heads are worth it for me. $ vs. Hp. gains. Now I see that it would be worth it and give me two years to accumulate the money but I will have different heads on my bike.

HD1200R
1st April 2005, 03:24
Thanks! I rather be overloaded with info since it makes me ask more questions and recieve the correct awnsers. http://xlforum.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

The reason why I asked about the newer sportster cylinders is because I'm curious about the how the oil cooling system that they have set up on those bikes. From what I understand, the new motors have squirters that shoot oil into the underside of the piston for cooling purposes. I don't know how they are doing this but have heard of some modified engines having minute oil holes that are drilled into the piston sleaves so that oil would be constantly shot to the underside of the piston. This info has only been word of mouth and have not seen any proof of this. It just sparked my interest and made me curious about the oiling system and how it works.

My other curiosity was also the fins on the cylinders. Not really for looks but for cooling. I'm curious if the new cylinder design dissapates more heat than the 91-03 cylinders. It's probably more worthwhile to get the SE oil cooler instead.

With the pistons.. I currently am running the SE flat tops in the bike and would like to make use of the SE high compression pistons since they are sitting here collecting dust. They are made to bump the compression on a stock 1200 to 10.5:1. From what I understand, the XB12 motors are currently running 10.5:1 but I don't know what pistons are in them. If the pistons are flat tops in the XB motors and I install the HC pistons, would it cause a clearance issue and require the heads to be matched to the pistons? What about compression?

http://www.hr3rdgen.org/gallery/data/3067/280Project_Sportster_Code_Puzzle_032.jpg

I'm currently stuck using the cast piston that is to the left and hoping to be able to use the forged piston on the right that has a slight dome to it The dome is what has me concerned since it sits above the cylinder at TDC.

aswracing
1st April 2005, 05:53
The oil squirters are actually built into the engine case. They take oil from the tappet area and squirt it up on the underside of the piston. All the 04's and up have them, as well as the Buell XB's and even newer Twin Cams. But there's nothing special about the cylinder to accomodate it, at least not with a stock spigot size. When we do big bores that require case boring, we have to use a cylinder that has a relief cut in it.

I can't tell for sure from the pic, but if that piston is like all the others I've ever seen made for the full hemi chamber of the 03 and earlier 1200 heads (including Hurricanes), it'll have a rounded dome perimeter. Cutting a chamber to match that dome would be problematic, and even if you could figure out how to do it well, it wouldn't be a good chamber when you got done. Not a lot of squish area and you really don't want the fuel turning a corner as it comes out of the squish band. You're really much better off with an angled dome or even the factory flat top, something that gives lots of squish area and a straight shot and results in lots of chamber turbulence. Sorry that's not the answer I'd like to give.

Also you have to be careful putting '03 and earlier pistons into '04 and newer bikes, just because of the squirter issue. Some pistons don't have clearance in the right place and they'll run into the squirter. That piston on the left might even do it. I've heard from people who had this happen with a factory Thunderstorm pistons in an '04. Ours clear fine, though.

HD1200R
1st April 2005, 07:00
Thanks for clearing up the oil squirters. Makes a lot better sense now than listening to people who don't know these motors.

With the pistons. I guess I should call them a raised flat top. It looks like they are supposed to fill in a little bit of the combustion chamber in the pre 03 cylinder heads to bump the compression from 9.0 to 10.5:1. I'm guessing that the raised flat tops would bump the 10:1 compression on the buell heads up 1.5 points. Was the combustion chamber also redesigned for the 04+ models? Or did they just use different gaskets or lower the deck height on the 04+ to raise the compression?

I wish I could bring the pistons over for you to see but living over on the east coast puts a quick halt on that thought. :( Looks like the best that I can do is just get the heads and see if the pistons will work. If not, I'll just stick with the flat tops and ebay the high compression ones.

I hope you don't mind me picking your brain. I just don't want to spend anymore unnecessary money for this project to be correct. With not knowing these new motors, it has me very curious yet cautious at the same time.

Thanks for all of the knowledge that you have been sharing.

aswracing
1st April 2005, 17:36
The stock XB & 2004 XL1200 head has a bathtub chamber with 0 degree (flat) squish bands:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/xbhead.jpg

These chambers are 62cc which gives 10:1 or so with a flat top (depending on the tolerance stackup).

The dome shape that works with these chambers is the one on the right in this picture:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/3pistonssmall.jpg

That's an 10.5:1 XB9 piston. It can be used in a 1200 (same bore size & pin height) but the compression ratio ends up being north of 12:1. We have a version with a smaller dome that gives 10.5:1 at 1200cc.

While this design of 2 flat squish bands is reasonably good, it has a downside when used with a domed piston. As the piston comes up to TDC and squeezes the fuel out of the squish band, it shoots out horizontally and runs into that dome. Well, the air is lighter than the fuel so it turns the corner easier (notice how we radius that corner) but some of the fuel separates. This taxes the octane of the fuel. It's not terrible, and lots of people run this kind of a setup where a dome obstructs the squish flow and don't have problems, but an angled squish band is a better way to do it.

See the piston on the left? That's a Thunderstorm type 15 degree domed piston. Naturally you can't put that into a chamber with flat squish bands, but you *can* carve the chamber to match it:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/xbstage2headssmall.jpg

We do this quite frequently because like I said, it's actually a little better way to do it, angling the squish bands has advantages. Sometimes we go all the way to 30 degrees:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/xl1200rstage3.jpg

These are '04 XL1200 heads, the chamber originally looked just like the first picture I posted. There's a 30 degree piston that goes with this. The 30 degree angle is close to the valve angles so this gives the best unshrouding of the chamber along with shooting the fuel more directly at the flame front. The downside to this over the 15 degree setup is that it gives up squish band surface area unless you also run a larger dome. So it tends to be used at higher compression ratios.

There's actually been other things done in this chamber as well, like heavy unshrouding of the valves, and we dual plugged them.

Anyway, the bottom line here wrt to your pistons and making them work with these new style heads is the dome angle and height. What I was getting at before is that on every piston I've ever seen that's designed for the 03 and older 1200 chamber (a hemi shape with no squish band), including our Hurricanes, the edge of the dome isn't an angle, but instead a radius, and also it's pulled in from the edge of the piston a bit. It was never designed to provide a squish band, only to take up space in the chamber. So if you wanted to do that in a new head, you're talking about carving out the chamber, and either matching that radius to match the dome, or eliminate the squish band altogether and do it as a hemi chamber ala the '03 chamber. Either one is problematic to do, although with a properly sized ball mill in a CNC machine it could be done. But neither one would perform as well as a regular angled squish band.

So the bottom line here is look at the perimeter of the dome. Is it radiused, or does it come away from the edge of the piston in a straight line? If it's straight, what's the angle, away from the horizontal? Popular angles are 10, 15, 20, and 30 degrees. And how tall is the dome? Those things will dictate whether it's feasible and/or desirable to carve the new heads to match.

Confused89
1st April 2005, 19:42
So lets say I get a 10:1 1200 kit from V-Twin manufacturing with the reverse dome pistons. The compression would be lower than 10:1 with the XB heads and will the pistons that come with the kit works just fine. I don't want to waste anymore of your time but a simple yes or no to answer the questions would more than enough for me.

aswracing
1st April 2005, 23:15
I sure wouldn't do that. Stock 883 chamber size is 49cc. Stock XB chamber size is 62cc. Instead of 10:1 CR, you'll get about 8.5:1. You're gonna lose a lot of performance. Plus, the shape of the conversion piston's dish isn't going to match the shape of the XB head chamber. It wouldn't work well.

A lot of people have tremendous success with a set of high quality forged pistons precisely fitted to their stock cylinders, y'know. Done properly, you get a better fit than production line stuff, resulting in better ring seal and longer life. Plus most vendors will put you into whatever dome configuration & CR you want, some will even cut chambers to match ;)

HD1200R
2nd April 2005, 00:28
So what would it cost to get the heads below with a set of matching pistons that are .10 over? The cylinders are already bored out to 1200 and have been rehoned for the new motor. I think I'm stuck going .5 or .10 over on the stock cylinders. How much would it cost to have the pistons matched to the cylinders?

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/xbstage2headssmall.jpg

aswracing
2nd April 2005, 01:50
Hopefully these pages will answer all your questions:

Stock heads:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/partsoemheads.shtml

Head porting services:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/headworkbuell.shtml

Pistons & rings:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/partspistons.shtml

Cylinder boring:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/mwcylbore.shtml

883 to 1200 conversion packages:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ekit8831200.shtml

Engine kits for 03 and earlier:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ekitsportster.shtml

Engine kits for 04-05:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ekitsportster04.shtml

Now of course, I'm biased, but seriously, the stuff we sell is what we've found to work the best. In some cases it costs a little more, I know, but that's kind of the nature of the beast. Occassionally a part that works the best is also the least expensive on the market, for example the S&S roller rockers are the only brand I've never had a failure with and they cost less than the JIMS or Cranes. But that's not how most things work.

aswracing
2nd April 2005, 02:00
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/stdxlracesmall.jpg
When you're ready to make some serious power, call me about a set of these ;)

HD1200R
2nd April 2005, 03:23
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/stdxlracesmall.jpg
When you're ready to make some serious power, call me about a set of these ;)

Will you take payments? :D

HD1200R
2nd April 2005, 03:31
Hopefully these pages will answer all your questions:

Stock heads:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/partsoemheads.shtml

Head porting services:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/headworkbuell.shtml

Pistons & rings:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/partspistons.shtml

Cylinder boring:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/mwcylbore.shtml

883 to 1200 conversion packages:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ekit8831200.shtml

Engine kits for 03 and earlier:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ekitsportster.shtml

Engine kits for 04-05:
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ekitsportster04.shtml

Now of course, I'm biased, but seriously, the stuff we sell is what we've found to work the best. In some cases it costs a little more, I know, but that's kind of the nature of the beast. Occassionally a part that works the best is also the least expensive on the market, for example the S&S roller rockers are the only brand I've never had a failure with and they cost less than the JIMS or Cranes. But that's not how most things work.

The S&S roller rockers are the ones that I have in my bike. They seem to be pretty well made and so far no complaints. :)

I did some adding up and know what I need to aim for. I think I'm going to save towards the Buell stage 2 heads and TStorm designed Hurricane pistons.

Thanks for helping me out. You will be hearing from me again soon! Next time will be with some cash burning a hole in my pocket. :)

aswracing
2nd April 2005, 04:26
Money's just a way of keeping score :)

txsporty
2nd April 2005, 04:51
Like the Ole saying goes:

"how fast do you want to go?" "How much Money ya Have?" :D

Narley
2nd April 2005, 06:07
Ok I am asking...heads are the key . my build is good cept for the heads. When I take the heads off we can see where the 14 hp went. I want the best heads. std worked with big valves. I have an extra set of pistons. what do you need to get those heads set up for me. .What will they flow? And what do i do with my tstorms? Sell them or trade them in?

Narley
2nd April 2005, 06:14
by the way I need minimal turn around time. I can send the extra pistons and then you can send me the heads and i can re and re them fro one day down time. Any chance you need the cylinders? with heads that good should i drop down to 12-1 wiseco pistons and that would mean I can send you the pistons and the cylinders and still have the bike racing while you do the work.

aswracing
2nd April 2005, 15:02
Those heads are sweet, let me tell you. This bike ...

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/drdannorlin82.gif

... uses a set, and it's running the same cams you are. At 88 inches instead of 82, I'd expect that motor to be around 145hp. We just build these 82's because of sanctioning body rules.

This bike also has a set:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/pictures/s1138hp.gif

It's another 82 incher. I'm currently taking it out to 88 inches.

This bike uses a set too:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/pictures/s2213hp.gif

although this one is "assisted" a little bit by laughing gas :) ... but it's pulled over 160hp on motor alone. 100ci., in a Buell chassis.

The top sheet is actually new ground for us, because it's not the raised oval port version of the heads, it's the stock height round ports. Uses a standard intake manifold. The raised oval port jobs use a custom manifold. The same motor was making somewhat less last year, we had some ideas, tried'em on the heads, the flow bench said they worked, and the dyno confirmed it. We actually beat our previous result at that motor size with the raised oval port heads (the second sheet).

We're getting well over 200cfm @10" out of the stock height round port heads, and over 220 out of the raised oval port versions. FYI ... 275cfm @28" = 164cfm @10"

Anyway, I've got to warn you ... getting a set of these heads in is not quick. They're custom made, we literally specify every detail about how we want them made, configure them exactly how we want them for the customer's specific combination. They generally take 3 months to get a set. As delivered, though, they're still a long way from being done. It's just a bare casting with seats in it and some of the machining done. I specifically order them with super small ports just so I know I've got the material to do the port shape I want.

Then, after they're all done, if you went with the raised oval ports you've got to put the heads on the motor and make some measurements so we can get the intake manifold made, which is generally another 3 weeks. If you raised the exhaust ports too you'll likely need to modify or custom make an exhaust system.

Don't mean to be discouraging, just kinda pointing out how this is not the same as putting on a set of XB or Thunderstorm heads ;) . It's a lot of trouble and takes awhile, but worth it IMO.

i'm a little wary about matching them to an existing set of pistons. How we do the chamber has a lot to do with the result. I need to know the dome configuration before I can say whether or not I think I can make a good chamber around it. Is it a 30 degree all the way to the edge? Or does it have a flat perimeter (common on 88 inch pistons made for 3.5" chamber heads)? How tall? How thick? And of course I need to understand hat you've got available for gasoline. The motor in that top sheet is made specifically for a 100 octane spec fuel. And I like to match the ring pack to a particular aspect of the heads.

Won't need your cylinders, I do need'em to make the dome volume measurements but I've got 88" cylinders sitting around.

Think about it, and if you want to go down this path, give us a call.

Narley
2nd April 2005, 21:07
I have 2 sets of pistons...theyt are axtell sold JE made 3 13/16 3.813 with the following specs. I have the specs on them...they are axtell #801-505 with a 35cc dome.. That delay is too long..it would put me at the end of the season...
Sounds so good though....
What kind of heads can you suggest for 2 -3 week max turn around time.
I can send the extra set of pistons.
Or can you just put larger valves in my tstroms. They are stage 2 zippers cnc,d that came on the bike.

harleymanjay04
3rd April 2005, 03:08
very helpful info.
i was wondering what head and stage would you recomend with s/e E bolt in cams an d what ignition module to make ur 1250 conv kit work well or should i have my heads done instead of buying new ones.i would like to get about 80 or so h/p.a nice streetable bike.i haven't called justin yet,but figured i would ask anyway.all this is assuming that the pistons would be matched to the heads and head work u recomend.thanks
jay.

barry1967
3rd April 2005, 03:11
.i would like to get about 80 or so h/p.a nice streetable bike.

I got 82HP/79TQ with N2s and 1200XB heads done by JET. I am currently assembling the components listed in my signature. I will repost the dyno after it is together.

harleymanjay04
3rd April 2005, 03:16
I got 82HP/79TQ with N2s and 1200XB heads done by JET. I am currently assembling the components listed in my signature. I will repost the dyno after it is together.thats sweet barry.as u can see by the other post i have that u answered to,i'm really struggling on what to do and wich way to go. ireally want nrhs to do the work b/c it really looks like they have a handle on all this and i don't think i would trust anyone else b/c of what i've been reading these past days.

barry1967
3rd April 2005, 03:32
thats sweet barry.as u can see by the other post i have that u answered to,i'm really struggling on what to do and wich way to go. ireally want nrhs to do the work b/c it really looks like they have a handle on all this and i don't think i would trust anyone else b/c of what i've been reading these past days.


No problem. Both JET and NHRS do great work. They just do it in different ways.

JET really likes N2s with his stuff and it makes great street engines.

NHRS seems to like bigger cams with more compression and matches the head to the cam to give you great street engine with more HP on top.

Depends what you want. Low end grunt for the street or more HP for street/strip. Either way ya go,you have few great people doing great work.

Just different ways to get there.

aswracing
3rd April 2005, 04:03
Narley, most any OEM head we can turn around within 2 weeks. Usually faster. I'd be happy to take a look at them and tell you what I think they'd do for you with bigger valves. We know t-storms well, we know what to expect. I can make some measurements on the ports and assess them. It's important to match what you'r edoing with the heads to your cams. No charge for the eval, and I'll shoot straight with you, if I don't think we can help them by going with bigger valves I won't do the job. Just depends on what I find.

HarleymanJay, I'm thinking you have an '04, right? That's kinda what your picture indicates. Lots of people are griping about how rattly the "E" cams are. They're getting wide, streetable powerbands though.

We have a proven port configuration for 1250 kits and SE .536 cams, that's where I'd recommend you go. We've put numerous folks with Buells and 03-earlier Sportsters over 100hp, just did one today in fact. He did it with a Stage 2 head although we can get more if we do a Stage 3 head.

aswracing
3rd April 2005, 04:19
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/drrobnoble.gif

Here's that bike we tuned today, I also put this in the dyno results area.

Stage 2 Tstorms, 1250 kit, SE .536's, HSR42, HurricaneFlow 3", Samson Caliber exhaust, and an SE non-adjustable ignition.

I wasn't real crazy about that exhaust, it was reverting in between those torque peaks, but it wasn't too bad, and the double peaks do broaden the curve.

Forgot to answer your ignition question. We've had a lot of success with the Dyna 2000 on this level of a motor. It's a good ignition, well sorted, not too complicated to set up like some of'em but still has some adjustments. Available in a single or dual fire version.

harleymanjay04
3rd April 2005, 04:35
yeah.sorry.its an 04.i heard that about those cams,wasn't sure about it.it was here-say.so i didn't know what to believe.but i want an off the line and mid type of cam.
i want to get them off the line aka traffic light and down shift and pull on them in the midrange power band.
that dyno looks like what i would be looking for.nice flat climbing torq with no drop-off and it kicks in at about 2500 rpm,wich is a little higher than i would be launching at,but its very close to a street type of launch imo. outside of sending u my heads and having everything worked out,what would happen?would u send me the 1250 kit with cams,heads and ignition?can i get it all from u?if not no big deal,i just don't know what cams and ignition u guys carry.guess i should check out ur web site allittle bit better.

also,what about the heads.stg1 or stg 2 my own heads or buy new ones.i don't mean to be a pain,but i'm just trying to put together a price range and what i'm looking at.
i really appreciate though.thanks again.
jay.

aswracing
3rd April 2005, 05:50
Sure, you can get it all from us, we do it all the time. Forgot, this is an '04, I'd recommend the Twin Tec ignition, works good. If your bike is a 1200 it has an excellent set of heads to start with. Stage 2 can take good advantage of those cams, Stage 3 we can get a little more. Much of that powerband is driven by the pipe. Here's a chart with a set of Stage 3's and a 1250 kit and .536's but with a Supertrapp:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/drbobkasper.gif

See how it changes the curve a bunch.

And here's one with a Thunderheader, again Stage 3 heads, SE .536's, 1250 kit:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/drbarneyhertzog.GIF

When you put overlap into the cams, the pipe gets a lot of influence on the powerband.

Look at this guy's Buell X1:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/drrichmartinez.gif

Stage 2 heads, 1250 kit, and .536's. Buell race kit pipe. All these motors have the same cams and 1250 kits, the difference is the pipes.

harleymanjay04
3rd April 2005, 16:41
wow.those are awesome.damn.lets take care of this,once and for all.i got so wrapped up in what i was thinking about wrighting,i left out the most important stuff.like;its an 04 883 custom.with s/e II and h/c.

thanks so much for taking the time out and helping all of us here. pulling all those dynos for all of us to see is an awesome way to see whats what. i mean that last one of the buel x1,it doesn't have the most #'s in torq but look how it climbs in the beginning and stays flat acroos the plain with no dips and doesn't start to drop till 6k rpms,and yet still isn't like DROPPING,it kinda smooths its way out to 6800.the h/p is like a hummer on sterroids,it just climbs up Mount Everest.very smooth.

if i could get that kind of flow that would be awesome.i mean it doesn't have to be that much h/p and torq(what am i, nuts!?) as long as it has that type of smoothness to it.i prolly sound crazy,but i love it when i see this kind of dyno,u can tell that the ignition,and ofcourse the timing,and air/fuel are dead on with out seeing the chart on them.well.imo anyway.the only thing that is better than this dyno is one that just climbs on both sides,h/p and torq.and thats a rare thing to see.

sorry about s**king the dynos pecker here,but i was in a zone.

so in conclusion,i'll be getting the 1250 kit,with stg 2 heads,s/e 536 cams,with the ignition u said to use,and hopefully i won't have to change my exhaust and carb right away.if i do i'll just have to save a little longer and get it all done at once.thanks again nrhs. :urock
jay.

FiftySixer
2nd February 2007, 03:08
Hi All,

I'm reading all of these posts in an effort to eduacate myself on a 1250 conversion. I appreciate the detailed posts as they really help.

A few questions:

Will 2004 and up 1200R Heads go on a 2003?
Excluding the price of the heads, what are the costs of stage 2 & 3 on the heads?
What would be the difference on a set of 1200R heads stage 2 to stage3?

Considering it's street use and going to be babied except for an occassional hard roll on or two or three, Is it worth stage3?

On a bike with a 1250 kit, 1200R stage 2 heads, crane ifgnition, Mikuni or blueprinted CV, RB Racing two into one, 3" breather, and either an Andrews N, or mild cam, what can I expect at the rear wheel?

Any answers, (long ones with detail are appreciated) will go a long way for me.

Thanks in advance.

Gone
2nd February 2007, 04:47
If you have not yet been to the NRHS site, There is a whole set of dyno charts and they have more head porting info.

NRHS Sales
2nd February 2007, 17:07
On a street bike such as the one you are proposing you will only need stage 2 headwork. the cost for that is $850 with your heads. A 1250 with stage 2 04 1200R heads and all the good componenets to match is capable of making over 100 hp at the rear wheel. But it will only be as powerful as your weakest component. You can have a 110 hp engine but if you only have an 85 hp exhaust you are only going to kake 85 hp. Same thing goes for cams, carb, etc. You get the idea. It must be a matched package.

rottenralph
4th February 2007, 18:02
It is interesting how the supertrapp torque comes up quicker and then only bleeds off a bit from 3500. Great wheelie and off the line power. Thanks for the charts.

Whats the best power you guys achieved with 88-03 1200 heads stage 2 or 3.

NRHS Sales
4th February 2007, 20:03
A stage 3 03 and older 1200 head should be able to support around 100-110 hp if we do all of our tricks to it but it ends up being more expensive than buying new heads.

smackie
21st March 2007, 22:48
compression question. the kits say 10.5-1.

what is the highest compression ratio one can run without detonation, good for a street motor? I am assuming its around 10.5 to 1.

also I have read that the squish band helps reduce this? is this correct?

is it realistic to run greater then 10.5 to 1 with a greater squish.

20% angle and 11 to 1 compression....would that be a descent street motor.

lastly how much does .5 - 1 increase in compression make in difference of power?

just trying to see if i can squeeze a little more out of the engine...