:tour

Hello:

I sent in the following as a suggestion to H-D, and I received my letter back stamped "Product Suggestion" and a legal form to fill out. The form was indecipherable, for all I know it would have enlisted me in the French Foreign Legion. Anyway, I spent some time putting this suggestion together, and I think the H-D response smacked frankly of arrogance. Anyway, here it is:



Mr. Jim Ziemer
CEO
Harley-Davidson, Inc.
3700 W. Juneau Avenue
Milwaukee WI 53208

Dear Mr. Ziemer:

A product suggestion: SportRod.

(I enclosed a picture of a 1200 R with a superimposed VRod engine).

After forty years ogling Sportsters, and one old Yamaha, one new Yamaha, one new BMW, and one new Honda, I finally purchased my 2005 1200R in January. The overarching considerations were the rubber mounting and the availability (finally!) without MSRP+++ games. Other than the world’s wonkiest clutch, so far so good. H-D is to be commended for offering one of the few “Standard” motorcycles left, although I understand this term is heretical to the faithful.
I recently rode a Street Rod, and although I did not like it particularly, the engine is amazing. Ergo, I offer the product suggestion for a new model, the SportRod, the Sportster Roadster (“Standard”) with the V-Rod engine. I believe the end result:
• Would be an awesome “Standard” comparable to the V-Max.
• Could be reasonably (i.e., Sportster vice V-Rod) priced, based on the cost difference between a Sportster and V-Rod powertrain, with frame modifications.
• Further appeal to the older (i.e., me) crowd who comes back to motorcycling without a desire to either road-race crouch or aching-back recline.
• Could be configured into a cost-effective and truly capable tourer.

Sincerely,

I love the idea. I'm hoping The Motor Company is going in this direction. My only concern is how HD managed to overengineer the frame of the V-Rod to accomodate all that power. Although no one else seems to need such an odd type of frame to harness similar power. I'd love to see a Revolution modded into the typical Sportster configuration, but I wonder what the $$$ increase would be. I think V-Rods are a bit overpriced, V-Rodding a Sportster would probably do the same... make it a little more expensive than I'm willing to spend.

On that note, I want to see Buell do the same. I'd love to see the superbike they could put together with an XL type Revolution.

I hope HD follows up on your idea.

I love the idea. I'm hoping The Motor Company is going in this direction. My only concern is how HD managed to overengineer the frame of the V-Rod to accomodate all that power. Although no one else seems to need such an odd type of frame to harness similar power. I'd love to see a Revolution modded into the typical Sportster configuration, but I wonder what the $$$ increase would be. I think V-Rods are a bit overpriced, V-Rodding a Sportster would probably do the same... make it a little more expensive than I'm willing to spend.

On that note, I want to see Buell do the same. I'd love to see the superbike they could put together with an XL type Revolution.

I hope HD follows up on your idea.

The Vrod frame isn't really that over-engineered. The biggest problems they faced was keeping it to look like a harley. The main difference with the v-rod frame is it's a pariemter type, versus the backbone that most HD's use. Look at just about any sportbike, and you'll see they they in fact use a perimter type frame as well. Just look at any buell, new or old.

I'll bet you probably got a letter back cause some idiot corporate lawyer thought (or knows) "Oh my gosh, we're gonna do this, and if he thinks we used his idea, we'll lose the inevitable lawsuit!"

Frankly, if H-D hasn't thought of this, not only do they need to be b--ch slapped, they deserve to pay you off for the idea, AND they deserve to go out of business. Ditto, with putting the Revo in a Buell (mmmmmmm). Earth to Milwaukee.... come in Milwaukee....

Might putting the Revo in a Sporty type / backbone type frame be fairly complicated due to the fuel injection stuff in the fake V-rod 'fuel tank'?

The Vrod frame isn't really that over-engineered. The biggest problems they faced was keeping it to look like a harley. The main difference with the v-rod frame is it's a pariemter type, versus the backbone that most HD's use. Look at just about any sportbike, and you'll see they they in fact use a perimter type frame as well. Just look at any buell, new or old.
I know all the sport bikes use a perimeter frame, but look at all the other liquid cooled V-twin cruisers. They all use backbone frames. One way to keep the look of a HD is to use a backbone frame. Even Matt Hotch used a backbone frame for a custom he built with a Revolution. Only reason HD had that problem was because they decided to use a perimeter frame to compensate for the extra power.

Sounds like an awsome idea I would even consider buying something like that sounds sweet. Hope they go with the idea.

I know all the sport bikes use a perimeter frame, but look at all the other liquid cooled V-twin cruisers. They all use backbone frames. One way to keep the look of a HD is to use a backbone frame. Even Matt Hotch used a backbone frame for a custom he built with a Revolution. Only reason HD had that problem was because they decided to use a perimeter frame to compensate for the extra power.


Agreed, but metric cruisers and Matt Hotch customs aren't exactly the pinnicle of chassis rigidity either.

The Vrod frame isn't really that over-engineered. The biggest problems they faced was keeping it to look like a harley.

They failed.

I would not buy a sportster with a VRod engine.

I wouldn't buy it either.

It wouldn't be a Sportster. More like a Dyna with a VRod engine.

All the things you buy a Sportster for - Cost, Size, Weight, Nimbleness, Width, Looks, Sound, etc. would be out the window. All to gain a little performance and liquid cooling.

Just buy a VRod.

Sportsters should be Bobbed, Chopped or Raked - never VRodded!

Kong

Chop that F**kin Sporty!

Interesting idea and thanks for sharing the letter with us. Can we see the picture you sent them?

Am I missing something. What was HD's response. I could not find it.:doh

Am I missing something. What was HD's response. I could not find it.:dohthats kinda what i was thinking

This is what pwilson said he got back from HD:

"I received my letter back stamped "Product Suggestion" and a legal form to fill out."

Not even a "thank you for your suggestion" from them, I guess!

They failed.

I would not buy a sportster with a VRod engine.
how many people didn't like the idea of an Evo XL back in the 80's? I'm curious since I wasn't into bikes back then. I wonder if the Evo had similar reactions from XL enthusiasts.

how many people didn't like the idea of an Evo XL back in the 80's? I'm curious since I wasn't into bikes back then. I wonder if the Evo had similar reactions from XL enthusiasts.

No idea... But I think that the VRod is HD in name only.

HD has a "style" that is instantly recognizable, a history that is unparallelled and a fanbase that is undeniably loyal. The VRod is a departure from all of that. It may, in another 10 years or so, be known as the precursor to the whole Harley lineup, but all that means to me is that I will have a harder time finding parts for the Pre-Vrod bikes I will buy and ride.

If I wanted an Intruder, I would have bought an Intruder.

No idea... But I think that the VRod is HD in name only.

HD has a "style" that is instantly recognizable, a history that is unparallelled and a fanbase that is undeniably loyal. The VRod is a departure from all of that. It may, in another 10 years or so, be known as the precursor to the whole Harley lineup, but all that means to me is that I will have a harder time finding parts for the Pre-Vrod bikes I will buy and ride.

If I wanted an Intruder, I would have bought an Intruder.

The V-ROD engine itself has a rather rich history considering it's short life, and maybe putting it into a capable streetbike could be the capstone to it's life.

HD has a "style" that is instantly recognizable

Perhaps that was once true, and that it is originally THEIR style I would not even try to refute, but have you taken a look at the metrics lately?

It would not be that hard to mistaken one for an HD while driving by it in my opinion. Once you are stopped at a light etc. ok... but quickly passing each other on the road... a bit tougher.

My $0.02

Like xl1200r said, the VRod has a perimeter tube frame shaped and designed spefically around the Revolution engine. What's more, unless I'm mistaken, the Revo is a two piece unit like all other BT's with a completely seperate tranny. Not to mention the added room that would be required between the front tire and the frame for the water cooler.

If you tried to build a Sporty around a Revolution engine what you would end up is something that looked a lot like...well, a lot like a VRod. ;)

I don't maybe just me but the more bikes I look at the quicker I know what they are. Suki, yam, kawi, duc, triumph, etc they all have thier little tell tale signs. And thats what makes someone appriticate each one. Now mabey a Indian and an HD, if its going by at like 80 and you don't look at the front fender...

I think mark883 is onto something. I wonder if in the 'legal form' they sent you to fill out there is wording (in the fine print) to the effect that they've already thought of this, and that if they ever do something like this, they don't owe you anything for your suggestion. If this SportRod idea isn't something they've been at least considering, I doubt they would have answered you at all.

:tour

I had no luck trying to include the picture before. I'll try again.

6612

Like xl1200r said, the VRod has a perimeter tube frame shaped and designed spefically around the Revolution engine. What's more, unless I'm mistaken, the Revo is a two piece unit like all other BT's with a completely seperate tranny. Not to mention the added room that would be required between the front tire and the frame for the water cooler.

If you tried to build a Sporty around a Revolution engine what you would end up is something that looked a lot like...well, a lot like a VRod. ;)
I would think that any engine that HD designs for the XL will be a one piece unit. They did it with the Evo, if they went Revo I would expect them to do the same. I'm sure they still feel that they have plenty of mileage left on the Evo. If there's a change, I bet it will be with a 2nd generation Revo type motor if not something completely new.

I would think that any engine that HD designs for the XL will be a one piece unit. They did it with the Evo, if they went Revo I would expect them to do the same. I'm sure they still feel that they have plenty of mileage left on the Evo. If there's a change, I bet it will be with a 2nd generation Revo type motor if not something completely new.

Agree with the therory but it's a ways off.

The Sporty, or any of the other BT's, will not be getting a Revo powerplant in the immediate future. HD will go kicking and screaming first.

Personally, I believe the Revo and VRod was not produced as much out of foresight for the pending EPA regs (keep in mind most of them weren't even proposals when it was designed) as it was a way to lure in a new market share. Certainly, emissions and the future played a role. But there's a lot of "new generation" folks out there who like the idea of the bar and shield but want that quiet water cooled power.

We'll see air pumps long before radiators.

The Revolution is a one peice design. Meaning if you want to work on the tranny gears you have to split the cases. Like an import bike. I also believe it is an indirect drive tranny. Where as all other Harleys are direct drive even the right side drive Sportster.

I say put the REVO in a true sportbike frame where it freaken belongs already!!!!!!! They should have made the VR-1000 street legal and market it as a Buell!

They failed.

I would not buy a sportster with a VRod engine.

I'd be more likely to buy a V-rod with a Sporty engine :laugh

What they need to do is either put a Buell engine in a Sportster or a peanut tank and eyebrow on a Buell.

The Buell needs the VROD engine. By the time they got done it would be pulling 175 horses.

I'd be more likely to buy a V-rod with a Sporty engine :laugh

Right on! :smoke

how many people didn't like the idea of an Evo XL back in the 80's? I'm curious since I wasn't into bikes back then. I wonder if the Evo had similar reactions from XL enthusiasts.
very similiar to this discussion :p

I wanted the old engine not the evolution motor (I bought a 77 and skipped the Evo) It did not seem like a 'Harley'

...of course time has proven me wrong :D

Harley probably has the name penned to a design somewhere, not necessarily a Revolution engine in a Sportster frame. They're all about the names maybe even more so than the designs.

There is the rumor that a detuned Revolution engine is going into a moped frame and they're calling it the LimpRod. BA HA HA HA HA!

Sounds like you got a standard legal response that is sent to protect HD and to offcially "steal" your idea.

I was told by the editor of one of the major motorcycle magazines that size wise the V-Rod engine is a very large engine. This may be a factor as far as being able to use the engine in other bikes such as the Touring models or the Sportster. The air cooled Harley engines do seem to be fairly compact compared to the liquid cooled motors made by the other manufacturers. Maybe this is why we haven't seen the V-Rod motor in anything other than the V-Rod model yet. I wondered for years why Honda didn't use the Goldwing motor for another bike, then they did it (the Valcurie) and then I didn't like it. Fickle me, just give me a Sportster and I'll be happy.
DougT

The biggest problems they faced was keeping it to look like a harley.

well, they failed miserably, the VR looks nothing like a harley as much as it does a UJM...

I think a Sport Digger with a Top Fuel motor in it would be way much funner

In all seriousness, it would probably be easier to redesign the heads and valve train on the sporty motor, I.E. chain driven dohc with four valve heads.
The chain, (or belt), could be hidden in Buell style pushrod tubes, maybe separate intakes with two carbs? Therein lies most of the performance advantage of the V rod over the sporty. Obviously there are other things, such as firing angle, water cooling, efi, and an ECM, but given what the Sporty is already cabable of, giving it a little of what makes the 'Rod so bad ass, might just work.