Has anyone put 536 cams in an 04-06 sportster?

The SE catolog says 00-03, and the revised instructions say "this kit will not fit in 2004 or newer sportsters."

The newer sportys use the same old D and W cams as before. It's even the same part # for the stock cam sets and pinion gear. The lifters are the same.

The 551s will fit, so the lift is not an issue. Although the 551s are a smaller base circle.

With the research I have done there is no reason they shouldn't work, Yet H-D keeps saying they won't.:dunno

Any thoughts? Personal experience?
Thanks in advance

Broclee you are correct those cams will fit, but I think you have to have the pionion gear that drives the oil pump changed. To better answer you question your should get in touch with Dan at NRHS, I would guess they would be around on Tuesday. If I'm correct they can change that gear out for you and get you running in no time.

Say if you don't want to go thru the hassle to get those cams to fit, I'll gladly take them off your hands. I'm looking for a set for my bike, I currently run the .551's

I haven't tried to install the 536s. Hell, I haven't even bought them yet. They are just one of the options I'm considering. I just believe in overdoing my research.:D

I have a set in my '04. Currently making 103rwhp. Sure glad no one told me they don't fit ;)

If you get the late version, the 25649-01's, they work with the stock pinion gear.

These cams have a stock base circle. The 551's and 575's, which are specified to fit the new bikes, have a small base circle. High lift at stck base circle causes clearance issues in the cam box (not that .536 is that high). My guess about HD's recommendation is that they're concerned about lobe swing and tappet pin clearance. Check it on install. Mine were fine.

Aaron thanks for correcting my error.

I'd be interested in a little more information on that 103RWHP build you have. Have posted about that bike in the past?

It's my '04 XL883/1250. I'm always screwing around with it, it's a test mule. The bike has about 1000 miles on it and literally 600 dyno pulls. Bet we've had the top end off at least a dozen times.

I don't want to give details on the current setup because it's highly experimental, and whether or not I ever offer that exact arrangement is still an open issue. But it's very, very mild. I'm not going for a big hp number on this bike, I use it to work on cost-effective combinations. The 120+hp stuff is great fun but most guys are looking to make good power with lots of reliability and longevity while keeping the costs down. So that's where I focus my R&D.

Here's the sheet, just did this a week or so ago ...

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/pictures/xl883103hp.gif

Aaron, thanks for the input. I figured you guys had used that combo. I've exchanged a few e-mails w/ Daniel about some options for my bike.

The part # has been changed to 25649-01A. I don't think the cams have been changed, (could be wrong) but it has a revised instruction sheet. That is were I saw the comment about not working on new sportys.

I was just trying to figure out why H-D says 00-03, when you (and others) have used these cams in 04-up sportys. It seems that Harley errs on the side of caution when saying what fits w/ what.

Stupid question.:doh If the 551s & 575 have small base circles, do the pushrods need to be changed, or do you just put it together and check the lifter preload? I know the 551s are bolt-in for 04-up.

Thanks

Will the valve springs bind with the 536 cams in an 06???

That's not a stupid question at all. The cams are about .050 smaller on the base circle, which affects the ideal pushrod length .025" (i.e. the radius). Since the lifter when centered is preloaded .100, with .100 of travel in either direction, this isn't enough to cause a concern. Also, we typically lower the top of the motor through thin gaskets and head milling anyway. So this helps balance it out.

Lou, that's another good question. They work fine with the stock 04-up hardware. Not with the 03 and prior though.

Thanks for the response. Although the dealerships sell them they don't know s#@t about installing them. The last cam change i did was about 10 years ago on my 98" shovel, i'm sure technology has evolved since then...LOL

Aaron,
Are you saying the 536's are truly bolt in, i.e. can be done without pulling the top end to check clearences?

No, absolutely not. The cam box needs to be checked for clearance, as do the tappet pins. Piston to valve needs to be checked as well, especially on the exhaust. This grind has .236 of exhaust TDC lift and it may very well collide with a stock piston.

Thanks Aaron, I figured that all the clearences would need to be checked. I'm waiting for the warranty period to expire then you guys will get my heads, and perhaps my cases for an 88" motor.

No, absolutely not. The cam box needs to be checked for clearance, as do the tappet pins.

Has this been an issue w/ the 575 cams?

If I understand this correctly, the lobe lift on the 536 is .025" higher relative to the lobe lift on the 551 or 575, because of the base circle diff.
So the lobe lift on the 536 may actually be higher than the 551. Hope that makes sense.:confused:

thanks for the info

You raise a good point (hah! I kill me!)

The .551 is not as tall as the .536 in absolute terms, after considering the base circle difference. But the .575 is slightly taller. Hmmm.

OK, to hell with my theory. I don't know why they don't want you using 536's in the rubber mounts.

Perhaps it's the .236 lift @ TDC you referd to earlier.The .551 and the .575 have less lift @ TDC than the .536's do.

Lou-

Maybe that's it. TDC lift for the 551 is.197/.122 (which is supposed to bolt in) The 575 is pretty close with TDC lift of .228/.221

No, absolutely not. The cam box needs to be checked for clearance, as do the tappet pins. Piston to valve needs to be checked as well, especially on the exhaust. This grind has .236 of exhaust TDC lift and it may very well collide with a stock piston.

Can someone explain this to me? I will be sending my cyls and heads to you guys for the 1212 conversion and the "Mike" head work, with the flat top pistons. Dan was saying that I need to use the 536 cams. I was planning on doing all of the work myself and all of the posts about installing cams. Seems pretty straight forward if they are truly bolt in. But what do I have to do- SPECIFICALLY- with the 536's pertaining to "fitment"?

Please help. Thanks.

Can someone explain this to me? I will be sending my cyls and heads to you guys for the 1212 conversion and the "Mike" head work, with the flat top pistons. Dan was saying that I need to use the 536 cams. I was planning on doing all of the work myself and all of the posts about installing cams. Seems pretty straight forward if they are truly bolt in. But what do I have to do- SPECIFICALLY- with the 536's pertaining to "fitment"?

Please help. Thanks.

These cams are most certainly not "bolt-ins". But the heads on the rubber mounts have adequate spring pressure and travel to handle them. And so far, every rubber mount I've put'em into, everything has cleared fine EXCEPT for piston to valve clearance. So check everything, and pay particular attention to piston to valve clearance. Piston to valve clearance checking is covered here:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_valvetopiston.shtml

The other things to look at are mainly lobe swing clearance and tappet pin clearance. Those things and a whole lot more are covered in this article:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_xlcaminstall.shtml

You can look at the cam fit and end play as well, although they should be fine.

Valve to valve clearance, coil bind clearance, rocker box clearance (with stock springs), all will be fine and don't need to even be checked. Pushrod length should be fine unless you do a bunch of head decking, which you certainly won't want to do with a flat top piston, you'll be trying to go the other way in terms of chamber volume.

Though they're not a bolt-in, they're really pretty easy to install compared to a lot of cams. You should try installing a set of Red Shift 785's (.785 lift) sometime, you would not believe the hoops you have to jump through to get those babies in. I run'em in one of my race bikes.

Aaron, Dan wrote the following on the post relating to Mikes conversion. Is it then safe from this comment that the .536's can be installed with your Hurricane forged pistons and 04 or later heads without any problems?


Broclee,
The 536 cams are great and will bolt on with your stock o4 and up 1200 heads. Just be sure you check valve to piston clearance if using pistons other than Hurricanes. With your heads an ignition modue will be a benefit since your valve sizes can benefit from more rpms. On Mikes bike his 883 heads have small valves so more rpms would not have given more power. His bike is basically at the limits of his valve size.

Ivan
No we do not. Tests like that require a dedicated bike that the only thing we are changing is exhausts during the same day. We are not in the exhaust business so that just is not practical for us to do tests like that. It is hard enough for us to do testing of our products much less somebody elses. Maybe call Rhinehart and see if they have done any tests like that.
__________________
Dan
NRHS
303-833-4500
www.nrhsperformance.com

It has to be checked, as does lobe swing clearance and tappet pin clearance. It's the engine builder's responsibility to check these things.

Would they be OK if you don't check them? Probably. But we won't be responsible if it's not. It's the engine builder's responsibility to check these things. Guess work is no way to put a motor together.

These cams are most certainly not "bolt-ins". But the heads on the rubber mounts have adequate spring pressure and travel to handle them. And so far, every rubber mount I've put'em into, everything has cleared fine EXCEPT for piston to valve clearance. So check everything, and pay particular attention to piston to valve clearance. Piston to valve clearance checking is covered here:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_valvetopiston.shtml

The other things to look at are mainly lobe swing clearance and tappet pin clearance. Those things and a whole lot more are covered in this article:

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_xlcaminstall.shtml

You can look at the cam fit and end play as well, although they should be fine.

Valve to valve clearance, coil bind clearance, rocker box clearance (with stock springs), all will be fine and don't need to even be checked. Pushrod length should be fine unless you do a bunch of head decking, which you certainly won't want to do with a flat top piston, you'll be trying to go the other way in terms of chamber volume.

Though they're not a bolt-in, they're really pretty easy to install compared to a lot of cams. You should try installing a set of Red Shift 785's (.785 lift) sometime, you would not believe the hoops you have to jump through to get those babies in. I run'em in one of my race bikes.

Sounds too complicated for me. What should I expect to pay to have them installed? Would the 551's work with that conversion and head work or am I better off sucking it up and dealing with the install on the 536's?

Every time I go to actually get this stuff done something comes up and throws me for a loop. I really want to have the conversion installed soon and was looking forward to doing it all myself, but if I need to have the 536's then that is something else to think about.:doh :doh :doh

Bwheeler,
It is not that hard and our website explains it all thoroughly. But if you have any questions we can talk you through it.

Bwheeler,
It is not that hard and our website explains it all thoroughly. But if you have any questions we can talk you through it.

Okay. Will I need to do any kind of grinding or altering of the cams? What is entailed in this? Also, what type(s) of measuring tools will I need? I really want to do this myself...

Okay, I just saw that article on your site. I will need a machinists ruler, a die grinder, some clay and a scothbrite pad????

What was required with the "Mike" conversion when it came to the cams?

Normally you will not need to do any grinding to install the 536 cams into the cambox but there is a small possibility you might. You don't need to measure but you will need to test fit the cams and spin them around to ensure they don't hit anything. We use playdough as our clay to check the valve to piston clearance. That is something you will need to check.

We can take care of making your valve pockets in the pistons a bit deeper so there should not be any problems there but still you should clay it. We had to do this with Mikes build. Since you are buying this as a complete kit we can take care of that for you.

The other thing you should check is your squish. Also explained on our website. For that you will need a few pieces of solder and something to measure the pieces after squishing them.

Just read the tech article on your site. Holy shnikies!!! If I attempt this- one of two things are going to happen- I am going to have an engine that performs well and I can take pride in knowing that I did all myself OR I am going to sell the thing and buy a Yamaha R6. Jeez, I wish you guys were closer!!!

I am betting on the former. There are 3 main areas you need to check, probably somewhat in the below order but some of the things you can check together. any grinding you have to do, make sure you don't leave a burr/lip that will affect anything else.

1. Cam Chest- put the cams in one at a time, hold them in nice and tight and turn them. If they hit, grind the cam chest off a little bit at a time until they clear. (unless it is the bearing race, then grind a little bit off the back of the cams) then put the lifters in and make sure they go up and down, checking at top and bottom that they are not at the end of their play and binding.

2. Rocker boxes -- With heads on bench, bolt the rockers on and check around the edges to see if the spring is going to hit, if it is take it off and grind away a little metal and try again till you get the clearance.
-check the tops after you get it together

3. Inside the cylinder.
a. VALVE to VALVE-- should be right as long as NRHS did your heads and knew what cams you are useing
b SQUISH --- too thin means expensive shit gets beat to hell, too thick and you are giveing away cheap power. I like to start with the gaskets in place that NRHS sends in the kit. If anything it is usually a bit thick. if it is i lift the cylinder and cut out the base gasket(with piston near the top). that way I dont have to disconnect the wrist pin and risk pulling the piston out of the cylinder. depending on how much you need to take out if any, you can adjust further with different sized head gaskets. There are only 4 bolts per cylinder to mess with for this one. It is good to have a tube of 1104 laying around just in case you need to ditch the base gaskets. A good dial caliper helps a lot especially if you are an old fart with bad eyes and cant see the numbers on the others.
c. VALVE to PISTON check this after you get the squish right

4. Have a computer you can get to. if there is ANY doubt, check the NRHS web site or give them a call. it really isn't that hard to do as long as you invest the time in doing it right each step of the way.

Well put!

It ain't nearly as hard as most people think. Very simple actually.

The alternative is to be stuck in the world of bolt-in cams, and you leave a lot on the table when you do that, particularly when you get into ported heads.

I rode my bike to the auto craft shop on base one morning with .551s, tore down, checked everything and rode it home that evening with S$S .600s. even had to deal with a broken exhaust stud along the way. It really don't take that much time to do it right.

I hear what you guys are saying, but I do not have a background working on things. I can do some minor stuff, mostly parts changing, but talking about grinding parts and checking clearances makes me nervous. I am going to give it a shot. Worst thing is I have to take it to the Stealer or find a competent Indy to clean up my mess.

Anyone in the Central Florida area that knows what they are doing and want to lend a hand?

Keep in mind we are not talking about precision grinding like boreing a cylinder or anything. I clearanced most of the parts for a previous build using redshift .643s in the living room with a dremel. The stuff we are talking about grinding has a lot of extra metal so if you take a little bit too much off, it won't hurt anything. (By far preferable to take off a bit too much, a bit too little can be expensive) It has been a couple of years since i messed with the .536 cams but I don't think you will have to do much grinding in the cam chest, if any. The one thing I would watch closely in there (Only because i haven't messed with them on the newer bikes) is the #2 and #3 cam clearance to the bearing race.

The bottom line is if you aren't sure, error a little bit more away from metal to metal contact. IF the cams are close to hitting, lift up on the cam as you are turning it, if you can feel any contact what so ever grind some more.

There is lots of extra metal in the rocker boxes so take enough metal away from around the springs so the feeler guage is nice and loose. (Though if you can turn it sideways it might be a bit much:roflblack ).

In the cylinder, the piston is chasing the exhaust valve so watch it closest. With the squish, get as close to .030 as you can without going under. If you end up at .035 or .040 the bike will still run fine and we are not talking about massive horsepower losses here, just free horsepower if you get it right.

The last note is, turn everything by hand first, if you cant turn it, look for something wrong. If you aren't sure, look at the tech section on NRHS page, If you can't find the answer there, call dan. (assuming you bought the parts there).

Aloha bwheeler111,
So what happened with your project? It's been over 6 months. How did it go and how's your bike running? I'm gearing up to do this .536 cam swap and I'm at the same place you were last year.
Dan said that I could swap the cams now and do the rest (ported heads, pistons, etc.) when I had the money. So I'm really interested in how your's went. Thanks, MakuaKane

Aloha bwheeler111,
So what happened with your project? It's been over 6 months. How did it go and how's your bike running? I'm gearing up to do this .536 cam swap and I'm at the same place you were last year.
Dan said that I could swap the cams now and do the rest (ported heads, pistons, etc.) when I had the money. So I'm really interested in how your's went. Thanks, MakuaKane


My conversion was finished around Thanksgiving and since then I have only put 100 miles on it. Due to various reasons I have not had time to ride. As far as the install, I was very lucky for two reasons- 1. I had the expert help of CJBURR and 2. Mine didn't require any grinding. It took a little thought on CRBURR's end, but they went it relatively easy. Get the manual, print out the thread from Turbota from the forum and read up. You shouldn't have any problems. Get a Dremel just in case.

Good luck!

I have a 2003 1200,and am going to intall stock thundertorm heads and pistons, with the SE 536 cams, i am going to clay my valve to piston clearance as i would always do. but, i was curious as to what others have found is there usually an issue here? also as things stand now here is the set-up i have decided to go with stock thunderstorm heads and piston, SE 536's, SE ignition module 6800rpm, hsr42, and a thunderheader. if you have any suggestions on how to improve on this, keeping in mind im on a slight budget, i would greatly appreciate it thankyou

You're gonna at least upgrade the valve springs, right?

Also check retainer to guide clearance with those cams and stock guides.

Here's a tip ... if you go with 04-up XL1200 heads, or Buell XB heads if you want silver, it's not only a better set of heads but the stock springs and all will work fine with the SE 536's. Thunderstorms are yesterday's technology, the new heads are better.

The new heads will even work with your stock pistons. Do check piston to valve, though, with those cams and stock pistons. Particularly on the exhaust side.

Aaron: My heads and cylinders are at NRHS right now being done - stage 2 and hurricane 10.5:1 pistons. I have bought a set of the newer iteration 536 cams and would like to see your Ignition map for this set-up. Can you post it?
Thanks

It's my '04 XL883/1250. I'm always screwing around with it, it's a test mule. The bike has about 1000 miles on it and literally 600 dyno pulls. Bet we've had the top end off at least a dozen times.

I don't want to give details on the current setup because it's highly experimental, and whether or not I ever offer that exact arrangement is still an open issue. But it's very, very mild. I'm not going for a big hp number on this bike, I use it to work on cost-effective combinations. The 120+hp stuff is great fun but most guys are looking to make good power with lots of reliability and longevity while keeping the costs down. So that's where I focus my R&D.

Here's the sheet, just did this a week or so ago ...

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/pictures/xl883103hp.gif

to be totally honest i didn't think i would need too. This is the first time i have really worked with a sportster. At the dealership i usually only see the big twins, so i am not as familiar with the sporster yet.

Thank you for the tip the reason i decided to go with the thunderstorm heads is because we had a black pair in stock, and had been on the shelf for some time so management cut me a deal that i couldnt refuse. Also will stock push rods be ok or will i have to go to adjustables?

I have also considered going with the 497's as too make the process easier too avoid the down time, since this is my daily driver. Are the 536's really t worth doing compared to the others, like i sayed im new too thissidenof the spectrum. Thank you

i appreciate the help