I was installing my N4 cams. Everything went well with the dissassembly. I put the new cams in. Lined up the marks and buttoned up the bottom end. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the dealer had installed an SE ignition module with a 6800 rev limit. Now the bad part.

While installing the front lower rocker box I BROKE OFF all three of the 7/16 bolts. I set my torque wrench for the lowest setting in the range of recommended torque. I think it was 10 lbs. I mistook the sound of the bolt snapping for the click of the torque wrench. I didn't realize this until I was on the third bolt. Being new here, I feel a little embarassed to have to admit to this stupid mistake, but maybe someone else will avoid it by reading about my folly.

Anyway, I took the lower box back off and just my luck, no bolt sticking up to grab with vise grips. What to do? Time seemed to stand still so I don't know exactly how long I stood there swearing and stuff, but I decided to just put the box together hoping the four big bolts and the two smaller allen screws would hold up.

I still have the rear rocker cover to install. You can bet I'm going to be extremely careful with these bolts.

So, my question is: Should I leave things as they are hoping there won't be a major problem or do I need to get that front head off and drill out those bolts?
I'm planning on having some Stage II porting done this winter so I'm hoping I can just ride until the fall. I welcome everyone's opinions on this.

you should have used new hardware, all the bolts dealing with the rockerbox, cam, etc covers deal with a great deal of heat. when I did the cams on mine 4 years ago, I paid like $25 for all the new bolts dealing with the rockerboxes, cam cover, and lifter blocks.

I would take the front covers back off and see if you can extract the bolts or you might have to take the head off and have a machine shop do it. I broke a exhaust stud last year and "tried" to remove it. I ended up taking the front head to my indy.SIGH

I was installing my N4 cams. Everything went well with the dissassembly. I put the new cams in. Lined up the marks and buttoned up the bottom end. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the dealer had installed an SE ignition module with a 6800 rev limit. Now the bad part.

While installing the front lower rocker box I BROKE OFF all three of the 7/16 bolts. I set my torque wrench for the lowest setting in the range of recommended torque. I think it was 10 lbs. I mistook the sound of the bolt snapping for the click of the torque wrench. I didn't realize this until I was on the third bolt. Being new here, I feel a little embarassed to have to admit to this stupid mistake, but maybe someone else will avoid it by reading about my folly.

Anyway, I took the lower box back off and just my luck, no bolt sticking up to grab with vise grips. What to do? Time seemed to stand still so I don't know exactly how long I stood there swearing and stuff, but I decided to just put the box together hoping the four big bolts and the two smaller allen screws would hold up.

I still have the rear rocker cover to install. You can bet I'm going to be extremely careful with these bolts.

So, my question is: Should I leave things as they are hoping there won't be a major problem or do I need to get that front head off and drill out those bolts?
I'm planning on having some Stage II porting done this winter so I'm hoping I can just ride until the fall. I welcome everyone's opinions on this.

Going without those bolts is asking for trouble...

Ya gotta get'em out, and replace them....

im not sure how critical those bolts are to the running of the bike but im sure in time youll end up with warped covers and leaks all over. just do it right and fix em.

I would take the head off and remove the bolts. I cracked one as well several rears ago but investigated the pop and found the almost broken bolt and screwed it right out. I used aircraft quality bolts as a replacement. Try this, take a small drill and use a grinder to cut the drilling surface backwards and then try drilling it out backwards. Most of the time it gets a bite and screws the remaining piece out. I would not leae it in beause it mightcome out from the vibration and bind up a valve spring or ruin your rocker arms.

Make Sure You Get At Least grade 8 Bolts!!!!

Make Sure You Get At Least grade 8 Bolts!!!!

hey chuck, this ones for you...why does the moco use such low grade hardware all over the bike? im just curious. not comparing apples to oranges but my suzuki only had grade 8.8 or higher bolts on it.
also why havent they gone to metric hardware...just seems much better.

yep what they said I buy new bolts and screws when I change things I have a sack with carb screws for the top and bottom , derby cover screws and primary inspection screws , I even keep a couple of extra clips for the battery and oil tank covers, you can buy screw extractors at sears that work pretty good.
what ever you do get the bolts out and replace them they were not put there for cosmetic purposes.

what ever you do get the bolts out and replace them they were not put there for cosmetic purposes.

do they sell chrome ones with bar and shield stamped on it?:roflblack

If you can get your hands on a set (I keep meaning to get some myself) you might want to try a left-handed drill bit...tends to unscrew the broken bolt/stud as it's drilling. Of course you need a reversible drill as well.

Kim

hey chuck, this ones for you...why does the moco use such low grade hardware all over the bike? im just curious. not comparing apples to oranges but my suzuki only had grade 8.8 or higher bolts on it.
also why havent they gone to metric hardware...just seems much better.

I know I'm not chuck, but cost is likely the answer. Big american corperations are fuggin' CHEAP!!

I know I'm not chuck, but cost is likely the answer. Big american corperations are fuggin' CHEAP!!

they could just add the added cost to the bike...those jap bikes are priced pretty close to harleys now so its not like i wouldnt pay a couple hundred bucks more for better hardware on my american bike. i know metric on american...blah blah blah. working on foriegn cars for years, metric is better imo. atleast higher grade bolts.

Well guys thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to do what everyone suggests and just pull the head (s). This might be the time to send them to NRHS for at least some Stage I porting. I think I can afford that. At least I didn't assemble the rear box and have to undo that too. Thanks everyone who chimed in.

Lou P

You didnt mistake inch pounds for foot pounds? Also I got tiered of trying to exstract bolts my self, I just take them to a machins shop and they dont charge me to much.

hey chuck, this ones for you...why does the moco use such low grade hardware all over the bike? im just curious. not comparing apples to oranges but my suzuki only had grade 8.8 or higher bolts on it.
also why havent they gone to metric hardware...just seems much better.

I'm not a machinist, nor is this subject a forte' of mine, but I thought grade 8 were pretty good bolts.. :dunno

It seems the moco uses grade 8 for most "critical frasteners", and some of the rest aren't perhaps as strong because they generally don't NEED to be....just a guess...

Money IS a factor, I'm sure...

All in all, I'd say that "low-grade" isn't a fair analysis, IMHO.... ;)

All in all, I'd say that "low-grade" isn't a fair analysis, IMHO.... ;)

low grade as in hardness, not quality. there hardware quality is fine but why a low hardness?

Quick google found me this:

http://www.sizes.com/tools/bolts_SAEtork.htm

It seems grade 8 is the highest grade made in SAE....

But this is an interesting thought from that site:

It isn't always a good idea to replace a bolt with a stronger one. Some bolts are deliberately chosen so that they are weak enough to fail before the stress or strain damages some more expensive or critical part of the equipment. For the same reason, in making furniture cabinetmakers use glues that are weaker than wood. That way, if the furniture is overloaded, the joints break. It is much easier to reglue a broken joint than to replace a piece of broken wood.

As for metric....don't ask me.....I HATE metric... :laugh

This is why I have a professional do this kind of work on Annabelle.

Quick google found me this:

http://www.sizes.com/tools/bolts_SAEtork.htm

It seems grade 8 is the highest grade made in SAE....

But this is an interesting thought from that site:

It isn't always a good idea to replace a bolt with a stronger one. Some bolts are deliberately chosen so that they are weak enough to fail before the stress or strain damages some more expensive or critical part of the equipment. For the same reason, in making furniture cabinetmakers use glues that are weaker than wood. That way, if the furniture is overloaded, the joints break. It is much easier to reglue a broken joint than to replace a piece of broken wood.

As for metric....don't ask me.....I HATE metric... :laugh


metric was thrown in there cause the majority of my tools are metric.

ive heard most racers use lower grade bolts in suspension slow they will flex under load rather than snap. but as far as engine hardware ide want the highest grade. i know, now i am beating a dead horse. im a vw tech, most bolts are even higher grade like 10.9 . ultimatley you should learn to feel when your stressing a bolt to its limit...yes you can feel when its about to snap.

I should be able to feel when a bolt is stressed. That's what I get for working long after I was tired.

Anyway here's an update. Not the big catastrophe I first thought. I got the front cylinder head off. While I was taking it off I thought that I might just get the bolts drilled out and put it back together and save my money for the full Stage II porting instead of removing the other cylinder head too. I was figuring I'd have to wait weeks for the heads to come back. I could just take the front head to my local speed shop that did my Chevy SBC heads and be quick about it. When I got the head off I noticed that a tiny bit of each bolt was slightly sticking up. I thought I might try to tap them with a tiny screwdriver and see if I could free them up. Great news! They all easily came out with hand turning. I probably could have left them on the cylinders, but oh well. This is much better than I thought. I'm gettin' new bolts and a head gasket and I'll be golden.

I learned another lesson from reading everyone's posts about cheap MoCo fasteners. All last night I couldn't sleep blaming myself for the big problem I caused. What I should have been doing instead was blaming Harley Davidson for all of this. Now I'm gonna go to the dealer and righteously rant about their cheap bolts. It's not my fault at all. I'm a victim of the MoCo. Now I can join a support group and vent my anger with others who've been victimized by HD. Much more effective than self-blame. Maybe I could turn this support group thing into a business since I'm a licensed therapist.

I'm still going to post my impression of the N4s when I can ride it. I'm going to get it dynoed also so I'll be able to see the difference in actual numbers.

Thanks again everyone.

Lou

I learned another lesson from reading everyone's posts about cheap MoCo fasteners. All last night I couldn't sleep blaming myself for the big problem I caused. What I should have been doing instead was blaming Harley Davidson for all of this. Now I'm gonna go to the dealer and righteously rant about their cheap bolts. It's not my fault at all. I'm a victim of the MoCo. Now I can join a support group and vent my anger with others who've been victimized by HD. Much more effective than self-blame. Maybe I could turn this support group thing into a business since I'm a licensed therapist.


Lou

sure, ill join that group:rolleyes: :roflblack

Learn to read the hardness scale on the bolt head. 3 bars is 5 hardness, 5 is 7 etc. More is better but counterfeit is possible. Aircraft hardware has this problem also. The temptation for a parts type to order cheap hardware to increase his take home % is scary. Metric uses a number scale-8.8 is good, higher is better. With standard be careful about fine or coarse thread!
Matt

Learn to read the hardness scale on the bolt head. 3 bars is 5 hardness, 5 is 7 etc. More is better but counterfeit is possible. Aircraft hardware has this problem also. The temptation for a parts type to order cheap hardware to increase his take home % is scary. Metric uses a number scale-8.8 is good, higher is better. With standard be careful about fine or coarse thread!
Matt

used to work on big diesel trucks. all standard hardware, found good quality hardware at that truck service. Bowman fasteners...i look for them when i need to replace standard hardware.

I'm most certainly no expert on this subject and I very rarely use a torque wrench. I don't even own one. I borrow my brother in laws as he is a "retired" bike mechanic and has a HUGE selection of tools he stores in one of my sheds.

Over the years I've developed a kinda "feel" for tighening fasteners (non critical)

But Dave (bro in law) tells me whenever I use a torque wrench I should make sure the threads are dry and cleaned of all oil residue. Apparently oil can sometimes give a false torque reading, meaning you are actually tightening the fastener too tight due to the oil residue on the threads.

Sounds feasable but I can't confirm this. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/gronk62/smileys/2cents.gif

Don't feel too bad, I did this exact same thing just a few weeks ago except I only broke off one. Then I went to Ace Hardware for replacements. I was very fortunate in that it broke off above the surface of the head and I was able to take the rocker box off and spin it out with my fingers. I felt like a total idiot, but couldn't figure out what I did wrong.

The company I work for does a lot of work for foreign heavy equipment manufactures and we use a ton of metric hardware.
As far as strength,
Metric grade 8.8 = SAE grade 5
Metric grade 10.9 = SAE grade 8
In fact we don't even stock anything but grade 10.9 and grade 8.

Broken fasteners really s*ck! Sorry to hear about your difficulty. There's lot's of tricks (including clever use of superglue) to extract broken parts.

For all in this forum, threaded fasteners are really sophisticated items. Some of their engineering properties are still poorly understood. Since they are manufactured in such large quantities, in a highly competitive market, they are subject to statistical variations within the same lot. The "permanent stretching" point (yeild strength) varies somewhat from bolts outta the same box.

In any event, it is important to realize that no fasterner should be subjected to bending or loosening in service, else it is practicaly guaranteed to fail in fatigue mode. The preload (a measure of the clamping force generated by the fastener in the joint being made) is the correct engineering term used, and is the real goal of the joint design....not torque, not "tightness", PRELOAD!

If a fastener is preloaded ("tightened") enough so that the load imposed by the joint (standing on a footpeg, or restraining repeated combustion forces in the cylinder head) never reaches the residual preload existing after some service (yeah, they RELAX with service), THE FASTENER NEVER EXPERIENCES THE SERVICE LOAD, AND DOES NOT FATIGUE! IT'S A PROVEN FACT THE VAST MAJORITY OF FASTENERS THAT BREAK IN SERVICE ARE DUE TO INSUFFICIENT PRELOAD (were not tight enough).

Reusing fasteners is acceptable practice, as long as it is recognized that the fastener must not have been damaged from prior service (has cracked), AND that repeated retightening of small fasteners will produce increased preload at the same torque level (the threads wear in to each other and "work" better).

Lubrication of the parts has a very significant effect on preload vs. torque. So does plating.

The different "grades" of steel or low alloy bolts refers to the yeild strength of the material used, which is effected by the "receipe" of the steel and the heat teatment of the fastener. THe higher the grade, the higher the yeild strength, and higher preload (higher tightness) that can be safely used. You never want to use a fastener at or higher than the yeild strength. 75% of yeild is safer, to stay within the "elastic range" of the material. Bolts actually stretch when tightened, and will return to their original length when losened if used within the "elastic range".

Operating temperatures within our machines are not much of a challenge for most fasterners (exept perhaps in exhaust assemblies). You gotta get above, say, 500 degrees F service temperature to start to even look at alloys rather than plain carbon steels. Thats where the cost factor starts to begin.

As a personal recommendation, look real close at "Supertanium" Fasteners that used to be made by Premier Industrial Group in Cleveland. They had amongst the highest quality and yeild strengths available for industrial and racing use.

Attached is a common torque vs preload chart used in many industries. It's got some really good info. Good 7/16" coarse thead bolts shouldn't have failed at 10 ft-lbs of torque, unless they were damaged fro prior service. Thats only about 30,000 PSI preload, which ain't much of a challange for steel. OOPS, i'ts in paperport, I gotta convert it to JPG to upload. Later....

Now, what they thread into...another whole new story!!!


Also, thread you new bolts into a scrap nut in a vice with a stack of washers and determine the torque they break with your torque wrench. Stay well below that value....

I will add my $.02:

The hardware HD uses inside the rocker boxes is fine. It's grade 8, plenty hard and plenty strong. The metric 8.8 is like a grade 5 SAE, so it's not apples to apples.

I have to admit when I first started reading of people snapping off the 1/4" fasteners in the rocker boxes, my first thought was that people were using a ft lbs torque wrench, set as low as it will go, and that it is absolutely inaccurate that close to the bottom of the scale. I think the bottom 20% of the scale is inaccurate on most torque wrenches. I know I posted it before but I can't find the info right now.

So, my guess would be that in being over cautious, and "doing the right thing" by using a torque wrench, people are putting faith in a tool that is inaccurate. Plus, those torque wrench are pretty long and you have a lot of leverage. Much easier to snap off a bolt in a hurry, as opposed to using a 6" long 1/4" rachet and 7/16" socket: much harder tighten to far when you're using that short a wrench. It also feels like it's much shorter, so you stop tightening sooner.

Knock on wood: I have never snapped off a rocker box fastener in over 18 years of wrenching on HD motors. Not bragging at all (sorry if it sounds like I am), but, the point is: the hardware is plenty strong, plenty hard. I still have stock bolts inside my rocker boxes from 1988, and have no problems. I think my top end has probably been apart at least a dozen times.

Not bragging at all, but if they are snapping, there's something going on, and I don't think it's the quality of the fasteners.

The other thing is, as most people here have posted when you snap one off due to over-torquing, they are easy to extract. The piece comes right out of the head when you remove the lower cover to get at it. When you cross thread them, bottom them out (wrong hole?) or run them into a hole with sand or bead blast in it, and they break, you have a whole different problem.

--Chris

(p.s. there's a whole 'nother thing that can be going on too, and that's the effect of lubrication (Loctite, engine oil, anti-seize) on the threads of the bolt, and using the factory spec for torque on a dry fastener. Basically, the lubrication reduces friction, and you are actually stretching the fastener more when you torque a bolt to spec if you have loctite on it, vs. torquing a bolt to spec dry. -- Think about that one for a while. I had a hard time explaining that one to mechanics in the past. It might make no sense on the surface. I will try to find something authoritative to back me up ;) )

Sorry turbguy, I was working on a post at the same time as you and walked all over some of your points.

--Chris

IT'S A PROVEN FACT THE VAST MAJORITY OF FASTENERS THAT BREAK IN SERVICE ARE DUE TO INSUFFICIENT PRELOAD (were not tight enough).

In reading all the posts about broken rocker cover fasteners, I think most people have been saying they broke on installation, not during service. I think that's an important distinction.

I agree 100% on the fasteners failing in service due to insufficient preload (tension.) I see this on rear pulley bolts and even spokes all the time.

Good info in your post. Thanks. Looking for a chart on lubrication effect on torque values. I know I have it here somewhere...

--Chris

No problem! You made some very good, practical points. Torque wrenches are really misunderstood, and if used with blind faith, can be the source of many problems.

The bolts you snapped were grade 7. I upgraded to grade 8 when I snapped 2 myself. The book says to tighten them 10-13ft lbs, I snapped one and had the click wrench set to 10. Don't be hard on yourself. I did the same thing and turned around and threw the POS torque wrench through the garage door. Went out to Sears and bought a Craftsman beam type wrench. Tightened up using the Craftsman and snapped another one at 9 ft lbs. I guess the other wrench was probably OK.

Found the chart I was thinking of. It's from Pocket Ref by Thomas J. Glover. INDISPENSIBLE, IMHO. Like The Old Farmers' Almanac for technically oriented people.

Anyway:

http://www.chrishajer.com/bike/XLF/torque.jpg

The section I was referring to is in the lower left. Hope you can read it. Basically, it's saying that a 5/16-18 threaded bolt, with no lube, bare steel and a torque spec of 29 ft lbs (from a manual for example), would need to be torqued to:

19 ft lbs when plated and cleaned (sounds close to the HD spec, almost)
18 ft lbs when lubed with SAE 20 oil
17 ft lbs with SAE 40 oil
16 ft lbs with KY or Astroglide (just snuck that in to see if you were paying attention)
16 ft lbs plated, with SAE 30 oil
16 ft lbs with white grease (umm, yeah, ok - how about Crisco?)
14 ft lbs using dry moly
13 ft lbs using graphite & oil

There's no mention in the book of Loctite, but there is some stuff online that will turn up if you use this Google search (http://www.google.com/search?q=effect+of+loctite+on+torque+spec) ;)

--Chris

chris and others, i see what your saying about torque and grade8 metric is equivilent to 5 standard and all...i dont have charts or facts to bring to the table. what i do have is about 16 years experience working on vw's and have never broke one metric fastener using a torque wrench dry or lubed with oil or loktite. im not trying to start anything, really im not, its just my opinion that the quality of metric hardware is better than most standard hardware.
ill see if i can barrow my shops DIN book to see what is mentioned about hardware...for those not familiar, robert bently publishes a book(simply DIN book) for german automobile and industry standards which specs out everything from wire gauge to types of acceptable valvetrains. there is a section on hardware, what sizes be used for what application, thread pitch, and hardness.

chris and others, i see what your saying about torque and grade8 metric is equivilent to 5 standard and all...i dont have charts or facts to bring to the table. what i do have is about 16 years experience working on vw's and have never broke one metric fastener using a torque wrench dry or lubed with oil or loktite. im not trying to start anything, really im not, its just my opinion that the quality of metric hardware is better than most standard hardware.
ill see if i can barrow my shops DIN book to see what is mentioned about hardware...for those not familiar, robert bently publishes a book(simply DIN book) for german automobile and industry standards which specs out everything from wire gauge to types of acceptable valvetrains. there is a section on hardware, what sizes be used for what application, thread pitch, and hardness.
I for one know you're not. :)

It may be true about metric fasteners; I have no experience with them, unless Whitworth counts, and it doesn't, but it sure sucked. I would also say I have about 16 years of working on HD with their "crappy hardware" and have never broken a fastener :) I have also worked with techs who could break an anvil with a hammer, any Snap-on tool, and pretty much any fastener on a Harley, and they were damn proud of it. There might be something to the technique.

An interesting discussion for sure.

--Chris

I for one know you're not. :)

It may be true about metric fasteners; I have no experience with them, unless Whitworth counts, and it doesn't, but it sure sucked. I would also say I have about 16 years of working on HD with their "crappy hardware" and have never broken a fastener :) I have also worked with techs who could break an anvil with a hammer, any Snap-on tool, and pretty much any fastener on a Harley, and they were damn proud of it. There might be something to the technique.

An interesting discussion for sure.

--Chris

like you mentioned earlier, it does come down to feel. do you use a torque wrench for everything? i dont. a few times when i set my toque wrench to wrong specs...yeah it happens, i knew i was going to far and stopped.

btw im not picking on harley...love my bike and when i did my conversion just a few nights ago i didnt break any bolts either.;) :banana

do you use a torque wrench for everything?
F:censorck no.

I have a calibrated elbow though: when it clicks, it's time to stop tightening. May be arthritis setting in ..... almost 40 you know...

--Chris

F:censorck no.

I have a calibrated elbow though: when it clicks, it's time to stop tightening. May be arthritis setting in ..... almost 40 you know...

--Chris

my back is calibrated to go out when torqueing head bolts...ok enough, im feeling old now.

...im not trying to start anything, really im not, its just my opinion that the quality of metric hardware is better than most standard hardware...
And not only is it better quality, but it is also far more technicaly advanced than that rubbishy old imperial stuff.

That was Sooooo last century!!

I think its time the USA caught up with the rest of the planet.























:sofa

Oh wow my head hurts!(j/k great info guys keep it comin)I remember when I changed my covers to chrome I could't get my torque wrench into play at a position that I was comfortable with and after looking at the specs for torque on all the fastners I figured I could skate a little on the small ones and do em by feel the bigger ones I think I torque wrenched but the oil journal bolt seemed to be the most critical and also the highest torque value of all of them landed up doin that one by feel also no torque wrench position 6 months of riding now so I geuss I did ok.

I broke the same bolt while doing my 1200 conversion on my 06 883. The bolts look cheap, black, with a shoulder under the head. I rushed down to the local hardware store, and bought cap (allen) headed bolts, and grade 8 flat washers to go under them. They torqued down with no problem. I've also noticed that any of the other smaller stock allen headed bolts in the bike, will strip, (round out) very easy, if you don't get the wrench all the way in the hole. It seems they are very soft. I fear that there are a lot more "imported" parts in our so called "american" bikes, than we realize.:shhhh

lets not go bashing hd all the way, alot of blame can be contributed to operator of tool. you must inspect hardware and clean before reinstallation. i used my torque wrench for headbolts and rocker arm bolts only. everything else was torqued by feel. maybe the torque settings in maual are too high for given bolts...you should be able to feel when your cranking on a bolt thats too small for that much torque.
as far as metric, thatll probably come when they add a radiator to the front of the sportster.

now everybody be good...daddy has to go to work

The one thing we've found, whether metric or SAE, is who made it and where.

Has someone mentioned that you can get broke studs out with an 'easy out'?
It takes careful drilling in to what remains of the stud, then you just put the easyout in and out comes the stud.... just make sure you have sharp drills, a good centre punch and some GOOD QUALITY FORGED easy outs. The cheap suckers break off...then you really do have a problem! ;)

Whiffy

But Dave (bro in law) tells me whenever I use a torque wrench I should make sure the threads are dry and cleaned of all oil residue. Apparently oil can sometimes give a false torque reading, meaning you are actually tightening the fastener too tight due to the oil residue on the threads.

I disagree, false reading come from dry threads, I've seen Chevy head bolts strip because they were installed dry.

Lubrication of the parts has a very significant effect on preload vs. torque. So does plating.


Good point.

(p.s. there's a whole 'nother thing that can be going on too, and that's the effect of lubrication (Loctite, engine oil, anti-seize) on the threads of the bolt, and using the factory spec for torque on a dry fastener. Basically, the lubrication reduces friction, and you are actually stretching the fastener more when you torque a bolt to spec if you have loctite on it, vs. torquing a bolt to spec dry. -- Think about that one for a while. I had a hard time explaining that one to mechanics in the past. It might make no sense on the surface. I will try to find something authoritative to back me up

Threads need some type of lube, oil, thread sealer, Loctite, etc. The following is from ARP's website, one of the leaders in aftermarket performance fasteners. NASCAR couldn't race without these guys.

1. The friction factor changes from one application to the next. That is, the friction is at its highest value when the fastener is first tightened. Each additional time the fastener is torqued and loosened, this value gets smaller. Eventually the friction levels out and becomes constant for all following repetitions. Therefore, new fasteners should be tightened and loosened through several cycles before applying final torque. The number of times depends on the lubricant. For all situations where ARP lubricants are used, five cycles are required before final torquing.

2. The lubricant used is the main factor in determining friction, and therefore, the torque for a particular installation. Motor oil is a commonly used lubricant because of it’s ready availability. If less friction is desired in order to install the fasteners with less torque, special low friction lubricants are available. With special lubes, the required torque can be reduced as much as 20 to 30 percent. It is important to keep in mind that the reverse is also true. If the torque value has been specified for a particular fastener on the basis of low friction lube, installing the fastener with motor oil will result in insufficient preload; the torque has to be increased to compensate for the extra friction caused by the motor oil.

3. Surface finish is also important. For example, black oxide behaves differently than a polished fastener. It is therefore important to observe the torque recommendations supplied with each fastener.

NOTE: It is possible for even the most expensive of torque wrenches to lose accuracy. We have seen fluctuations of as much as ten (10) foot pounds of torque from wrench to wrench. Please have your torque wrench checked periodically for accuracy.

chris and others, i see what your saying about torque and grade8 metric is equivilent to 5 standard and all...i dont have charts or facts to bring to the table. what i do have is about 16 years experience working on vw's and have never broke one metric fastener using a torque wrench dry or lubed with oil or loktite. im not trying to start anything, really im not, its just my opinion that the quality of metric hardware is better than most standard hardware.
ill see if i can barrow my shops DIN book to see what is mentioned about hardware...for those not familiar, robert bently publishes a book(simply DIN book) for german automobile and industry standards which specs out everything from wire gauge to types of acceptable valvetrains. there is a section on hardware, what sizes be used for what application, thread pitch, and hardness.


hahaha have (Bosch) din book in hand...gotta be an engineer to read this thing. has hardness scales and tensile strength but is in nm not ftlbs. ide need to do conversions to make any sence of it. too much info...
does say they are cold formed hardened then edges rolled...whatever. like i sayed im a tech not an engineer, i just bored myself with info:frownthre

I have one of those too: the blue cover one?

WAY TOO MUCH information for me. It's all theory anyway until the rubber hits the road.

--Chris

I have one of those too: the blue cover one?

WAY TOO MUCH information for me. It's all theory anyway until the rubber hits the road.

--Chris


yup, blue cover and says bosch on it. cool stuff in it but way too much info:dunno

Alright enough already with the hardness and fine points of all of this. I'm sure I overtorqued these bolts. I have a big Craftsman torque wrench and I'm sure I am more responsible for snapping them off than the quality of the fastener.

The HD dealer didn't have them is stock so I got them from my local hardware store.

Since I pulled the head, I also disturbed the lower pushrod cover seals. I can't get them to go on right. They're so tight they pop out.

The dealer sold me the funkiest head gasket. It is not as large as the one that come off the cylinder. It isn't even round. I almost put it on without checking it. I'm glad I compared it to the old one. I'm going back to that dealer again for the right one. I'm wanting a discount now since I've made a couple of trips to them because they gave me wrong stuff.

remove the push rod seal plate thing and slide pushrods up from the bottom.

use a quarte inch ratchet and extention. hold ratchet near head and tighten. after it seats snug,turn another 1/8 turn all with quarter inch tools.

Alright enough already with the hardness and fine points of all of this. I'm sure I overtorqued these bolts. I have a big Craftsman torque wrench and I'm sure I am more responsible for snapping them off than the quality of the fastener.

Sorry


The HD dealer didn't have them is stock so I got them from my local hardware store.

Make sure they are grade 8 - they're generally hard to find at your normal hardware stores.


Since I pulled the head, I also disturbed the lower pushrod cover seals. I can't get them to go on right. They're so tight they pop out.

The lower seals? Sometimes, I just replace the whole aluminum piece with the seal in it already, rather than dick around with the seals in the gasket kit. There are two different ones (so 2 of each) - it saves a lot of time. Sometimes the old ones get warped and won't sit flat enough to seal any more.


The dealer sold me the funkiest head gasket. It is not as large as the one that come off the cylinder. It isn't even round. I almost put it on without checking it. I'm glad I compared it to the old one. I'm going back to that dealer again for the right one. I'm wanting a discount now since I've made a couple of trips to them because they gave me wrong stuff.
Might be an 883 gasket, with an egg-shaped chamber. Good thing you checked. If it's hanging into the cylinder at all, then that's no good. Makes for a very interesting tuning problem and noise.

What's with dealers and the wrong parts? I don't get that.

--Chris

What's with dealers and the wrong parts? I don't get that.

--Chris

parts managers get thier kids summer jobs...in the parts dept:roflblack

:iagree

You know what, I know that to be ABSOLUTELY true. But, why does it happen all year long then :sofa

--Chris

:iagree

You know what, I know that to be ABSOLUTELY true. But, why does it happen all year long then :sofa

--Chris

the parts dept at my shop is pretty good, they dont guess. they are not vw techs. when they dont know an ambient temp switch from a coolant temp switch they ask one of the techs...usually me cause my bay is next to the parts window.
at my last job the parts guys would be on poker.com or looking up ebay all day. thier only idea of work was getting the customer out the door...it worked cause that dealership is going down faster than the titanic. in all fairness though they did have one parts guy that had been doing it for years and when you asked for a part that sounded funny he would ask what is the car doing and would suggest a different part...most times he fixed the cars. he left and went to the dealership (chevy) next to my vw shop. there are some good ones but not enough to go around.

Well tonight I got the motor all back together. Front cylinder head went on alright. Rocker boxes too. I ended up using an old pushrod lower seal. Still tight as a you know what, but didn't pop out like the brand new one. Hope it doesn't leak.

One good thing about having to take the head off was getting to see that it wasn't a very big deal after all and I won't be afraid to tackle it again when I want head work done this winter.

Went to Sears after work and got an in-lbs torque wrench. I think it's money well spent. Most of the requirements for HD are right in the middle of the wrenches limits.

Unfortunately, when yanking the carb to remove the head the day after I broke the rocker box bolts, I broke off the nipple on the VOES. Guess who didn't have one in stock? There's three other HD dealers in the area so I'll get one from them. I'm kind of glad I didn't have the VOES tonight though. I would have been tempted to put it all back together and ride it. As it turned out it was getting too dark to see and the skeeters were bitin'.

I get poor gas mileage, by the way. When I took the carb apart I found a 48pilot jet and a 185 main. Since I commute in rush hour I'm mostly not into the throttle. I wonder if the 48 pilot jet is killing my mileage. I also found the mixture screw turned out three turns. Before I started the cam change I turned it back in to two turns. Mileage improved slightly.

When I get it running I'm going to let the dealer dyno tune it. They want $68 per hour for tuning on the dyno. They said it would take about three hours max. I'll post what numbers I get.

Thanks to everyone for all of the useful comments and technical advice.

1. A 48 pilot is likely way too rich. How about the needle? What number, and is it shimmed?

2. $68 per hour is not bad for dyno tuning (It's between $80 and $100/hr around Chicago.) It might be done in less than an hour if it's close right now, otherwise it could be around 2 hours to make adjustments and get it dialed in. If it's really close, they'll know right off the bat and there will be no tuning, and way LESS time than an hour. Run it, it's perfect, thank you, have a nice day. Better to prepare for the worst (3 hours) than to tell you it will be 1 hour and have it take 3. It will most likely be less than 3.

--Chris

Head off Bike, Easy outs, worst comes to worst drill re-tap. But take care of it, get it together right, I'm sure missing a few extra riding days is a lot better than having a piece of bolt drop into the top end.

The good news was that all of the broken bolts came out by hand. The bad news was I pulled the head off and had it sitting in my lap before I realized that all three broken pieces turned easily by hand. Oh, well.

The motor is back together and running very strong. However, I have not yet shifted from first to second at 6K. It's a little scary yet for me.
The exhaust has a totally different sound. I need to play with the jetting and get the timing right to make it perfect.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Lou P