The N4 cams are in! I started it up this morning after getting the air cleaner on. Fired right up. The usual loud clattering which went away after a few minutes. I didn't worry about that sound at all. I knew it was coming because I read about it here on the forum.

Not a drop! No leaks of any kind.

The exhaust sounds totally different. Kind of a flat blatting sound. Mean and aggressive.
Since I was up for more than twenty four hours working my second job, I didn't want to totally wind it up in first and second gear at WOT.

But, all I can say is WOW. It runs smoother. Throttle response at low speed is crisp and instantaneous. I didn't lose anything off the bottom end either.

Now for tuning issues. It has a 48 slow jet and a 185 main, Bassani Pro Streets , a SE/AC with a K and N filter, and a SE ignition module with 6800 rev limit. Before the cam change the mileage was poor and low speed throttle response was sluggish. Plugs were sooty. Now low speed response is crisp. Instant response.

However, at higher engine speeds when cracking the throttle open at 60 mph in 5th gear, there is no quick response. I'm wondering if the 185 main jet is hurting me. The dealer gave me a 195 and 200 to try. Didn't have a 195.

Also I wondering if the timing is off. When I took out the ignition module I made a mark with a very fine pointed instrument. When lining these two marks up I did it under a magnifying glass. Thought I was being very precise.

So, could the timing be off?

Is it my main jet? Also the dealer told me that they installed an "SE carb kit" which contained a new design jet needle.

I welcome your valuable comments. You guys have helped me get this far. Thanks in advance.

Now I know you put cams in, but is it standard operation procedure to go up 4 to 5 sizes on the main jet with just a few mods?

I've got a 883 with just a stage 1 and only went up one step to a 165. The plugs were really sooty with the 170.

Unless I'm wrong, I always thought the 1200's, cept for the sport, came with 170 mains.

In my factory manual for 2001 it says stock is 42/160 for 883 all states and 42/170 for California models.

On the 1200 it's 42 and 170/95 for all states (I guess it's a range 170 to 195) and 42/185/195 for California models.

Hope this helps.

My suggestion ... install a 45 pilot jet, a 170 main, and about .030" shim under the needle. Start out with 2 1/2 turns on the idle mixture screw. Set the idle to about 950 rpm.

With your mods, you should be fine.

Too rich an AFR will hurt HP.
____________________________________________

Read this:

It don't matter whether or not your bike is bone stock, or a "Stage 1" .... Stock, the 04-06 bikes run too lean at idle and partial throttle acceleration, but too rich a Wide Open Throttle (WOT). Steady cruise Air / Fuel Ratio (AFR) is the only thing that is correct from the factory.

The Keihin CV carburetor’s idle and just off-idle AFR is controlled by the pilot jet which is fine-tuned with idle mixture screw. Both the pilot jet size and the idle mixture screw setting are important for a proper idle and throttle “tip-in” … thus eliminating the majority of “carb farts” most of these bikes suffer from.

During 1/8 to 1/4 part throttle and steady cruise, the fuel mixture is controlled by the straight-diameter part of the needle together with the inside diameter of the main jet in which the needle rides.

From about 1/4 to 3/4 throttle (during normal acceleration), the tapered part of the needle controls the mixture. This range is also too lean for best engine performance on stock 04-06 XLs and can be fixed with either the thinner Dynojet needle or shimming the stock needle.

The main jet by itself takes over at about 3/4 throttle and WOT operation since the needle is then completely pulled out of the jet.
_______________________________________________

1. Fix the idle and off-idle lean condition with the 45 pilot jet. Set the idle mixture screw to 2 1/2 turns.

2. Fix the part throttle lean condition (during normal acceleration) with the thinner Dynojet needle or shimming the stock needle. If you use the Dynojet kit, the C-clip should be installed in the 3rd notch from the top. The 3 washers provided in the kit need to be placed above the C-clip per the instructions. If you elect to use the stock needle, place a total of approx .030” shims (small M4 washers under the needle).

Note: Shimming the needle much more than .030" will kill cruise fuel mileage

3. Install a 170 or a 175 main jet to fix the overly rich AFR while operating at WOT. A stock 04-06 XL1200 has a 180 main jet. This change in the main jet will also gain HP at WOT.

Note: This combo of the now smaller main jet, but re-calibrated needle will maintain the correct AFR and fuel mileage during part throttle steady cruise.

4. Drill the slide hole: On the bottom of the slide are two holes. The center hole is for the jet needle. Don't mess with it. The second hole is off-center (see photo below). This is the vacuum port. This hole needs to be drilled out just slightly with a #29 drill bit. This step will allow for a slighty “snappier” throttle response.

http://x402.putfile.com/4/10421512593.jpg

5. Leave the stock slide spring in the carb. If you are using the Dynojet kit, the spring that is provided is too light and will cause carb farts and possibly some surging during acceleration.

6. Make sure there are no vacuum leaks, and make sure the slide diaphram is fully seated in the groove prior to installing the carb's top cover.

7. After the carb is all put back together ... with your finger, move the slide fully up. Make sure it falls back down freely. Just make sure the slide and needle assembly are not jammed.
______________________________________________

Note: Proper AFR on the dyno when at WOT should be between 12.7 -1 and 13.0 -1

If your AFR is not correct at WOT while on the dyno, make a change of the main jet.

Turbota were you talking to me or Mattbastard? If your were talking to me I'd really be going smaller to go to a 45/170 setup.

Also, when I had a baseline dyno run with everything but the cams the dyno sheet said on the bottom: dynorun 001 Max AIR/FUEL=17.5

What does this mean? Too lean or rich?

When shimming the needle, is this the needle that is accessed through the top of the carb? Or is it from underneath?
Thanks,

Lou

Now for tuning issues. It has a 48 slow jet and a 185 main, Bassani Pro Streets , a SE/AC with a K and N filter, and a SE ignition module with 6800 rev limit. Before the cam change the mileage was poor and low speed throttle response was sluggish. Plugs were sooty. Now low speed response is crisp. Instant response.

However, at higher engine speeds when cracking the throttle open at 60 mph in 5th gear, there is no quick response. I'm wondering if the 185 main jet is hurting me. The dealer gave me a 195 and 200 to try. Didn't have a 195

Is it my main jet? Also the dealer told me that they installed an "SE carb kit" which contained a new design jet needle.

I welcome your valuable comments. You guys have helped me get this far. Thanks in advance.

I am responding to the post above.

Now, I know all carbs are different, but I made 90 rwhp with a CV carb on my bike and a 170 main jet. I can almost guaranty that your 185 is way too much jet for your engine.

Ron,

I would time it before I did ANYTHING else.....but that's me...I'm like that....

:)

A 17.5 air/fuel ratio sounds excessively lean! I would richen that baby up big time!

Oh, and how is the performance difference in the N4's? I know you said that you didnt lose anything down low, but what did you gain on the top end? I am stuck in between N4's and N8's and I'm trying to talk to as many people as possible. Thanks for any info you can give me, and good luck with your tuning. :)

A 17.5 air/fuel ratio sounds excessively lean! I would richen that baby up big time!

Oh, and how is the performance difference in the N4's? I know you said that you didnt lose anything down low, but what did you gain on the top end? I am stuck in between N4's and N8's and I'm trying to talk to as many people as possible. Thanks for any info you can give me, and good luck with your tuning. :)

Hybri,

Do you like to run at high revs? Do you want to race your bike?

I haven't got the high speed/top end part tuned right yet, but if, when it's right it's like how the bottom end is now, Holy Shite! It's gonna run.

I'm going to time it since I have the manual and a timing light. Can't be much different than my small block Chevy.

Next I'll think about the smaller jets. What the heck, couldn't hurt to try. Thanks guys.

Lou

Turbota,

What about that 17.5 AFR? Does this mean too lean to you also? And now that the cams are in would I be leaner still?

Tomorrow I'll do the timing and post what it runs like after.

Turbota,

What about that 17.5 AFR? Does this mean too lean to you also? And now that the cams are in would I be leaner still?

Tomorrow I'll do the timing and post what it runs like after.

What that means is the dyno's AFR measurment equipment was screwed up. No way would you be that lean.

Here is a dyno sheet when I had a CV carb on my bike. The wide open throttle (WOT) AFR stays at approx 13.2 (ideal) at low and high revs, but richens up to 11.98 at around 4,500 revs ... too rich

http://f5.putfile.com/6/16020591772.jpg

That 17.5 would put it almost off the chart. Again, no way it will run that lean.

You can see on the chart that they even put a red line where the idea AFR at WOT should be ...

Turbota,
You got me looking at the dyno sheet a little more carefully. I don't know why they put that 17.5 number on there. The actual graph shows a little bump up to about 14.2 at 2700 RPM then levels out staying between 13 and 14 up to 6000 RPM. Does that seem a little lean still?

That's not bad (if it's accurate)

A 185 main jet and black sooty plugs tells me different.


Here is a partial quote from a Car Craft document:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_tune/

AFR for Best Power:

We mentioned the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio (14.7:1) that is the ideal ratio for lowest emissions, but this isn't the best ratio for power. It used to be that 12.5:1 was considered the best power ratio, but with improved combustion chambers and hotter ignition systems, the ideal now is around 12.8:1 to 13.2:1. This is roughly 13 parts of air to one part fuel. It's what combustion engineers call an excess fuel ratio and is intended to ensure that all the air is used to support the combustion process. This is because air is the oxidizer in combustion. Too many enthusiasts think that adding additional fuel beyond the ideal to create a richer mixture will make more power. This doesn't work because you can only burn the fuel when you have enough air to support combustion. That's why engines make more power when you add a supercharger or nitrous--you're shoving more air in the cylinder so that you can burn more fuel. Regardless of the amount of air in the cylinder, it still requires a given ratio of fuel to burn. Add too much extra fuel, and power will decrease.

Ron, I really dig what you've written up about the dynojet kit here. I've shied away from the dyno jet and drilling the slide, but with your input here, it all seems to make sense.

Chuck, where are you on the matter of drilling the slide today? I remember a "homework" assignment you reported on that came across to me as ambivalent. Where are you on that topic now?

I gave a friend of mine my old Dynojet needle. He replaced his stock shimmed needle with it.

His impression: The bike is quicker and runs better.

Turbota,
When I sold my '94 Chevy truck with the 431 HP small block I let my subscription to Car Craft lapse. I remember reading that same article though. Thanks for your helpful input. I'm going to do the timing first since I have everything I need and then the jetting.

At NHRS's website under tech topics,instructions there is a part about timing and how you cant just mark it.Its a really good read.

IamVince,
I couldn't find the timing article on NRHS website. Could you post the link?

Here's what happened today when I tried to time the beast.

Using the FSM I tried to first set static timing. Very simple and easy steps.
Turn on ignition.
Loosen cam sensor plate.
Turn it until the red LED on the ignition module lights up.

My SE ignition module didn't light up at all. When I started the motor it flickered with each firing, but not if the motor wasn't running. So much for setting static timing.

But hey, I've got a Craftsman Inductive Timing Light so I can do the dynamic timing thing. I unscrew the timing plug. Start it up. Oil mist blowing out the hole. I did my timing light like I used to for my SBC Chevy. Red clip on the postive battery terminal. Black clip on a good ground. Induction sensor on the front spark plug wire. It didn't work at all. The timing light didn't strobe at all no matter which way and how far I twisted the cam sensor plate. So now what?

I drove the bike with the timing set so that it would start easily and not idle too fast. I have no idea whether it's advanced, retarded or just right. At low engine speed the throttle response is still crisp. It seems to hesitate when I crack the throttle at highway speeds in 5th gear.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Chuck, where are you on the matter of drilling the slide today? I remember a "homework" assignment you reported on that came across to me as ambivalent. Where are you on that topic now?

I say stay outta the top of the carb.....For many folks, even shimming is completely unneccesary...All depends on your riding style, really, but I don't suggest drilling the vac-port to anyone....

Cantolina,

I won't drill anything, but tell me what you think of my timing woes.

I also installed a new VOES since I snapped off the nipple on the original one when yanking the carb off. The dealer said it's set at the factory, but adjustable. I just put it on. No problems starting or anything.

Why won't by Craftsman timing light work? I don't think I dropped it. I tried to try it on another vehicle, but couldn't. I couldn't find a spark plug wire on my wife's Civic. There are no spark plug wires on my Tundra. It has individual coils for each cylinder.

Cantolina,

I won't drill anything, but tell me what you think of my timing woes.

I also installed a new VOES since I snapped off the nipple on the original one when yanking the carb off. The dealer said it's set at the factory, but adjustable. I just put it on. No problems starting or anything.

Why won't by Craftsman timing light work?

Stock ignition systems can be a pain with standard timing lights...

Mine works, but I have heard some stories....Try it on your lawn tractor :laugh

Don't worry about static timing...its unneccesary unless you've done deep engine work....

I don't think I dropped it. I tried to try it on another vehicle, but couldn't. I couldn't find a spark plug wire on my wife's Civic. There are no spark plug wires on my Tundra. It has individual coils for each cylinder.

I fried a timing light with my bike because it got splattered with oil....Since then, I learned to put a big baggie on it, to keep it dry.....works just great....

I say stay outta the top of the carb.....For many folks, even shimming is completely unneccesary...All depends on your riding style, really, but I don't suggest drilling the vac-port to anyone....

Dynojet not only has you drill the vacuum port, but they supply a lighter slide spring too. I don't recommend doing both of these things since it really makes the slide move up too fast. That's ok on a drag bike because it's launched at high revs, but this can cause surging on a street bike when accelerating from low revs.

As for just drilling the vacuum hole but using the stock slide spring, I can't understand why you don't like that idea. Using a #29 drill on the hole will yield better throttle response without any surging.

As far as shimming the needle .030" ... It only effects part throttle acceleration. And that's where the stock bike runs too lean. No effect at WOT or off idle tip-in. I can't understand what you think is wrong with that.

I recommend a slightly smaller main jet because these bikes run too rich at WOT ... that has been documented on numerous dyno pulls on bone stock bikes by the AFR readings.

Like I said in that CV tuning guide I wrote: These late model bikes are too lean at idle, off idle tip-in (carb farts) and part throttle acceleration, but they are too rich at WOT. Cruise AFR is the only thing that right on .... These little mods pretty much fix all this as best that can be expected.

Better yet .... shit-can that CV carb and use a Mikuni. There pretty much dead-on right out of the box. Just a better design with an additional circuit than the CV.

Ron,

Dynojet not only has you drill the vacuum port, but they supply a lighter slide spring too. I don't recommend doing both of these things since it really makes the slide move up too fast. That's ok on a drag bike because it's launched at high revs, but this can cause surging on a street bike when accelerating from low revs.

Absolutely....

As for just drilling the vacuum hole but using the stock slide spring, I can't understand why you don't like that idea. Using a #29 drill on the hole will yield better throttle response without any surging.

Too permanent...usually unecessary and can be problematic, IMHO

As far as shimming the needle .030" ... It only effects part throttle acceleration. And that's where the stock bike runs too lean. No effect at WOT or off idle tip-in. I can't understand what you think is wrong with that.

Not wrong at all, just not always necessary, that's all

I recommend a slightly smaller main jet because these bikes run too rich at WOT ... that has been documented on numerous dyno pulls on bone stock bikes by the AFR readings.

COMPLETELY agreed...stay with the stock main, at least....

Like I said in that CV tuning guide I wrote: These late model bikes are too lean at idle, off idle tip-in (carb farts) and part throttle acceleration, but they are too rich at WOT. Cruise AFR is the only thing that right on .... These little mods pretty much fix all this as best that can be expected.

Better yet .... shit-can that CV carb and use a Mikuni. There pretty much dead-on right out of the box. Just a better design with an additional circuit than the CV.

Too much adjustability for the average joe.....just like the dyno-jet kit... :)

Wait a minute now. Cantolina, did you just say you fried a timing light by gettin oil on it? Because I sure got oil on mine. Oily mist was blowing out of the timing plug hole. Maybe I fried my timing light. I'll have to get the timing hole plug from the stealer.

How does getting oil on the timing light ruin it? Does getting oil on the lens do it?
Thanks,

Lou

Wait a minute now. Cantolina, did you just say you fried a timing light by gettin oil on it? Because I sure got oil on mine. Oily mist was blowing out of the timing plug hole. Maybe I fried my timing light. I'll have to get the timing hole plug from the stealer.

How does getting oil on the timing light ruin it? Does getting oil on the lens do it?
Thanks,

Lou

I have NO FREAKING IDEA... :laugh.....but it happened...had to buy a new light.... :o

I told you that story for that reason exactly.... :D

Don't bother with the plug....it'll be a damn sight harder to read the timing with that than just by putting a 1 gal baggie on your light.....trust me on this one.... :shhhh

Guess I'll buy a new light. I bet Saran Wrap would work to keep it clean. Forunately, I just got a new Sears charge. It has nothing on it. Sears sells Harley boots too.

Chuck ......

I am going to get a cigar, make a drink and go in the corner and pout!

:p

Guess I'll buy a new light. I bet Saran Wrap would work to keep it clean. Forunately, I just got a new Sears charge. It has nothing on it. Sears sells Harley boots too.

Use a 1 gallon ziplock bag...it fits right in there....

One gallon zip lock bag it is. Gotta get that timing right.

Chuck ......

I am going to get a cigar, make a drink and go in the corner and pout!

:p

No need... :)

You know what you're doing, you know WHY you're doing it, and for someone with reasonably advanced knowledge about the systems involved, I see no reason to NOT do the things you do.....I figure if someone was gonna, they'd tell US about it...not ask.....:shhhh

Baby steps, man...baby steps.... :roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack

Just not for the likes of YOU......:tour:tour:tour:tour

Cantolina,

I DID fry my timing light by getting oil on it. I wrapped my new one in Saran. No gallon zip lock bags in the cupboard.

I could not get the timing mark to appear in the hole no matter how I turned the module. The best I could get was seeing the two little circles which means 20 degrees BTDC. Finally, I got tired of getting a face full of hot oil. I'm going to get that viewing plug anyway even though you said I wouldn't be able to see through it.

It starts and runs fine. I just want to get the timing exact before I play with the jets. I'll think I'll go back to the 45 main jet for starters.