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IrishThug
19th February 2005, 22:44
Any one run a S&S super E carb on a 1200xl? how is it? Do you feel a diffrence? Is it worth the cash? :feedback

rottenralph
19th February 2005, 23:07
I have one. I like it, and it is better on top end then stock dyno jetted carb. There will be a lot of nay sayers here but I have one and I noticed a big dif. when I finally made the change. I have cams n-8's, major head mods and everything else you can imagine on my engine.

barry1967
19th February 2005, 23:37
From my experience, they work well. They are not as good on the bottom end like a CV but they are better on top. Just like every other mod you can do. Get a little here, give up a little there.

IrishThug
10th March 2005, 00:49
Got my S&S super E on and I love it! :clap

HD1200R
10th March 2005, 05:16
I don't know what to say about the S&S yet. It feels great but the cold weather is making me take the bike out for very short rides. I grew up in FL and not used to this cold weather.

74FeHeadXLH
10th March 2005, 06:14
that's what I run on mine, can't complain, and definately at higher R's... hold-on

gwcrim
10th March 2005, 15:12
If you want a carb based on a 40 year old design, they're OK. You might see a few extra HP on top. Maybe 2-3. But for throttle response and general around town ridablility, the stock CV carb is about as good as carbs get.

You need to answer this question before you buy:

Is 2-3 top end HP worth $300? Or would you be better off spending that $300 on something like head work that will produce very noticeable gains across the entire RPM range?

$15 worth of jets will make your stock CV purr like a kitten.

IrishThug
11th March 2005, 00:23
I don't know what to say about the S&S yet. It feels great but the cold weather is making me take the bike out for very short rides. I grew up in FL and not used to this cold weather.

Just get a ski mask and some gloves. :lolsign :sporty:

HrdlyDangrs
11th March 2005, 00:33
S&S is the way to go!

Years of development on the Race Track and Street have gone into the S&S Carb with the Harley motors. The 'E' is one of the latest variants of the carb. The 'E' is perfect for your motor given your 1200cc motor.

I run one on my 74 XLCH. I have experienced 'NO' problems at any speed/RPM.

Pick yourself up a K&N air filter to go with your new S&S. They make one that fits perfectly into the Teardrop S&S Airfilter Assy.

Go onto S&S website and you can download their Tuning Guide.

rottenralph
11th March 2005, 00:41
Crim. Every time this topic comes up you mention how wonderful the c.v. is. My bike goes like hell with the flick of the wrist. I never had that kind of throttle response from my c.v. with about ten dif. jet combos and several needle changes. I know from my own experience that my S&S gives me more all around. Either I am just the worlds greatest tuner(yah right) or the S&S works better for me. It was no comparison at low end or top end or any other end for that matter. I never would have sold my C.V. if it was better in any way. Just did not out perform my S&S in any category. I hope yours works great but I would have to go to Finland to get mine back.

ted
11th March 2005, 01:04
George is right about the S&S being an old design, not quite 40 yrs, but old. It is a pretty good carb though. The stock cv has been a proven good all around carb till you are making serious power. :clap I prefer Mikuni carbs though. :yikes Very tunable and they will out breathe the cv and S&S while atomizing the fuel considerably better, especially at small throttle openings. That contributes to good fuel mileage. I get over 60 mpg with my 84" motor making about 115 hp. :clap
But, as they always say, it's your $$$$.
Ted

HrdlyDangrs
11th March 2005, 01:16
George is right about the S&S being an old design, not quite 40 yrs, but old. It is a pretty good carb though. The stock cv has been a proven good all around carb till you are making serious power. :clap I prefer Mikuni carbs though. :yikes Very tunable and they will out breathe the cv and S&S while atomizing the fuel considerably better, especially at small throttle openings. That contributes to good fuel mileage. I get over 60 mpg with my 84" motor making about 115 hp. :clap
But, as they always say, it's your $$$$.
Ted

Are you comparing your Mikuni to the 'E' series S&S or the Bigger 'B' series S&S??

ted
11th March 2005, 02:10
Are you comparing your Mikuni to the 'E' series S&S or the Bigger 'B' series S&S??
I'm comparing to the Super E series or even G series, because that is the newer design. If I remember right the B series are the real long ones that were around in the 60s or maybe earlier. Now that is an old design. Worked pretty good for drag racing, but pretty iffy for a street bike.
My point was pretty much, if you feel a need to change out the cv for aftermarket, Mikuni is hard to beat. If you run drag pipes Mikuni might be the only carb tunable enough to get running right. :yikes Let's not get into a drag pipe thread though. To each their own. :bump :frownthre :clap :smoke hehehe. In my humble opinion, Mikuni is a very good carb, period. Maybe not the best choice for everyone, but a dam good carb.
Ted :tour

blueglide88
11th March 2005, 02:20
I've had a Super E on my bagger for about 15yrs. It's been pretty good, but I think the cv on my '4 1200C might be better. Then again, I'd have to run them on the same bike to be able to tell for sure. I like them both. The S&S is very easy to tune. As for Mikuni, I had the early 40mm on my bagger for 1/2 yr. It sucked big time. Always ran the float bowl dry at high rpm. WTF? Years later, I read that the bowl was a design mistake. Undersized. I called Mikuni and told them their carb sucked, the guy laughed and said that's what it's supposed to do. All I got out of it was a calendar. Big deal. I'll never use Mikunis again.

HrdlyDangrs
11th March 2005, 02:28
Ted, I run the S&S on my 74 XLCH with open drag pipes...no problems. I've heard that their suppose to be a bitch to get right, but I haven't had a single problem.

I had a Mikuni years ago for a short (very short) time on my 68 XLCH and I just did not like that carb. Now the new style Mikuni may be a different breed, but I'm happy with the S&S.

The S&S has been very good for my application. I ran a 'Lectron' carb for awhile and the Lectron was a great carb also!

Run what makes you happy!

IrishThug
12th March 2005, 00:28
I have noticed that the carb hisses. Is that normal? also today It kept stalling out. I had to keep at the throttle. A tuneing issue perhaps? It's friday :clap :clap :clap Every one have a great safe weekend! :smoke :cheers :drinkbeer

rottenralph
12th March 2005, 00:51
sounds like you might have a vacuum leak. better make sure the hose on the manifold is connected to the voes correctly.

IrishThug
12th March 2005, 15:12
sounds like you might have a vacuum leak. better make sure the hose on the manifold is connected to the voes correctly.

Thanks I will look in to it.

gwcrim
12th March 2005, 15:44
S&S is the way to go!

Why doesn't this surprise me???

rottenralph
12th March 2005, 15:50
I knew you would be back crim. I think you might not like our s&s carbs. Wish I could have had someone tune my c.v. and proove your point. I never was able to get the same response. The c.v. was good but it died up top. The s7s never did that and down low it winds up so fast I would never notice a dif.

benny04hd
13th March 2005, 09:35
you know i had a couple of hi performance bike shops tell me that it really doesnt matter which aftermarket carb you go with whether it be S&S, edelbrock, or mikuni as long as you change out the CV. and i agree, as i could never get the cv to run right after all the changes i did to my engine and i rejetted it and still problems, im running a mikuni now and still tuning it some but the bike runs a hell of allot better!!!!!!!!

gwcrim
13th March 2005, 15:27
you know i had a couple of hi performance bike shops tell me that it really doesnt matter which aftermarket carb you go with whether it be S&S, edelbrock, or mikuni as long as you change out the CV.

If I made money selling carbs, that's exactly what I'd say too. Think about it. Aaron Wilson, from NRHS has put hours and hours and hours on a dyno testing what REALLY works. He'll back me up on this. You guys can spend all the money on carbs that you want. But the seat of the pants dyno is the worst dyno on the planet and all you're doing is justifying an expensive purchase that was really a waste of money. And if you're smart enough to tune a Mikuni or an S&S, you can certainly tune a CV.

But it's your money, spend it as you see fit. I choose to spend mine on PROVEN performance upgrades. $$$ are too hard to come by to waste them.

rottenralph
13th March 2005, 15:42
Mine was a gift from a friend that had two. Cost me a manifold. I love your take on this subject. I actually think it gets your bloodpressure going. Crim, I think it is time for Aaron to put a bike on the dyno with assorted carbs and show us the results. Only then will we become believers. I also want to know how much money was spent on the C.V. to make it actually run on a performance oriented bike.

HrdlyDangrs
13th March 2005, 17:06
I went on their site and from what I can gather all the bikes are heavily modified and there's only one bike shown on their Dyno page that's running an S&S 'D'. Puts out about 123 HP. The only other Bike is doing 127HP with a 'modified' Mikuni. Both bikes have different mods. Doesn't seem too great a differance.

One could probably make up useable HP by further litening of the frame and various bolt on parts and aluminum/plastic/carbon fiber replacements. Plus add a rider that weighs in around 135# and has quick reflexes excellent riding skills and of course 'Lady Luck' and that S&S equipped bike will just as likely win a match race as not.

Besides, how much profit does a company that pitches the Mikuni make per unit sold over an S&S?? Lots of variables for picking one carb over another.

I'll stick with my 'American Made' S&S. Which runs great and gives me no problems at any speed on my 'KICK START', 1974 XLCH IRONHEAD, Open Drag Pipe, Harley-Davidson street bike.

Besides my S&S goes great with my 'American Made' Theme H-D motorcycle with its 'American Made' Andrews Cams, 'AM' Manley Valves, 'AM' Rowe Guides, 'AM' Wiseco Pistons, 'AM' Hasting Rings, 'AM' Progressive Spring Shocks and its various other 'AM' parts like all Timken Bearings, Motor Factory, Russel, Champion, Goodrich, Accel, Pingel, Goodyear, and a shitload of early NOS Factory 'American Made' parts.

Oh and I will be adding some mods to my 'AM' H-D S&S like a 'AM' Yost Power Tube and 'AM' ThunderJet (in RED), not that I have to, just cause I want to, plus a 'AM' Joe Hunt Magneto this Summer.

PS...If I'm not mistaken, the MoCo went to CV carbs because of strict pollution requirments in Cal and that the CV carb by design like the British S.U. compensate for altitude which required less mods for the MoCo. Thats a compromise to me.

TO EACH HIS OWN!!

gwcrim
13th March 2005, 17:38
I also want to know how much money was spent on the C.V. to make it actually run on a performance oriented bike.

2-3 slow jets, 2-3 mains, and another needle at most. Maybe a Dynojet or Yost kit. Well less than $100.

I doubt that Irish Thug has a very modified bike. In that case, $15 for two jets will get the job done. And the $300 he saved on the carb can be put toward a room in Daytona for Bike Week, or maybe a Thunderheader, eh Ralph?

Keep in mind that I've been tinkering on bikes and cars for about 30 years. I've made most of the mistakes there are to be made. I've seen and done the whole "bigger is better" and "loud pipes rule" macho thing. But in the real world, at the race track, or on the dyno, all the subjectivity is gone. What works rules and the BS gets left in the dust.

I know you guys like to get me going on this shit. But there's someone asking about an expensive piece of bling for his bike. Shall we blow smoke up his butt or let him have FACTS and make an informed decision?

rottenralph
13th March 2005, 17:51
I prefer to use B.S. for the burnout pit. Tire spins easier that way. I know what you are saying and it is true. The c.v. is fine for the bike if tuned properly. I have learned in the past that most purchases are made in the mind. He is gonna get one because he likes the look or the macho factor or whatever. I have P.M fwd controls because they were supposed to be the best. $1150 dollars later they are back in a box again awaiting a date with ebay(having parting troubles). I bought the dyno jet kit back when my bike was new and was amazed by the results. Most people would be perfectly happy with the incredible dif. in throttle response that it gives. I changed mine when I noticed flat response over 90 mph. I lived in Germany and we rode to fast for that. I never felt my current carb limiting my speed, now it is my brain. Point taken crim but this is a fun subject with you. I must commend you, you always take the same path. C.V. is good enough.

HrdlyDangrs
13th March 2005, 18:10
crim....Thunderheader?? Whats wrong with the stock Harley pipes...all you have to do modify their baffles, right?? How about some of the other 100+ different pipes out there?? Oh, guess now you going to say their no good either.......when will you stop this insanity!! :smoke

....My 'internal' Dyno located inside my middle right ear says my S&S carb & open drag pipes makes my H-D faster then yours and I can prove it cause I've been wrenching cars and bikes for 42 years...so there!! :p

rottenralph
13th March 2005, 19:00
Hardly, The theader comment was a dig on me. He knows my feelings about this pipe. It was just a good well aimed joke. HIs feelings about the c.v. rival mine about the theader, thats all it was. I know crim feels strongly about the carb and it is quite entertaining getting him going. Gotta love the passion.

HrdlyDangrs
13th March 2005, 19:32
Yeah, I figured as much....just kidding with crim. I'm stuck in the house and I don't have anything better to do today except post long replys... :smoke

CRIM.....S&S RULES!!! :p

gwcrim
14th March 2005, 01:30
Just like my wife says.... I'm too dammed easy.

HD1200R
15th March 2005, 07:39
I purchased my S&S carb mainly because my goal was to be well over 100 h.p. after nitrous. If you are not going to push the magic 3 digit number than don't bother with getting an S&S or Mikuni. I think I finally have my carb dialed in and ready for dyno tuning. With how she sits now, I would not be able to tell the difference between the Keihn and S&S.

I did do more to the kaihn than just jetting. Changed the needle, modified and polished the slide, polished the bore, polished and matched the intake to the carb and heads. I think the polishing and matching helped the most with the bike since there was nothing for the air and fuel to get caught up on.

I'm going to try it with the S&S and see how much of a difference it might make.

rfcooch
25th November 2008, 19:39
I have a 2004 XL 1200 C with screaming eagle pipes (sometimes with baffles sometimes not) My cv carb is officially shot (see my post my 04 sporty is having a problem...)and I have put too much money into it (being performance tuned etc.) to make me sink 1 more dime into it. That being said, mikuni hsr42-11 or S&E super E? My wallet says mikuni, my head is still out on this one!!! Is there enough difference on the super E to justify the double price tag or am I going to see such a difference from my stock CV that the Mikuni is all I need?

jharback
25th November 2008, 19:44
I've been running my super e with wet dreamz pipes for about two years now. I love it. It's by far the easiest carb to get tuned. I don't know why others say that you'd have trouble tuning it with drag pipes. It's one of the easiest carb's out there to tune. I have now problems at low or high rpms. No farts, no sputters, no coughing. It just runs.

jharback
25th November 2008, 19:45
I have a 2004 XL 1200 C with screaming eagle pipes (sometimes with baffles sometimes not) My cv carb is officially shot (see my post my 04 sporty is having a problem...)and I have put too much money into it (being performance tuned etc.) to make me sink 1 more dime into it. That being said, mikuni hsr42-11 or S&E super E? My wallet says mikuni, my head is still out on this one!!! Is there enough difference on the super E to justify the double price tag or am I going to see such a difference from my stock CV that the Mikuni is all I need?

I think you'll find that the S&S isn't twice the price once you consider everything you need.

rfcooch
25th November 2008, 20:49
I already have the free flow air cleaner, it takes the stock cables and stock manifold, what else do I need?

jharback
25th November 2008, 22:41
I already have the free flow air cleaner, it takes the stock cables and stock manifold, what else do I need?

My understanding is that if your air cleaner fits your cv carb that it won't fit the mikuni. In addition, your losing a lot of your performance by not upgrading to a high performance intake manifold. Both of these items come with the S&S Carb Kits. Last I checked the S&S Carb Kits cost $430 plus cables (?) for a total of about $500. The mikuni kits with high flo air filter and performance manifold is about $430.

xlint89
29th December 2008, 06:22
Can someone please squash this debate with a side by side comparison of the Mikuni vs Super E?


PLEASE?????

biknut
30th December 2008, 04:56
I love my Super E, but as it comes in the box it does have some limitations from a dated design. If your bike is a near stock or stage one 883, Iron Head, or solid mount 1200, you'll probably be very happy with it as it is. If your motor is modified, but all you want to do is drag race then you're still good to go. But if you've modified your motor enough to substantially improve the air flow and you demand great throttle response all through the rev range, this is when the shite hits the fan.

Basically under these circumstances a Super E doesn't have the range to meet jetting requirements accurately at all engine speeds. This is a well known problem that racers are aware of. The way it ends up is, if you get the bottom end jetted right, the top end goes lean. If you jet for top end, the mid range goes rich. You can't have both ways. You'll be able to understand why when I explain the fix.

A Super E is a very simple design. Basically what you get is a venturi with a butterfly, 2 jets controlled by fixed air bleed circuits, and a good adjustable accelerator pump, but we're not concerned with the accelerator pump. What needs to happen to make it work better is the fueling control needs to be extended over a wider rpm range, but at the same time we need to be able to make more minute changes. This is accomplished by making two important modifications. One change is to make the main jet air bleed adjustable instead of just being a fixed orifice. The second is to install a third fuel circuit which is accomplished by installing a ThunderJet. After doing this we can control fueling better in the different ranges.

This is how it works out. At low engine speeds most of the fuel is supplied by the low speed circuit. By circuit, I'm referring to the low speed jet and the low speed air bleed orifice. Fuel always flows out the the low speed circuit but as engine speed picks up extra fuel starts being added by the main jet circuit.

Before we go any further lets try to understand what the air bleed does. The carb now has 3 fuel circuits. Think of a fuel circuit as a straw, with a jet at one end, and a venturi sucking on the straw at the other end. In the middle of the straw is a hole (air bleed orifice). The bigger the hole the harder the suck has to be to get fuel up the straw, just like what happens if you have a hole in your soda straw. The low speed circuit still has the original fixed air bleed orifice, but now our main jet circuit air bleed has been modified to be adjustable, as are the sizes of our jets. We're going to start out with a larger than original air bleed orifice in the main jet circuit (now mid range circuit), so that's going to mean the low speed circuit will have to wait longer to start getting help from the main. To compensate for this we're going to increase the size of the low speed jet. Because we now have the ability to adjust the size of the main jet air bleed orifice, now we can control the relationship between the low speed jet and the main jet, and how much overlap they have. We couldn't do that before. Now that we have control of the low and mid range all we need to do is jet for high speed. High speed is controlled by the ThunderJet circuit, and of course supplemented by the low and mid circuits too. The ThunderJet has it's own jet and fixed air bleed orifice. Once it's jetted right you end up with a very responsive throttle and good power all through the rev range.

Of course I've made it sound so easy to jet properly but it takes a lot of work to get it right. I still think it's easier than most other carbs.

So how do you get a Super E set up like this you ask? The easiest way is just buy it complete from Zippers. Zippers sells Super E's with ThunderJet's already installed with adjustable air bleeds. You can also send your old carb to Zippers or other performance shops to have a ThunderJet installed on your carb. A third way is to install it yourself on your carb. ThunderJet's are available separately from Zippers and a lot of other suppliers. I bought mine from a Indy who ordered it through Drag Specialty's for about $50.

Here's a link to a thread I created about how to install a ThunderJet on your Super E.

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=206883

Here's Zippers online installation and tuning instructions

http://www.zippersperformance.com/techtalk/pdf/T-Jet%20Install%20Jetting.pdf

xlint89
30th December 2008, 07:11
Thanks for the break down Nut.

I do have a Thunderjet installed as well as the Yost Power Tube. However, when my bike was being dyno tuned, the tuner (who also installed my TJ a year earlier) said that it wasn't working for some reason, and blocked it off.

The reason I want a comparison is that everyone is ranting how responsive the Mikuni is for the street, and how S&S are good for WOT.

I'd like to see a side by side comparison since I now am building a big bore and want a strong low end. The most responsive carb should help achieve this goal. But I do not want to change my A/C, intake manifold, carb and maybe cables to gain a touch in the bottom end if the S&S is doing well enough.

biknut
30th December 2008, 07:20
I've never seen more than a couple of hp on the top end between a S&S E and Mik42 with the edge going to the Mik. I don't believe throttle response could me much different if both carbs are set up right, but I never ridden with a MIK. I couldn't tell much difference between my bike and my friends FI XB12. There's no question a S&S has better response than CV. CVs are OK but have a slight lag. I think a lot of people just don't ever Get their S&S set up right.