I am trying to find some info on 4 valve Buell heads made by a company called Max "T" Engines. I can't seem to get there web site. Does anyone have any info here that they would share (preformance wise) about these or any other 4 valve head that would fit on a XL/Buell?.

Can't say that I've heard of such a company, but I'll keep my ears open for you. I'd love to see the bottom end on that thing; I wonder if uses quad or twin cams?

Can NRHS supply/get 4 valve type heads???... just wondering...

I've heard of them and even talked to the owner, but it was several years ago. I think I even talked to Aaron about them. This was back when we were running speed trials. To the best of my recollection, the decision was that 4 valve heads weren't the greatest for street use.

But then my memory isn't what it used

to be.

LOL

Easiest way to find out is to PM or call Aaron! He or Dan will be able to answer your question PDQ.

Very VERY expensive and the performance does not justify the cost involved.

I have found some info on the net about guys using the 4 valve heads for evo big twins,... the first thing that I thought was... to me anyway was... this would be like putting 4valve heads on a Belarous tractor:doh . These engines do not spin to 7000+ rpm do they???, not to mention I would think most big twins are the weight of two (or more ) Buells, are they not?. I would think an XL version 4 valve head engine could really make some big hp numbers and preform much better compared to any low reving big twin?.

Hi Dan... I realize it won't be cheap but can you guys get a set of these heads?, I would think with one of your 88" kits and the right cams/components one these engines could really be a trick powerhouse. I think this would be a good option to a big stroker.

You would be a lot better off getting a set of our stage 4 STD heads for around $1900. The 4 valves heads will cost at least $3500.

You would be a lot better off getting a set of our stage 4 STD heads for around $1900. The 4 valves heads will cost at least $3500.
Hey man, at least they are cool because they have 4 valves! ;) haha

Fuelling made four valve heads back in the 90's and you see how much talk there is about them. Maybe it is just not worth it on our engines. 3500 bucks ought to buy a really nice setup.

I worked on one bike with the Fueling 4-valve heads (an FXR, back in 1994.) The intake manifold was a huge PITA to install without tearing the o-rings that sealed it, and the valve adjustment was a PITA too. We didn't have a dyno back then, but the bike ran pretty good (all the FXRs seemed to run pretty good and felt faster than they really were.) I don't think they were installed for more power but for being cool and the only ones in the neighborhood.

There are far better ways (http://nrhsperformance.com/headworkbuell.shtml) to make HP these days.

--Chris

You would be a lot better off getting a set of our stage 4 STD heads for around $1900. The 4 valves heads will cost at least $3500.

are the std heads a bolt on affair?

OK... so I phoned ARAO and they make 4 valve evo 4" and twin cam 3.7/8" heads, $4400 complete. I can't seem the find any info on specific XL ones. I think I really want to go the 4valve route.

SO... boring out the xl cases to use a 3.7/8" bore... is there any reason (if money was not an issue) I could not use/mod the twin cam ones to work???... ARAO said they could remachine the pushrod tube angles. It might be possible to get them to do other mods when they are making them.

NRHS, really looking for your input here.

http://www.araoengineering.com/barley.htm

So, other than the cool factor what is the purpose of your quest. $4400 for heads that require extensive case mods seems like a foolish way to spend your money. Why not just buy a racing engine for your bike and call it good. That is a lot of money for what is most likely not going to get you anything on the strip. Why this quest. Are you rich and just want to do something completely different??

Here is an article about 4 valve head install and they got a whopping 10 h.p. out of them. Better do some research. 10 h.p. for 4400 is not a good use of engine building money.

http://www.bikerrogue.com/Articles/Tech_Articles/4-valve_power.htm

Seems like a classic "horse to water" type case.

You've been given advice from the best. Good luck with your decision.


Bart

If you really want something different in the exotic heads department get one of these.

http://www.coatesengine.com/motorcycle.html

I am really not worryed about the extra coin as long as it reasonable to me for a custom part... just work a bit of OT and be done with it. What the frick is money good for anyway if a guy has to worry about nickles and dimes all the time. There are people out there that spend $4400+ on smokes a year lol. If all everyone ever did was complain about the cost of this or that we would not have frick all for diffrent products on the market that we have today. As you said and see I have been wanting to some thing diffrent, if I could find a set of max T heads I guess I could save some bucks but I can't. What good is money for but for spending it???... sticking it up my ass won't be any better lol.

As I said before imo putting 4 valve heads on low reving evo is a waist of time unless maybe with nitro/race fuel. If one guy/dummy is getting a 10 hp gain on a 4500/5000 rpm evo, that might be what he made but that does not mean thats all there is to be had lol. I would really rather see more hard numbers/comparisions before I would just believe one guys story.

If you read/check the info on ARAO's site you will see the air flow #'s,... whats the air flow #'s on the std's?

The std heads I am sure are good but I really don't think a 2 valve head could flow as much as a 4 valve head with some decent rpm.

IMO, I feel a bolt on 4 valve head on a buell is the only place to step up to and beyond from the current 2 valve offerings for the xl engines.

If you really want something different in the exotic heads department get one of these.

http://www.coatesengine.com/motorcycle.html


NICE... I like, do they have a kit for an XL lol. I wish they had more V twin info on that site.

I am really not worryed about the extra coin as long as it reasonable to me for a custom part... just work a bit of OT and be done with it. What the frick is money good for anyway if a guy has to worry about nickles and dimes all the time. There are people out there that spend $4400+ on smokes a year lol. If all everyone ever did was complain about the cost of this or that we would not have frick all for diffrent products on the market that we have today. As you said and see I have been wanting to some thing diffrent, if I could find a set of max T heads I guess I could save some bucks but I can't. What good is money for but for spending it???... sticking it up my ass won't be any better lol.

As I said before imo putting 4 valve heads on low reving evo is a waist of time unless maybe with nitro/race fuel. If one guy/dummy is getting a 10 hp gain on a 4500/5000 rpm evo, that might be what he made but that does not mean thats all there is to be had lol. I would really rather see more hard numbers/comparisions before I would just believe one guys story.

If you read/check the info on ARAO's site you will see the air flow #'s,... whats the air flow #'s on the std's?

The std heads I am sure are good but I really don't think a 2 valve head could flow as much as a 4 valve head with some decent rpm.

IMO, I feel a bolt on 4 valve head on a buell is the only place to step up to and beyond from the current 2 valve offerings for the xl engines.
I'll try to grab it tomorrow and post some numbers, unless the NRHS guys beat me to it.

It does not make any sence that a 4 valve head can only make 10hp more... heres a guy that made just a little bit more...

97ci, 16.1 comp...160hp
http://www.et-performance.com/iron_mag.html


Also theres more issues with high compression, 12.1+ and detonation with the 2 valve design on pump gas. Most all 4 valve bikes are running a 12.1+ comp on pump gas with a lot less ping issues. I think I would have less problems running a 4 valve 12.1+ compression head on pump gas on my xl engine.

The biggest limiting factor on H-D V-twins is they can not be spun fast enough to use huge port flow. They simply were not designed for this back in the 50's. This is why 600cc (36 inch) Jap bikes make 110+ hp at the tire and go 160 mph right off the showroom floor. Super-short strokes and incredibly lightweight valvetrain keep it together at 15,000 rpm - and nearly useless torque below 5,000 rpm. The V-Rod uses modern technology to close that gap between high-rev, 4 cylinder machines and the torky V-twin.

Since you are paying, I think totally cool. Keep us posted, love to see pics of those heads and rocker boxes.
DC

quote "Its your money to spend and I hope you get what you want".

rottenralph, I did not mean to come across as an a-hole to you (although my wife keeps on inforcing that fact) with my comments. I just see it happen so many times with people complaining/making an issue of cost... cost ...COST of everything, I am not saying it's not a valid one but thinking that way... fricken hell then... everything in my life has been a waste of money that I will NEVER be able to get back, why did I even buy 2 new pos Buells so I could just loose my money/shirt on they if I wanted to sell, my cars/mustangs/351C engines... same thing, never mind the rest of my lost cause hobbys. I just don't want to think about if its worth it or not... my advise... if you want it... don't think... work more and you will have it if you really want it... screw the rest... is it worth it???...when I am dead the I will never have to worry about it again.


If that dam 97" evo can make 160hp at 6000rpm with 4valve heads then damit, why can't an XL. The big $4400 question is still, is there any reason the 3.7/8 arao heads can't be made to work on an xl.

Maybe you can get them to do the fitment for free as an experiment of sorts. You pay for the heads, they do the r&d using your bike and then you get to ride the beast.

Thats a good idea... but now I am wondering if 4valve evo heads would be easyer to modify to use on an xl?.

Man I hate this e-bay thing, found at set of 4v heads to test/try out. The first time I ever tryed this e bay thing I get screwed over/snyped? by a a hole that bids 10 bucks more 4 seconds before the auction ends and when I tryed to put another bid in it wouldint work. They claim it's "part of the experience of ebay" lol. Something stinks in the way they do business. I guess I have to learn to be a crook to bid in that poop hole.:censor

I was willing to go to $1500 and I end up loosing the auction for 10 bucks??? lol???:doh

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150055938557&rd=1&rd=1

If you were willing to go to $1500, you should have put that in as your max bid and let eBay do the rest. You would own the heads right now.

But, I think you are the winner here. Those are the heads I hate so much :) What a convoluted, complicated way to make horsepower. There are so many more good ways to do it now, without limiting yourself to the components that work with these heads. Plus, these are used BT heads I think, so you'd have to make them work anyway. I understand enjoying the challenge of making these work, but it's sure a lot of work for little benefit.

I also wonder why they were taken off the bike...

--Chris

I those heads are for a BT I doubt the intake plenum would fit installed on a Sportster.

Yup, my mistake lol, I just thought it would be silly to start with puting a 1500 bid in when the next highest was 450... oh well... live and learn, there will be others. Another silly thing about all this is I found another set before that sold for $275. lol I'm willing to bet the heads came off the BT because they did not work well lol. Modding things to fit never scared me, done it many times with many things. Some of us just want to go left when everyones going right.;)

www.ezsniper.com need I say more.

If you really want something different in the exotic heads department get one of these.

http://www.coatesengine.com/motorcycle.html

Dayum that video is crazy. Sounds like Pete Hill's AHDRA flat head. Thanks for the link. The next time I'm near Wall, New Jersey I gonna check them out.

JB

How about these? Only $4400.

http://www.araoengineering.com/barley.htm

It does not make any sence that a 4 valve head can only make 10hp more... heres a guy that made just a little bit more...

97ci, 16.1 comp...160hp
http://www.et-performance.com/iron_mag.html


Also theres more issues with high compression, 12.1+ and detonation with the 2 valve design on pump gas. Most all 4 valve bikes are running a 12.1+ comp on pump gas with a lot less ping issues. I think I would have less problems running a 4 valve 12.1+ compression head on pump gas on my xl engine.

Bro - listen to what you're saying. 97 cid? 16.1:1 compression!?!?

That is a FULL-OUT RACE ENGINE. I don't think you realize the amount of work and customization it takes to get a stock HD mill to run that kind of compression. Hell, you may as well take the spark plugs out and run diesel in the damned thing.

And I think others will back me up on this, but there's a lot more to pinging than just compression - mainly thing like ignition timing.

There's no doubt this would be a cool machine, but there are much more economical, and equally as trick ways to make this kind of power.

Go buy a trubo and be done.

I remember reading a article on these (www.chriscross-time-of-flight.com) in American Iron. Seems like a assbackward direction for the valves to be facing to me.

The BMW R1200S runs 12.5-1 compression and redlines at 8,800 rpm. Once again, making use of the tremendous extra flow requires rpms the Sportsters are not suited to run, due to the long stroke. And below 3,000 rpm, the R1200S runs smooth, but with little useful torque. Hp also generates heat and the BMW design controls that with lots of oil flow and a big oil cooler, backed up with knock sensors to pull timing back.

actually the sportster is an ideal platform to incorporate the 4valve
head. I personally have run, worked on, and improved, the components
of the 4valves for about a dozen years, I was a dealer in the early 90's
for Feuling and Rivera. If one of you fellows would like to get serious about
adding the 4valves to your 4cam motor I would enjoy talking to you.
One of the limiting factors with the sportster design motor is cubic inches.
The 4valve allows more h.p. with no loss in torque if designed that way.
All the stories of no torque come from setting the motor up for a dyno, and not the street, were all the compontents are geared for high r.p.m. I have built
many evo 100 inch motors designed for midrange, if the motor is set up the
way we have done it in the past, a 4valve motor has a wider r.p.m. range,
then the 2 valve because of the extrem overlap that the 4valve doesn't need,
for top end. 12.1 compresson is ok because of the pentroof combustion
chamber, and retarding the timing helps to allow a little more room in the short stroke sporster to compress the mixture, before ignition.

I have been away from all this bike stuff for a while but now see maybe the 4valve might be making a come back... Neat!

http://www.rpmhemi.com/

http://www.rpmhemi.com/resources/kit1.jpg

http://www.cyrilhuzeblog.com/2007/07/04/4-valve-hemi-for-your-v-twin-engine/

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/02/26/4-valve-hemi-heads-for-harley-big-twin-engines/

Now that my divorce is done I have to get back on finding a set of quantum cores to try and see if I can mod/fit them in the X1 frame and go from there.

Good luck on your quest... Looks like Jurneyman should be a good contact, especially since he offered. Same person discussing at the Cryrillhuzeblog site?

Have you made any progress with the X1?

Hi, yup I exchanged a few emails with Jurneyman a while back just before my world went to shitlol. He help me better understand cam diffrences between 4V and 2V heads (my thinking was wrong), he help a great deal. My biggest worry/concern got to be at that time was being able to get the head welded so the engine could hang off the front head for the X1 buell engine mount. Thats why I got to start with a set of cores first to sort engine mounting out.

Yes my 01 X1 is done and now this summer I want to start on modding/hotroding my 00 X1 in which I bought a good HOTROD engine for it and now just got to figure out how to get it in the bike lol:doh...

http://www2.ahdra.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads-5-5-1/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=45378&an=0&page=1#Post45378

You are going to have to do a lot of frame fabrication to fit that tall of a motor into a Buell chassis. good luck!

Thanks Dan, I will need it I am sure lol. I will start a new thread and post some pics when I start cutting.

Theres a company in Japan, HOT-DOCK, that Specifically makes 88 inch 4-valve Buell engines. The "4-valve radial" cylinder heads are absolute jewelry - they have the cooling fins around the push rod tubes like XR's.
I have no idea of pricing or performance, but this has got to be the sexiest buell engine ever!

Wow, thanks for that info, very trick looking, So I wonder if these can be bought with the head mount for the tube frame buell?, man it sure would be nice to see some HP#'s.

http://www.hot-dock.co.jp/title1.htm

These guys got some very cool bikes/stuff

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5742/b1ga0.jpg

Glad to help. Unfortunately you might need a translator to talk to them!
Besides the fact that Arao doesn't have a good reputation and the other designs are meant for big-twins, this seem like a more unique and well thought out option.
Please make sure you share with us any info you may get! good luck!

I started to look for a set of quantum 4v cores and did a net search and found some pricing on kits and parts from Rogues cycle.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:4kjArvwdzk0J:www.100scooter.com/ATSEAThisisanemailfromanEheUS.htm+Quantum+Feuling+ 4+Valve+Heads&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=50&gl=ca

ROGUE'S DISCOUNT PARTS-- Complete New Feuling ? Quantum 4 Valve Head Kits to Fit Evolution V-Twin Engines (all parts necessary to bolt on, including easy to follow instructions) Retail $2399.00 Dealer $1799.00 ROGUE $1500.00

1 Head Kit As Above With Polished Fins And Painted Wrinkle Black, $1600.00

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve Head Front New Retail $295.68 - Dealer $197.12, ROGUE $195.00

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve Head Front New Retail $295.68 - Dealer $197.12 ROGUE $195.00

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve heads front, minor repair needed on some(guide,seat,threads) Retail Price $295.68, - Dealer $197.12 But has guides & seats already installed.$150.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve heads rear, minor repair needed on some (guide,seat,threads)Retail Price $295.68, - Dealer $197.12 But has guides & seats already installed.$150.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve front rocker boxes assembled less swivel feet, $395.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve rear rocker boxes assembled less swivel feet, $395.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve front rocker boxes Retail $184.20- Dealer $122.80 Rogue $75.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve rear rocker boxes Retail $184.20- Dealer $122.80 Rogue $75.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve front exhaust rocker arms Retail $159.38- Dealer $106.25 Rogue $75.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve front intake rocker arms Retail $159.38- Dealer $106.25 Rogue $75.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve rear intake rocker arms Retail $159.38- Dealer $106.25 Rogue $75.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve rear exhaust rocker arms Retail $159.38- Dealer $106.25 Rogue $75.00ea

Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve rocker box covers Retail $86.52- Dealer $57.68 Rogue $25.00ea

Dual Carb Plenums for Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve Heads Retail $95.07-Dealer $75.00 Rogue $50.00ea

Dual Carb Plenums for Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve Heads Flanges Machined and Bored to 1 7/8 for S&S Carb Retail $120.07 - Dealer $100.07 -Rogue $75.00

Intake Plenum Runners for Feuling-Quantum 4 Valve heads Retail $87.42-Dealer $58.28 Rogue $25.00ea

Feuling-Quantum intake valves Retail $12.15- Dealer $8.10 Rogue$8.10 ea

Feuling-Quantum exhaust valves Retail $11.03- Dealer $7.35 Rogue $7.35ea

Feuling-Quantum rocker shafts Retail $17.03- Dealer $11.35 Rogue $11.35ea

Feuling-Quantum Oversize Intake Valve Guides Retail $5.45- Dealer $3.63 Rogue $3.63ea

Feuling-Quantum Oversize Exhaust Valve Guides Retail $5.45- Dealer Rogue $3.63

Feuling-Quantum Oversize Intake Seats Retail $7.50- Dealer $ 5.00 Rogue $5.00ea

Feuling-Quantum Oversize Exhaust Seats Retail $7.50- Dealer $5.00 Rogue $5.00

Feuling-Quantum Cometic Head Gaskets for Non-O-Ring Heads $15.00ea

Feuling-Quantum Rocker Box Cover Gaskets w/Sealer built in $10.00ea

Feuling-Quantum Inner Valve Springs $ 4.00ea Feuling-Quantum Outer Valve Springs $ 5.00ea

Feuling ? Quantum Head Bolts Retail $28.80 ea Dealer $19.20ea ROGUE $15.00ea

Feuling Anti-Reversionary exhaust available in kit form.Use pieces to build the exhaust system YOUR Bike needs. Prices Vary so contact for your indivual needs.



http://www.bikerrogue.com/Articles/Tech_Articles/4-valve_power.htm

I just found another super trick! fueling 4 valve artical/bike... http://www.people.ex.ac.uk/pbhook/harley.htm

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/04/07/harley-davidson-4-valve-big-twin-sportbike/
http://thekneeslider.com/images/harley4vsportbikecloseup.jpg
I had thoughts of trying to do a modded down draft system of some sort and here they allready done it, very trick... btw guys I have now started my 4 valve project.

I am not sure who is cooler to me, Nikola Tesla or Jim Fueling... I have had this artical for many years...

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5871/feulingheadsqm6.jpg

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/9739/feulingheads001cg8.jpg

I found some interesting vid clips of a big cube 140"+ XL type, 4 valve head, 4 cam engine using nitrous in some sanddrags in BC, looks like a good way to scare away the bears lol, some of you might get a kick out of it, looks like this 4 valve engine is making lots of power.:D

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/142-in-4-valve-head-4-cam_107771.htm

one more, looks like these clips are xl vs xl.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/overkillracing-sanddrags_108671.htm

man thats a mean machine! the case doesnt look like a sportster, but the push rod tubes are more like sportster then big twins.
that must be a ride.

oh and are u using those 4 valves on that 114".

Hi, nope my 114" engine is for a diffrent project. This 4 valve build will be a 90" engine nrhs cast iron big bore kit with flat tops, carrillo rods s&s 555 cams, jims hydrosolid lifters, zippers crank scraper, chrome moly adj push rods with the zippers tube/base kit (I am going to look into jims titainium push rods though). I would like to run a modified dual buell fuell injection with the fueling intake but I don't have that sorted out yet, possibly/probably just run dual carbs, crane hi-4 ign to start with and then a nitrous kit to top it off. I think thats it besides the fueling heads.

Man thats gonna be interesting. lookin forward to seeing some pics, i havent seen a four valve build. dont the titanium rods flex a lot? might be good to stick with the crome moly. why the S&S 555s? and i was gonna say the carillo's might be over board, but i remembered the nitrous, so if u got the extra cash to be safe then its a no brainer. great project. good luck. have u bought the heads yet

I think there might be a few guys interested in this 4 valve XL build lol, theres very limited info on the net about it. I have read some things about the titanium pushrods. I will probably run the engine with the 4140 pushrods I got to start with but I think once everything is setup I with get a set of the 3M ones now. I have read some car guys using them with good results, check this vid clip out...

http://solutions.3m.com/3MContentRetrievalAPI/BlobServlet?assetType=MMM_Image&locale=en_US&blobAttribute=ImageFile&fallback=true&univid=1114293769648&placeId=7BC6E48B1800BAE180A88EBDDE345EFB&version=current

tech info...
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Energy-Advanced/Materials/Industry_Solutions/MMC/Pushrods/

I have learned the 4 valve heads do not like really high lift cams, I have the s&s555's now but looks like the SE 551's will be better to use and maybe even smaller lift/dur cams. There is a bit to learn and understand when it comes to cams diffrences between the 2 valve vs 4 valve heads, I am getting there. Jurneyman in this thread is helping me with this build and he is building the heads now for me with his own updated head mods that he has been doing for years with the 4 valve fueling heads. I am very greatfull to him for his time.:sporty:

BTW, for head pics, I think some of the best detail pics I have ever found on the net so far of the fueling 4 valve castings is from vintageandcustom bikes if your interested.

http://www.vintageandcustom.com/Quantum_Jim_Feuling_heads.htm

interesting id like to see the intake manifold, they must want to keep velocity up. when does it turn into the two tubes(?)well i suppose four. two into each head.
the last time i saw the intake it wasnt a close up. and i think it was more for fuel injection.

very cool stuff

Jmr the 4-valve heads have a fairly large plenum by 2-valve standards. The 4 intake ports are fed and flow directly through adapters that mount the plenum to the heads. The 4-valve technology uses 4 short runners or ports and works best with a large volume area feeding those ports and because the various elements of the intake system are designed such as the cam that has very little overlap in relation to the amount of overlap necessary with the large opening of a 2-valve, velocity is not lost because the
piston it as moves downward allows the A/F mix in the plenum, instead of the exhaust
port that is larger and has less resistance to be pushed through the smaller ports and valves into area vacated by the piston, thus creating good velocity.

Holy crap, over 3000 views?, I think one or two people might be interested in the is build lol. No updates for anyone yet but the plan was to do this project over the winter, how ever here is a show in tell pic of some of the parts for this 4 valve Buell build...


http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/826/im004192xb0.jpg

cast iron 90" axtell cly with flat top pistons, stock spec carrillo rods, se 551 cams, jims hydrosoild lifters, zippers crank scraper, tube kit, 4140 pushrods,

Im wondering about the pistons, being there for a four valve u have to machine vavle pockets in the pistons still, are they goin to be on either side of the exiting pockets. making just one larger pocket. and u just adjust the lose of compression else where. or would it make since to just have a set of blanks machine to ur specs. what did u find out on this? i know uve checked.

When I was looking at buying pistons I asked about ones with no reliefs in them, yes it is possible/no problem but no one had any without them ready to go on there shelfs because everything is catered to 2 valve stuff. The 2 valve reliefs in these flat tops really don't look too deep/big anyway, jurneyman will be cutting the new reliefs in these pistions for me. I guess I could have just ordered a set with out but I did not think was a big deal anyway and should be able to meet the approx comp ratio I wanted.

yah i figured that, i know of a guy, just cant think of him rate now. but ill figure his name soon. but not that it matters. looks good really good. keep us informed.

I see a lot of rpm and compression ratios, but I don't see any flow numbers for the cylinder heads.. Seems to me that would be one of the MOST important aspects of cylinder heads. Not to mention the turbulence in the airflow. The more air you can channel, the more power you can make. Popular Hotrodding had a formula for auto engines, and I'm pretty sure it will hold true for bikes, but essentially, the amount of power you can make is limited by the amount of air your cylinder heads can flow. Just because there are 4 valve heads, doesn't mean that the flow numbers will be much higher, which means that you'll only make a small performance increase for twice as much money. It really is all in the porting. Simply smoothing out and decreasing turbulent surfaces in stock heads can make a huge difference.

I'll try and find that formula tomorrow if no one has it on hand.

Hi LifesHarlequin. one good place to get a bit of info about 4 valve tech/flow is on ARAO's site... the 4valve tech is proven it can make more power, I personaly think using the right/optimum cam for a 4 valve head is one of the key factors in getting the max/all the power out of a 4valve engine. Some 2valve cams may work ok but the cam timing events need to be suited for a superior flowing 4 valve design.


The 4 valve pushrod sb Ford heads were apparenty tested by HotRod magazine and there quote... "with no other changes-even carb jetting and ignition timing were unaltered- the four valve heads outperformed the the ported two valve race heads by 129.1HP and 63.5LB-FT"..."a proven ability to stand head and shoulders above even the best two valve heads"...Steve Magante,HotRod magazine.
http://www.araoengineering.com/Ford/frdsmb.htm

Here is a good artical on why the 4valve can work better...
http://www.araoengineering.com/4vs2.htm

For the heck of it, even though its a ohc engine, to show the 4valve tech... John Mihovetz Pro Street 6.55 1/4mi, 217mph
small 4.6L 4 valve Mercury Cougar, I believe its making over 2000HP and I think you could also drive it to 7eleven to get a slurpee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAnB6LzdYNQ&feature=related

For me the question is... how much more can be developed with the 2 valve design and I have heard, not much. As good as some of the 2valve race heads that are out now, they can not flow what a 4valve head can. Where can we go now with this and other pushrod engines without redesigning the whole engine?... the heads.

Oh, I don't doubt the 4 valves can make more power power, as I'm sure with they can flow more than 2 valves, but the question is not necessarily that there is just a greater volume of air, but that that the air is unhindered and allowed to flow without turbulence through the cylinder head. The difference in a poor and a proper porting job can significantly change the potential of a single set of cylinder heads. I'd just like to see the actual flow numbers on motorcycle cylinder heads. Makes it a good bit easier for me to know what I'm looking at as far as potential power.

I don't disagree that cam shaft is extremely important as it is primarily responsible for timing the valve movements, and thus the rate and timing of air/fuel and exhaust flow. But you can have a good camshaft set for your appropriate powerband, but without maximizing the airflow through your engine, you're still limited.

I've got some ported and polished LT1 cylinder heads on my 350, and those plus 1.6 roller rockers, dual coil springs, 1 5/8 headers, high flow cats and a Corsa 3.5" exhaust took my 275fwhp and turned it into over 300rwhp from my stock a4 tranny without changing anything on my ECM. (Note: no actual dyno numbers. I just know my 4000lbs wet camaro beat a friends dyno tested 300whp hatchback Civic by a car length, which is a great deal lighter, so I just claim 300+rwhp). I also now get higher than advertised fuel economy 16/27 (rated 15/23).

The purpose of an engine is to simply move air as much as possible so that it can use its expansive force to move your rotating assembly. If any component in that line hinders the flow of air, you are limited by that component.

Hey LifesHarlequin, since your a chevy guy, you might get a big kick out of this link, check it out...

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1572&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Wow.. 32valve LT1...WITH A SUPERCHARGER!!! That thing, if tuned right, couldn't make anything less than 700rwhp. I wonder if he ran a cam setup similar to the Northstar engines in Caddies...?

BTW on a completely unrelated note.. I'm typing this reply from my laptop because in attempting to download Bejeweled 2 Deluxe... I got the most annoying virus since MBlaster 32, so behind my laptop is the attempt to restore my normal User Account and fix the problem.. I think he just over wrote iexplorer.exe and changed a bunch of permissions, which I got changed back decently easily... If I have to reformat my C drive, I'm gonna kill the guy that wrote that program.

On a more Zen filled moment, however, I now know why I love vehicles more than computers....

Here is a vid clip you will also like...


http://videos.streetfire.net/video/32-valve-small-block-e_120868.htm


I feel a 4 valve head (possibly COATS also) is still the only place to go to upgrade the 2valve Vtwin (and all other 2valve pushrod engines) without re-designing a new engine. I would like to buy a set of the ARAO ford 4valve heads down the road, I heard ARAO sold a few new complete ford sets on ebay for $4400. I wish I knew about that before lol.

*twitch* hehe.. its a thing of beauty...

I've actually seen a supercharger on top of a supercharger.. two roots style... only made 700 rwhp because there is only so much air you can force down through the cylinder heads. Plus the valvetrain choices were a bit weak IMO.

Just as a follow up to that comment from me on the virus... THERE WILL BE !!!!ING MURDERS!!! I wasted 4 hours of my time (and that is just to get the basics going again) because of some !!!! who felt like making a virus disguised as the most addictive game in the world..

BTW.. thank god for transmission "Save your Ass" Bars from Thunderracing.com...

http://www.thunderracing.com/thunderwheelie.wmv

thunderracing=wow

4 valve heads it is! Wish I had the scratch, I'd pick 'em up for the heck of it....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=017&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=270271499666&rd=1

nice there u go kazoom. great find ross! man ur good!

LOL I allready messaged him this morning and gave him a link to this thread lol. Come on you guys you should bid on them, I already got a set being built, I think journeyman could upgrade/rebuild those heads for one of you!. The biggest thing that makes me VERY happy to see on those heads is that front mount!, looks well done, I think much better than what the MAX T setup had/was in the exhaust bolts. makes me feel 110% good about putting on a simular mount for mine!.:banana

I have said this before,... It's too bad mr Fueling is not around anymore, who knows how many more 3-4 valve pushrod products, retro fit/upgrade kits there might be out there if he was still around. Are all those his patents on that back wall!, I think he would/must of been a cool guy to bs with.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/1708/4007fz6.jpg

so thats what a patent looks like. :)

If high flow for horsepower was all you wanted out of a set of heads, 2-valves
could probably get the job done for you. but because of the overlap that is needed to compensate for the loss of A/F flow, it limits the torque at the lower RPM's where the street rider likes to feel the power, One of the many benefits of using a 4-valve design is its ability widen the torque range when set up properly for its inherent design, using the proper cam and rod to stroke ratio, high RPM horse power can still be realized without affecting low RPM torque. The higher
velocity ports of the 4-valve, which BTW still have more area and valve curtain then the 2-valve can pack more A/F into the cylinder, and the larger volume of the plenum allows a later closing of the intake, making for a very effective, and efficient design.

Well i guess ive joined u jurneyman, kazoom. i got a set of 4-valve heads. hehe

OK!... dont keep me in suspence... what did you get!, where did you get them!, what are they!, where the HELL are the pics!.

did you get the ones from the ebay?

Hey Jmr1283, welcome to the club, any questions at all please PM me, and I will give you my E-Mail, if you don't already have it, I really enjoy working with these heads.

they're are on my bike and producing rate around 130 horsepower. about 75 tq,


its black...
























the engine size is 1125.... :p

LOL jmr... you got me all worked up... well done... the 1125 is a hell of a nice bike. It will be interesting to see how a old school 4v engine will compare to the new high tech 4v engine. :wonderlan


http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/07/07/2008-buell-1125r-liquid-cooled-rotax-v-twin/
http://thekneeslider.com/images/b1125rengine.jpg

Jmr, Nice, you got me too, pictures would be cool.

well i got a underside shot. in the manual it shows then a little more. these were posted by a fellow called easyrider on badweb. hows a very knowledge chap from the uk.


the intake ports have a upside down v like u see a lot in heads. 2 valves usually have it to move air around the guides. but in the 4 valves its to get air divided to each valve. this is for a visual only i know u guys got the science of it already lol.
ill try to find some more shots.

and the 1125 is a great bike theres some bad reviews but with the 09 reflash its cleared it all up.
also theres a soleniod that buell uses as a noise reducer. but it uses the rear intake butterfly to do it. so u can imagine this would hurt performance once its activated.
so i took it out. now i dont have something chokin off the rear intake. now 2nd and 3rd gear power wheelies are a lot more consisted. well actually 3rd gear is hard to do. so lets just stick to 2nd.
easyrider is getting 145hp and 118tq using the race ecm, which is the only programmable ecm u can get for it. so theres tons of power to be had with this 4 valver just in a little re map. and some dyno time. im excited. but u cant get the race ecm without a race licence.

Jmr, That motor is an example of the latest refinements in 4-valve Technology, and Engineering, I might understand the principals, or the science, but there are always advancements to any basic design, and there is always more to learn on any subject. I am still partial to the old V-Twin design, but if I can figure how to bolt those those heads on a standard Buell. Thanks for the info, and please keep the pics coming, I always want to learn anything new to apply to upgrading and modernizing the Feuling 4-valves, that BTW are still more advanced then most of the heads on V-Twins today.

if i can get to my parents house i could use there scanner and scan some good shots of the motor. as to adapting these hads to older buells would be tuff. i guess it wouldnt be much different then adding a super charger.
one cam is chain driving off the crank(im goin very basic, so please nobody release the flames) then the other cam is gear driving off the other. u could simplify it by using tradition rocker boxes. but im very foreign to this design. i think if u were goin to really put some time into this head on a buell tuber it would be useful to incorporate the ohv design. higher revin prossibilties. im rambling about stuff i probably shouldnt. just of lack of knowledge allown. lol

heres the top

Holy crap man, look at the size of that intake port!?!?!?

Jmr, Just plain old mechanics like myself have been kicking around ideas, and bench racing as long as there has been motorcycles, especially in racing, if guys don't through out ideas to look at the possibilities, many of the innovations that are commonplace today never would found there way to a motorcycle. Sometimes the most unique ideas come from individuals who are experts in another field completely, applying their experience and expertise to solve a problem that I couldn't, because of their ability to look at it from completely different perspective.

good point. its always nice to get a couple opinions and ideas.

So there seems to be some new "polyquad" tech out there for the 4 valve heads, very very interesting...

http://www.gofastnews.com/board/technical-articles/281-polyquad-new-four-valve-power-concept.html

http://www.motorman.co.uk/motorman_polyquad.html

Interesting, but I don't entirely agree with the fuel/air mix being shoved out the exhaust ports being a valve placement/size issue, but more a valve overlap issue, which is all in the camshaft (lobe separation angles and durations created by how aggressive the lobe is shaped). Otherwise, very cool prospect. Kinda follows the same idea as more volume doesn't mean better air if the air is too turbulent to make it into the chamber or properly explode.

You know after looking at that artical a few times the question I have now is could you not get the "twirl" effect in the intake trac by only just using diffrent rocker ratios on the dual rocker shaft, like ex; a 1.60 and 1.70... I wonder?. I read something about russ araos trick of offseting the port entrances in the head to make one side flow more/earler than the other. Anyway it is a VERY interesting read.

Even only just looking at the one dyno chart of the arao 4 valve VS the high perf ported 2 valve heads is amazing...

http://www.gofastnews.com/photos/data/547/0093.jpg

For those of you interested in this multi valve stuff, you might get a big kick out of the pics at the bottom of the page in this link...

http://www.dbindustries.com/album1_004.htm

Also the 4V tech has caused me to completely go off the deep end with this 3 valve... 4 valve... multi valve... stuff so for any of you interested in automotive multi valve stuff... check it out...

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1070216