China Davidson?

Stop making your parts and accessories in China and pawning yourself off as an AMERICAN company.

EVERYTHING your pushing out is made in China. Why?

Its cheaper to make in China, then mark it up when it gets here.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/Beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

I don't much care where it's made as long as it's high quality. What parts are you aware of on a Harley that are made in China?

There is a thread for whining.

so you're saying that you want hd to go into the fork manufacturing business? as well as computers, too? how about bearings?

if they did that, no one would be able to afford an hd.

EVERYTHING your pushing out is made in China. Why?

Grammar issues aside - "pushing out"?

and EVERYTHING?

:dunno

China Davidson?

Stop making your parts and accessories in China and pawning yourself off as an AMERICAN company.

EVERYTHING your pushing out is made in China. Why?

But hop into that American Toyota or whatever POS import you drive and think nothing less of it!?!?!


:doh

I can't think of many parts on my bike that are made in China. This little bicycle speedometer that I put on is the only one that comes to mind.
http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Dash.jpg

Maybe some of the electronic parts that make up my Dyna 2000i ignition.

Most parts I buy for my bike are aftermarket made in America. I have a English swing arm. My HID headlight is German/Japanese.

I don't care as much about where it's made as is it the best part available. Most of the best parts for Harley's are American made anyway. S&S, PM, Andrews, Cometic, Jims, Barnett...

I think he may be referring to the accessory parts in the showroom. Check out the packages and see all the parts imported from other countries. I do not think he means the parts referrred in the posts (computer, etc.)

Fred

My girl got me a mini Harley replica from the Franklin Mint. Officially licensed from Harley. $100 bucks. Made in China.

SHAME ON YOU HARLEY. We could made that HERE.

A

My girl got me a mini Harley replica from the Franklin Mint. Officially licensed from Harley. $100 bucks. Made in China.

SHAME ON YOU HARLEY. We could made that HERE.

A

So send it back....

What really tears it is when you get a American flag made in China. :frownone

Im ashamed in Harley for doing business with nothing other than USA. We are out of work right now.

probably 90% of what everyday american use comes from oversea's. Harley is no different. Harley is China and Mexico, with some US.

probably 90% of what everyday american use comes from oversea's. Harley is no different. Harley is China and Mexico, with some US.

the MoCo is no different - you're right - and it's true that at least 90% of what's *for sale* in any store here was not made in America, but that doesn't mean we can't almost always buy American made products... it just takes a little more time. i personally make a serious effort to search for an American version when i can, and if i have to spend a little more then i'm ok with that.

the products we make at the manufacturing plant where i work aren't anything i could buy but i see every day that we STILL DO make some things around here. let me encourage all of you to look at the label and buy American. of course if you shop at shit-hole stores like WAL-MART you might not find anything there that's made in your country, (not even the American flags - like biknut said) and of course any money you spend there will quickly leave your community, so stand up for your country and try to stick to independent sellers of all sorts where you can find things actually made in the U.S.A.

That would be because Harley Davidson is like McDonald's burger chain - a modern day success story built around a good but basic product that fulfils a very basic need. Start with that good basic product, make sure quality control is good, dress it up a bit, with a few options, market the hell out of it, source it wherever the source is cheapest while maintaining the standard of quality of your good but basic product, and watch the money roll in.
The Big Mac philosophy has turned what was once an ailing niche market machine into the biggest selling large capacity bike in the world.
It's 400,000 bikes a year now, compared with about 10,000 to 20,000 in the 60s and 70s.
That is 4 million new bikes sold in 10 years, and counting.

But I hear ya. The price you pay for Genuine HD parts in the display pacs out front of the dealer are triple or more the price of Taiwan Ted's aftermarket parts, but to then read "Made in China/Taiwan/etc" on the back of the genuine HD packaging just rankles like hell.

It all comes down to what are you willing to pay. The hefty mark up on "Genuine" HD accessories (that are made in foreign countries) goes straight to HD. They use that money to pay their workers, expand their factories, buy ad time on TV, etc. The 95% mark up would still be there if they made their accessories in the US but would you buy them if they cost double what they do now?

A lot of it is corporate greed and shareholder demand but a fair chunk of it goes right back into the US.

I haven't bought a flag lately but if I was shopping for one it is hard to justify paying 10 times as much just because it is made locally. Sometimes there is a quality difference, sometimes not.

The US (like other successful countries) has to concentrate on producing products that they do well or that are successful for other economic reasons (because of shipping, local demand, local resources etc.)

Bulk, unskilled or semi-skilled labor is not the US's forte. Most of the crap people bolt onto their Sporty is produced is in countries where this is their strength.

If you want quality parts, they are out there. Produced in the USA but with a price tag that fits the level of quality or short run nature.

So go back to your house (built with Canadian softwood) sit down on your favorite chair, covered with (Pakistani) leather, boot up your laptop (made with Japanese components) and search out American made parts (produced on Korean lathes and mills). It's a global economy, wake up and smell the (South American) coffee (the Hawaiian stuff is too expensive).

KongBastard

It all comes down to what are you willing to pay.

I'm with Kong.

There are so many economic issues at play here that I'd need another XLForum to post it all, but needless to say to expect an American company competing in the global marketplace to solely produce it's goods in the US is ridiculous. It's just not economically viable....unless of course you'd be willing to pay double the MSRP for your Sporty.

I too am tired of cheap Chinese junk flooding our markets that is why I avoid buying it when ever possible. This includes the cheap chrome trinkets for sale at the dealership, I made several items myself. I bought others from quality manufacturers, not always in the USA ( Metzeler tires) but high quality none the less. But some things are just not practical to make else where, no one wants to pay fifty cents for a paper clip or a dollar for a pencil. For countries like the US to flourish we have to be on the cutting edge of new technology and stay productive. Take our auto industry, lazy overpaid UAW workers and over paid unqualified managment people. I have been to factories in china those people run everywhere and work at a furious pace. Most of them are unskilled, pray to god they never get skilled or we will be in real trouble. So there is two sides to thid dilema one how we spend our money and also how we work.

you can buy US products that are better quality and cheaper...
i got my Fox Creek jacket about 2 weeks ago and the quality can not be beat.
the jackets Harley sells are not even close, and they cost more...
when you factor in the lifetime warranty and the unmatched customer service, it is a no brainer...
one of my buddies has a Schott jacket that was much more expensive and is no better made or fitted than the Fox Creek jacket.
i go out of my way to buy American.
at some point these corporate pea brains are going to realize that people need jobs to buy their products.
i doubt there are many Harleys parked in the factory lots in China...

Funny that Hondas are a Japanese company making and selling cars here and people complain. Harley is an American making their stuff in other places and people complain. The only company that may survive the economy is Wal-Mart where people stand in line to buy stuff made somewhere else and complain.

Where are the people that have a real solution to the real issue?

AW

I think to understand everything at play in this thread we'd need to start listing all the issues separately, otherwise we all start arguing over something we probably agree on for the most part. The HD/ China argument is pretty much a global phenomenon now as the corporation has taken over. It's not a simple case of in which territory a thing is made any more, it's about feeling conned by corporations and the sense of injustice and fraudulence that many of us feel victim to, amongst other things. Typically, countries like the US and the UK have become service industries (i.e. McDonalds and shopping malls) which use the 'third world' as the industrial area - cheap labour, cheap resources, fewer human rights and regulations to worry about. For anyone with even half a heart, this has to strike us as just plain wrong.

Some of the things that gall me about corporations:

1. Presenting a product as 'American' or 'British' or whatever (which does imply local employees, identity and benefits to the community) when it's made elsewhere. I understand the global economy argument, but it's the presentation I question, which is largely down to advertising and marketing i.e. Satan's little helpers.
2. Trading with countries that still commit the most sickening human and animal rights abuses that would make anyone on this forum's stomach churn
3. Routine use of slave labour, and poor working terms and conditions to avoid paying local workers a decent wage i.e. the profits before people ethos
4. the impact on the environment of routinely transporting cheaply made products thousands of miles from where they're made to where they're sold
5. The enormous political power corporations now have, generally used in the interests of greed. Interestingly, if profiled using psychiatric classifications, the average corporation comes out with a diagnosis of psychopath or ''sociopathic personality disorder'

Here's an excellent documentary called The Corporation. Think I may have posted this before. http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3969792790081230711

As for solutions to the real issue, I think we each of us need to decide whether we're happy with this state of affairs and go about our business. Or, if we aren't happy about it, do something about it. Write to the corporation, your MP, your senator, decide to spend your money according to your personal ethic. Main thing is to let people know there's a better way and it may not involve feeding the machine. Problem is, many of us have been so conditioned into conforming that we now view protest as 'whining' or in Facist Britain - "whingeing".

My girl got me a mini Harley replica from the Franklin Mint. Officially licensed from Harley. $100 bucks. Made in China.

SHAME ON YOU HARLEY. We could made that HERE.

A

don't blame hd for that one, blame the franklin mint. most of their stuff is (cheap foreign) junk anyway.

Originally Posted by spackelquack
EVERYTHING your pushing out is made in China. Why?
Grammar issues aside - "pushing out"?

and EVERYTHING?

:dunno

:doh did you mean "putting out"?

I thought you were using "pushing" as a reference to "forcing" product on us...

I still take issue with "everything" - surely all of their parts and accessories are not made overseas...

It's true that at least 90% of what's *for sale* in any store here was not made in America, but that doesn't mean we can't almost always buy American made products... it just takes a little more time. i personally make a serious effort to search for an American version when i can, and if i have to spend a little more then I'm OK with that.

+1 The closer you spend your money to where you live the better chance you have of getting some of it back. It does take more effort. Recently I needed to buy new bandannas and couldn't find USA ones in Pittsburgh but was able to get some over the Internet. Hopefully the Made in the USA printing is real, if not I tried. My 2¢.

it is all based on greed.
Fox Creek has proven to me they can produce a better product at a better price in the US.
Harley may have $50 in one of those $500 jackets they try to sell.
i have no idea what the stealer cost is but you can bet they are making $100 or better.
it will all come back to bite them on the ass eventually.
they need consumers to buy their products.
last time i checked people drawing unemployment are not buying much.
and i would bet my ass not many people in China are riding a Harley or wearing one of their crummy Chinese jackets.
if Fox Creek can make better jackets and prosper, so can Harley.
they choose to be greedy.
if Honda is employing Americans to produce the cars they have in the US i consider them American made.
it is a damn shame the American companies are not intelligent enough to compete on their own turf...
i bought my bike from them because i wanted a Harley.
i will not buy anything else from them.
i even get the dealer shirts i collect off e-bay for $7.99...:laugh

it is all based on greed.
Fox Creek has proven to me they can produce a better product at a better price in the US.
Harley may have $50 in one of those $500 jackets they try to sell.


It's a little more complicated than that.

First off not everything we're talking about are leather jackets.

Secondly, what constitutes sufficient margin for one company might mean nothing to another company.

not to mention I'd assume Fox Creek is producing their own garments, which removes one level of discount from the product making it potentially more profitable for them.

On the flip size Harley has efficiency of scale, but still.

It's not all black and white.

Though I still go for something like Aerostitch made here in that particular case anyway.

Kev

Harley is a publicly held company. This puts management in the postion of trying to maximize profits in order to maximize the market price of the company's stock as well as maximize their performance awards (stock options and bonus compensation). Management directly benefits from both of these goals.

Buying or manufacturing products from less costly sources while maintaining the sales prices simply maximizes the profits helping to meet the goals. Price adjustments will only come when market pressure forces a decrease.

Fox Creek is probably privately held and does not have the pressures that a publicly held company does. Performance awards are most likely cash payments to the individuals, most likely the owner/managers, who run the business. Market value of the company means little to them unless they want to get out of the business.

Fred

it is all based on greed.
Fox Creek has proven to me they can produce a better product at a better price in the US.
Harley may have $50 in one of those $500 jackets they try to sell.

i even get the dealer shirts i collect off e-bay for $7.99...:laugh

why even get the ts to start with?

along the lines of what kevm said, i would also wager that the dealership has a higher overhead than fox creek, so more money is required to keep the lights burning.....

you do realize we call them stealers for a reason?
you all know we can by better aftermarket stuff than what they sell for inflated prices.
i guess they do need the extra money to pay the 5 babes they have trying to sell clothes...:laugh
Harley has no "clothes" overhead...
they buy the stuff dirt cheap in China and mark it up at least 300%.
lets see...
buy a jacket for $50. (that is probably high)
sell it online for $475 + shipping.
not to shabby for the bottom line.
and the jacket is crap for something in that price range.
i guess they charge $70/hour for service since they pay the guys $18...
the point is they are not even trying to be American as apple pie anymore.
a damn shame what greed does.

i buy the t shirts because i like to collect them from around the world.
the fact that i only pay what they are actually worth is just a bonus.

There is a thread for whining.

It's in my signature !! If you need it.

It's not just HD my friend, We have out-sourced the USA Period !!


To create a one world standard (which is inevitable) There is no way we can bring every country up to our standard of living. So it stands to reason that our standards are going to go down.
Korea, Nam, Japan, Germany then China all became great marketplaces for the US and because of the US. The next big market may be Iraq !!??

EVERYTHING your pushing out is made in China. Why?
it "you are" not your

EVERYTHING your pushing out is made in China. Why?
its "you are" not your

On other forums dealing with big twin engines there is a growing problem with defective crank shafts. Most say that these crank shafts were made in china since the introduction of the 96 cid engine. Harley used to replace cranks with a excess of .004 run out but with the number of cranks that exceeded these numbers increased Harley just changed the acceptable run out to .012

One of my best friends makes all of the Sportster leather bags for Harley. I know they're American made. They use American cows for the leather too!

The US deficit is largely funded by the Chinese. Both countries are financially intertwined. If China would stop or even slow down financing The US debt,that would really mess things up financially.
They won't because that would trigger the dollar downwards, thus diminishing what they get in return for playing the Bank for America.

Why am I bringing this in the discussion on the OP's vent on "made in China" ?
It's just to get a larger perspective on things, and add to the debate.

On one hand some of us complain about the made-in-China-stuff, while in the Big Picture China (and Japan) are the biggest financers of the huge debt-and consume driven US.
And the "US" is not some abstract entity, it's all the Americans combined!

In a global economy businesses get their low-tech products made where labourcosts are low(er).
In China, as prosperity is growing, the workers wages are rising.General standard of living is moving up for many and a huge middle class emerges.
On a global scale : China is getting less attractive for manufacturing in the long run.
So the search for even lower labour manufacturing costs is on and among others shifting to Vietnam. This is a neverending story.
Protectionism (only buying American made and for instance import tarifs on foreign articles) would only make things worse. Who would finance America ?

I'm just a simple dude from The Netherlands,so who am I to speak, but I don't think true patriotism is measured on a "I buy more US made stuff then you.." scale.

Just contributing to the debate :wonderlan.

Good luck, happy easter and ride safe :)

EVERYTHING your pushing out is made in China. Why?
its "you are" not your

And it's "it's", not "its" while we are at it.



Whaddawe outlawfreakinlinguists now? FFS. Givetheguya break. He's makin a good point. WTF is with the great American freedom machine outsourcing to factories in a country with one of the worst human rights records in the world, outside of Africa. It is that kind of blinkered greed that has led to the current global economic crisis.
The answer is easy: don't buy their slave-labor built shyte. Insist on parts made in Free Taiwan, or democratic Japan.

And it's "it's", not "its" while we are at it..

:laugh :wonderlan ;) :p

I hate to say it but the majority of our population created this problem with the Wallmart mentality (always the cheapest price). We want it cheaper so they give it to us but at a hidden cost, who among us does not look for the sale price or buy online to save money. I do avoid buying the cheap stuff made in China and have made several of my own parts to get the quality that I demand at the price I can afford. That is all we can do, refuse to buy the cheap crap, tell the dealers why we will not buy it, and #1 pay the price for the high quality products.

I have only heard one person hit a key note here. That being about the American workforce. I am in management and i have an employee that used to work with a friend of mine at a television tube manufacturing facility in the area. This man and my friend both say that was the best job they ever had. Why? Because they speak of only working 30 minutes out of every hour and having the ability to sleep at work, etc.... Well this went on for over 30 years for the employees there that took advantage of their employment there. Mismanaged? Totally. It was a union shop and in the end the company closed this facility and moved it to Mexico. Just a thought that if the entire facility had not been doing so many time wasting things they may still be there. They may have moved at some point anyway, but the fact is they were not being productive for the money that was paid. I am certain that this is not the only case of this in this country.

I have only heard one person hit a key note here. That being about the American workforce. I am in management and i have an employee that used to work with a friend of mine at a television tube manufacturing facility in the area. This man and my friend both say that was the best job they ever had. Why? Because they speak of only working 30 minutes out of every hour and having the ability to sleep at work, etc.... Well this went on for over 30 years for the employees there that took advantage of their employment there. Mismanaged? Totally. It was a union shop and in the end the company closed this facility and moved it to Mexico. Just a thought that if the entire facility had not been doing so many time wasting things they may still be there. They may have moved at some point anyway, but the fact is they were not being productive for the money that was paid. I am certain that this is not the only case of this in this country.

oh I so agree.. and it's not an isolated case.

Coming from a Private enterprise such as an automobile mechanic where if you hustled you got paid more, to something like civil service is the equivalent of culture shock. Being told to "SLOW DOWN" because you're making the rest of us look bad is NOT just something you find in Civil Service. Union Shops all over the place have the same mindset. Why should they move any faster, it's not like they can get fired for being slow..

The union had it's place and it's time, now it's time we got rid of them, They do very little to help the average worker (unless you're tied into the union) and they definitely hurt the companies ability to remain globally competitive. GM is a prime example, over $1000.00 per vehicle is spent on previous employees who haven't worked for the company in 10 or more years.

If Harley's were made completely in American you couldn't afford one.

If Harley's were made completely in American you couldn't afford one.

+1. Welcome to 21st Century Business. If the MoCo used 100% American parts this would create slim margins and the shareholders would not be happy. At least we don't have it as bad as Triumph - A legendary "British" bike that is now being produced in Thailand.

Hey Suge Nightster,
Thanks for posting your photos. Nice apes on that Nightster.
I have the same bike/color/year. Do you like the pipes?
Do you drag the lower pipe at all?
I drag the stock, want to stop the dragging but can't stop my leaning.
Custom work on your helmet? Paint? Nice.
Thanks for a reply.
As for China and Harley, I can ask my good friend who makes all the Sportster bags for Harley if much is foriegn made.
I tend to think not much even on the lower cost Sportster. I'm not naive but just think they are trying to keep U.S. made on bikes and with appareal anything goes.
Global trade has hurt us and but as Bill Clinton said it makes the Dollar go further and he is correct. My main concern as a man who owns a manufacturing business here in the States is that we end up paying fat cats to employ people over seas in slave labor wages. The sweat shop is what I deplore.
You can make Harley leather bags right here in Illinois I know because I watch it being done at my friends shop daily. 35% of the Harly product is made here with American citizens and U.S. materials. Don't let anyone tell you it can't be done.
You are correct Suge in that stock holders need to see a profit and many of them don't ride or can't ride or ride rice burners perhaps.

Best to all,
Ken

If Harley's were made completely in American you couldn't afford one.

Hey Heckler,
I dissagree. The Goldwing is made (last year for it) in Maryville, TN.
Perhaps parts from other countries of course but built here, absolutely.

We can afford our own products, if we can't then who is buying them.

American's must stop attempting to own as much as they can fit in their yard barn and garage and instead concentrate on quality and pride.
Pride in buying American and quality (hopefully American as well).
What I am concerned with is attitudes of workers who can't see that they are not just making the "Man" rich when they make profits for the company they are providing a place of employment for the future, perhaps their children and grandchildren.
I own a non-union shop. Not because I am anti-union but because in our industry unions were never formed.
I have close friends who are union skilled tradesmen and some of the best in the midwest. I appreciate a well trained person who can fabricate.
I am a very good fabricator myself and I know what it takes to raise a family and hold a household together so I pay my people well.
We simply need to work towards stability in the markets and grow pride among our workers. This creates a solid economic base in which all of us can own a Harley is we so choose, or a Victory (American made) and not worry about the foriegn trade.
Harley petitioned President Ronald Reagan for a tariff on import Japanese bikes back in 82. That saved Harley then. Perhaps the playing field needs to be leveled a bit more now, I don't know.
But In my humble opinion it isn't chinese parts that make Harley the profits.

Encourage them to continue to make quality number one, keep pricing low and we can all go buy their stock and be proud American patriots!

Enjoy the riding season.

Best,
Ken

i want more jap stuff on my bike maybe that way it will be as fast as a jap bike ???? :clap :sofa

Το Confusis λέει, η κινεζική ποιότητα είναι ανώτερη από την αμερικανική ποιότητα με κάθε τρόπο:p

Hey Suge Nightster,
Thanks for posting your photos. Nice apes on that Nightster.
I have the same bike/color/year. Do you like the pipes?
Do you drag the lower pipe at all?
I drag the stock, want to stop the dragging but can't stop my leaning.
Custom work on your helmet? Paint? Nice.


Thanks for the compliments. I like the pipes but they seem to be very common. I would like to replace with something unique/different in the future. I haven't dragged the pipe yet...I've only had the bike for about 3 months and I still havent ridden it through the canyons.

There could be a number of reasons that HD chose to use non-American made parts...cost is probably the biggest reason but it could also be because of quality. Having said that, I try to buy aftermarket stuff that is made in the USA even my gear. I just hope more American shops start producing more Japanese "bratstyle" parts. They make some cool stuff over there.

Hey Heckler,
I dissagree. The Goldwing is made (last year for it) in Maryville, TN.
Perhaps parts from other countries of course but built here, absolutely.

We can afford our own products, if we can't then who is buying them.

American's must stop attempting to own as much as they can fit in their yard barn and garage and instead concentrate on quality and pride.
Pride in buying American and quality (hopefully American as well).
What I am concerned with is attitudes of workers who can't see that they are not just making the "Man" rich when they make profits for the company they are providing a place of employment for the future, perhaps their children and grandchildren.
I own a non-union shop. Not because I am anti-union but because in our industry unions were never formed.
I have close friends who are union skilled tradesmen and some of the best in the midwest. I appreciate a well trained person who can fabricate.
I am a very good fabricator myself and I know what it takes to raise a family and hold a household together so I pay my people well.
We simply need to work towards stability in the markets and grow pride among our workers. This creates a solid economic base in which all of us can own a Harley is we so choose, or a Victory (American made) and not worry about the foriegn trade.
Harley petitioned President Ronald Reagan for a tariff on import Japanese bikes back in 82. That saved Harley then. Perhaps the playing field needs to be leveled a bit more now, I don't know.
But In my humble opinion it isn't chinese parts that make Harley the profits.

Encourage them to continue to make quality number one, keep pricing low and we can all go buy their stock and be proud American patriots!

Enjoy the riding season.

Best,
Ken

Yep, just like Harley's.
Parts from overseas and assembled in America.

I'm afraid anything being completely American made is a thing of the past.
It's a global economy. I don't care what you buy today it's going to have some parts made in other countries.
Everything from our clothes to our houses and our cars. Something in all of them comes from overseas.
It's just the nature of the game.

I recently traded my sportser for a FZ1. The sportie was a solid reliable bike, build quality was top notch. But harley just does not make a bike that gives me that good ol speed boner. I looked at the V-ROD it was not to shabby but it handled like shit and they quit making the R model. I liked the XR but I could not justify the extra 4 grand. The thing is harley could sell there bikes cheaper, there are just not in competition with the other motorcycle manufactures and they know it. They have brand loyalty now, but all that is changing.

Well, I was taking my gear lever off the other day, it was seized tight; so I removed the bolt, got out my GS screwdriver and gave it a couple of taps in the gap where the bolt pulls it down as I have done so many times with other bikes. It still wouldn't shift, so gave it another one a bit harder with my mallet and the b****y thing split! :censor It's not even made from steel but cheap cast alloy! I couldn't weld it up with my MIG as I have only steel wire, so I have to wait till after the Easter holiday to go back to my old college where I worked and TIG weld it up next week. Talk about cheap and nasty made!
My old MZ was made in a Commie country and I've had the lever off and it's steel and it's 23 years old! My old Brit bikes were the same.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/1961littledave/P4120012.jpg

One thought that I had after readin this is that it's just about impossible to know where everything came from and where it's going. For example ( I am not saying this is true, it is just a thought that occured to me):

Raw material could be from several different countries. One material could be from USA, other could be from South America and etc. They are all sent to England and combined into one material. That material is now sent to Germany to be molded into something that is not raw anymore. That "something" would be sent to USA to be made into whatever it could be. Finally, it's sent over to China to be built into a final product. That final product is sent everywhere in the world to be bought by consumers.

My point is, it's not that easy to just say it's from one country. All in all, it could have come from everywhere.

We are truly a global economy and there is alot happening from behind the scene. Oh, had a another thought come to mind. Whole thing could have been designed by someone in Africa, engineered by someone in India, fine tuned by someone in Italy. Finally factory to make final product had to be built. Who designed the factory, built the factory, made the raw and final material to build factory. It goes on and on and it gets to the point that nobody knows who had their hand in it and who made money from it.

One thought that I had after readin this is that it's just about impossible to know where everything came from and where it's going. For example ( I am not saying this is true, it is just a thought that occured to me):

Raw material could be from several different countries. One material could be from USA, other could be from South America and etc. They are all sent to England and combined into one material. That material is now sent to Germany to be molded into something that is not raw anymore. That "something" would be sent to USA to be made into whatever it could be. Finally, it's sent over to China to be built into a final product. That final product is sent everywhere in the world to be bought by consumers.

My point is, it's not that easy to just say it's from one country. All in all, it could have come from everywhere.

We are truly a global economy and there is alot happening from behind the scene. Oh, had a another thought come to mind. Whole thing could have been designed by someone in Africa, engineered by someone in India, fine tuned by someone in Italy. Finally factory to make final product had to be built. Who designed the factory, built the factory, made the raw and final material to build factory. It goes on and on and it gets to the point that nobody knows who had their hand in it and who made money from it.

Good point. For me, the issue is mainly one of quality, not where something's built. If it's good quality, reliable and lasts, ,then it doesn't really matter where it's built. The other condition would be that it's produced fairly i.e. the customers, workers and evironment aren't exploited.

What really tears it is when you get a American flag made in China. :frownone

The Chinese must have a great market selling American flags in the Middle East. Judging by the number of times you see the flag being burnt, there must be a flag stall on every street corner. :rolleyes:

The US deficit is largely funded by the Chinese. Both countries are financially intertwined. If China would stop or even slow down financing The US debt,that would really mess things up financially.
They won't because that would trigger the dollar downwards, thus diminishing what they get in return for playing the Bank for America.

Why am I bringing this in the discussion on the OP's vent on "made in China" ?
It's just to get a larger perspective on things, and add to the debate.

On one hand some of us complain about the made-in-China-stuff, while in the Big Picture China (and Japan) are the biggest financers of the huge debt-and consume driven US.
And the "US" is not some abstract entity, it's all the Americans combined!

In a global economy businesses get their low-tech products made where labourcosts are low(er).
In China, as prosperity is growing, the workers wages are rising.General standard of living is moving up for many and a huge middle class emerges.
On a global scale : China is getting less attractive for manufacturing in the long run.
So the search for even lower labour manufacturing costs is on and among others shifting to Vietnam. This is a neverending story.
Protectionism (only buying American made and for instance import tarifs on foreign articles) would only make things worse. Who would finance America ?

I'm just a simple dude from The Netherlands,so who am I to speak, but I don't think true patriotism is measured on a "I buy more US made stuff then you.." scale.

Just contributing to the debate :wonderlan.

Good luck, happy easter and ride safe :)

That's the most perceptive explanation of the situation that I've read in this thread. Not saying it's a good thing that the US and UK have only the remnants of once-great manufacturing industries, but our desires to buy affordable goods and to buy goods made in our homeland are often conflicting desires. This may well be down to corporate greed - the huge mark-ups that manufacturers want to enable huge profits for their shareholders (and some of us may be numbered among them), but I'd be very surprised to hear any American argue that the profits made by companies should be regulated to enable us to afford, for instance, American- or British-built chrome doodads to bolt on our bikes. That, I would have thought, would be getting a little too close to state control of industry, and the C word. :shhhh

That's the most perceptive explanation of the situation that I've read in this thread.

Can I take that as a compliment ? :p:D;)
define perceptive please for this allien ? Dictionarry failed

Can I take that as a compliment ? :p:D;)
define perceptive please for this allien ? Dictionarry failed

Yes, you can, Erik. :)

Perceptive - Having perception, discerning, sensitive.
Perception - Act or faculty of perceiving; intuitive recognition (of truth, aesthetic quality, etc).
Perceive - Apprehend with the mind, observe, understand.

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc205/sportster1200/chokeknob004Medium.jpg

Another thing is that the people spec-ing the material aren't asking for what they need. and they aren't testing to make sure they get what they are specifying. China and some other countries are quite capable of making quality products. But if a company like Harley or GM or whoever, doesn't specify a certain grade or quality, then they are going to get the cheapest piece that can be made from a bidder. Don't blame the country that it comes from for the quality. There are many companies within each country all trying to win bids from American firms. It's all about business. They are all trying to make it cheaper to win the bid. Which is why The U.S. firm that is ordering the parts to put on their bikes or cars need to be very careful about how they write their specs. If you specify junk you will get junk, but if you specify quality and you test the product then you will get quality parts. The metallurgical alloy can be specified along with the acceptable tolerances and clearances.
As far as being U.S. made, I suggest you take a tour of a Harley factory. I recently toured the plant in Kansas City and I was impressed.
Having said all of that, all kinds of advertising ploys exist. Did you know that there is a city named Usa in China. Don't think that was an accident! Be very careful when buying something that says "Made in USA" versus "Made in U.S.A."

I think it's called progress. If you're complaining about shiny Chinese Harley branded parts, don't buy them. Look for used parts from the days when those were made in the USA. If you whine too much I might have to look at your belt; probably made in China. They make belts here, you didn't look. Socks - still made here. Shoes - tough but some boots and expensive dress shoes, yeah. Jeans - yep, only some Levis but Pointer in VA makes 'em. Leather jackets - Fox Creek, Schott. Too expensive, buy them used on ebay for the cost of a Pakistani one. You want made in USA, you gotta work at it. What bveer do you drink? I hope not Bud products if you're complaining about them Chinese shiny bits. What's wrong with Yuengling and Leinenkugal? American Family owned. What I'm trying to say is, you can't complain about one thing without looking at it all. Oh, and your eggs? American owned Factory farm where the chickens are are abused to a level that will make you sick or did you spend a little more for the guy down the street with a nice, little flock in his yard? I don't have any answers, i only know what I do to make myself feel better because in the end, nobody else gives a hoot.

Hey Ironhead. I see where you own a Nomad. I do as well. It's my long range bike.
My Harley is a Nightster.
I see your Bronson type bike. My friend Bruce Vetter made a bag that was inspired by that show and called it the Bronson Bag.

Best,
Ken

Thanks Ken,
I like the Nomad. It's easy to put miles behind you on it.
I've seen the Bronson Bag advertised. I didn't know that Vetter was the one who put it out.
It's cool that you know him. He's a very creative guy.
Check out the Bronson thread on this site. We are having a 40 year reunion of the show at Mountainfest in WV. Several Bronson Replicas and lots of memorabilia from the show.

The US deficit is largely funded by the Chinese. Both countries are financially intertwined. If China would stop or even slow down financing The US debt,that would really mess things up financially.
They won't because that would trigger the dollar downwards, thus diminishing what they get in return for playing the Bank for America.

Why am I bringing this in the discussion on the OP's vent on "made in China" ?
It's just to get a larger perspective on things, and add to the debate.

On one hand some of us complain about the made-in-China-stuff, while in the Big Picture China (and Japan) are the biggest financers of the huge debt-and consume driven US.
And the "US" is not some abstract entity, it's all the Americans combined!

In a global economy businesses get their low-tech products made where labourcosts are low(er).
In China, as prosperity is growing, the workers wages are rising.General standard of living is moving up for many and a huge middle class emerges.
On a global scale : China is getting less attractive for manufacturing in the long run.
So the search for even lower labour manufacturing costs is on and among others shifting to Vietnam. This is a neverending story.
Protectionism (only buying American made and for instance import tarifs on foreign articles) would only make things worse. Who would finance America ?

I'm just a simple dude from The Netherlands,so who am I to speak, but I don't think true patriotism is measured on a "I buy more US made stuff then you.." scale.

Just contributing to the debate :wonderlan.

Good luck, happy easter and ride safe :)


Erik,
You are not a "simple dude" you are very sharp and have done your homework.
You are correct about all you have said. The bottom line is we cannot become unentwinded now with any nation we are doing business with. It's debt issues and low cost labor issues, etc.
However, I feel we are long past protectionist trends in that it is not possible to do what we would like to do and only buy American. I own a small manufacturing business here in Illinois. I try to buy American products and supplies when ever possible however my first 5 motorcycles were metrics, all Japanese companies. My cars have nearly all been American though. Only one Datsun in 35 years.
Am I proud of this, not really, it just didn't matter all that much to me but I do like the thought of keeping good sound American based companies in business like Harley Davidson. At the time I purchased my first ever motorcycle I had friends who told me buy a Jap bike, their better engineered and cost much less. They didn't realize how much I would ride and how I enjoyed tradition. I like the Sportster as it has all I wanted in a Harley but is basic, simple and very much back to the motor, two wheels and a tank idea.

I am concerned that over time we will run out of people globally who are willing to work for peanuts. In fact costs will rise so much it will not be possible for them to work for lower wages.
In the U.S. we are seeing costs go up not down and it will only get worse with Obama in office. He is not a Conservative and will help run our over all debt up. I know that sounds like a political statement but it's not. I believe John McCAin would have put us in the same mess as Obama and as Bush did.
I'm a John Birch Society member and recommend everyone become one.

America and the nations of the world are in big trouble. Times will be changing and not for the good of anyone. Only the rich and politicians will get richer and the poor will be worse off with each passing year.

I recommend you buy a nice Harley and ride. That's the only way to truely enjoy life.

Sounds defeatist but it's really not. If American's and the people of the world will stand up to the bully presidents and leaders of the world we will be able to run our governments in a way that gets us out of debt and into freedom.

There's a very large thing at work to create a super government that will control us all. If you think the EPA and decibel police are bad now, just wait if the global warming folks get their way. EEGADS!

Better run,
Take care

I just hope you don't end up like us in the UK, bound to the EU beaucrats who are not even elected! Think yourselves lucky in the USA, things are bad, but you haven't got the plonkers we have running the country here. If I lived in the States I would at least give Obama a chance.

Thanks Ken,
I like the Nomad. It's easy to put miles behind you on it.
I've seen the Bronson Bag advertised. I didn't know that Vetter was the one who put it out.
It's cool that you know him. He's a very creative guy.
Check out the Bronson thread on this site. We are having a 40 year reunion of the show at Mountainfest in WV. Several Bronson Replicas and lots of memorabilia from the show.

I'm working with Craig Vetter now on his new streamlining project.
He's always coming up with neat new fairing designs. His newest project is to build a motorcycle that will get 100 miles to the gallon while riding into a 20 mile per hour head wind and carry four bags of groceries.

Bruce Vetter, Craig's brother runs a company that makes the leather sportster bags for Harley. Both great guys and very creative.

How about posting some Bronson bike photos here.

Best,
Ken

Well I was going to post a separate thread on the motorclothes but it looks like I have been beaten to the punch. Yeah the 5h1t is expensive. Its cool though and people who can afford it(I'm not one of them) will buy it.

"we need change." Well most people talk of change but don't want to go through the hassle and pain of change.

It all comes down to what are you willing to pay. The hefty mark up on "Genuine" HD accessories (that are made in foreign countries) goes straight to HD. They use that money to pay their workers, expand their factories, buy ad time on TV, etc. The 95% mark up would still be there if they made their accessories in the US but would you buy them if they cost double what they do now?

A lot of it is corporate greed and shareholder demand but a fair chunk of it goes right back into the US.

I haven't bought a flag lately but if I was shopping for one it is hard to justify paying 10 times as much just because it is made locally. Sometimes there is a quality difference, sometimes not.

The US (like other successful countries) has to concentrate on producing products that they do well or that are successful for other economic reasons (because of shipping, local demand, local resources etc.)

Bulk, unskilled or semi-skilled labor is not the US's forte. Most of the crap people bolt onto their Sporty is produced is in countries where this is their strength.

If you want quality parts, they are out there. Produced in the USA but with a price tag that fits the level of quality or short run nature.

So go back to your house (built with Canadian softwood) sit down on your favorite chair, covered with (Pakistani) leather, boot up your laptop (made with Japanese components) and search out American made parts (produced on Korean lathes and mills). It's a global economy, wake up and smell the (South American) coffee (the Hawaiian stuff is too expensive).

KongBastard

I think one big reason we cannot be competitive in manufacturing is the fact that these countries where these goods are being made do not have to follow the same rules we do. We cannot dump dioxins into the local river. We do not allow our factories to poison their workers with cadmium. Furthermore, our tax system actually rewards companies going overseas by allowing them to write off foreign taxes.

If we can find a new niche to create jobs, then I guess it is all good, but I do not see it coming. I think Obama's idea to create green jobs economy is not a bad idea, but I see far too little action. It could come from technical advancement, but when I was in grad school (I used to be a physicist), 90% of the students were foreigners. Americans, by and large, do not seem interested in technical education (we are becoming a country of attorneys or something). This is a huge departure from the days of the cold war, when there was keen interest in science. The government back then funded a lot of curiosity-based research. The kind that no private company would never fund, due to lack of applications. This produced a well-spring of technology that allowed us to lead the world for decades, and greatly benefited the private sector. During Clinton, the defunding started, since the Berlin wall fell and we no longer "needed" all these programs that were largely funded under the DOD budget.

If we continue down this path, I fear that one day, India will host its call centers in the US because of the cheap labor. I love this country, but we need to take it back from the moneyed interests whose only goal is myopic, short-term gain. This is what is killing us, in my opinion.

I haven't bought a flag lately but if I was shopping for one it is hard to justify paying 10 times as much just because it is made locally. Sometimes there is a quality difference, sometimes not.
KongBastard

I have a 20' flag pole in the front yard and fly a U.S. made U. S. flag 24/7.

The flags made in the U.S. are not 10 times more but they do last 10 times longer.

I started this tread a million years ago. Right now, Im rebuilding a 77' iron. Stamped on the lower fork tubes..........giant letters........."Japan"

Harley Davidson motorcycle are the greatest on earth.

Not sure how they pulled off "American Motorcycle" and got people to believe it

A

so you're saying that you want hd to go into the fork manufacturing business? as well as computers, too? how about bearings?

if they did that, no one would be able to afford an hd.

+1 on that! If it's an all American made bike, the cheapest sporty you can get will cost around 30-40k. Would you work 2$ per hour (average per hr labor in china)? That's how the Chinese does it. CHEAP LABOR.

to add my .2 cents
harley has a assembling plant in brazil... check http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?postid=1234749

also check this book page
http://books.google.com/books?id=XF7V9w8ByrcC&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=harley+brazil+assembling+plant&source=bl&ots=B24R6SgKic&sig=eih6QKLtcg7yxiW_92bsDeKWFVc&hl=en&ei=1ahaSt7KFp_Itgf2rsmaCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

Lots of good replies here.
Firstly, Harley is really no different than any other
company that can get offshore production
to increase their bottom line.

IMHO... there is another issue...
by getting parts made offshore,

HD is taking jobs away from their customers...
those customers need jobs to pay for HD bikes.
WTF !!!

This will all come back to bite HD.
Hey... how many bikes does HD sell in China?

The usual corporate greed...
shame... shame... shame...

Even the $400 HD jacket that I bought back in 05 is Chinese. I didn't notice it for a while and by then it was too late to take back, but I would have if I noticed sooner. Just about every company has sold out to China to compete. Even Gibson moved their Epiphone plant to China a few years ago.

well, the fact here is that corporations move to china because the china guys work for less money... having high quality of life, or high pay for less work is probably hurting the workers in the long run, but anyways, I really dont know how that could be solved... work everywhere is shifting to china and other places were people work almost just for food...

It is insane that this post is even needed. Harley go all the way American or go metric.

Hell, The classic canvas Converse All Stars aren't made here anymore either.
Since 2003 they've been made in Vietnam.

yes stop mr king kong china

At least buy from other American Companies! HD batteries made in Vietnam, oil labeled HD from Venezula? come on. I've had this argument before, buy or outsource from American not Commie countries, all our American dollars are leaving the country and now the economy is in the toliet thanks to that, people just don't get it. Bet I get negative replies on this post but I don't give a rat's ass we still have freedom of speech don't we? Deane

At least buy from other American Companies! HD batteries made in Vietnam, oil labeled HD from Venezula? come on. I've had this argument before, buy or outsource from American not Commie countries, all our American dollars are leaving the country and now the economy is in the toliet thanks to that, people just don't get it. Bet I get negative replies on this post but I don't give a rat's ass we still have freedom of speech don't we? Deane

But it's cheaper! And (short term) profit is all that matters. Never mind that after all the layoffs no one will be able to buy the product! In China they can just kill their workers (and people in the factory's vicinity) with heavy metals because life is cheap. Here we have rules. For instance, we do not allow this (anymore):

http://www.globalmon.org.hk/en/01news/021gp-battries-cadmium/poisoned-by-cadmium-hunan-villagers-step-up-protests/

So as long as we have these unfair trade agreements, we will suffer.

Isn't it American to out source everything now? Just like every other major American company so much is done outside our boarders... not saying I agree or like it but it's becoming the "American way".

:frownthre

I can't think of many parts on my bike that are made in China. This little bicycle speedometer that I put on is the only one that comes to mind.
http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Dash.jpg

Maybe some of the electronic parts that make up my Dyna 2000i ignition.

Most parts I buy for my bike are aftermarket made in America. I have a English swing arm. My HID headlight is German/Japanese.

I don't care as much about where it's made as is it the best part available. Most of the best parts for Harley's are American made anyway. S&S, PM, Andrews, Cometic, Jims, Barnett...

WTF is that below the Riser ??

That is sadly true, it does seem "the American way" to outsource so many things. Where's the EPA when these outsourced items are creating so much polution in foreign countries? Where's the Womens Rights groups when women are exploited, tortured & worked to death, where's Child Protection Services when children are being exploited, tortured and worked to death from age 3 on. Maybe if we went back to "made in the good 'ol USA the explotation of these foreign people would stop and jobs would return to the USA. This is not a politcal statement as I'm an Independent, I'd just like the right thing done. Deane

China violates human rights and doesnt follow same EPA rules as America? no way! how could that be?


maybe we can get some stimulus money to buy chinese goods and create more wealth for the chinese and raise their living standards??

But hop into that American Toyota or whatever POS import you drive and think nothing less of it!?!?!


:doh
Say something that makes sense!!! The Toyota is probably the most reliable and most popular vehicle in the world. Sorry it isn't American made but that's the way it is these days. Saying something different won't change it.

China violates human rights and doesnt follow same EPA rules as America? no way! how could that be?


maybe we can get some stimulus money to buy chinese goods and create more wealth for the chinese and raise their living standards??

No, they do not follow EPA guidelines. This is the problem: Our trade agreements need to level the playing field. If I have a US company that makea widgets that as a byproduct produces PCBs as waste, I cannot dump it into the local river (like GE did in the Hudson before the EPA). So I move it to China and dump with reckless abandon so I can now pocket the money I used to spend on disposal. This is the sort of thing that should be disallowed by trade agreements: American companies should be held to the same standard as far as working conditions and environmental standards wherever they set up shop. Otherwise, it is just a race to the bottom.

And we are certainly sending a ton of money to them and we are raising their standard of living, but largely at our own expense for quick, cheap profit for the few and misery for the many.

Not sure I get the American made when talking about Toyota. In Tennessee we make Toyotas and in my town we make many parts for both Japanese and American car manufacturers.

I agree on getting who makes the best stuff. This is a global village now - even though I am not crazy about many of our planets neighbors. Yet, I try to patron the locals so they stay in business and I can get things locally when I need them. However, when it comes to some things they don't make them here, like aluminum swingarms. And the Italians make some of the coolest parts that no one here makes - not that I can afford them. And the germans make some of the best electronics but I bought mine from an American because of price and the exchange rate. But, I bet most of it was made in China. Sure, given the choice I will buy American first and some out fits like Storz give me that choice and it is all American made - AFAIK.

I just bought a set of Arlen Ness mirrors for my chopper off ebay and when I got them, both packages had a little rectangle cut out in the bottom corner, right where it would normally say where they were made. After installing them and noticing that they used an 8mm and a 13mm, I'm quite certain that the spot cut out on the box said "made in China".
It really is a shame that these companies are out sourcing like this for cheap labor.

probably 90% of what everyday american use comes from oversea's. Harley is no different. Harley is China and Mexico, with some US.

Yeah.. I just replaced the front brake switch on my XR, and the part was made in Mexico. At least they wrote it that way, instead of putting "hecho in Mexico" like they used to.:D

Ain't that somethin? First we sent stuff to Japan, but they sucked at it. Then, the Japanese got great at it. We didn't like that. Then we sent things to Everywhere else.

It's like, if it get's too good of quality, companies just don't wanna send it there.

Meh,, Corporations don't see borders anyway.

do you really know why harley outsources parts from asian countries? because they want to offer you a better product... REALLY ! mainily with chrome accessories! asian countries have little to no polution laws! therefore they can use oldschool tech and procedures when chroming! they can get away with using ways of chroming that we used to use back in 50's and 60's . if you notice alot of cars from that era are either completely kept up with or rotting to hell, but if you look at certain things on those cars ''i.e. chrome'' is almost like new.and truthfully you shouldnt have doubt in harley. they are always looking for the best products for you! thats why they outsource "mainly chrome" items , because other countries can get away with traditional ways of manufacturing! as here in the U.S. things are alot stricter now and the oldschool or "right way" of chroming is a thing of the past.

the us owes china soooooo much money, generations to come will never pay it off!!!!

parts could be made here but our work ethics will not allow it. the us has become a give me country. the industry where i work, i am surprised that it still exists comsidering the type of employees it has. most are lazy or have the attitude what do it get and not what can i add. some day, it will come, a great accident and the gulf coast will be another california and gasoline will go out the roof.

the mms (big brother) has already said in a bulletin that there are not enough qualified people to operate the gulf waters that they would consider shutting down lease sales.

insurance companies make it so bad for operators, that you now almost have to have specialized training and a certificate to change a roll of toliet paper.

i do not like chinese junk like the next guy but i will say this : if you absolutely supervise the chinese mfg.'s, they will make quality stuff, but never,never, never allow them on their own because they will cut corners. they also know you have very little legal recourse so the best thing is to avoid them if possible.

the americans need to get their act together. remember the truckers strike that shut down america in the past. now you could not get very many to strike because the solidarity is gone just like in virtually every american mfg.'s.

hd is becoming just like them, heck, even the new styling is more over seas than not!!

speaking of hd going over seas with their machines, what about their engineering???

for years, hd was favorable to being worked on with simplicity. case in point - hd's switch to the vertical split cases. the old trap door made things easy to work on, test and redo if needed. now the engine has to be removed and completely disassembled, repairs made and hopefully correctly and the reassembled and engine in frame for a test. if not right, the whole process has to be started over.

this works as a plus to the stealer's shop but makes it hard on their customer base. the ones who wrench their rides are typically more loyal than the weekend warrior who know nothing about their machine and usually do not want to know(this is who hd is courting). this is because they have a one on one with the iron and it means more to them than just to say i got an "hd". if i had a choice of super dependability it would be honda but i still ride hd because i have worked on it throughout the years and thoroghly enjoy the good as well as the bad.

but rest assured, i will not and i repeat will not buy a hd with vertical split case. this was a necessary evil for the crank, but for the transmission, get real.

why do we all own harleys?

parts could be made here but our work ethics will not allow it. the us has become a give me country. the industry where i work, i am surprised that it still exists comsidering the type of employees it has. most are lazy or have the attitude what do it get and not what can i add.


Check out this company http://www.nucor.com/story/

And some videos http://www.nucor.com/voice/headlines/

If we (Harley enthusiasts) would communicate our issues and concerns to Harley Davidson and their dealer network maybe some positive changes would occur. Instead we continue to buy the products they put to market (regardless of quality and origin of parts) and we "vent" our frustrations to each other on this forum. Go figure?

Check out this company http://www.nucor.com/story/

And some videos http://www.nucor.com/voice/headlines/

NUCOR is an awesome American company. Non-union and the employees are paid based on their shift's production.

I know because, my dad, brother and friends works for NUCOR in Plymouth, Utah. They love it.

:banana

I second the thumbs up to Fox Creek Leather.
I have purchased from them a few times and the products are very high quality and reasonably priced.
They sell some imported items but are up front and honest by clearly advertising them as imported.
We need more businesses like them and I encourage other riders to check them out.
you can buy US products that are better quality and cheaper...
i got my Fox Creek jacket about 2 weeks ago and the quality can not be beat.
the jackets Harley sells are not even close, and they cost more...
when you factor in the lifetime warranty and the unmatched customer service, it is a no brainer...
one of my buddies has a Schott jacket that was much more expensive and is no better made or fitted than the Fox Creek jacket.
i go out of my way to buy American.
at some point these corporate pea brains are going to realize that people need jobs to buy their products.
i doubt there are many Harleys parked in the factory lots in China...

I don't buy their cheap Chinese accessories, I make my own and now I am starting to sell them as well. All made in the USA from 6061 T6 aluminum that also was made in the USA.