Well, as promised I drove up to Koln (Cologne as the Americans know it) to check out the XR1200 Prototype.

But first let me tell you what happened this morning. Our good buddy Frapper shows up at my house to pick me up and I did not hear him becuase of his girly-man knock. I heard Boomer barking but figured it was nothing. Then Frapper finally rings the doorbell. I go downstairs and let him in. I was like, Yo Frap you ready to go! He says, Dang man, I knocked, didn't you hear me? So I say, No, you need to firm up your wrist a little bit more the next time you knock on my door!

So he comes in the house (he has been bragging all week about his Mercedes and how nice it rides on the Autobahn) and we go upstairs. Then he says....umm Bert...I don't think I can go with you. I'm like WTF!!! You know my Dodge is in the shop so I have no car to get to Koln. Why can't you go? He says....(now get this)..."I'm S-S-S-Scared" So I am thinking, oh here we go, you never can trust a Field Grade Officer, us NCOs have always got to hold their hand! So I ask him, "What are you scared of"? He says, "I am afraid to meet Erik Buell and Bill Davidson...maybe they will think I am just a big gulloot" So I say..."Of course they will think that...YOU ARE A GULOOT" Then Le Frap begins to cry a bit...you know..the kind of crying where the bottom lip starts to tremble a bit and his eyes started to water up. I say to Frap, "Ah come on man, it ain't that bad"...but he is bawling like a baby now (I was so glad the kids were asleep and Schnucki had already left for work and did not have to see this). "Tell you what Frap, you give me the Merc, I'll drive you home, and I will go to the Intermot and when I come back I will bring you some nice presents!" Frap's eyes lit up and he says, "You PROMISE!!. I say, "Sure 'ol buddy, 'ol pal! What are friends for! So I drove him home and he is telling me all about he Merc, how to do this and how to do that. He tells me, "Sometimes the key does not come out so you have to turn it back on, turn it off, turn the bezel a bit to the left, jiggle the key and it will come out". I'm like "Dang, and this is suppose to be a Luxury car???" Well I found out what was wrong with the key not coming out and will tell you aobut that later. But now on to the XR1200.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE14.JPG

So I get to Intermot and finally find the HD area which was WAY in the back. I turn the corner and low and behold (insert Hallelujah chorus here) I see the XR1200 high up on a platform (SCWWWWWINNNNNGGGGGGG!!!!!!!)

I walk up to the platform and my knees are trembling, my mouth is watering and my jeans are bulgin....um nevermind.

And there it is:

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE48.JPG

Right next to his older brother!

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/xr7501.jpg

I fall to my knees right in front of the pedestal screaming "I AM NOT WORTHY, I AM NOT WORTHY!!! And then I passed out.

The next thing I remember is a lovely face looking down at me and what appreared to be halo surrounding the head of what I thought was an angle standing next to the XR1200! I slowly stutter out..."Am...Am...Am I....Am I in Heaven??!! And the loverly face looks at me and says......Ich kann dich nicht verstehen....bitte Deutsch sprechen (I can not understand you please speak German). For just a split second I thought, "Man this really sucks, they only speak German in Heaven!" But then I realized where I was at and slowly got up. People were starring at me like crazy and I say, "What!!, you ain't seens an American before!! Take a freakin' photo...it lasts longer!!

Then I asked. Can I please meet Erik Buell and Bill Davidson? The staff looked at me sadly and said, "Sorry, they were only here on Tuesday and Wednesday". I thought to myself, oh well, at least THREE XR1200s are here!! The staff person then said, "It seems like you are really interested in the XR1200 prototype, we are sorry that you missed Erik Buell and Bill Davidson but just wait here...I might have something that will make you feel better. I waited 5...10....15 minutes and the lovely staff lady came back. She whispers, "Now keep this to yourself and DO NOT TELL ANYONE that we gave you this!" I look down and she puts in my hand a XR1200 Press Packet (more on this later, I have not had a chance to look through it yet!). I grab her and plant a big old kiss on her lips!!!!






Then she slaped me.

So after all the craziness I finally got around to checking out this AWESOME XR1200!!!!

I was told the the frame on the XR1200 is completely redesigned and one of the unique items is this:

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE65.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE66.JPG

What are you looking at??? Well, since the XR1200 does not have a Hamcan air filter it can not breath out of the normal breather holes on the side of heads. The photos above show where the breather hoses are located. The are bolted onto the top of the rockerboxes on the sparkplug side.

Oh yeah...remember what I told about what Frapper told me about...the problem with his car key not coming out after turning off the car...I figured out that the key will not come out when the brake is applied!!! I made Frapper pay me $50.00 after I gave him the solution!! :laugh :laugh

You wanna see the left side???? Ok!

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE01.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE23.JPG

When I saw the first photos on the Internet I thought the ram air was on both sides of the bike. As you can see, there is no ram air opening on the left side. But as you will also notice there is an oil cooler.

Here is the front end:

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE02.JPG

The forks are Showa and you can see the ram air scoop under the tanks. The tank by the way is much larger than the normal peanut tank. It holds 14.5 liters of fuel.

If you get one of these bikes please take off those fugly orange reflectors the moment you get her home!

Here is the aluminum swing arm. The brakes, front and rear are Nissin.

The tires are Dunlop Qualifier. This bike is built for the twisties!!!

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE03.JPG

Close up of the left side of the motor and the oil cooler. Check out the front tank mount...pretty hefty huh??

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE04.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE09.JPG

Dual brakes up front so we can do stoppies like the Zoom-splat riders!!!

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE05.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE06.JPG

Tank has a unique shape as mentioned earlier.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE07.JPG

The main guage is the tachometer. Next to it is the electronic speedometer! Red Line.....7000 RPM!

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE08.JPG

A fat ass has always turned me on!

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE10.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE26.JPG

Close up of the right side of the motor and rear controls.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE13.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE11.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE19.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE63.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE64.JPG

Fat ass in the back and skinny up front!

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE12.JPG

Close up of active air intake and tank.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE16.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE17.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE15.JPG

I sure hope that this seat is ONLY on the prototype. You would not want to ride on this seat very far and it is the only negative thing I could find about the XR1200.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE18.JPG

Dang is that a SEXY photo!!

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE21.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE22.JPG

Active air intake

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE40.JPG

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE41.JPG

Close up of the secondary drive.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE50.JPG

If you want to order the exhaust for your Sporty, here is the part number!!! 64659-07

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE51.JPG

Under the rear end.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE52.JPG

The rest of the photos can be found here: http://xlforum.net/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/727

This thread is now open for discussion.

SWEET!

Just when i had convinced myself i didnt need it, you had to go and do this...

I love the dichotomy of this pic! :D:D:D

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE41.JPG

Okay, Bert many of my questions have been answered by closer studying of your excellent and well thought out pics! Pics by an enthusiast for an enthusiast!

Got any specs yet?

Rear shock height?

Lean angle?

Is that a 180 rear?

Is that a Buell belt?

Projected release dates?

Target price?

Is Frapper okay? Ole will be worried. ;)

Get that pamplet out that they gave you and find us the weight. Also, is the black piece on the right side of the engine with all the tubes and hoses going into it a catch can?

Answers to the questions in the first Intermot thread.

My answers are from what I got from the marketing representative and the technical representative.

1. Will the bike be produced? Not yet known, but VERY likely.
2. If it is produced will it be a limited or full production bike. Full!!
3. How much does it weigh? It will weigh between 250 and 270 KG
4. Rev limit?? 7000 RPM
5. Has lean angle changed? The frame is completely new and the lean angle is better.
6. Will there be a chrome wheels or black exhaust? No chrome wheels, black exhaust...not planned at this time.
7. Will and when is is coming to the USA???!!!!! If the XR1200 makes it into production will will be first offered in Europe and then will "probably" come to the USA.

where do those breather hoses connect to?
are they dual plug heads?
hows the rider position? could you see doin 120+mph on it?

Is that a 180 rear?

Is that a Buell belt?

Projected release dates?

Target price?



Yes, Yes, unknown, unknown.

it the gass tank steel? looks plastic

551.25 to 595.35 LB's... kind of a disappointment there.
My 06 is 557... i was expecting this to be a lighter bike, although it does have more power, larger tires, better brakes, and a better lean angle, i guess i can deal with the weight...

where do those breather hoses connect to?
are they dual plug heads?
hows the rider position? could you see doin 120+mph on it?

The breather hoses I believe go into the active air filter as in all other Sportsters but I could not find where they came out and did not ask.

Single plugs

The position is comfortable and I could see going 130+ on it!

it the gass tank steel? looks plastic

From what could tell it is steel but I will check in the press packet and see if there is more info.

Bert....as always YOU DA MAN!!!!!!

I was NOT a fan of this bike, but your excellent photos have made it really grow on me....

I take back every negative thing I've said about this bike.....

:o

:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

551.25 to 595.35 LB's... kind of a disappointment there.

Same reaction here. What in the world did they put on it to make it weigh that much?! A 04 roadster is around 575 lbs wet. If they had to have it that heavy, then might as well just put in a 103hp buell engine in there instead of the 85-90 hp engine.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE65.JPG
what is the other hose?

Bert....as always YOU DA MAN!!!!!!

I was NOT a fan of this bike, but your excellent photos have made it really grow on me....


Ditto. I still prefer my 1200R for it's all-around goodness, but that looks like a really fun bike.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE65.JPG
what is the other hose?

Comparing the two pics...
http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE66.JPG

And considering the plug wire is on the far side in the pics, I'm guessing that second tube is on the rear head only. Sensor?

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE65.JPG
what is the other hose?

Engine Temprature Sensor. Remember this is an EFI bike. All 2007 bikes have this.

Engine Temprature Sensor. Remember this is an EFI bike. All 2007 bikes have this.


Hey I got one right. I better stop now before I blow my record. :D

I like it a lot better in your pics. Nice piece of photo journalism. Now if you could only spell "luxury". I think I like it. Still like mine better but that is personal. Is it really 100 pounds more than my bike. Where do the hide the weight. Is the frame solid?????lol

last question from me
you look good on the bike, just from riding position does it have a compact feel like something sporty or are you fully aware its a large bike. i know its bolted down and cant feel the weight but just rider position does it feel small?
thanks for the pkotos and info Bert, you done reel good

The weight is quite a bit high. My '01 Custom was 476 dry. Drop a hundred lbs. and it would be one mean suprise for the sewing machine boys.

The weight is quite a bit high. My '01 Custom was 476 dry. Drop a hundred lbs. and it would be one mean suprise for the sewing machine boys.

I dont really think it should be compared weight wise to the solid mounts, But i was expecting about a 25 pound shave.

Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like quite a bit of rear sag with Bert on it. So I'm guessing HD didn't make any break throughs on their suspension.

Ok, here is some good stuff for you. When you read these documents you will see that the XR1200 is being built with Europeans in mind. The V-ROD is a much greater success in Europe than in the USA and it looks like HD is betting on the same thing here.

Americans are BT riders. They like their traditional Harleys. Europeans like Sport Bikes. This in no way means that the XR1200 will only be sold in Europe but it may be only available in Europe at first.

XL Forum EXCLUSIVE!

Cad photos

Induction

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Induction.jpg

Swingarm

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Swingarm.jpg

Fuel Tank

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Fuel_Tank.jpg

Foot Controls

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Foot_Controls.jpg

Engine

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Engine1.jpg

Airbox

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Airbox.jpg

Ok, here is some good stuff for you. When you read these documents you will see that the XR1200 is being built with Europeans in mind. The V-ROD is a much greater success in Europe than in the USA and it looks like HD is betting on the same thing here.

Americans are BT riders. They like their traditional Harleys. Europeans like Sport Bikes. This in no way means that the XR1200 will only be sold in Europe but it may be only available in Europe at first.

One things for sure, those releases confirm a lot of the theories we were throwing around on the other threads.

Thanks, Bert!!! Great job on the photos and stuff.

BW

Am I the only person to think those exhausts look truely hideous from the rear.
They stick out way too far and the offset outlet holes look weird.
Still if the bike goes into production I guess the after market pipes won't be far behind :-)

Am I the only person to think those exhausts look truely hideous from the rear.
They stick out way too far and the offset outlet holes look weird.
Still if the bike goes into production I guess the after market pipes won't be far behind :-)

Keep in mind also that is a Eurpean model. Much stricter emissions controls than even we have. Well, except California. :rolleyes:

Get that pamplet out that they gave you and find us the weight. Also, is the black piece on the right side of the engine with all the tubes and hoses going into it a catch can?

No, that just covers the EFI intake.

last question from me
you look good on the bike, just from riding position does it have a compact feel like something sporty or are you fully aware its a large bike. i know its bolted down and cant feel the weight but just rider position does it feel small?
thanks for the pkotos and info Bert, you done reel good

Hard to tell. With it bolted down it felt kinda like sitting on a rocking horse outside of Walmart. :smoke

Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like quite a bit of rear sag with Bert on it. So I'm guessing HD didn't make any break throughs on their suspension.

Are you trying to tell me something!!!!???? :doh

Are you trying to tell me something!!!!???? :doh

:laugh

Nothing more than an observation on the bike's rear suspension. How much suspension is in your rear is your problem. :D:D:D

:laugh

Nothing more than an observation on the bike's rear suspension. How much suspension is in your rear is your problem. :D:D:D
:roflblack :roflblack

I dunno, we may need a pic of when you get your 1200C delivered, i just hope it doesnt sag TOO much :p

In all seriousness, do you folks realize what a scoop this is?

It'll be one or two months before the mags can put out any information of substance and there is no way they can devote that much space to this bike to encompass this kind of coverage.

I mean Bert took pics of all the tidbits and many angles AND with CAD drawings.

That's a pretty big deal boys and girls. Some pretty big hitters in the bike media world work pretty damn hard for this stuff.

Well done Bert. :tour

Great pics and report. Is everyone going to the HD XR1200 site where you can vote on this bike?

I definitely voted against the exhaust. Our local shop guy says they look like they were taken straight from the VRod. Seems to me we would be better off with XR style exhaust.

Excellent work Bert! :clap :banana :clap


Bart

In all seriousness, do you folks realize what a scoop this is?

It'll be one or two months before the mags can put out any information of substance and there is no way they can devote that much space to this bike to encompass this kind of coverage.

I mean Bert took pics of all the tidbits and many angles AND with CAD drawings.

That's a pretty big deal boys and girls. Some pretty big hitters in the bike media world work pretty damn hard for this stuff.

Well done Bert. :tour

All the more reason to be a member of this great forum, XLF ROCKS!!!

hey Bert, this might sound crazy but is there any way you could schedule with HD a pre release test ride for the xr1200? i mean come on. it makes sence that the premier sportster forum should get the first hand info on this bike.

hey Bert, this might sound crazy but is there any way you could schedule with HD a pre release test ride for the xr1200? i mean come on. it makes sence that the premier sportster forum should get the first hand info on this bike.

Lagers got a great idea!!! i mean, comon, why WOULDN'T they want ya to ride it :D

Lagers got a great idea!!! i mean, comon, why WOULDN'T they want ya to ride it :D


not to mention the name of a car forum i frequent, they get to test drive the new vw's before they come out.
HD, are you reading this? who better to get a real ride and report than Bert Linson...can i be second?

Second!

ALL HAIL BERT HE WHO RIDES THE XR1200 :p

Hmmm, bike with designs that may open the Sportster market to Europeans . . . Bert is in Europe . . . hmmmmmm . . test ride on the Autostrada . . . :yikes

Wishfull thinking but I doubt that it would happen.

Wishfull thinking but I doubt that it would happen.

I dunno... :dunno

This IS...(and no disrespect to the other Sportster forums), the PREMIER Sportster internet site....

A little PR work, and it COULD happen!!! Especially because you ARE in Europe....

I daresay a test ride and report would do a great deal for sales, both in Europe AND in the US (Not to mention Oz... :) )

I think you should follow-up on this possibility...

I have NOTHING in terms of weight with HD, but I'll sure run this up the flagpole from MY shop.....

Wishfull thinking but I doubt that it would happen.

i dont see why. you are local and run this place. it would make sence for you to put your stamp of approval on this bike.

I am grateful that some of you feel this way and it would be quite an honor to get to test ride this bike but I don't think HD needs or wants me.

They already have big name riders that know how to push this bike to its full potential and then some.

Oohhhhh I like it... I like it a lot...

I don't think HD needs or wants me.

They already have big name riders that know how to push this bike to its full potential and then some.


big name riders who will say anything they are paid to say.

big name riders who will say anything they are paid to say.

Bingo...

But if they think you'll like it, then they may let you ride it, if theyre unsure of the bike at the moment, then they surely wont.

Nice job Bert! Sure looks neat. What do you think that wierd little Z shaped black brace is for on the rear rocker cover? It runs from the induction area to the rear of the cover. The tank is obviously plastic with a cover like an X-1.Too bad about the weight.

Bingo...

But if they think you'll like it, then they may let you ride it, if theyre unsure of the bike at the moment, then they surely wont.


another bingo

nice photos! contentment is slipping fast......is that black thingy on the rear head to keep your knee off it?

nice photos! contentment is slipping fast......is that black thingy on the rear head to keep your knee off it?

No, your knee is nowhere near there, i believe its another EFI doohickey.

It has been said already, but great job Bert!

What a scoop...:clap

Keep in mind also that is a Eurpean model. Much stricter emissions controls than even we have. Well, except California. :rolleyes:
Is that right? I didn't know that. In what way?

Is that right? I didn't know that. In what way?

Don't know the specifics on that, as in actual numbers and stuff but there are essentially three versions of Harley's sold.

49 State Legal
California Emissions
European Emissions

The last two may be the same.

If you look in the FSM you'll see all kinds of exceptions for California models.

Just noticed you're in the UK Folkie, we in the states have very strict emissions standards that are getting unjustifiably worse all the time. But bikes have largely been less governed that other vehicles. Of course, that all began to change in '07 and will again get worse in '10.

But I don't want to get folks wound up about that on this thread. :D

not sure about emissions from vehicles. ive heard about stricter quality of fuel. low sulfer levels and such.

If you want to order the exhaust for your Sporty, here is the part number!!! 64659-07

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE51.JPG
Don't know if anyone noticed, but would a Euro market silencer have "EPA" and "federal" on it? Maybe they already have plans for the US market.:)

Don't know if anyone noticed, but would a Euro market silencer have "EPA" and "federal" on it? Maybe they already have plans for the US market.:)

Good catch.

And while I have no doubt the bike will see it to the States, I'm guessing that the pipes are going to be sold in the states through HD for current Sporty owners so they have to meet EPA.

i cant beleive so many ppl still have doubts as to whether this machine will be built or be sold in the US market.

what ? you think they give part numbers to prototype bits?

and..."oh no, sir, you can't buy this American bike in the USA"

come on...

must say I am amazed what a porker it is though...my FXDL only weighs a little more....very dissapointing.

mind you there must be 40 pounds of baffles in that hideous muffler system...

ok I'm off to HD's site to vote on my dislike of the finishes now I've seen some of them more closely...

oh yeah, top job on the report mate, must be a few motorcycle publications that wish they got this scoop.

Don't know the specifics on that, as in actual numbers and stuff but there are essentially three versions of Harley's sold.

49 State Legal
California Emissions
European Emissions

The last two may be the same.
The last two are definitely not the same (none of that evap can cr@p on the Euro models). I'm just surprised if the Euro emission restrictions are tighter than the 49 States, because it's a commonly held belief over here (which doesn't make it right of course!) that the difference is the other way around.

The last two are definitely not the same (none of that evap can cr@p on the Euro models). I'm just surprised if the Euro emission restrictions are tighter than the 49 States, because it's a commonly held belief over here (which doesn't make it right of course!) that the difference is the other way around.

Well it could be that I'm completely mistaken Folkie. Sure wouldn't be the first time. :D

Maybe when I was seeing exceptions for European models it had nothing to do with emissions and I was just making the dreaded mistake of assuming.

Interesting question actually.

Bert, this is simply A-M-A-Z-I-N-G...

Thank you for taking the time to share all of this information with the rest of us!

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/clarinetcat1/Funny%20Photos/wearenotworthy.jpg

Thanks Bert the shots with you on the bike really give us a better concept of the size and styling of the bike.

I'm shooting an email to the HD design engineer I met at work to see if they'll let you ride it. Don't know if he can do anything, but it never hurts to ask.

If the American Icon that is Harley Davidson dares to release a model in Europe only it would be a Public Relations disaster here in the US.

HD, don't even think about it. It MUST be available on OUR side of the Atlantic as well.







And to you Bert, thanks much and congratulations. What a great scoop for the XLForum.:clap

Joining the chorus:

Job (very) well done, Bert!

Thanks!

Kim

Don't know if anyone noticed, but would a Euro market silencer have "EPA" and "federal" on it? Maybe they already have plans for the US market.:)
Ah, now that's interesting. Yes, probably. My UK 883 Sportster's mufflers have exactly the same wording on (diff #, obviously). Although that muffler (65232-04) is used on a US model: front muffler on a Cali model.

But, the point is that it also has (above the wording in the pic) 'HDI 12-6C' and an 'e' symbol (big e and little 4 inside a square). 'e' symbols show compliance with EU directives , in this case: Directive 97/24/EC, Chapter 9. And the exhaust in the pic doesn't appear to have one.

My guess is that all Harley exhausts have the 'This Harley-Davidson Exhaust ... May Violate Federal Law' wording, and extra bits required in other markets (like 'e' symbols) are added when needed. So what does this mean? Maybe nothing. Maybe the 'e' symbol is on the exhaust, just out of Bert's shot. There looks to be something to the right of the familiar wording, right at the edge of the picture. Could be the start of 'HDI ...'.

OK, it is there. I've just looked again at this pic:

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE50.JPG

To the right of the wording it's got the part # again, and underneath that HDI, something I can't read, then the 'e' symbol.

So what does that mean? It probably means they've already obtained European type approval for the exhaust, and possibly the bike.

I just love that boxed aluminum swingarm and the 180 tire looks hot enough to make my jeans tight.:laugh :banana




Industry News

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Additional Articles
H-D Prototype Debuts At INTERMOT


H-D revealed a prototype Sportster XR 1200 motorcycle for the European market at INTERMOT.
October 11, 2006

Milwaukee, WI - Harley-Davidson revealed a prototype Sportster XR 1200 motorcycle aimed at the European market today at the INTERMOT International Motorcycle Show in Cologne, Germany. The XR 1200 prototype places an emphasis on performance and handling with styling inspired by the Motor Company’s legendary XR 750 dirt track racer.
Created with the demands of the European market in mind, the XR 1200 prototype’s development goals include a powerful air-cooled V-Twin engine, agile handling, and high performance suspension and brakes.

“As Harley-Davidson seeks to further grow its presence and sales in Europe, INTERMOT and subsequent major European events will be used to carefully evaluate media and public reaction to the XR 1200 prototype,” said John Russell, Vice President, Harley-Davidson Europe. “If the prototype is well received, we hope to bring the XR 1200 to Europe in 2007.”

The Sportster XR 1200 Prototype features:

· XR 750-inspired styling
· 1200cc air-cooled V-Twin with downdraft fuel injection (85-90 HP target)
· Specially tuned Showa suspension with 43mm inverted front forks
· High performance four-piston caliper Nissin brakes
· Unique lightweight cast wheels with dirt track-inspired design
· Specially developed Dunlop Qualifier tires:
Front 120/70ZR18
Rear 180/55ZR17

My guess its that it'll come over 95% of what we see here, but with a few more chrome bits and a "standard" 2-1 system like the early 883R's. Maybe a different seat.

That swingarm and 180 tire are nice

I wonder if that redesigned cam cover is to keep things quieter. Doubt its just for looks.

My question - why are we not at Buell level HP with this thing?

The weight of the bike is a HUGE dissapointment. Basically what you have is a bike that is no faster than a '04 or later 1200 Stage I.

The weight of the bike is a HUGE dissapointment. Basically what you have is a bike that is no faster than a '04 or later 1200 Stage I.

i must disagree. ok its heavy, but its gonna be faster. 85-90hp + 75 ftlbs is more than an 04 with stage one and the handling is surely better. keep in mind most harleys are too fast as it is based on the brakes cannot stop them. what harley is putting together is a bike with balanced performance.

Nice job, Bert!

I logged on to see if I could find more information on this bike and to say there was some info here would be a gross understatement. You have already been to the show and posted a slew of pictures and a mother-lode of information. Scooped all the cycle rags in the process. My hat is off to you sir....

55Bear

I was on the fence before but after seeing these pics and learning more about the bike, I will seriously consider one.

Thanks Bert!

Hopefully someone from HD is reading this thread and grants you a test ride. :clap

Thanks for the great pics Bert. You got to sit on it.

If it was me I wouldn't wash my backside for a week,
on second thought ... :frownthre

Thanks Bert!

I just wish H-D would have found some other place to put that ugly oil cooler.

I just wish H-D would have found some other place to put that ugly oil cooler.

probably placed in that location cause it worked best and kept it simple. its just hoses so it can be rerouted to a more asthetically appealing location(werds)

What do you think that wierd little Z shaped black brace is for on the rear rocker cover?

i supports the valve cover gaskets so it wont leak like the 04's and up:doh

hey gronk, any fix yet on these mufflers?
http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE10.JPG

First of all, great job Bert, I WANT ONE :banana

Now, I really wonder about that weight number. Its pretty much the stock number on an unmodified current XL. HD has removed/modified and replaced almost all the same bits as the Storz model, which comes in in the mid 480s, and in fact used some lighter components than Storz, namely the Aluminum Swingarm and the Rotomolded plastic intake vs a Side draft Mikuni. The tank would appear to be Rotomolded as well.

Think folks. While I believe this is essentialy a production bike, there are some details to be finalized. Moreover with so many parts clearly from a production set up, I suspect these bikes were assembled just prior to shipping to Europe. I have no doubt the foundry set up for the new cam cover caused most of the delay. With no final numbers on hand, it would not be the first time a office bound copy writer simply used existing production weight numbers for a last minute press hand out.

I still think this bike will come in under 500 lbs.

What do you think that wierd little Z shaped black brace is for on the rear rocker cover? It runs from the induction area to the rear of the cover.

Seemed to be just some kind of bar for protection.

It makes sense now that you say that. Keep the knee puck offa the rear rocker. MA1, you ake a very good point there. I sure hope it isn't a lead turd. 500lbs would be pretty good.

hey gronk, any fix yet on these mufflers?
http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/medium/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE10.JPG
I would seriously doubt they'd need any. The are friggin' huge so I would assume they'll flow really well AND keep the racket down (a bit too quiet though)

Wishfull thinking but I doubt that it would happen.


Bert, all bike and car manufacturers place a rather large number of the new vehicles they produce into a press fleet.

They are available, for the asking, AS LONG as you have some sort of way to back up the request.

If you are on a magazine (or book) staff, you can normally request anything you want (I did for YEARS at Chilton, and enjoyed many a week long free ride on the bike of my choice when I was working on the Chilton Motorcycle Handbook).

If you haven't already, make yourself up some business cards and letterhead. If you have the press kit, then you've already got some media contact info.

Make a phone call to one of the media contacts and ask them "who schedules the press fleet and when do they anticipate having an XR1200 available" also add that "you'd like to do a piece comparing/contrasting it to the current 1200R, and you'd like to schedule press time for both of them"

They'll ask you about who you are/work for, and you can explain that you're the "lead editor" or something like that for the XLforums a web-based moto-journalist news sight devoted to the Harley Sportster with an daily readership of (insert impressive number here) and more than X current members (insert impressive number here, don't be afraid to estimate on the high side).

You may have to make sure that your current insurance policy will cover rental/loaner bikes, but my personal agent here in the US took up the slack for me with no hassle when the company policy wanted to exclude bikes (we already had coverage for press cars/trucks).

Email me if you have any questions, but it shouldn't be a problem.

The key is simply act nonchalant about it, like you expect it and do it all the time.

Kev

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and the weight is a HUGE HUGE HUGE disappointment for me personally.

I'm still very excited about it, and may very well buy one the second they are available in the US, but I'm worried that if she's tall enough and top heavy enough Jenn might not like/want to ride it too. :(

i must disagree. ok its heavy, but its gonna be faster. 85-90hp + 75 ftlbs is more than an 04 with stage one and the handling is surely better. keep in mind most harleys are too fast as it is based on the brakes cannot stop them. what harley is putting together is a bike with balanced performance.


Plus there is likely a little more hp to get out of tuning... maybe not as much as a typical stage I, but even the Buellie guys get more out of their rides right?

Think folks. While I believe this is essentialy a production bike, there are some details to be finalized. Moreover with so many parts clearly from a production set up, I suspect these bikes were assembled just prior to shipping to Europe. I have no doubt the foundry set up for the new cam cover caused most of the delay. With no final numbers on hand, it would not be the first time a office bound copy writer simply used existing production weight numbers for a last minute press hand out.

I still think this bike will come in under 500 lbs.


Man, and I thought I was an optimist.

Well, what the heck, I can hold out a SMIDGE of hope on that one...

Add me to the list of people who think that 500+ lbs is too much weight for a production hot rod motorsickle.

I need to weigh my cafe bike and see how much of a pig it is.

yup... I think it's too heavy too

BUT

I don't think it's a SERIOUS attempt at a sports type bike from HD anyway...


It's more of a form over function bike....


Then again look at the origional XLCR ... wasn't exactly a brilliant bike anyway..

The 1200's that Jerry Branch had a go at were a better bike

Oh and Bert, GREAT JOB getting us the skinny!

yup... I think it's too heavy too

BUT

I don't think it's a SERIOUS attempt at a sports type bike from HD anyway...


It's more of a form over function bike....


Then again look at the origional XLCR ... wasn't exactly a brilliant bike anyway..



It's still a serious contender for my business.

But a lighter weight would have sinched the deal.

We'll see... we'll see

Don't you guys think that this motor will end up in all Sportsters? I don't see the MoCO just putting it in one model. And it does seem to be a style statement with the extra weight but it's a step in the right direction, thanks Bert.

An innnocent question sure to stir up a hornet's next. If HD riders weren't so plastiphobic, how much weight could this thing lose?

Well, if the figures floating around lately are to be believed (550 lbs +) there's probably 60-70 lbs of fat waiting to be trimmed. Doesn't require the use of plastic, either.

Easy places to lose weight to start with are probably the brakes & wheels. Wouldn't have thunk it, but at 550 lbs, there has to be some extra pork on those rims. The rear tire is heavy too. Single disc at the front will save some lbs.

Lose the belt drive, passenger pegs, go with a solo seat, lose the subframe and lic plate hanger, add a chain drive, lose the mirrors, signals, etc. Start in the front of the bike, and work your way back.

The aftermarket will provide.

great pics and excellent write-up.

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE49-edit1.jpg

What is this? and is that a piece of styrofoam to the left of said "thingy"?

I was trying to figure out that one myself Mike. I forgot to ask the tech at the show. Could be the fuse box.

It could be the backup alarm for when you put it in reverse gear.

Maybe a charge for the ejection seat? =)

Look in the Nov. issue of Cycle World, a BMW R 1200R air cooled opposed twin with a claimed 109hp and 85lbs of torque and a claimed dry weight of 437lbs. If BMW can do that with an air cooled oppesed twin with shaft drive why can't the MoCo give us a XR1200 with specs to match? I know plenty of guys that would pay more for that. And don't say we have the Buell, cause it's not the same.

Bert,

great job, awesome pictures, many thanks for the time you invested. I like it I like it alot and hope to see it on the road in full production soon. I have never been much for new any thing, however that XR looks sharp, nice of them to let ya sit on it. Thanks for sharing.

Harley

Ingreen - my first guess would have been some sort of EVAP canister, but I can't see any hoses going to it. Actually it looks like there is a wire going to it. Is that true Bert? What do you remember, if anything, attaching to that box under the bike?


Look in the Nov. issue of Cycle World, a BMW R 1200R air cooled opposed twin with a claimed 109hp and 85lbs of torque and a claimed dry weight of 437lbs. If BMW can do that with an air cooled oppesed twin with shaft drive why can't the MoCo give us a XR1200 with specs to match? I know plenty of guys that would pay more for that. And don't say we have the Buell, cause it's not the same.

You can't compare a dual-crankpin boxer motor and a shared crankpin 45degree V-twin, they're just different animals.

First step in making more power, would be to go with dual crankpins, but that's not about to happen.

Now the weight thing, I don't understand that as well, but cost of materials might be part of it.

Remember that BMW R1200R is going to START at $13k and I SURE AS HELL hope this XR1200 isn't going to start that high.

Then again, for a 437 lbs. version of it, I could certainly consider a couple grand more.

Kev

An innnocent question sure to stir up a hornet's next. If HD riders weren't so plastiphobic, how much weight could this thing lose?
And if it was all made of plastic like a Honda, would anyone buy it?

Actually it looks like there is a wire going to it. Is that true Bert? What do you remember, if anything, attaching to that box under the bike?

Yup there is a wire harness going into it. This bike in this photo was up pretty high on a pedestal so I was not able to see where it was going to.

Here is the full size photo http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE49.JPG

This may be standard on 07 models.

Can anyone with an 07 Sportster here look under their bike near the front of the swingarm and see if this bock is also there?

Yup there is a wire harness going into it. This bike in this photo was up pretty high on a pedestal so I was not able to see where it was going to.

Here is the full size photo http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE49.JPG

This may be standard on 07 models.

Can anyone with an 07 Sportster here look under their bike near the front of the swingarm and see if this bock is also there?

Whatever it is, it generates at least some heat to have those vent holes so maybe it is electrical. Hmmmm...

What's that plugged hose hanging down just in front of it? Hope they clean that up before production.

The more I look at it the more perplexed I am. Slits are an odd shape/size for heat disisipation. You don't spose it might be some kind of security deal do you? Maybe just mounted on the prototype bike?

Whatever it is, it generates at least some heat to have those vent holes so maybe it is electrical. Hmmmm...

What's that plugged hose hanging down just in front of it? Hope they clean that up before production.

Generates heat OR it could be something that requires ventilation. Again, an EVAP canister would have an air inlet, so that fresh air can be pulled through the charcoal canister to free the HCs and pull them through a vent hose to the intake where they could be burned.

The wire COULD be a purge solenoid, though why they'd put it remote like that I don't know, except to keep the engine and intake area cleaner (and not to take up space up top).

So it COULD be an EVAP canister.

In the big version of the photo when I zoom in I can see the rear brake line, and the brake switch, and the oil drain, and what someone asked about looking like styrofoam seems to be a cast aluminum surface but of WHAT I don't know,

The more I look at it the more perplexed I am. Slits are an odd shape/size for heat disisipation. You don't spose it might be some kind of security deal do you? Maybe just mounted on the prototype bike?

OOOH, like a shock-sensor along with a rather large audible alarm unit?

I was always told they put transmitter/locater devices on their demo bikes, but I never looked into what and where...

OOOH, like a shock-sensor along with a rather large audible alarm unit?

I was always told they put transmitter/locater devices on their demo bikes, but I never looked into what and where...

It certainly looks like an audio device.

I was thinking it might have something to do with a locator too. I don't know, wild theory maybe.

And I still want to know what the deal is with that hose...

And I still want to know what the deal is with that hose...


Which hose, the one from the rocker boxes?

Which hose, the one from the rocker boxes?

That plugged hose between the frame tubes and right in front of the black box we haven't figured out yet.

That plugged hose right in front of the black box we haven't figured out yet.


Oil tank drain hose man... at least that was my first ASSumption...

Oil tank drain hose man... at least that was my first ASSumption...

That is my guess too but you don't think they'll leave it like for production do ya? Hanging down there like that?

That is my guess too but you don't think they'll leave it like for production do ya? Hanging down there like that?


Why not, what's the harm?

I don't think anything is gonna snag it.

And the plugs typically would stay in, even without the clamp. With the clamp they're not going anywhere.

Yeah, with a little more hose they could bolt or clamp it to the frame, but why? Especially if this has that much more ground clearance in the first place.

:geek

ART IS LURKING... YO DUDE... was up!!!

Why not, what's the harm?

I don't think anything is gonna snag it.

And the plugs typically would stay in, even without the clamp. With the clamp they're not going anywhere.

Yeah, with a little more hose they could bolt or clamp it to the frame, but why? Especially if this has that much more ground clearance in the first place.

:geek

I don't know, maybe it's superstitious side but having the main artery hanging there like that gives me the willies.

If nothing else it looks "unfinished."

Excellent reportage on this bike, Bert. It appears you have scooped everyone.

As to the bike, it seems to be targeted at Europe. From the H-D web site:

“As Harley-Davidson seeks to further grow its presence and sales in Europe, INTERMOT and subsequent major European events will be used to carefully evaluate media and public reaction to the XR 1200 prototype,” said John Russell, Vice President, Harley-Davidson Europe. “If the prototype is well received, we hope to bring the XR 1200 to Europe in 2007.”

Frankly, I'd be surprised if they ever bring this bike to the States. Given the way H-D keeps fumbling with the Buell lineup (most dealers have stopped selling or supporting Buells), I don't think their dealers would want to, or know how to, sell it, and if they did manage to overcome their biases and learn, I doubt they could move enough units to make it pay off. This bike would definitely not appeal to the H-D customer base or the demographic Harleys generally appeal to, leaving H-D with the task of generating interest from a segment of the motorcycle-buying population that is usually not drawn to Harleys. And, if it comes in at a price point at the usual Harley level, it would be a tough sell—given the competition— for even the most talented marketing organization.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if they ever bring this bike to the States. Given the way H-D keeps fumbling with the Buell lineup (most dealers have stopped selling or supporting Buells), I don't think their dealers would want to, or know how to, sell it, and if they did manage to overcome their biases and learn, I doubt they could move enough units to make it pay off. This bike would definitely not appeal to the H-D customer base or the demographic Harleys generally appeal to, leaving H-D with the task of generating interest from a segment of the motorcycle-buying population that is usually not drawn to Harleys. And, if it comes in at a price point at the usual Harley level, it would be a tough sell—given the competition— for even the most talented marketing organization.


So you missed the two other 40 page or so threads on this subject, complete with a steady 65% of respondants (over 350 or so people in the poll so far) saying they LOVE it.

And the discussions regarding how unprecedented it would be for Harley to build and sell a model ONLY for the EU?

SO, make the tank a little longer, add a quarter fairing, and paint it black....

The new XLCR, anyone?

The "styrofoam" thing is the front of the swingarm.

The black slotted thing looks like ballast to me.

The "styrofoam" thing is the front of the swingarm.

:doh :doh :doh of course, that's exactly where one would expect to find such a thing...

The "styrofoam" thing is the front of the swingarm.

The black slotted thing looks like ballast to me.

Didn't know the swing arm was in question. Must have missed that.

As for the black deal, why do you say ballast Chris? You mean weight ballast? Why would it be slotted, plastic, and have a wire going into it? Unless you mean an electrical ballast. If so, for what?

:doh :doh :doh of course, that's exactly where one would expect to find such a thing...

You thought that was a piece of styrofoam?























:roflblack

Uh hum...I'm okay now.

You thought that was a piece of styrofoam?

:roflblack

Uh hum...I'm okay now.


Uhhh, noooooooooooooooo, someone else asked what the styrofoam looking thing was and I said that I didn't know, but it was obviously cast aluminum. Which is embarrising enough, cause I knew the dang swingarm was aluminum but my brain just wasn't connecting the dots when looking at the close up. :o :shhhh

ART IS LURKING... YO DUDE... was up!!!
:wonderlan

And if it was all made of plastic like a Honda, would anyone buy it?
Sure. Maybe some of the people that now buy Hondas, Suzukis, BMWs or Ducatis. As a matter of fact, any of those that buy bikes from just about any other manufacturer of MCs since they all use plastic to save weight on certain items. You think HD would refuse their money on principle? I'm not saying don't make the mostly metal Sportsters, but a Buell/Sportster hybrid might be an amazing bike to ride. Why should HD limit itslef to only certain kinds of bikes?

I mean, how much R&D money can you spend on new ways to chrome the swingarm?

As for the black deal, why do you say ballast Chris? You mean weight ballast? Why would it be slotted, plastic, and have a wire going into it? Unless you mean an electrical ballast. If so, for what?

I mean ballast as in "cast off ballast."

:wonderlan


There he is

:bananinj

Uhhh, noooooooooooooooo, someone else asked what the styrofoam looking thing was and I said that I didn't know, but it was obviously cast aluminum. Which is embarrising enough, cause I knew the dang swingarm was aluminum but my brain just wasn't connecting the dots when looking at the close up. :o :shhhh

Oh, yeah I can....





Wait.........














:o
:)
:D
:wonderlan
:laugh

:roflblack :roflblack :roflblack :roflblack :roflblack

Uh hum...okay, okay I'm better. Really. :D

I mean ballast as in "cast off ballast."

Sorry Chris, I'm thick and still not getting it....:dunno

So you missed the two other 40 page or so threads on this subject, complete with a steady 65% of respondants (over 350 or so people in the poll so far) saying they LOVE it.

And the discussions regarding how unprecedented it would be for Harley to build and sell a model ONLY for the EU?

Loving it is not the same as writing the check, and even if all 350 went for it, that would hardly constitute a sales success.

Anyway, I wasn't looking to start an argument, just voicing an opinion, which, the last time I checked, I was allowed to do on this forum. In fact, a lot of what I noted was based on comments that came straight from H-D, in the form of their press release, wherein all they talked about was the European market. Discussions here aside, it is not unprecedented for other manufacturers to make market-specific bikes. Why not H-D? It might make good business sense for them.

You might also note that H-D apparently has no plans for showing the prototype anywhere here in the US, or even talking about it here beyond the press release. In fact, if Bert had not gone to Intermot and done his fine job, we'd probably all still be guessing about a new Sportster model and waiting for some magazine sneak peek in a month or so. To me, that, in itself, says a lot about H-D's immediate intentions.

Don't you guys think that this motor will end up in all Sportsters? I don't see the MoCO just putting it in one model. And it does seem to be a style statement with the extra weight but it's a step in the right direction, thanks Bert.

My guess is that the only way this engine will end up in other models is with an exhaust system as huge as the one on this XR prototype. Look at the truck muffler on the Buells. The weight issue likely comes in part from this exhaust, maybe the inverted front end and the wider rear wheel.

Despite the weight, this bike represents an exciting change of direction for HD! BMW, however, needed 14 years to tackle the weight issue in the Boxer range, only now for 2007 delivering a competitive twin lineup.

I vote for a secret mission to secure us a XR1200, all we need to do is hire the group from Smith. give them a few hundred grand and then take turns riding the piss outta the thing!!!!

Loving it is not the same as writing the check, and even if all 350 went for it, that would hardly constitute a sales success.

Anyway, I wasn't looking to start an argument, just voicing an opinion, which, the last time I checked, I was allowed to do on this forum. In fact, a lot of what I noted was based on comments that came straight from H-D, in the form of their press release, wherein all they talked about was the European market. Discussions here aside, it is not unprecedented for other manufacturers to make market-specific bikes. Why not H-D? It might make good business sense for them.

You might also note that H-D apparently has no plans for showing the prototype anywhere here in the US, or even talking about it here beyond the press release. In fact, if Bert had not gone to Intermot and done his fine job, we'd probably all still be guessing about a new Sportster model and waiting for some magazine sneak peek in a month or so. To me, that, in itself, says a lot about H-D's immediate intentions.

Uhhhh, you really did miss these threads.

Don't get your feathers all ruffled about a disagreement.

I heard your opinion and stated that I think it is answered by the facts I mentioned, and the content of those two threads. Including the following arguments:

As for the poll on here, I REALIZE this is just a subset of the market and not a complete representative sample, however it must be encouraging that a steady 65% of people have stated that they LOVE IT. That is a hugely warm reception for a "less than traditional Harley model." Of course that doesn't translate into automatic sales, but it is very encouraging.

As for whether or not we will see it in the US if produced, well there is a very good chance we'll see it here. Aside from the one argument for POTENTIALLY pricing it out of our market, there has not been a single logical reason given why we might not see it. Alternately, there have been a dozen or so reasons given why we would see it. Including the fact that even the prototype already has mufflers with EPA certification compliance stamped on em.

As for Bert's great job, I agree he has given us some invaluable specs and pics, but we had the basics down from the press releases and reports from Rockets&Raptors, I'd hardly say we'd be guessing at much more than the weight ( :( ) and gas capacity (plus some other quite nice tid-bits). We had the basics of this model down a week ago.

Kev

Are you trying to tell me something!!!!???? :doh

You did say you like a fat ass. :D

Sam

Uhhh, noooooooooooooooo, someone else asked what the styrofoam looking thing was and I said that I didn't know, but it was obviously cast aluminum. Which is embarrising enough, cause I knew the dang swingarm was aluminum but my brain just wasn't connecting the dots when looking at the close up. :o :shhhh



It was me that started the whole Styrofoam thing,
I just couldnt tell what was going on in the picture, until Bert gave us a bigger copy of it to look at.

:geek :geek :geek :geek

It was me that started the whole Styrofoam thing,
I just couldnt tell what was going on in the picture, until Bert gave us a bigger copy of it to look at.

:geek :geek :geek :geek

No sweat Mike and sure didn't mean any offense. Just a good chance to rib Kev is all. :D

No sweat Mike and sure didn't mean any offense. Just a good chance to rib Kev is all. :D

You guys go after him over here too?
XL folk==>:buddies <==Art


:banadevi



Nice shot at me lurking right after a comment about ground clearance Kev BTW.
Also great pics of the XR.

Yup there is a wire harness going into it. This bike in this photo was up pretty high on a pedestal so I was not able to see where it was going to.

Here is the full size photo http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/727/20061015-XR1200-PROTOTPYE49.JPG

This may be standard on 07 models.

Can anyone with an 07 Sportster here look under their bike near the front of the swingarm and see if this bock is also there?

Whatever it is maybe it weighs about 100 pounds and you can just remove it when you buy the bike.
or
maybe it works in conjunction with that hanging oil hose as some kind of auto oil leaker. That is part of the Harley mystic that everyone has come to love and I'm sure the Europeans will demand to have their bike do it also. :smoke

Sam

You guys go after him over here too?
XL folk==>:buddies <==Art


:banadevi



Nice shot at me lurking right after a comment about ground clearance Kev BTW.
Also great pics of the XR.

He brings it on himself. ;)

great write up bert
and fantastic pic's

cheers
crackers

I may be something of an optimist, but as an owner of an 05 XL1200R there is a lot of things I DON'T see on this bike:

-Wheels- The stock units are gone, and every wheel of that configuration that I've seen has been at least 10 lbs lighter than the HD units. Even if they are not, thats the first thing we pitch ennyways . . .

-Steel front fender- gone, replaced with a plastic unit.

-Steel rear fender- gone.

-Steel rear fender supports, inner and outer- gone.

-Chrome fender support covers- gone.

-Steel exaust cantilever support and crossover tube- gone.

-Massive front and rear peg supports- gone, replaced with skeletonized brackets holding skeletonized rearsets. Foot brake linkage gone as well.

-Steel gas tank- gone, replaced with a rotomolded plastic unit with an aluminum cover.

-Steel ham can- gone.

-cast manifold- gone.

-Rear seat assy plastic, on a tapered skeletonized support structure.

-Aluminum swingarm, with lightning holes.

-inverted fork, industry wide these are lighter than conventional forks.

I look at this bike, and I see 50 lbs gone from my 560 lb 1200R. That puts it at 510. Now if there's 20 lbs there I can't see, and I think there is, that puts the bike at 490 lbs with an empty tank. This is an important number. Why? Because a Sportster Custom with the large tank comes in around 590 lbs fully fueled. This would be the 100 lb reduction HD sources let slip to Cycle World.

Is it fudged? By a large tankfull you bet. (Gasoline is 6 lbs to the gallon) But a 490 lb dry Sporty would make me ecstatic, cause that before I get a hold of it!

I just don't think the Numbers given to Bert make sense when we look at whats there, and more importantly, whats not there.

i must disagree. ok its heavy, but its gonna be faster. 85-90hp + 75 ftlbs is more than an 04 with stage one and the handling is surely better. keep in mind most harleys are too fast as it is based on the brakes cannot stop them. what harley is putting together is a bike with balanced performance.


Don't forget HD rates horsepower at the crank. If the bike is rated 85 HP, take away 15% for driveline friction, etc. You get 72 hp. Any rubbermount 1200 Stage I has low 70's horsepower. So the rear wheel horsepower is going to be the same. If it's 90 HP, then you'll come out with 76 rear wheel horsepower, still within Stage I parameters from what some dynos are showing here. The only real advantage the bike will have is a 7000 rpm rev limit, but you can also do that to a rubbermount.

No, this bike is another poser from HD. I'm betting the Europeans don't bite. They have a whole bunch more naked sports bikes to choose from with better HP numbers.

What HD needs to do, and I am betting my left nut they will do, is eventually put into production the Buell XBRR engine. It will probably show up in a Buell first, folowed by Sportsters in a couple yrs. 150 hp, detuned for the street....let's say it comes in at 120 hp? Minus 15% gives you 102 rear wheel HP. Now that is what a XR1200 should have.

You're correct that HD uses rear wheel HP figures rather than crank....


but there is no loss on a rear wheel figure because the losses are already taken out..


Buell figures on the other hand are crank figures which then need the percentage reduction for gearbox and driveline losses to give a rear wheel figure

Don't forget HD rates horsepower at the rear wheel. If the bike is rated 85 HP, take away 15% for driveline friction, etc. You get 72 hp. Any rubbermount 1200 Stage I has low 70's horsepower. So the rear wheel horsepower is going to be the same. If it's 90 HP, then you'll come out with 76 rear wheel horsepower, still within Stage I parameters from what some dynos are showing here. The only real advantage the bike will have is a 7000 rpm rev limit, but you can also do that to a rubbermount.
.


what? it has 85hp at the wheel and take away 15% for drivline loss??? umm i think you mean you add 15% to get crank hp. reread what you wrote blue. maybe you can explain this again better cause i aint following.

Another dissapointed with the weight, rear end, exhaust... and for me,
maybe too tall... Needs to be lowered ....
What about the sound of this engine? ...

Good report and pics, but for this... maybe is better a buell :smoke

You're correct that HD uses rear wheel HP figures rather than crank....


but there is no loss on a rear wheel figure because the losses are already taken out..


Buell figures on the other hand are crank figures which then need the percentage reduction for gearbox and driveline losses to give a rear wheel figure


My bad....HD rates their bikes at the CRANK. I am editing my post to reflect this.

what? it has 85hp at the wheel and take away 15% for drivline loss??? umm i think you mean you add 15% to get crank hp. reread what you wrote blue. maybe you can explain this again better cause i aint following.


My bad....HD rates HP at the CRANK. I edited my post to reflect that.

Ingreen - my first guess would have been some sort of EVAP canister, but I can't see any hoses going to it. Actually it looks like there is a wire going to it. Is that true Bert? What do you remember, if anything, attaching to that box under the bike?




You can't compare a dual-crankpin boxer motor and a shared crankpin 45degree V-twin, they're just different animals.

First step in making more power, would be to go with dual crankpins, but that's not about to happen.

Now the weight thing, I don't understand that as well, but cost of materials might be part of it.

Remember that BMW R1200R is going to START at $13k and I SURE AS HELL hope this XR1200 isn't going to start that high.

Then again, for a 437 lbs. version of it, I could certainly consider a couple grand more.

Kev
Your right about the nature of the motors but I would pay a few grand more to have a Sportster that light with the horsepower that might be had with this new motor.

My bad....HD rates HP at the CRANK. I edited my post to reflect that.


No .. HD rates at the rear wheel.....

but Buell is rated at the crank...


That's why the Buell S1 was rated at 101HP for high 80's RWHP engine..

No .. HD rates at the rear wheel.....

but Buell is rated at the crank...


That's why the Buell S1 was rated at 101HP for high 80's RWHP engine..

Since when does anybody rate at the rear wheel? Specs on the rubbermounts say 79 fts lbs of torque. That's at the crank and not the rear wheel.

You forget too that HDs, because of their chain primary and direct drive top gear, have less driveline loss than most. (Its true, the chain has lower friction losses than gears. And because it allows the transmission input shaft to rotate in the same direction as the crank and the rear wheel, no jack shaft is needed to reverse rotation. In 5th gear in particular there is virtualy no loss in the transmission.)

The average loss for an X motor to the rear wheel is 7-8%

I believe this bike will approach 80 RWHP. 10 more than my stage 1 1200R

Since when does anybody rate at the rear wheel? Specs on the rubbermounts say 79 fts lbs of torque. That's at the crank and not the rear wheel.


Hey CBAS5.....maybe you can share your HP and torque numbers from your dyno run at Illinois HD ? I know you have a Stage I 1200C. When we compare your numbers to HD website, we will be able to determine that HD figures are at the CRANK, not the rear wheel.

Hey CBAS5.....maybe you can share your HP and torque numbers from your dyno run at Illinois HD ? I know you have a Stage I 1200C. When we compare your numbers to HD website, we will be able to determine that HD figures are at the CRANK, not the rear wheel.

My chart is posted in the dyno section, but mine is probably not the best one to look at. The numbers on mine are low :( Either way all HD numbers are at the crank and if I remember right they said 85-90 hp at the crank for the XR1200. If it was me and I was going to make that bike that heavy, then I would have just popped in a 103 hp buell motor.

I also have to wonder: Are these crank numbers, or RWHP? Might HD be using RW numbers at Intermot? The torque number seems low for a crank figure, but would be just right for Rear Wheel.

i dont really care all that much about numbers as the xr is more balanced all around. the fact remains that even with the same power level, it will go into turns faster, come out of turns faster, has a more forward position and will stop faster. the xr1200 has hardware built for backroads.

btw, everything ive read so far is claiming 80-85 bhp not crank. some claim 85-90 do a google search. im just stating what i read.

Yeah, Buell rateded my '01 Cyclone at 91HP. And it will dyno all day at 80 stock. And again, MA1 makes pertinent observations about all the crap NOT on the bike compared to a current XL. No one has even mentioned the hideous cast iron paperweight that the rear master cylinder attaches to- gone in Bert's undercarriage photo. Ther are anumber of nice looking sport type components on that XR.

A rehash,but: stock 1200R curb weight appx. 580lbs. Now lets deduct only obvious items and be conservative: Wheels 20lbs, peg brackets and rear brake mount 8lbs, frame differences 8lbs, bodywork 10lbs, tires 5lbs. That's 51 lbs. There may be more, but these items are a slam-dunk. So that puts 'er at 529. Not bad figuring the very bulky exhaust might be replaced by a 20lb lighter unit,easy. Now we're at 509. Difficult to estimate is a number of detail parts. Could be a few more pounds in there. the frame could be lighter than my estimate. I have cut the fender supports off to make street trackers on pre-'04s and those steel castings weigh at least 8lbs.

Of course, I am only shooting from the hip here. But it's a reasonable observation. So,we could be at the psychologically pleasing 500 mark or below. I'm pretty well buggered regardless. I have owned 2 XLCRs, an XR-1000, an XR-750 and 2 Buells plus a buncha Sportsters. I almost wish the XR1200 weighed 800lbs. It would be easy not to want one then. Oh well, retirement is over rated anyway.:D

You guys go after him over here too?
XL folk==>:buddies <==Art


:banadevi



Nice shot at me lurking right after a comment about ground clearance Kev BTW.
Also great pics of the XR.


GOTWA meet ARt - -- Art meet GOTWA.... I have this funny feeling you two would get along.

:doh

I may be something of an optimist, but as an owner of an 05 XL1200R there is a lot of things I DON'T see on this bike:

-Wheels- The stock units are gone, and every wheel of that configuration that I've seen has been at least 10 lbs lighter than the HD units. Even if they are not, thats the first thing we pitch ennyways . . .

-Steel front fender- gone, replaced with a plastic unit.

-Steel rear fender- gone.

-Steel rear fender supports, inner and outer- gone.

-Chrome fender support covers- gone.

-Steel exaust cantilever support and crossover tube- gone.

-Massive front and rear peg supports- gone, replaced with skeletonized brackets holding skeletonized rearsets. Foot brake linkage gone as well.

-Steel gas tank- gone, replaced with a rotomolded plastic unit with an aluminum cover.

-Steel ham can- gone.

-cast manifold- gone.

-Rear seat assy plastic, on a tapered skeletonized support structure.

-Aluminum swingarm, with lightning holes.

-inverted fork, industry wide these are lighter than conventional forks.

I look at this bike, and I see 50 lbs gone from my 560 lb 1200R. That puts it at 510. Now if there's 20 lbs there I can't see, and I think there is, that puts the bike at 490 lbs with an empty tank. This is an important number. Why? Because a Sportster Custom with the large tank comes in around 590 lbs fully fueled. This would be the 100 lb reduction HD sources let slip to Cycle World.

Is it fudged? By a large tankfull you bet. (Gasoline is 6 lbs to the gallon) But a 490 lb dry Sporty would make me ecstatic, cause that before I get a hold of it!

I just don't think the Numbers given to Bert make sense when we look at whats there, and more importantly, whats not there.

Man, I'm totally with you, but time will tell!!!

I'm starting a savings account!

So this morning I was sitting down for my morning uhhh constitutional and I noticed the pile of magazines under the sink.

Hog tales, medical journals, and an old CycleWorld testing 12 naked hooligan bikes.

Ya know, 10 of them were water cooled.

And they all weighed about 450-500 lbs. dry.

Of course, power on MOST of them was more in the 100-120 hp range, but torque figures were typically lower, like 60-80 ft. lbs.

There were 2 air cooled models.

1. Buellysses - was 425 lbs (I coulda sworn they said it was more, but I have a Buell brochure on my desk). and hp/torque was like 80/70 or something like that.

2. Moto Guzzi Griso - was 500 lbs and hp/torque was like 70/60

The Buellyssess is the best-selling Buell ever and the Griso is poised to be the most loved Guzzi since the Ambos and Eldos. Certainly it is selling quite well by Guzzi standards.

And the prices, well the Buellysses is what? 11-12 ish? or is it 13?

The Griso is above 10k.

So there is definitely a market for the XR based on facts and figures.

The question in MY mind is how big a market, compared to the large numbers of Sportys sold for instance. Certainly it is smaller than that (especially since the Sporty bias tends to be towards C and L models, but still).

Kev

-inverted fork, industry wide these are lighter than conventional forks.

How can that be? I have both types of forks at my house. The 39mm Sportster forks are puny in size when compared with inverted ones.

GOTWA meet ARt - -- Art meet GOTWA.... I have this funny feeling you two would get along.

:doh

GOTWA a fan of the low and loud, a fan of sparing with Kev or both? :banadevi


As far as weight difference on inverted vs conventional forks...

I never had them side by side, but I don't think there was a noticeable difference on any of the MX bikes I owned.

As a larger diameter tube has greater resistance to flex, or bending, they can be made with thinner walls. Remember the greatest bending moment is at the fixed point farthest from the axel, ie the lower triple clamp. Its usualy 2 to 3 lbs lighter. Not much, but every little bit counts.

The main advantage of inverted forks is added stiffness (as it is the stiffer, longer sliders that are held in the top clamps) and lower unsprung weight, since the tubes are shorter, attached to the axle, and there aren't several ounces of oil and damping parts moving up and down with the wheel.

Howver, most of the specs I have show somewhat greater weight for inverted forks in a given nominal diameter.

There are no torsional forces acting on the tubes in your garden-variety forks, whether conventional or inverted. They are free to rotate insiode the slders.

there aren't several ounces of oil and damping parts moving up and down with the wheel.


Sure there are. The oil is still in the bottom of the leg and the dampening goodies still need to be in the oil.

One of the complaints of upside downs on dirt bikes was that because of the flex at the lower tripple clamp there was binding as they slid.

You're right. Minor hallucination going on as I wrote the above. The rest is true though. Weight is generally higher, though unsprung weight is lower.

The weight difference shouldn't be more than a half a pound or so.
Something that most people probably wouldn't even notice in everyday riding.

No argument there. I was thinking back to some previous posts where people were totalling up all the weight savings they "saw."

Great write up - great pics! :clap :clap :clap

I still hate it. :frownthre

Great write up - great pics! :clap :clap :clap

I still hate it. :frownthre
Heresy I say!:D

My mistake in using torsional. Bending moment or flex would be appropriate. Stortz saved weight in using an inverted fork over the standard Sporster 39mm unit. Which may just indicate how heavy that standard fork is in this particular application.

Great job Bert. I wants one.

Wow...wow...wow...:banana

Its funny though.. they say its a 'prototype'.. No way.. this is a 'pre-production' prototypes don't have such a finished mass production look..

I sooo want this bike... Went to my local dealer, offered a deposit 'no, the only special edition is an XL50'.. 'Not an XL, its an XR'.. 'no such thing'.. sigh...

But.. the pipes are a bit.. meh.. those tiny exit holes inside the bigger outer look naff.. And pillion seat.. no way, NEEDS a single seat!

Yeah I agree the mufflers look like hell but when I get mine I will be replacing them anyways. Who has stock pipes on their bike anyways. A lot of people don't like the fact that the exhaust is chrome but when I get mine I will wrap the pipes except for a little where they come out of the head. I think it will look great with black header wrap.
I was planning on buying a 04 up 883R and chopping it up but after I seen this bike I think it would be easier just to start out with the XR1200.
Now all I have to do is wait for HD to bring them to the states.

Sam

Yeah I agree the mufflers look like hell but when I get mine I will be replacing them anyways. Who has stock pipes on their bike anyways.
































(small weak voice at the back of the room while raising his hand) Uh Me, of course, we finally gronked em after a year or so, but technically I think the Guzzi pipes are stock, though from the noise level I suspect someone MIGHT have futzed with em, they're not LOUD by any means, but definitely louder than the stock Harley or even Gronked pipes.

Wow...wow...wow...:banana

Its funny though.. they say its a 'prototype'.. No way.. this is a 'pre-production' prototypes don't have such a finished mass production look..
!

It's just some bolt-on parts as far as the cosmetics. With the help of Trak-Tek, Air-Tech, or Storz, you can bolt one together yourself over a weekend.

The big questions are, will it have reduced fork rake for quicker steering, a six speed gear box, and a drop of 30-40 lbs.? It really needs all these along with the increased hp, to compete against all the other "retro" machines on the market. To prevent being a sales flop, it MUST compete. The XLCR1000 and XR1000 are proof that looks alone won't sell - and H-D isn't going to bite on another media-hyped flop again.

Duane wood you got it right.

Duane wood you got it right.


Except the part where he claims you can bolt one together over a weekend.

Come on man, the Storz kit would set you bacjk 20 large!

And this factory production bike is gonna come with lighter cast wheels, inverted front fork and a lot of other goodies!

I'm still jonesin for it.

K

Except the part where he claims you can bolt one together over a weekend.

Come on man, the Storz kit would set you bacjk 20 large!

And this factory production bike is gonna come with lighter cast wheels, inverted front fork and a lot of other goodies!

I'm still jonesin for it.

K

Right, Kev, this XR already covers much of the Storz offering and more.

Duane makes a good point regarding past HD efforts that were cosmetic makeovers lacking serious modifications to compete in the niche, but this prototype appears to carry much of the right stuff to compete. Even at the current product weight in the mid-500 range, with 90 horsepower this prototype could appeal to a lot of people.

The Buell range offers far better performance, although in the $9,000 to $11,000 range, but the overall aesthetic, sportbike cool and modern, doesn't capture the same appeal as retro.

The Ducati GT, a $9,995 recent model in this niche, weighs only 407 pounds (dry) has a 92-horsepower engine, six speeds, a 43mm fork, and Brembos, but many people are put off by the Desmo valve adjustment and thin dealer network.

The $7,999 Triumph Scrambler is selling well at 508 pounds (wet), only 55 horsepower, 51 lb-ft of torque, 5 speeds, and an average mpg of 33.

The new BMW R1200R isn't retro and probably isn't a direct niche competitor with its high levels of technology and price, about $13,000. But here we have a 437 pound (dry) twin with 109 horsepower, 85 lb-ft of torque, simple screw and locknut valve adjustment and standard ABS and traction control, the latter unavailable from any other manufacturer, but a feature that makes sense when handling so much power on wet surfaces. Likely not many XR candidates will be looking at the BMW as an alternative, but I would if BMW would offer a lower-spec model with lower MSRP, which they will do in the new 800 parallel twin series.

The Guzzi Breva 1100 falls short of the XR (558 pounds, 72 horsepower at the rear wheel, 56 lb-ft of torque) and carries a $12,490 MSRP with an even thinner dealer network than Ducati. I have enjoyed several Guzzis, but this XR with a realistic MSRP would be an easy sell to me over the Guzzi.

The XR, then, could be competitive against these five bikes, depending on MSRP. More telling, however, is that HD with the XR would be expanding its market and image. Cruisers represent the largest niche in the U.S. because of HD, but bolstering HD's sporting image cannot be a bad move.

I could see an 883R with the XR bodywork and chassis upgrades, a model that could speak to those wanting a more sporting Sportster and who do not need more horsepower to run quickly through twisties.

Porsche has grown beyond sports cars to prevent a repeat of the 1980's near-fatal mistake of relying solely on one product niche. They now sell both sports cars and sport SUVs without concern for image and with higher-than-ever profits as a result of the SUV.

HD still owns the cruiser niche, but by offering both cruisers and Harley-branded bikes with sport credentials, even at the modest end of the sport scale, they can build a broader base to respond to a possible decline in the cruiser segment, and they can entice younger riders who will ensure a promising future for the company.

Right, Kev, this XR already covers much of the Storz offering and more.


Out of curiosity, what "more" are you referring to? I can spot the less, but not the "more."

I think the Guzzi Griso and maybe the new Guzzi 1200 Sport would also be potentially cross-shopped. But here in the US, any Guzzi is a serious niche player and not a real financial threat to the sales success of any bike.

I agree on the pricing for the BMW R1200R, it's a tad high, but the F800 being water-cooled kinda changes the equation for me.

I guess I'm one of the freaks who would cross shop all of the mentioned bikes. Though I'd change the Triumph to the Thruxton personally.

Of course, Harley, Guzzi and BMW are ahead in my book - as I'll always take belt or shaft and simple or no valve adjustments over chain drive, shim/bucket or desmos. And the Thruxton is still carbureted. oy vey.

I'd also add some of the 2-valve baby monsters into the equation, specifically the M695 and maybe the 800cc S2R

But honestly, the XR has really captured my attention.

And if I buy it, then my wife is probably going to get herself a Ducati when it is her turn to pick a second bike.

Kev

Out of curiosity, what "more" are you referring to? I can spot the less, but not the "more."


A warranty and EFI for starters.

Plus, I forget, but is the Storz kit all chassis or do they breathe on the motor as well?

Of course, the Storz kit is probably a better chassis, certainly it's lighter.

Still, at the end of the day, it's a kit, not an OE bike with dealer support.

K

Out of curiosity, what "more" are you referring to? I can spot the less, but not the "more."

...unless it's weight.

...unless it's weight.

hey hey, you missed my answer to that question, though I agree weight IS still an issue.

Right. I had the reply window up while you were replying.

Re: EFI, all I'm going to say is; sometimes less is more.

Right. I had the reply window up while you were replying.

Re: EFI, all I'm going to say is; sometimes less is more.


You mean like paying probably $10k less for an XR than you would for the Storz (oh, wait, more like $15-17k less, cause I don't think the Storz kit INCLUDES THE BIKE) ;) :p

Well, we're comparing 2 very different things. Storz' prices are very high, no question.

They don't sell a kit though, it's all à la carte. Depending on where HD prices the XR1200, it may turn out to be possible to equal or better its performance with an XL plus some judiciously-chosen aftermarket parts, at a comparable price point. We here are counting on it.

You won't get it from Storz though, agreed.

A warranty and EFI for starters.

Plus, I forget, but is the Storz kit all chassis or do they breathe on the motor as well?

Of course, the Storz kit is probably a better chassis, certainly it's lighter.

Still, at the end of the day, it's a kit, not an OE bike with dealer support.

K

Yes, all chassis, that and the other points you make were in my mind when I said the XR would offer more than the Storz option.

The Storz weight reduction with full kit is significant, however, and the stock XR weight still remains unknown, right?

...the stock XR weight still remains unknown, right?

That's right.

That's right.


Unknown for sure, but didn't Bert report it was going to be akin to Rubbermount weights? Not sure if that was in the press release or told to him at Intermot.

I still hold out hopes that it will AT LEAST crack the 499 lbs. dry mark!

But I'm a freakin' optimist!

:tour

Right. I had the reply window up while you were replying.

Re: EFI, all I'm going to say is; sometimes less is more.

"Sometimes" as in less to troubleshoot, I suppose, but I've ridden EFI twins for