XLCR- A styling exercise using a stock engine and suspension. Guy looked at it, said "I can buy the base XL with the same chassis and suspension and engine, and style it the same for less money"

XR-1000- A souped up engine in the stock frame with the stock suspension and base styling. Guy looks at it, says "I can buy the base XL with the same frame and suspension and styling, and get more power for less money"

XR 1200- Finaly, a souped up engine in an altered frame with uprated suspension components, with unique styling. You can't buy a base XL with the same components needing only a single upgrade. Its a complete package. A combonation of the previous 2, with some XR-750 thrown in.

Moreover, the EU has passed or is in the process of passing laws to prevent the modification of street legal machines. IE if you want a high performance HD you are going to have to buy it from HD, not soup up a base 883. THIS is why the initial introduction will be in Europe.

all we need is Jerry Branch to port the heads like he did on the XR1000 and we got more power... :D

I'm in the EU. I don't know anything about anyone passing laws against souping up your ride. Even if there is, no one cares. Everybody modifies and tunes the shit out of their bikes. Cops don't even look at you. They onl go after the crotch rockets. We only have inspections every 4 years on new bikes, so who cares.

IMO the XR 1200 has a chance of failing as well. They will look at it and say 550-595 lbs! I can just buy a roadster and hop up the engine and have less plastic.

As long as they don't overprice it, and lets pray they don't, the XR1200 will be a slam dunk hit.

IMO the XR 1200 has a chance of failing as well. They will look at it and say 550-595 lbs! I can just buy a roadster and hop up the engine and have less plastic.

No they won't.

If the bike doesn't do well, that will have nothing to do with it. Well, except maybe that mindset.

Just curious. Since Europe is Buell-friendly, what would this bike have over the Buell Ulysses except less power, less flexibility, and more weight? Might cost a little less?

Just curious. Since Europe is Buell-friendly, what would this bike have over the Buell Ulysses except less power, less flexibility, and more weight? Might cost a little less?


John, seriously, with all due respect, you should read the threads that have been going about this bike.

Specifically, look for Stevo's words. He said it simply and best.

totally different styling..


and it's got a HD badge instead of a Buell badge.....


Most people buy a bike from emotion... HD is very good at marketing to that emotion...

totally different styling..


and it's got a HD badge instead of a Buell badge.....


Most people buy a bike from emotion... HD is very good at marketing to that emotion...
That's it. It is a bike that people look at and fall in love.:)

HD has done a fantastic job with this bike. No doubt it will sell. It's got all the technology and refinement that people think they like about metric bikes, with the HD nameplate. It has gotten rid of any pretense of carrying styling cues from the past, without losing the basic Sportster ancestry.
If it's as good as it looks and performs as flawlessly as my '07 FI sporty, it's as good a machine as you can get for the money, by any manufacturer, anywhere.
The XLCR and XR1000 were experimental bikes at best- experimenting with style and performance in what appears to have been a very niche marketplace at the time. They would never have sold in big numbers anyway.

Just curious. Since Europe is Buell-friendly, what would this bike have over the Buell Ulysses except less power, less flexibility, and more weight? Might cost a little less?

In a word - LOOKS

Earlier this year Jenn and I were seriously shopping for a third bike.

We looked at most/all naked, sporting bikes.

Came down to the baby Ducati Monster and the Buell City X.

The Buell won on performance and ease of maintenance, the Ducati on looks.

We decided to hold off for a year or two.

But honestly, this bridges the gap between the two.

Oh and for the record, if you check back on old threads, my wish list for the 50th anniversary was

1. EFI

and

2. An XLCR or XR styled bike


I have no reason to complain!

I think a lot of it is timing. Back in the day the timing just wasn't right for the CR and XR1000. The biggest complaint I heard about the CR from other Harley riders back then, and I heard plenty of them because I rode it a lot in those early days, was that it looked 'too Japanese'. Of course, it didn't. The Cafe style was very much a European thing, but ignorance ruled then, just as it often does now, and they thought anything that didn't look traditionally Harley MUST by process of elimination be from the Japanese. Even today I still have Big Twin riders come up to me sometimes and say, "what did you do to that Sporty?" or even, "Why did you !!!! that bike up?

Ask any Brit biker to define a cafe racer in one word, and he'll inevitably say "Triton". Compared to the other machinery of its day, it was faster, handled better, and was more affordable than a Vincent.

The XLCR, although stylistically superb, was none of these. Furthermore it appeared after "Easy Rider", which fixed the H-D cruiser image firmly in the British biker psyche, and even over here it was seen as an anomaly.

The XR was never going to succeed in Europe. Quite apart from the excessive cost and reliability issues, it would only ever appeal to existing H-D riders, since the American flat-track style has only caught on relatively recently, with the advent of "street-fighter" styling. Don't forget, we don't do the quarter-mile stuff over here, more's the pity!

As for the XR-1200; the "naked sports-bike" look is very popular over here, witness the success of the Suzuki Bandit and Yamaha's XJR1300. I suspect that it will do very well, and as a previous poster has said, is a perfect compromise between a stock Sporty and a Buell.

I think there are a lot more riders over here that will welcome the XR than Harley might have guessed. Look at the cafe section of this forum, quite a few people are putting rearsets on Sporty's and flat bars. Cycle World has featured quite a few custom Harley's with a clearly sporting intent over the last year. I have considered a Buell, but they are cramped for me (except the long and the Ulysses) -- This is the bike I have been waiting for Harley to build. Sporty, yet comfortable riding position, and being able to *see* the motor (unlike the Buells) -- Price will definitey be a consideration though, so if anyone from Harley is paying attention you better keep the price inline to compete well with the Ducati 1000, Triumph Thruxton etc... $9000 tops.

Ask any Brit biker to define a cafe racer in one word, and he'll inevitably say "Triton". Compared to the other machinery of its day, it was faster, handled better, and was more affordable than a Vincent.

The XLCR, although stylistically superb, was none of these. Furthermore it appeared after "Easy Rider", which fixed the H-D cruiser image firmly in the British biker psyche, and even over here it was seen as an anomaly.


While I will concede that the "Triton" is the quintessential example of a cafe racer, I must object to the comparison between these two bikes.

My reasoning comes from the sense that the "Triton" wasn't even a real bike. It was the slang term given to bikes made by riders to combine the more powerful Triumph engine with the better handling Norton featherbed frame. The XLCR was a factory model and there in lied its demise. The cafe racer culture was all about taking a bike and making it your own, not buying a cafe bike off the shelf. The very existence of the Triton proves that none of the manufacturers were making what these riders wanted. They had to hack two bikes apart to get the one they wanted. The market HD was targeting with the XLCR was inherently against all things "factory" and that's why it failed.

Cheers,

Luke

Think Storz XR1200. I won't buy a Harley XR1200, but I will do my best to get a Storz XR1200. To say that the Harley XR1200 is a decendant of the XR750 is in my opinion a misstatement. In my opinion the Storz XR1200 is. I do appreciate the effort but do wish they would try to get a little closer.

I think there are a lot more riders over here that will welcome the XR than Harley might have guessed. Look at the cafe section of this forum, quite a few people are putting rearsets on Sporty's and flat bars. Cycle World has featured quite a few custom Harley's with a clearly sporting intent over the last year. I have considered a Buell, but they are cramped for me (except the long and the Ulysses) -- This is the bike I have been waiting for Harley to build. Sporty, yet comfortable riding position, and being able to *see* the motor (unlike the Buells) -- Price will definitey be a consideration though, so if anyone from Harley is paying attention you better keep the price inline to compete well with the Ducati 1000, Triumph Thruxton etc... $9000 tops.

Ahhhh - the price point. The XR1200 as shown will cost at least $13,000 from H-D. 1200 Sportsters already go for $9,000-$10,500, and are as bare bones in features and technology as bikes come. The XR1200 has an array of special goodies, not too mention it would be built in limited numbers which really screws up production lines - so it most likely would have to be built in it's own shop - like the BMW "M" series. Yes, TREMENDOUS outpouring to build it here on the forum. But, like the XLCR1000 and XR1000, after the first few hundred copies are scooped up, the rest would gather dust. To sell well (competing against other classic/naked twins) it can NOT have over 500 lbs. dry and needs at least 100 hp at the crank. It won't make either, which makes the price outrageous.

Ahhhh - the price point. The XR1200 as shown will cost at least $13,000 from H-D.



What makes you say that?

I hope not, because that would truly kill it.

I can see it matchin the 1200L or 1200C in price at about 10k, but 3k more would be ridiculous. Not only because it goes into FXD price territory but because it doesn't offer that much more in expensive components than a 1200L, R, or C to justify it.

If they price it high, then it's desirable, and people will buy it for no other reason.

--Chris

If it gets into the $13k range, you'd really have to be wedded to the H-D nameplate to want one. That would put it within a grand or so of a BMW K1200R with 162 hp on 474 (dry) pounds, and many other really fine machines. I'm sure the H-D folks are looking at the same competetive issues we are, and will price it accordingly (but as high as they think they can get away with).

If it gets into the $13k range, you'd really have to be wedded to the H-D nameplate to want one. That would put it within a grand or so of a BMW K1200R with 162 hp on 474 (dry) pounds, and many other really fine machines. I'm sure the H-D folks are looking at the same competetive issues we are, and will price it accordingly (but as high as they think they can get away with).
Hell that would price it at the BMW R1200R (without ABS or ESP) an air/oil cooled twin that would be making more power and at a lower weight. Not a favorable comparison.

But for 10k, I could easily make the comparison and take the trade-offs.

Pricing, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing):

Premium pricing (also called prestige pricing) is the strategy of pricing at, or near, the high end of the possible price range. People will buy a premium priced product because:

1. They believe the high price is an indication of good quality;
2. they believe it to be a sign of self worth - "They are worth it"
- It authenticates their success and status
- It is a signal to others that they are a member of an exclusive group; and
3. They require flawless performance in this application - The cost of product malfunction is too high to buy anything but the best - example : heart pacemaker

emphasis added.

H-D is a very good marketing company that happens to make motorcycles.

--Chris

I have a gut feeling that Harley is going to price it above $12k, which is a bit more than it's really worth. I love the looks of the bike, and can't wait to read how it performs. But at or above $12k I won't be buying one. For that kind of money I'd be looking at something really neat, like a Moto Guzzi Griso (OK, $14k). I hope Harley doesn't overprice this bike, but I'm fairly certain they will.
DougT

They better sharpen their pencils, the XR 1200 doesn't have any groundbreaking technology or research and development that should justify the high price. There are a lot of good bikes out there in the $6-10,000 dollar range. At the low end is is hard to beat the Suzuki SV-650. I think buyers (myself included) of the XR1200 are not going to be the typical buyer who wants a Harley simply because it is a Harley. It is going to have to compete for my money against other bikes. Ducati, Buell, Triumph, BMW, KTM all have some great bikes out there right now. The Ulysses lists for $11,495 and I'm pretty sure you get them for less than MSRP.

http://www.cycleworld.com/default.asp?section_id=18&agFlash=563&agMake=Buell&agModel=ULYSSES%20XB12X&agYear=2006

http://www.cycleworld.com/default.asp?section_id=18&agFlash=929&agMake=Triumph&agModel=Thruxton%20900&agYear=2006

I really want them to bring this bike to the US, but there is no reason it should cost any more than an XL1200R. Actually, I think the XL is a little overpriced as is...

Pricing, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing):


emphasis added.

H-D is a very good marketing company that happens to make motorcycles.

--Chris

But that strategy only works when comparing prices against other brands IF there is a perceived premium product.

HD has 2 strikes against it.

There are bikes from other manufacturers that will outperform it for less.

and, this is probably the most important part,

There are bikes from HD itself which make pricing above 10k unrealistic.

They better sharpen their pencils, the XR 1200 doesn't have any groundbreaking technology or research and development that should justify the high price. There are a lot of good bikes out there in the $6-10,000 dollar range. At the low end is is hard to beat the Suzuki SV-650. I think buyers (myself included) of the XR1200 are not going to be the typical buyer who wants a Harley simply because it is a Harley. It is going to have to compete for my money against other bikes. Ducati, Buell, Triumph, BMW, KTM all have some great bikes out there right now. The Ulysses lists for $11,495 and I'm pretty sure you get them for less than MSRP.

http://www.cycleworld.com/default.asp?section_id=18&agFlash=563&agMake=Buell&agModel=ULYSSES%20XB12X&agYear=2006

http://www.cycleworld.com/default.asp?section_id=18&agFlash=929&agMake=Triumph&agModel=Thruxton%20900&agYear=2006

I really want them to bring this bike to the US, but there is no reason it should cost any more than an XL1200R. Actually, I think the XL is a little overpriced as is...

Bingo with Buell's priced from what 8-11k, and 1200 sportys from 8-10k, I don't see this going higher than them both and selling.

I still say 10k, because:

1. That puts it at the top of the Buell price range (Buellysses not withstanding)
2. At the top of the Sportster range, more than $1k above the 1200R.
3. Still at a "premium" when compared to many bikes in the segment from say Japanese, Triumph or Ducati, while still below bikes like the Guzzi Griso or BMW R1200R.

But above $10k, I think you'll see a sharp drop off in interest.

Kev

I've given up trying to figure out Harley reasoning.I can only wait and see-for one if they do make it to North America and two-if reasonably priced.The 50th anniversary model was a huge disappointment.Nothing the moco does or doesn't do won't surprise me after that!

Bingo with Buell's priced from what 8-11k, and 1200 sportys from 8-10k, I don't see this going higher than them both and selling.

I still say 10k, because:

1. That puts it at the top of the Buell price range (Buellysses not withstanding)
2. At the top of the Sportster range, more than $1k above the 1200R.
3. Still at a "premium" when compared to many bikes in the segment from say Japanese, Triumph or Ducati, while still below bikes like the Guzzi Griso or BMW R1200R.

But above $10k, I think you'll see a sharp drop off in interest.

Kev

A 1200 custom with two tone paint and profile spoked wheels lists out at $10,615, 49 states. And it is the ugliest beast in the Sporty line up!

The XR, if sold in the US will top that price for sure.

XR badge = $ and limited production will drive the cost into the $12K range imho.

Dyna buyers only look at the Sporty if they are money tight, potential XR buyers don't even care that the Dyna exists....

What makes you say that?

I hope not, because that would truly kill it.

I can see it matchin the 1200L or 1200C in price at about 10k, but 3k more would be ridiculous. Not only because it goes into FXD price territory but because it doesn't offer that much more in expensive components than a 1200L, R, or C to justify it.

Good wheels cost more, good suspension costs more, better brakes cost more, hopped up engine costs more, other limited production parts on the bike cost more - such as the downdraft EFI with special airbox, it needs to be built separate from the other Sportsters so their construction flow is not interuppted - it all costs more.

Good wheels cost more, good suspension costs more, better brakes cost more, hopped up engine costs more, other limited production parts on the bike cost more - such as the downdraft EFI with special airbox, it needs to be built separate from the other Sportsters so their construction flow is not interuppted - it all costs more.

I agree with you : it all costs more. But, IMHO, we're not talking about cost, but pricing and market opportunities. I think these are two diferent concepts.

I hope that you agree with me if I say that the XL1200R cost less than it is priced. And it's possible enough that Harley pricing rules aren't headed by model cost, but by marketing. They're selling emotions, not only bikes.

A 1200 custom with two tone paint and profile spoked wheels lists out at $10,615, 49 states. And it is the ugliest beast in the Sporty line up!

The XR, if sold in the US will top that price for sure.

XR badge = $ and limited production will drive the cost into the $12K range imho.

Dyna buyers only look at the Sporty if they are money tight, potential XR buyers don't even care that the Dyna exists....

But looking at build costs, a 1200C has some more expensive components on it. Lots of metal and bling. No reason why the XR costs are going to be higher once tooling is paid for.

Dyna buyers will cross-shop Sportys when money is tight, that's why there needs to be a price difference between the 1200C and the FXD.

Similarly Buell buyers will likely cross-shop a XR1200 and no way most are going to pay MORE for less performance in an XR!

Kev

Good wheels cost more, good suspension costs more, better brakes cost more, hopped up engine costs more, other limited production parts on the bike cost more - such as the downdraft EFI with special airbox, it needs to be built separate from the other Sportsters so their construction flow is not interuppted - it all costs more.


IF what you said was true, then the Buell XR9s wouldn't sell for less than the 1200C. But in fact, they do, plus you can get $1k or more off them when they sit on the floor.

The very existence of Buell and their pricing structure negates your arguments.

Kev

Dear Kev,
The Buells sell for less because they don't sell well in the first place. I'm surprised Buell has managed to stay in business this long. Who do you know that owns a Buell? I live in So. Cal. (the Mecca of sport bike riding), and they are very scarce on the streets and canyons here. I've looked at them and ridden them, and I can tell you for sure that I would never buy one. The Buells are ugly, strange machines and this is the reason their sales have historically been poor. So that's why the Buells sell for a lower than expected (Harley-Davidson) price, because people don't want 'em!
DougT

Dear Kev,
The Buells sell for less because they don't sell well in the first place. I'm surprised Buell has managed to stay in business this long. Who do you know that owns a Buell? I live in So. Cal. (the Mecca of sport bike riding), and they are very scarce on the streets and canyons here. I've looked at them and ridden them, and I can tell you for sure that I would never buy one. The Buells are ugly, strange machines and this is the reason their sales have historically been poor. So that's why the Buells sell for a lower than expected (Harley-Davidson) price, because people don't want 'em!
DougT


Dear Doug,

I can still think of 5 dealers all an hour or less from me who sell Buells.

I can think of 4 people off the top of my head who own them.

I seriously shopped them this summer and may buy one next year, if I don't get a Ducati, another Guzzi, a BMW or an XR1200

When I was talking about pricing on Buells I was chiefly talking about MSRP (though yes, they are slower sellers than your usual Harley which is why you can get them for $1k LESS than MSRP, but then again that's becoming true of regular Harleys too).

Harleys are therefore not immune to competitive pricing.

And anything tied to the Sporty line in any way is going to be less immune than BTs.

:geek

Kev,
All this talk about pricing and immune pricing and competitive pricing disregards the fact that the XR 1200 won't be able to compete with bikes in the same class that cost less...and you know Harley is going to price this sucker up just as high as they think they can get away with. I don't know right off hand how much a new Bandit sells for, but I do know that it will smoke the XR. And this is just one of the bikes out there already in production and very affordable. And here we sit biting our nails hoping Harley will see fit to offer the XR to us in the states, and for a price that's not "too high." All of this for what? The XR won't beat the other bikes in it's class, and is going to cost more than most of them. And we want to buy one anyway! Talk about your successful marketing.
DougT

Kev,
All this talk about pricing and immune pricing and competitive pricing disregards the fact that the XR 1200 won't be able to compete with bikes in the same class that cost less...and you know Harley is going to price this sucker up just as high as they think they can get away with. I don't know right off hand how much a new Bandit sells for, but I do know that it will smoke the XR. And this is just one of the bikes out there already in production and very affordable. And here we sit biting our nails hoping Harley will see fit to offer the XR to us in the states, and for a price that's not "too high." All of this for what? The XR won't beat the other bikes in it's class, and is going to cost more than most of them. And we want to buy one anyway! Talk about your successful marketing.
DougT


LOL, Good points, and I think we're rehashing.

but a Thruxton isn't going to beat many bikes from a performance standpoint. And it's pricier than some too.

But it sells on a combination of looks and ability. Enough of both.

Most Moto Guzzi's aren't class leaders, but again, the offer a combination of performance and ability.

How about Ducati Monsters? Yeah, there are some real performers in the upper end of the model line, but I believe the lower end of the model line sells better, due largely to pricing. They are compromises.

I don't think that MOST Japanese bike buyers are going to cross-shop, but the ones that do will do so based on what they are looking for, their particular blend of form and function.

And I'm just stating that WHEN people start making that compromise, HD can't go too far in pricing away from the alternatives. And the 1200R is still going to be an Alternative at $8.5k, and a Thruxton at $7.5K, and Some MIGHT even cross-shop a Buell at $8-10k etc, and a Ducati Monster at $7-10k.

Only the Guzzi 1200 and the BMW 1200 are going to come in higher than 10k.

And the Guzzi is a VERY small market and the BMW is going to offer buttloads more of stuff with a preimium price-tag that can back it up.

Only time will tell if they will sell the XR here, but my prediction is that they will, and that it will do well, UNLESS they price it much over $10k. Even $11k and change is pushing it. $12k is too much.

But that's just one opinion and time will tell.

Kev

Dyna buyers only look at the Sporty if they are money tight, potential XR buyers don't even care that the Dyna exists....

Very good point - Harley will not be competing with itself on this one. Most who purchase a motorcycle do it based on a bias - they want the brand. If they like harleys, they'll get a sporty, if they like hondas, they'd get a shadow, etc.

I would have an easy time deciding between WHICH harley to get, and price would not be (much) a factor on which one. It's only when you get in to the big twins that harley MAY be competing with itself, but it's still up to the buyer. Higher price = status symbol in the big twin world.

That said, the XR needs to be priced against it's competition, not other harleys. This will keep those looking for a harley XR bike "in the door", rather than pushing them to consider other brands due to price. Once the buyer starts crunching the numbers on performance vs. looks vs. reliability vs. price then HD is out the door for all practical purposes on a XR style bike.

This, on top of everything Kev M said, is why harley needs to keep pricing in-range with the competition but a little bit higher.

That XR is pretty trick for a Harley but the development costs were not high, it has lotsa nice light plastic bits and no chrome so the production costs are not more than say,a 1200C. Look what the V-rod must have cost in comparison. Or the XB buells.

A Bandit would beat an XR1200 (or almost any twin) in a drag race but the Bandit would be in a ditch if you pushed it hard in the twisties. What an overweight,wallowing pile. It's like a cheap UJM chassis with too much motor.

Any body who thinks Buell is forked up is an idiot. Buells are GREAT street performance bikes. They aren't repli-racers like GSXR's,CBR's etc. If you want a 160+mph bike, cool. They're a dime a dozen. Ride a buell in the twisties and tell me it don't go. And a buck-thirty five is about OK on the straights,no?

I rode a ZX10R recently. Impressive? Certainly. Useless? Totally. A very edgy,uncomfortable bike for street riding. Sorta silly, but amazing too.

I do not know very much. I do not work for H-D. I would bet my left reproductive unit the XR1200 comes here and stickers at 10K. Here's one for you business gurus: Does each product have to stand on it's own merit or can some products realize a narrow or zero margin if the whole company is doing real well? And how long do they give something a try before pulling the plug if it ain't making money?

Back in the day I thought peole were narrow minded about bikes. Guess what it's worse now. And the worst bike made today is a pretty decent machine. You can have anything you want now from full-on roadracer with turnsignals to 1200cc enduros to Harleys that any non-mechanic can own to wild-ass choppers and on and on. Even that Bandit ain't really so bad. For a rice burner.

Dieselvette - I shouldn't be arguing with you, because later in this post you seem to be supporting my point, but I see a problem with your early logic and I'm a slave to logic...


Very good point - Harley will not be competing with itself on this one. Most who purchase a motorcycle do it based on a bias - they want the brand. If they like harleys, they'll get a sporty, if they like hondas, they'd get a shadow, etc.


Don't you see a conflict with this statement?

You say BOTH that

Harley won't be competiting with itself

then you say

Most people bias a brand, if they like a Harley, they'll get a Harley.


Both can't be true.

If the second statement is correct, then people WILL be looking at what type of and how much HARLEY they can get for their money.

They can get a 1200R for about $8.5k or an FXD for $12kish (I'm not bringing the 1200L or C into this, because I think they appeal to someone further on the form than function scale).

If so, 10kish is right between em, and that's where I see the XR sitting.


That said, the XR needs to be priced against it's competition, not other harleys. This will keep those looking for a harley XR bike "in the door", rather than pushing them to consider other brands due to price. Once the buyer starts crunching the numbers on performance vs. looks vs. reliability vs. price then HD is out the door for all practical purposes on a XR style bike.

This, on top of everything Kev M said, is why harley needs to keep pricing in-range with the competition but a little bit higher.

Well THIS I agree with.

THIS JUST IN - BMW announced the price for the F800S - a naked, 800cc Parallel (water-cooled) Twin, "sport" bike with belt final drive that makes 85 hp and weighs only 400 lbs.

PRICE?

$9.9k ----- or 10 Grand!


EDIT - oops forgot the link

http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/bikes/bike.jsp?b=f800s


THIS is something I can see people cross-shopping with the XR

Kev

Roadster made all good points.

Especially

That XR is pretty trick for a Harley but the development costs were not high, it has lotsa nice light plastic bits and no chrome so the production costs are not more than say,a 1200C. Look what the V-rod must have cost in comparison. Or the XB buells.



and



I do not know very much. I do not work for H-D. I would bet my left reproductive unit the XR1200 comes here and stickers at 10K. Here's one for you business gurus: Does each product have to stand on it's own merit or can some products realize a narrow or zero margin if the whole company is doing real well? And how long do they give something a try before pulling the plug if it ain't making money?


I don't think many companies can afford to carry a product that isn't profitable for any length of time. Not without extreme motivation.

Although Harley can afford to do it, I doubt they would be motivated to do it with this segment.

Maybe with a Buell in order to get somewhere.

Maybe with a Vrod (remember with new standards, EVERY water-cooled bike they sell that makes even better emissions than the regulations allows them to sell another air-cooled bike even if it doesn't meet the new regulations, the emissions regulations are a corporate AVERAGE).

But although I see the XR as hopefully continuing to broaden their offerings, I don't think they want that enough to carry it at a loss.

Not that I think they'd need to at $10k.

Kev

Interesting thread, but a couple of points:

We're arguing over the price point of a bike without any knowledge of what that bike will look like in its final production version. Do we know for sure it'll have more power and better suspension? Would it surprise you if it was just another version of the sportster with the same engine, drivetrain and suspension like the R, C and L models are now?

Does anyone know how much it cost to make a C compared to R model? The price of vehicles has more to do with market positioning than acutual cost to manufacture. Does it really cost Damalier Chrysler four times as much to make one of their cars as it does Hyundai? It wouldn't surprise me to find out a C model only cost the MOCO a few hundred bucks more to make than the R model.

Interesting thread, but a couple of points:

We're arguing over the price point of a bike without any knowledge of what that bike will look like in its final production version. Do we know for sure it'll have more power and better suspension? Would it surprise you if it was just another version of the sportster with the same engine, drivetrain and suspension like the R, C and L models are now?

Both Berts report and photos, plus the magazines that have seen the prototype report that they may be calling it a "prototype" but it must be VERY VERY close to production because of how well finished it is. The unique mufflers on it are even stamped with EU and EPA certification wording.

So I'd venture we know maybe not for sure, but pretty damn well (like high 90%s) that it would have more power (as reported) and better suspension etc). They wouldn't go through that much trouble and keep the same engine, drivetrain suspension etc.


Does anyone know how much it cost to make a C compared to R model? The price of vehicles has more to do with market positioning than acutual cost to manufacture. Does it really cost Damalier Chrysler four times as much to make one of their cars as it does Hyundai? It wouldn't surprise me to find out a C model only cost the MOCO a few hundred bucks more to make than the R model.

Apples and Oranges.

A better question would be does it really cost DC twice as much to make a Commander than a Compass, and I'd say, maybe not twice as much, but I suspect it's pretty linear.

Pricing is generally reached in two ways.

1. What does it cost us to make?

and

2. How much profit on top of that will the market bear?

The second is a question of high price/low volume vs. low price/high volume and where is the magic point.

I suspect there are definite cost savings on a 1200R over a 1200C -

The chrome vs. powdercoat, spoke wheel vs. cast.

but there are also marketing factors

bigger tank and forwards sell to a crowd willing to pay more, while the tachometer and dual disc brakes appeal to the crowd who will put up with the powdercoat.

So it's not black and white, or necessarily even linear, but manufacturing/parts costs are a major factor to be considered when setting price.

Kev

Kev, I guess we'll see when it arrives in the dealer's showroom.

Kev, I guess we'll see when it arrives in the dealer's showroom.

True Dat,

I'll buy ya a beer if I'm wrong. ;)

They can get a 1200R for about $8.5k or an FXD for $12kish (I'm not bringing the 1200L or C into this, because I think they appeal to someone further on the form than function scale).

If so, 10kish is right between em, and that's where I see the XR sitting.
Kev

Kev,
I guess I didn't explain very well. It looked like a contradiction when I first read it too, but really it's about two different points.

What I meant was that if you want a sportster-type bike then you're not gonna go to a Dyna even if the price is really close - that's why they aren't competing with themselves & the Dyna price is irrelevant.

The only ones that would jump to the dyna (if the price was close) are those who have X amount of $ and simply want a HARLEY because the neighbor has one and it sounds cool. In that case why would harley care if you bought a Dyna instead of an XR? It's likely they'd make better profit on the Dyna anyway.

At the same time, if you're all about harleys (in this case, sportys specifically) then you're not likely to go shopping at the honda dealer unless the price different is significant, which is why they need to price it accordingly.

I know a lot of people around here split hairs on Dyna vs. Sporty peformance.

But truth of the matter is, when it comes to the rubbermounts, the lines REALLY are blurred much more than they had ever been.

I know a number of people who might cross shop a Dyna and a Sporty. More now that the rubbermounts have proven more comfortable and the Dyna's have beefed forks and a more rigid frame.

And considering the speeds I was chasing a buddy on a Dyna through rolling curves on the Cherohalla Skyway this summer (75 mph in the curves and topping 100 on the straights) well, I can tell you it's a capable bike.

I guess I hear what you are saying.

They're all sliding scales.

But the 1200R and the FXD aren't THAT far apart in some ways. The FXD adds some more comfort at a significant jump in price, but doesn't loose TOO much performance.

If reports are correct, the XR goes the other direction, addnig more performance to the 1200R. Perhaps starting to bridge the gap between the 1200R and the Buells.

And as such, on a form/comfort vs. function/performance scale I see an interesting chart forming (I'm using round numbers off the top of my head)

Dyna - 1200R - XR1200 - XB9X - XB12X

$12k - $8.5K - ? - $8.5K - $10.5K


God I do wish they'd bring it to market and give us more details!!!!

True Dat,

I'll buy ya a beer if I'm wrong. ;)

ditto the beer.

Kevin, Thanks for the link to the BMW.
Sigh... Now I feel a very strong "Need" for one of these... Don't tell my wife :rolleyes:
http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/images/bikes/f800s/bike_photo_gallery_photos/1.jpg

I wonder how many people really do cross shop as you say. Seems to me if you want a Harley, that's what you want.

Myself, I like lots of diferent bikes, but I can only afford to own one at a time. Harleys are what I love the most, so cross shopping is not happenening when I'm in the market. And I'll tell you another thing, Buells don't even get a second look when I'm at the dealer checking out bikes.

If HD went belly up and Buell were bought back by Eric (stay with me!) they wouldn't even make my shopping list.

Point is, I don't care what price Buells sell for, so it really has no bearing, for me, on what price an XR1200 may arrive at. I don't think I'm alone on that point either.

You are likely right in your marketing thinking, but I want Harley to know that I need an XR1200 real bad, set a price and a delivery schedule for Nevada!

Relayer, I'm not doubting for a moment that Harley is counting on a certain number of people like you, sorta a "my country right or wrong" but in this case "my brand right or wrong"

I just hope that they are not counting on JUST people like that, because that kind of arrogance will keep them from expanding.

Cross-shopping like that doesn't seem strange to me, because well, I DO.

I didn't always.

But the last couple of bikes I bought, I did. And it was neat and freeing.

but it does bring me back to a subset of bikes and brands.

and narrows down what I love.

Kev

I wonder how many people really do cross shop as you say. Seems to me if you want a Harley, that's what you want.

Myself, I like lots of diferent bikes, but I can only afford to own one at a time. Harleys are what I love the most, so cross shopping is not happenening when I'm in the market. And I'll tell you another thing, Buells don't even get a second look when I'm at the dealer checking out bikes.

If HD went belly up and Buell were bought back by Eric (stay with me!) they wouldn't even make my shopping list.

Point is, I don't care what price Buells sell for, so it really has no bearing, for me, on what price an XR1200 may arrive at. I don't think I'm alone on that point either.

You are likely right in your marketing thinking, but I want Harley to know that I need an XR1200 real bad, set a price and a delivery schedule for Nevada!

I'm not brand loyal at all in any product or vehicle. We're looking to buy a second, bigger bike and right I'm leaning toward a Gold Wing or BMW K1200LT. Having said that, the HD name has some connotations for people. Some times its a good thing and other times its not so good. I'm pretty sure the HD name is not highly regarded in crotch rocket circles. That perception will have an impact on sales of this bike. Hopefully, HD will have done their market research and know what kind of sales to expect and can live with that number what ever it is.

Kevin, Thanks for the link to the BMW.
Sigh... Now I feel a very strong "Need" for one of these... Don't tell my wife :rolleyes:
http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/images/bikes/f800s/bike_photo_gallery_photos/1.jpg


There are some online videos of the F800 in the mountains. It flat flies through tight terrain.

A 1200 custom with two tone paint and profile spoked wheels lists out at $10,615, 49 states. And it is the ugliest beast in the Sporty line up!

The XR, if sold in the US will top that price for sure.

XR badge = $ and limited production will drive the cost into the $12K range imho.

Dyna buyers only look at the Sporty if they are money tight, potential XR buyers don't even care that the Dyna exists....

While I don't agree with your comments about the 1200C's looks (unless you mean '04 +) I do agree more with your pricing. The XR ,if it is ever sold here, probably would not make it until at least 2008. At that time I bet the price of the high end Sporty will be close to $12k. I would guess that the extra power in the XR would push it close to $13k. Doesn't really matter to me I wouldn't buy one anyways.

While I don't agree with your comments about the 1200C's looks (unless you mean '04 +) I do agree more with your pricing. The XR ,if it is ever sold here, probably would not make it until at least 2008. At that time I bet the price of the high end Sporty will be close to $12k. I would guess that the extra power in the XR would push it close to $13k. Doesn't really matter to me I wouldn't buy one anyways.

JEEZUS, you think inflation is going to reach more than 10% per year on these bikes (i.e. 20% in TWO years)?

Holy CRAP, my Road King was only $15k in 1996 and by TEN YEARS later it had only increased $2-3k or so... meaning 15-20% in 10 years!!!!

The 1200L/C damn well better not reach $12k in the next two years.

I'm not brand loyal at all in any product or vehicle. We're looking to buy a second, bigger bike and right I'm leaning toward a Gold Wing or BMW K1200LT. Having said that, the HD name has some connotations for people. Some times its a good thing and other times its not so good. I'm pretty sure the HD name is not highly regarded in crotch rocket circles. That perception will have an impact on sales of this bike. Hopefully, HD will have done their market research and know what kind of sales to expect and can live with that number what ever it is.

From what I've seen, staying alive isn't too highly reguarded in some crotch rocket circles either.

The main reason that the XR is being considered, is Harley knows they need to expand their sales base and right now!

The US is flooded with used HD bikes for sale and the new 96 - six speed just pulled the rug out from everyone that is still making payments on a big twin. It used to be that the used bikes could be priced close to the new model MSRP and negotiated from there. A couple of people at work have been to the dealer to try to deal their bikes into the latest models. Guess what? The dealers don't want to give jack for last years bike because they know it's going to be real hard to sell one anywhere near MSRP of a new one.

Harley had to do this and I'm sure they got plenty of dealer feedback before moving forward with such a two headed monster change.

Hence the XR. If it is a success in Europe, expect to see Dyna and Touring bikes with longer travel and USD forks for Europe and real soon. The XR will come to the USA, as a limited edition model only. The big twins for the US will have to remain stable for a time untill the market can work itself out, four years at least is my guess.

First off, dealers have never given great numbers on trades. They weren't motivated too.

And the market isn't "flooded" it's finally JUST barely reaching saturation point, like EVERY OTHER manufacturer.

Harley was smart and created a new market with their upgrades. People are going to want them because of the bigger cubes, 6-speed bla bla bla, but that doesn't mean they NEED to create a market for their used bikes.

First off, dealers have never given great numbers on trades. They weren't motivated too.

And the market isn't "flooded" it's finally JUST barely reaching saturation point, like EVERY OTHER manufacturer.

Harley was smart and created a new market with their upgrades. People are going to want them because of the bigger cubes, 6-speed bla bla bla, but that doesn't mean they NEED to create a market for their used bikes.

If you look at how HD has done things in the past, they have usually only changed one major thing at a time.

Actually I would like to know what new market it is that you think Harley has created? You may be independantly wealthy, but most of us are not. If we can't sell or trade in our old ride for a decent price, we can't afford the newest one. People have and always will (I assume) lusted for Harleys, so what exactley is the new market?

The four years I was guessing was for used 88TC 5-speeds to find a balance price wise. Harley really doesn't give a RA about used bikes. I think you missed the point altogether.

If you look at how HD has done things in the past, they have usually only changed one major thing at a time.

Yes, they have traditionally changed less at once, but they were also less motivated too. They were selling EVERYTHING they could build with year long waiting lists. Now they need to create excitement.


Actually I would like to know what new market it is that you think Harley has created? You may be independantly wealthy, but most of us are not. If we can't sell or trade in our old ride for a decent price, we can't afford the newest one. People have and always will (I assume) lusted for Harleys, so what exactley is the new market?


Your logic assumes that most Harley buyers are repeat buyers. I suspect that a large percentage of Harley buyers are either new riders or new converts.

You don't have to be indepenently wealthy, but just because it is now harder for someone to buy a new bike every 2 years doesn't mean there aren't others who are willing to step into that guy's shoes.

The artificially high used values of Harleys were always a tad too inflated.

And even a decade ago many people found that out when they tried to sell or trade theirs. But if they wanted a new one bad enough, they still found a way.



The four years I was guessing was for used 88TC 5-speeds to find a balance price wise. Harley really doesn't give a RA about used bikes. I think you missed the point altogether.

You mean for depreciation to level off or for all the idiots who took 7 year loans with no money down to pay off enough so they aren't upside down on em???

:geek

And the real point was that the XR is indeed a test to see what HD needs to do to move more units in the EU.

Ta Da.

Thanks for playing along, some lovely parting gifts....

:clap

I don't know how representative I am for buyers, but I definitely cross-shop. Have never owned a Harley, but was considering a Sportster 1200R and was going to put rearsets on it and longer shocks etc... I've owned quite a few bikes over the years, mostly Japanese UJM's. Currently have an old BMW R100GS. I would love to have an XR1200, but since this is going to be my first *new* bike purchase, I am going to really be shopping hard for the best bike for the money. There are intangibles, like how the bike makes you feel when riding it that are hard to equate into dollar terms. It won't necessarily be the cheapest bike out there - the SV650 is a tough bike to beat for the $$$. I will probably keep the BMW, but if Harley can deliver the XR and keep the price reasonable then sign me up. Unlike the big twins, I think XR buyers will be cross shopping and comparing what they can get from other makes. BTW I like the new BMW F800, but would like it even better with a big fat round headlight and no fairing....

The used motorcycle market is currently hyper-GLUTTED. H-D and otherwise. It's a normal part of the business cycle- a big purchasing boom followed by a production overshoot. No manufacturer really ever knows where the peak will be and they don't want to miss out on the fat market. So they just keep increasing production. Eventually parity is reached and surpassed for awhile.

So the market now is realy great for buying. For selling it's not great. BTW the bigger better 96in. BT is.....ho-hum. I rode a new Dyna after the first 1000mi. service the other day. No big deal,trust me. The added fangle does help sell them, of course.

Did you know that H-D sold 13,000 units in 1979? Their all-time abyss. Nearly went down the tubes into history.

Anyway,the XR1200 obviously is not aimed at the CBR/ZX market. Nor is it a Krome Krewzer. It just seems like a cool idea. We'll see.

BTW I like the new BMW F800, but would like it even better with a big fat round headlight and no fairing....

:clap :clap :clap

I really think this is a good discussion guys.

I agree that they are testing the waters.

I think that instead of trying to jump in with both feet, they have been taking an "evolutionary" approach to expanding their offerings and customer base.

Obviously I'm passionate about it because I not only want it to work, I want THIS PARTICULAR bike!

But we have a Harley, and if they fall too short on performance or stretch too far on a price, I'll simply buy a Duc, Buell, Guzzi, BMW or Triumph instead.

Kev

I really think this is a good discussion guys.

I agree that they are testing the waters.

I think that instead of trying to jump in with both feet, they have been taking an "evolutionary" approach to expanding their offerings and customer base.

Obviously I'm passionate about it because I not only want it to work, I want THIS PARTICULAR bike!

But we have a Harley, and if they fall too short on performance or stretch too far on a price, I'll simply buy a Duc, Buell, Guzzi, BMW or Triumph instead.

Kev

Kev, your last sentence is what I'm talking about with the XR and the MOCO. You've seen the XR, love the XR, and want the XR. But, would it surprise you if the XR that makes it into the showroom falls short on performance AND has a high price tag? Hasn't it happened in the past? Hence the title of this thread.

JEEZUS, you think inflation is going to reach more than 10% per year on these bikes (i.e. 20% in TWO years)?

Holy CRAP, my Road King was only $15k in 1996 and by TEN YEARS later it had only increased $2-3k or so... meaning 15-20% in 10 years!!!!

The 1200L/C damn well better not reach $12k in the next two years.

1996 was back in the days when Harley could sell for more than MSRP because of demand and supply issues. Those inflated prices do not reflect a true increase percentage.

The top price on a 1200C is now around $10,600 I wouldn't be suprised to see a $500 a year price increase that would put it around $11,600 (close to $12k) in '08 when the '09 will be released. If the XR is supposed to be such a big improvement over the rest of the Sportsters I would expect it to be at least as much as a 1200C if not more.

But seeing as how this is all speculation about a bike that may never be sold here I figure I'm as right as the next guy at this point.

There was an article in the post recent Enthusiast (which I got yesterday) about the 50th Anniversary of the Sportster. Now a bad article, but it had a picture and write-up about the XR1200. It says production will depend on how well it is received in Europe. Tease.:rolleyes:

Kev, your last sentence is what I'm talking about with the XR and the MOCO. You've seen the XR, love the XR, and want the XR. But, would it surprise you if the XR that makes it into the showroom falls short on performance AND has a high price tag? Hasn't it happened in the past? Hence the title of this thread.

But all they have to do is deliver what they have already said they are going to deliver, AT A REASONABLE price and they will not fall short of my expectations.

One thing that Harley has proven in the past 2 decades is that they have gotten MUCH better at meeting customer's expectations.

YES, I'd prefer it to be under 500 lbs.

But otherwise at the specs of the press release, in the form shown at Intermot, I think this bike is going to meet my expectations (and that of a lot of other people).

People whose needs are NOT QUITE being met by a 1200R and are cross-shopping with other brands.

For me, it will all come down to price. Because I am interested in so many other bikes (both from Harley and competitors), I will look at the overall package of what I am getting for my money. And if it is too expensive, I'll buy something else.

Everyone is going to have their own set of expectations on weight and performance, but I still say that given the specs they've released so far, this is going to meet them for a lot of people. Others are going to say it fell short, sure, but it's still a leap ahead of the current 1200R in both motor and chassis, and the current 1200R is a decent bike.

1996 was back in the days when Harley could sell for more than MSRP because of demand and supply issues. Those inflated prices do not reflect a true increase percentage.

First off, I never paid A DIME OVER MSRP for any Harley.

And I've bought every Harley I've ever owned new.

So the figures I quoted represent TRUE percentage increases.


The top price on a 1200C is now around $10,600 I wouldn't be suprised to see a $500 a year price increase that would put it around $11,600 (close to $12k) in '08 when the '09 will be released.

I'd have to check, but I think even the BTs didn't see anything more than a $200 or so price increase in this past year. And Sportys have not seen more than $100 or so a year for the past few years at least.



If the XR is supposed to be such a big improvement over the rest of the Sportsters I would expect it to be at least as much as a 1200C if not more.


Apples and Oranges.

Stop looking at the Chromed poser-Sporty (that should start some flaming eh?).

Seriously the 1200C is about as removed from the audience of the XR1200 as can be.

The 1200C is about a "cruiser" - a chromed show pony with bigger gas tank and forward controls, and risers etc.

The 1200R is the closest thing in the Sporty lineup and that is what? $8-9k now.

The audience who is going to look at an XR would otherwise NOT be looking at a 1200C - they'd be looking at a 1200R

The XR is going to be a functional improvement over that, and as such I'm sure will command a higher price, but I'm not thinking higher than the 1200C that's for sure.

MAYBE I'm just being optimistic. But I've put forth my logic and compared the XR to bikes from both Harley and other brands that I think are form/function related, so time will tell.



But seeing as how this is all speculation about a bike that may never be sold here I figure I'm as right as the next guy at this point.

BLASPHEMER! take that back :p ;) :laugh

In 2-3 years I will buy another bike. I'll have more experience then but mainly just because the money will be available then. I like Harley and my Sportster but I will look aorund. (I am loyal to my country but not to corporations.) I don't want a 750 lb cruiser so an XL1200 would have been a real possibility. That XR1200 would compete nicely with the aforementioned BMW 800's, even thought he BMW's are much lkighter. A 1200 cc Sportster with more power (stock) is just a better possiblity. I suspect there are a number of people like me who like bikes about the size of a Sportster and would be willing to spend some money to have a higher end one.

We've had a few threads about sales figures latley. It Harley can move 5-10 K of the XR1200s then it's well worth production from their POV.

First off, I never paid A DIME OVER MSRP for any Harley.

And I've bought every Harley I've ever owned new.

Seriously the 1200C is about as removed from the audience of the XR1200 as can be.


The 1200R is the closest thing in the Sporty lineup and that is what? $8-9k now.

The audience who is going to look at an XR would otherwise NOT be looking at a 1200C - they'd be looking at a 1200R


BLASPHEMER! take that back :p ;) :laugh

If you never paid more than msrp you must have known someone. :wonderlan

The only comparison I'm making between the 1200C and the xr was in price. You imply that no one would spend 10k+ on a sportster. I think that if the xr is ever sold here it will be higher than a 1200C initially.
Supply & Demand.

Oh and those "Chromed - Poser 1200C Sportsters" can still be fast!

As far as the XR1200 goes if I ever get a line on one I'll get hold of you. I definately don't want one in my Garage and as Hyped up you you are over it you deserve the first one.

If you never paid more than msrp you must have known someone. :wonderlan

Nope, in 1993 I walked in with cash and the @sshole dealer bumped someone on the list (unbeknowst to me until after). But the price was strict MSRP no extras, no hidden fees etc.

In 96 I dealt with a better dealer, he took deposits every 3 months only for the bikes he knew for sure were scheduled to come in. He also sold only at MSRP, no BS.

We bought our 05 from the same dealer and got an MSRP, minus set-up, minus $1k Harley coupon back in Feb of 05.


The only comparison I'm making between the 1200C and the xr was in price. You imply that no one would spend 10k+ on a sportster. I think that if the xr is ever sold here it will be higher than a 1200C initially.
Supply & Demand.


I realize you brought it up for price, but my responce is you might as well have brought up an FXDL at that point, because there were too many dis-similarities for me to take the comparison seriously. Again, we might as well just compare it to the XB12 at that point.

As for supply and demand, the demand for a new, less than traditional Harley product would have to be damn high for them to price it high. It's more common these days to set the price realistic and then claim they have to charge a premium, but still very few people allow dealers to get away with that anymore (car or bike).


Oh and those "Chromed - Poser 1200C Sportsters" can still be fast!


lol, I didn't say they aren't. Just not my thing that's all.



As far as the XR1200 goes if I ever get a line on one I'll get hold of you. I definately don't want one in my Garage and as Hyped up you you are over it you deserve the first one.

LOL, gracias ;)

Kev

One quick note we have new ZO6 Corvettes on our Showroom floor that are selling for $10,000 over MSRP! Sell everyone we get. Could sell more if we could get them. Supply and Demand !!!!

One quick note we have new ZO6 Corvettes on our Showroom floor that are selling for $10,000 over MSRP! Sell everyone we get. Could sell more if we could get them. Supply and Demand !!!!


That's a rare thing.

I've bought a number of first year release cars and never even paid full boat MSRP on em. Even when there were waiting lists (like with my wife's Mini Cooper).

I remember when people were talking about dealers holding the line on PT cruisers and Ford Tbirds, only to have those same dealers dig deep toward invoice and holdback to get rid of them a few months down the line.

Just got my copy of "The Enthusiast" with a picture of the XR 1200.

Not impressed.
Kind of ugly but I never liked the looks of the V-Rod either. Granted it (V-Rod) has power but not my cup of tea.

Not on my buy list if it becomes available.

I'm with ya Kev, good discussion and lots of passion.


I want an XR1200. Kev is a smart consumer, but I'm an emotional Ascot racetrack Spingsteen kinda guy.

Can I be first in line?

:p

I'm an emotional Ascot racetrack Spingsteen kinda guy.

Can I be first in line?

:p


Only if I can be second...

I bet the XR1200 will look killer in person. I am thinking that the pix aren't doing it justice.

Great move by the MoCo...let the hype build and see what happens.

If/when it comes here, the key will be for H-D to educate their dealers and salespeople as to what this bike is about. In my area, at least, they screwed this up with the Buell line, with the result that there was a mini-revolt among the dealers and many of them stopped carrying Buells entirely, and can't/won't even order parts for them. I hope they have some people like Kev and Bert and others here on board who have a passion for it, and understand the bike and where it fits in the scheme of things, and turn them loose on the dealers and sales types. Otherwise, it will be business as usual at the dealers, with the sales types trying to up-sell everyone who walks in the door into a BT of some sort, which could turn off more than a few potential buyers of this bike.

If/when it comes here, the key will be for H-D to educate their dealers and salespeople as to what this bike is about. In my area, at least, they screwed this up with the Buell line, with the result that there was a mini-revolt among the dealers and many of them stopped carrying Buells entirely, and can't/won't even order parts for them. I hope they have some people like Kev and Bert and others here on board who have a passion for it, and understand the bike and where it fits in the scheme of things, and turn them loose on the dealers and sales types. Otherwise, it will be business as usual at the dealers, with the sales types trying to up-sell everyone who walks in the door into a BT of some sort, which could turn off more than a few potential buyers of this bike.


We've got some dealers around here who were smart and hired dedicated sales guys (sport bike guys) to sell Buells and to help with Vrods.

Real enthusiasts who go to track days and really have a passion for sport riding.

Goes a long way to selling.

One of my buds was a salesguy for a dealer in Ohio, he'd sell every Vrod they could get their hands on, including buying out stock from other area dealers.

Kev

Sorry, "modern" motor vehicle marketing has nothing to do with "passion' or "enthusiasts". It has everything to do with maximum dollar in for minimum effort out. Just look at how few owners and sales people these days drive or ride the same brand they sell. In the case of motorcycles, many don't own one and don't ride them - it's JUST A BUSINESS/JOB! They make customers feel special with free hot dogs and coffe/latte stands - then rip them off for hundreds or even thousands of $$$ beyond MSRP. H-D, Moto-Guzzi, Ducati, & Triumph, still understand passion and enthusiasm at the factory level, but new dealerships are formed today by very well-off BUSINESS persons looking to become MILLIONAIRE'S. If they can sell us that $13,000 (MSRP) XR1200 for $15,000, they just smile as they get into their Maserati and go home to their gated, golf-course community. One of our local price-gouging H-D dealers was just killed in his new (two month old) helicopter. Althoough he did enjoy bikes he wasn't going to get an enormous lakefront home and a helicopter without price-gouging and service department overcharging.

I bet the XR1200 will look killer in person. I am thinking that the pix aren't doing it justice.

Great move by the MoCo...let the hype build and see what happens.

have seen it in the flesh they had 3 or 4 at the NEC show in birmingham

Fu$%ing awful is all I can say

exhaust have outlets 1/2" diameter, no way it can ever breath whenit is strangled

far too much plastic

probably designed by the same committe that hoisted the V rod on us

Sorry, "modern" motor vehicle marketing has nothing to do with "passion' or "enthusiasts".

In the case of motorcycles, many don't own one and don't ride them - it's JUST A BUSINESS/JOB!

but new dealerships are formed today by very well-off BUSINESS persons looking to become MILLIONAIRE'S. If they can sell us that $13,000 (MSRP) XR1200 for $15,000, they just smile as they get into their Maserati and go home to their gated, golf-course community.


Ya know, considering the way Harley has been selling at MSRP with tremendous service and accessory sales over the past 2 decades it would be hard for a dealer NOT to become a millionaire.

that said around here we have

Hannum's HD

Tommy Hannum's dad opened Hannum's HD in Media, PA 50 years ago. Just a decade ago his Mom was still answering the phone. And for years Tommy has drag raced Harleys very competitively on the pro circuit. Yeah they've got 3 locations now, and lots of employees, but they're ALL enthusiasts.

and

Smaltz's HD

Stretch Smaltz is a vietnam vet and liftetime harley rider who purchased a small hole in the wall franchise almost 2 decades ago now. He used to deliver EACH and EVERY bike personally. I've seen him discourage people from buying too much chrome before they get to know the bike cause he didn't want them to waste money. I've seen him turn away people with cash cause they had NO motorcycle experience or a license giving them MSF info and encouraging them to come back once they are licensed.

An BOTH of those establishments have sold Harleys AT MSRP without adding extras (if you didn't want them) for decades!

There are most definitely exceptions!

Kev

What's wrong with being a millionaire? Do you think the scroungers living out of shopping carts make anything happen? Nobody ever put a gun to my head and said I had to buy a Harley. If you feel a product or service is too expensive....don't buy it!

People remember the price gougers. Local dealer is still HATED by some local riders for the extreme greed they showed in the "sold out" years.

Comment on the cost of the XR1200 - I'm guessing between 9999 and 10499.

The cost of the actual parts isn't much of a factor here. Street Rods are not priced much different that the other Vrod models and they are carring more expensive parts. Harley knows their market.

to come back to what actually started this thread:

XLCR- A styling exercise using a stock engine and suspension. Guy looked at it, said "I can buy the base XL with the same chassis and suspension and engine, and style it the same for less money"

XR-1000- A souped up engine in the stock frame with the stock suspension and base styling. Guy looks at it, says "I can buy the base XL with the same frame and suspension and styling, and get more power for less money

I quite agree these 2 bikes were probably only styling excersises, hence I'm not too sure H-D ever wanted to sell more than they did, and I will also admit they were slow movers on the show rooms BUT,

what they have, the XR 1200 will never have, especially if H-D gears up to do loads...

- The XR 1200 will never have any of the following:

The Cafe Racer XLCR was not a committee design, it was a single minded Willie G. that pushed it when he wasn't so high up the scale, with great help from Jim Haubert, a master of the machine tool room, through an indifferent management... i.e it's got guts written all over it, whatever the sales were.

The XR 1000 was more of a factory decision, but nobody would take charge of the realisation and it fell on Dick O'Brien to see it through, on top of all the other racing work he had to supervize as well... On top of that, every one of them had had some work done by Jerry Branch's company, no small accolade as far as pedigree goes...

... the XR 1200? nice excersise but not much else behind it...

Patrick

to come back to what actually started this thread:



I quite agree these 2 bikes were probably only styling excersises, hence I'm not too sure H-D ever wanted top sell more than they did, and I will also admit they were slow movers on the show rooms BUT,

what they have, the XR 1200 will never have, especially if H-D gears up to do loads...

- The XR 1200 will never have any of the following:

The Cafe Racer XLCR was not a committee design, it was a single minded Willie G. that pushed it when he wasn't so high up the scale, with great help from Jim Haubert, a master of the machine tool room, through an indifferent management... i.e it's got guts written all over it, whatever the sales were.

The XR 1000 was more of a factory decision, but nobody would take charge of the realisation and it fell on Dick O'Brien to see it through, on top of all the other racing work he had to supervize as well... On top of that, every one of them had had some work done by Jerry Branch's company, no small accolade as far as pedigree goes...

... the XR 1200? nice excersise but not much else behind it...

Patrick
Interesting, I didnt know the details behind both of these bikes. I still liked the XR1000. It was the best HD had done performance wise other than the VROD and some of the Screamin Eagle bikes.
The XR1200. Its a total package. No it will not compete with the big bad Jap sportbikes but comparing it to other sportsters, it is light years ahead.
Look at the wheels, brakes, suspension, bodywork, engine and what sportster lover wouldnt be impressed?. Its has alot of buell pedigree in it and thats what I like and hopefully other performance minded people will too.
I owned an 883R. The bike looked great but wasnt nothing more that an 883. I turned it into a 1200 with buell heads, screamin eagle cams, exhaust etc and loved it after that, but now I can buy a bike twice as good , just as fast and still retain a warranty and good riding manners!
Homerun for HD. XR1200. Not perfect but the closest they have ever been!

no matter what anybody says in my opinion the xr1000 is still one of the sharpest looking sportys around. wish i had one.

Dear Kev,
The Buells sell for less because they don't sell well in the first place. I'm surprised Buell has managed to stay in business this long. Who do you know that owns a Buell? I live in So. Cal. (the Mecca of sport bike riding), and they are very scarce on the streets and canyons here. I've looked at them and ridden them, and I can tell you for sure that I would never buy one. The Buells are ugly, strange machines and this is the reason their sales have historically been poor. So that's why the Buells sell for a lower than expected (Harley-Davidson) price, because people don't want 'em!
DougT

I agree and the local Harley dealer dropped the line for this very reason. The Ulysses is a cool ride but the rest simply don't carry enough of a following to really make it worth while in some market places; SoCal being one of them.

What's wrong with being a millionaire? Do you think the scroungers living out of shopping carts make anything happen? Nobody ever put a gun to my head and said I had to buy a Harley. If you feel a product or service is too expensive....don't buy it!

Nothing wrong at all with being a millionaire. I'm just pointing out that MOST of the new dealerships of ALL brands are NOT being bought and run as family/enthusiast businesses as in the past. And while I do feel H-D's are more expensive than they should be for simple, 50 year old air-cooled technology, I don't have a problem with the established MSRP. I did make a 7 hour, 350 mile drive out of state to get MSRP, though.
It is amazing that the V-Rod is far more complex than the other H-D's, yet is very price competitive with other high-powered competitors and even comes in as a lightweight by comparison.

I agree and the local Harley dealer dropped the line for this very reason. The Ulysses is a cool ride but the rest simply don't carry enough of a following to really make it worth while in some market places; SoCal being one of them.

A fair number of them up here. When I go riding in the mountains I often see one or two ridden by guys 40+. I love sportbikes, but "strange" is a good label. They don't push my buttons, no matter how well they work. And against other air-cooled twin sportbikes, they hold their own quite well. I have a dyno chart showing a Buell with 20 ft. lbs. more torque than a Ducati on the low end. That's a HUGE difference, negating the need to row the gearbox as much. If one compares a Buell vs. a Sportster as far as performance and chassis technology, the Buell is a runaway bank-robber for value.

A fair number of them up here. When I go riding in the mountains I often see one or two ridden by guys 40+. I love sportbikes, but "strange" is a good label. They don't push my buttons, no matter how well they work. And against other air-cooled twin sportbikes, they hold their own quite well. I have a dyno chart showing a Buell with 20 ft. lbs. more torque than a Ducati on the low end. That's a HUGE difference, negating the need to row the gearbox as much. If one compares a Buell vs. a Sportster as far as performance and chassis technology, the Buell is a runaway bank-robber for value.

Agreed!


And it's a shame on the dealers in your area, we've got 2 dealerships (the 2 closest to my house) that are family run, enthusiast businessess.

Vote with your wallet, I try to give all of my motorcycle business to such establishments.

Agreed!


And it's a shame on the dealers in your area, we've got 2 dealerships (the 2 closest to my house) that are family run, enthusiast businessess.

Vote with your wallet, I try to give all of my motorcycle business to such establishments.

Ditto here Kev....my local is a 2nd generation and He treats me very fairly (got a break on MSRP)...and their service Dept has been great on warranty work for me. I try to spend $$$$$ there when I can.

Yup,Buells are a great value. I suppose because fewer consumers want them than say, Softails. Regardless of technical merit or lack of same, things are worth what people will pay for them. Sometimes chrome plated doggy-doo is more valuable than titanium. If that's what everybody wants.Would anyone in their right mind pay $8.00/gallon for water? Ask Evian or Perier.

Buell sells about 22,000 bikes per year. Although Harley sells far more other types of bikes, this is certainly more than enough to keep them in business.

Buell sells about 22,000 bikes per year. Although Harley sells far more other types of bikes, this is certainly more than enough to keep them in business.

WHERE THE HELL did you come up with that optimistic number?

From the HD website, investor relations or something like that


HARLEY-DAVIDSON, INC.
2005 Quarterly Motorcycle Shipments
(UNITS)

HARLEY-DAVIDSON® Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, 2005 All 651+cc

Sportster® 17,359, 15,238, 17,363, 20,265 70,225
Custom 34,286, 35,371, 40,730, 38,233, 148,620
Touring 25,071, 26,519, 29,492, 29,090, 110,172
76,716, 77,128, 87,585, 87,588, 329,017

Domestic 60,878, 58,997, 72,249, 74,383, 266,507
International 15,838, 18,131, 15,336, 13,205, 62,510
76,716, 77,128, 87,585, 87,588, 329,017

BUELL® UNITS
Buell 651+cc
2,042, 2,738, 2,616, 2,380, 9,776

Buell Total 2,469, 3,067, 2,914, 2,716, 11,166





Though it does look like Buell is set for a record setting year for 2006 (reports credit the Buellysses) - maybe 12k-12.5k of bikes.

Still no 22k, which is approaching Triumphs wordlwide sales this year of low 30kish.

http://investor.harley-davidson.com/shipments.cfm?bmLocale=en_US


Kev

:doh Oops. I've seen these numbers before and I thought I remembered about 22,000. I guess I used the way I estimate what stuff costs at HD: figure out what's reasonable and double it. Sorry . . .

:doh Oops. I've seen these numbers before and I thought I remembered about 22,000. I guess I used the way I estimate what stuff costs at HD: figure out what's reasonable and double it. Sorry . . .

:laugh :laugh :laugh

I know I've done that before.

Ya know, you see a figure and you think you remember it.

Or you take a SWAG and then realize, NOPE.

No harm, no foul.

Frankly I'd love to see them selling those numbers.

Now let's talk about Moto Guzzi sales figures, I think around 7k/year would be STELLAR for them.

Joe D and Stevo both are correct. Having Scott Parker involved in the video is another example of playing to emotion. Parker was (is) a great guy who always took time for he fans and he had (has) a lot of them. The connection is be like Scott and ride an XR. It does appeal at least to me.

It wil weigh 150 lbs more than an XB12, make less horsepower and cost quite a bit more. It will be a spectacular failure in this country and I can't wait to get one.

The above opinion is obviously my own and does not reflect the opinions of my way cool boss or HD.

It wil weigh 150 lbs more than an XB12, make less horsepower and cost quite a bit more.

I don't believe it is going to cost quite a bit more than an XB12...

But as for making less hp and weighing more, so do the rest of the 1200 Sportsters and they outsell both the XB12 and the R by spades...

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


(EDIT - took out the reference to the except 1200R, don't know WHAT my point was there, dividing my attention too much or something)

Let's see....... nothing more than cosmetics has the Nightster running $1,000 more than an "R". Doesn't bode well for the XR with actual special parts fitted. $11,000+ in the U.S.

Let's see....... nothing more than cosmetics has the Nightster running $1,000 more than an "R". Doesn't bode well for the XR with actual special parts fitted. $11,000+ in the U.S.

good point.

Let's see....... nothing more than cosmetics has the Nightster running $1,000 more than an "R". Doesn't bode well for the XR with actual special parts fitted. $11,000+ in the U.S.

Actually Duane (and Celtic) - not a good point.

Same could be said for the 1200C and the 1200L

Or, perhaps all 3 have something more than cosmetics.

In all 4 cases I'd say Harley priced the machine to where they think it will sell.

And around $10k is the current ceiling for Sportsters.

Anything more gets too close to Dyna territory.

Same goes when you compare it to a Buell.

Remember the XB12 comes in around $10-10.5k...

I think the XR may come in a smidge over the current Sportys, but I THINK (hope, pray) it won't be THAT much more or it will be a still birth.

K

Still-born it is! Actually, if they really thought it would sell in good numbers, it would be here already.

But as for making less hp and weighing more, so do the rest of the 1200 Sportsters (except the R) and they outsell both the XB12 and the R by spades...


Are you saying that the "R" weighs less and has more HP than the other 1200's? Looks like the 1200L, Nightster, and 50th Ann. are all lighter than the "R". I don't see any differences in the engines either, same bore & stroke, same compression, same torque @ the same rpm (4000). Where are you coming up with more HP? Looks to me like the XB12X has them all beat in HP and weight.

So, how many XR1200's have been sold in Europe? I said last fall it would take months to get production in gear and several people on here claimed I was full of BS, stating it only takes some phone calls to the foundry, etc., and CAD zipped from computer to computer to get this project off the deck in mere days. I mean, if foundries, machine shops, wheel makers, and plastic shops are sitting idle just waiting for H-D to give them a call, what's the hold-up? The Nightster is already in production and we knew nothing about it on New Years.

Still-born it is! Actually, if they really thought it would sell in good numbers, it would be here already.

You are really one negative mofo...

Glad you're such an expert on how Harley is doing things corporately right now.

As you WELL know, Harley has had quite the rough road trying to introduce function over form models for decades, maybe they're just getting smarter about it.

Are you saying that the "R" weighs less and has more HP than the other 1200's? Looks like the 1200L, Nightster, and 50th Ann. are all lighter than the "R". I don't see any differences in the engines either, same bore & stroke, same compression, same torque @ the same rpm (4000). Where are you coming up with more HP? Looks to me like the XB12X has them all beat in HP and weight.

Uhh, not sure WTF I was trying to say with the Except R.

I know the R doesn't weigh less than the other Sportys and makes the same hp sooooo??????

I dunno....

MY point was the HP and WEIGHT don't seem to be the determining factor in sales. I.E. the Buells make more and weight less, but don't outsell the 1200C.

So why would the fact that the buell makes more and weighs less mean they XR1200 won't seel automatically.

I have to admit the demographics should be closer on the XR1200 and the Buell, than the 1200C and the Buell, so I guess it could have SOME factor, but I guess I'm saying it is NOT JUST about weight and hp.

Kev

So, how many XR1200's have been sold in Europe? I said last fall it would take months to get production in gear and several people on here claimed I was full of BS, stating it only takes some phone calls to the foundry, etc., and CAD zipped from computer to computer to get this project off the deck in mere days. I mean, if foundries, machine shops, wheel makers, and plastic shops are sitting idle just waiting for H-D to give them a call, what's the hold-up? The Nightster is already in production and we knew nothing about it on New Years.

Well I'm certainly one who figured it could be out sooner rather than later.

I know that a UK magazine said it is a go.

I know that US dealers told me months ago that it was on their computer system and their electronic order forms, BUT it was blanked out with no way to order.

I don't know what goes into HD corporate's decision about timing for production, shipping etc but all indications are that it is on the way.

So your point is ???????? what exactly?

K

I'll make a random prediction. I bet we'll see the XR1200 engine and breathers in a less sporty handling package in the US. More power for straight line acceleration but less emphasis on the twisty road stuff. Imagine a 1200N with 85 hp. :rolleyes:

I'll make a random prediction. I bet we'll see the XR1200 engine and breathers in a less sporty handling package in the US. More power for straight line acceleration but less emphasis on the twisty road stuff. Imagine a 1200N with 85 hp. :rolleyes:

:(

Hope you're wrong....

HOPE!

Uhh, not sure WTF I was trying to say with the Except R.

I know the R doesn't weigh less than the other Sportys and makes the same hp sooooo??????

I dunno....

MY point was the HP and WEIGHT don't seem to be the determining factor in sales. I.E. the Buells make more and weight less, but don't outsell the 1200C.

So why would the fact that the buell makes more and weighs less mean they XR1200 won't seel automatically.

I have to admit the demographics should be closer on the XR1200 and the Buell, than the 1200C and the Buell, so I guess it could have SOME factor, but I guess I'm saying it is NOT JUST about weight and hp.

Kev


No problem , just thought I might have missed something. It's all good.

My point Kev, was that while the XR1200 prototype has been dancing at all the European venues like all good protypes do, the Nightster was already heading from design shop to marketing/board room and right into production. H-D typically takes baby steps. Look how many years they waited to release a big-torque engine for the big-twins? They were pretty much the last kid on the block. Last fall I said there was no way we would see the XR1200 before summer. I still hold that view - if we see it at all. We might only see two or three components that were the most highly rated by viewers, attached to a special edition Sportster. And Kev, as you have correctly pointed out previously, the Sportster "R's" are already on the low end of Sportster sales. Add on some increased cost for the mechanical goodies of the XR1200 - let's say only $9,600 MSRP - and despite it's increased thunder, is it REALLY what "Sportster" buyers want when they already buy far fewer of the (slightly) more sporting oriented "R's"?

What MOST H-D consumers want is fairly well summed up in the "Creed" mentality.

What MOST H-D consumers want is fairly well summed up in the "Creed" mentality.


Gas tanks designed in 1936 and freight-train sized headlights...............

Doesn't leave much room for modern rides that really compete with other brands - merely updated antiques. No room at Sturgis for an XR1200 - so why build it.

First off, dealers have never given great numbers on trades. They weren't motivated too.

And the market isn't "flooded" it's finally JUST barely reaching saturation point, like EVERY OTHER manufacturer.

Harley was smart and created a new market with their upgrades. People are going to want them because of the bigger cubes, 6-speed bla bla bla, but that doesn't mean they NEED to create a market for their used bikes.

I guess it depends on where you live but I have never seen as many Harley machines in the likes of Cycle Trader, Craig's list or E-bay. In the trader there are pages and pages of Harley machines and while there has always been a few pages, nothing like it is now and a used Sporty is worthless regardless of the goodies......

My point Kev, was that while the XR1200 prototype has been dancing at all the European venues like all good protypes do, the Nightster was already heading from design shop to marketing/board room and right into production. H-D typically takes baby steps. Look how many years they waited to release a big-torque engine for the big-twins? They were pretty much the last kid on the block. Last fall I said there was no way we would see the XR1200 before summer. I still hold that view - if we see it at all. We might only see two or three components that were the most highly rated by viewers, attached to a special edition Sportster. And Kev, as you have correctly pointed out previously, the Sportster "R's" are already on the low end of Sportster sales. Add on some increased cost for the mechanical goodies of the XR1200 - let's say only $9,600 MSRP - and despite it's increased thunder, is it REALLY what "Sportster" buyers want when they already buy far fewer of the (slightly) more sporting oriented "R's"?



No Arguement with all that.... but I'm still optimistic. ;)


KY - I've been watching used Harley sales for more than a decade and there isn't much of a difference between today and a decade ago, at least in the Northeast.

Prices are a little lower, that's about it. But there have always been pages and pages more Harleys than most other brands/styles.

I guess it depends on where you live but I have never seen as many Harley machines in the likes of Cycle Trader, Craig's list or E-bay. In the trader there are pages and pages of Harley machines and while there has always been a few pages, nothing like it is now and a used Sporty is worthless regardless of the goodies......

When companies make a lot of desirable upgrades, customers also like to change up. It makes for a buyer's market in used goods. As the number of H-D sales increase, so does the number of people pulled into the social circle (the black hole?) because a few friends have gotten back into biking, so they decide to give it a shot and join them - only to discover that motorcycling is not their cup of tea. Eventually the seldom used machines hit the Cycle Trader. More buyer's market.

What MOST H-D consumers want is fairly well summed up in the "Creed" mentality.


Gimme dem skulls man....I'm a bad azz mofo:doh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

Hy.
This is how an updated XR Sportster should look like.
http://jeep.cfasp.de/upload/336595.jpg
Why didn't they ask Storz?
Ralph

have seen it in the flesh they had 3 or 4 at the NEC show in birmingham

Fu$%ing awful is all I can say


I second that. I saw the XR1200 less than a month ago at the Bike Expo in Padova (Italy): plastic everywhere, heavy design, seems like a patchwork of ideas instead of a truly and innovative new Sportster project.

And the most important thing: it does not have 1/100 of the fascination and glamour of a XR1000 or a XLCR. :frownthre
I recently spoke with my dealer: he really hopes HD is not going to build it. At least in Italy, this is not going to sell...

And the most important thing: it does not have 1/100 of the fascination and glamour of a XR1000 or a XLCR. :frownthre


Those are ANTIQUES, how the f'ck do you expect fascination or glamour out of a new production bike? The mystique of the XR1000 and XLCR came from their rarity.

Those are ANTIQUES, how the f'ck do you expect fascination or glamour out of a new production bike?

You want some examples? Here you are:
Ducati Paul Smart
http://www.advancedmotorsports.com/images/classifieds/smart%20sport%20classic.jpg

Triumph Scrambler
http://www.triumphchepassione.com/immagini/gamma_modelli_Triumph_2005/scrambler/triumph-scrambler.jpg

Or, if you prefer:;)
http://www.motobiz.de/fotos/86.jpg

Would you deny that these bikes (like them or not) are both new and glamouros? Aren't they built using new production systems but with an eye on what the buyer expects from that particular brand history? I am sorry but the XR1200 is not follwing this path, neither for style nor for performance.

The mystique of the XR1000 and XLCR came from their rarity.

I do not have a crystal ball but my opinion stays the same: I doubt that in 20 years the XR1200 will have the same aura of the XR1000/XLCR.

Just my 2 cents:)

You want some examples? Here you are:
Ducati Paul Smart

Triumph Scrambler

Or, if you prefer:;)

Would you deny that these bikes (like them or not) are both new and glamouros? Aren't they built using new production systems but with an eye on what the buyer expects from that particular brand history? I am sorry but the XR1200 is not follwing this path, neither for style nor for performance.



NO I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING "GLAMOROUS" about a motorcycle!

ESPECIALLY THAT UGLY SCRAMBLER!

Now the Paul Smart Duc is kinda cool, but I'd prefer the GT1000.

The Thruxton is kinda cool too.

And I don't do "Posertails" (though IF I ever was to, THAT would be the model).

Now SURE each of those bikes evocs something nostalgic that the majority of the buying public EXPECTS from their history.

But the XR1200 departs from what the majority of the public EXPECTS and that's a good thing. Stagnation is nothing to be proud of.

The XR harkens back to another part of Harley's history.

Like back when they were successful at building performance machines.

Seems like a good place to go if they hope to build more SPORTy machines now.

Yuk. What the heck is this? Triumph's version of the Honda CL450? :rolleyes:

http://www.triumphchepassione.com/immagini/gamma_modelli_Triumph_2005/scrambler/triumph-scrambler.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/%7Erdarke/clk3rack.jpg

I'm no Triumph historian, but I was under the impression the Scrambler is another retro which harkens back to dirt track racers on Bonnies in your day ;) If so, I'd expect the Honda was a copy of that, like the Ascot was inspired by an XR, or the XS650 special and original Kawi parallel twin was inspired by the Bonnie etc...

I'm no Triumph historian, but I was under the impression the Scrambler is another retro which harkens back to dirt track racers on Bonnies in your day ;) If so, I'd expect the Honda was a copy of that, like the Ascot was inspired by an XR, or the XS650 special and original Kawi parallel twin was inspired by the Bonnie etc...

I'm sure you're right. It's just the CL450 popped into my head when I saw that photo. A couple of people I rode with when I was a teenager had 450s and one was a CL. I thought it looked stupid with those pipes up like that.

And I agree. The Honda 450 twin and the Yamaha 650 twin were definitely patterned after the Triumphs back then. Even I recognized that way back then. But Kawasaki's 4-stroke twin that was introduced in 74-75 wasn't, if memory serves me correctly. Another guy I rode with got one of the first KZ400s off the showroom floor and I remember it reminded me of the Honda CB360 another buddy of mine had. Neither one could take my Yamaha R5-C stoplight to stoplight. hehe

http://w1.bikepics.com/pics/2006%5C02%5C02%5Cbikepics-514207-full.jpg

http://www.kz400.com/History%20bilder/Models/1975%20S.jpg

http://lawrenceotoole.com/images/r5images/images/DSC01392.jpg

(This is exactly what my R5-C looked like. Same color and everything.)

The XR harkens back to another part of Harley's history.

Like back when they were successful at building performance machines.


I love HD motorsport history (both as HD and as Aermacchi-AMF-HD) and that's exactly the point.
IMHO, the fact is that if the final product will be similar to the XR1200 prototype we have seen in european bike shows, MoCo will completely miss the target. That bike does not recall the heritage of the successful past and cannot compete with other manifacturers SPORTy machines...

Oh, by the way: I hate the Triumph Scrambler too :D just wanted to give you an example :D

I love HD motorsport history (both as HD and as Aermacchi-AMF-HD) and that's exactly the point.
IMHO, the fact is that if the final product will be similar to the XR1200 prototype we have seen in european bike shows, MoCo will completely miss the target. That bike does not recall the heritage of the successful past and cannot compete with other manifacturers SPORTy machines...


And I DISAGREE.

I think it both evokes the image of the XR-750 AND will fair quite well against machines like the Griso, the Thruxton, maybe some of the baby monsters. NO it probably won't hang with a GT1000, but then it doesn't HAVE TO, and neither does any other Sportster soooooooo.

And I DISAGREE.

OK Kev, we are on different sides about this: XLF is great because we can easily share our opinions ;)
I will be glad to read your impressions as soon as you will be able to see the XR1200 in the flesh. For the moment, please accept a virtual beer :cheers

OK Kev, we are on different sides about this: XLF is great because we can easily share our opinions ;)
I will be glad to read your impressions as soon as you will be able to see the XR1200 in the flesh. For the moment, please accept a virtual beer :cheers

Grazie and I'd like to return the virtual beer!

I will post my opinions the SECOND I get to see one in real life. But HOPEFULLY I'll also be able to follow with the ride impression, because if my dealer EVER gets one, he knows I want it! ;)

Besides, it will look good next to my Americanized-Guzzi, no?

I love HD motorsport history (both as HD and as Aermacchi-AMF-HD) and that's exactly the point.
IMHO, the fact is that if the final product will be similar to the XR1200 prototype we have seen in european bike shows, MoCo will completely miss the target. That bike does not recall the heritage of the successful past and cannot compete with other manifacturers SPORTy machines...

Oh, by the way: I hate the Triumph Scrambler too :D just wanted to give you an example :D


Yes,nothing more to say.
The XR 1200 like I saw at german bike shows is a piece of crap.
Ralph

Yuk. What the heck is this? Triumph's version of the Honda CL450? :rolleyes:

http://www.triumphchepassione.com/immagini/gamma_modelli_Triumph_2005/scrambler/triumph-scrambler.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/%7Erdarke/clk3rack.jpg

Well, the pipes are on the wrong side of the Triumph when compared with the original, but Triumph and Honda both were doing this in the long agos 60s. The Triumph version was the Trophy 500 and 650 and, if my memory is correct, Honda had a 305 Scrambler before the original 450 was ever thought of. Heck, even Norton had one.

Well, the pipes are on the wrong side of the Triumph when compared with the original, but Triumph and Honda both were doing this in the long agos 60s. The Triumph version was the Trophy 500 and 650 and, if my memory is correct, Honda had a 305 Scrambler before the original 450 was ever thought of. Heck, even Norton had one.

Looks like a replica of the 1970 Trophy 650 (TR6C). Pipes were on the other side an shifter on right side, brake on left side. First new motorcycle I had bought an rode off show room floor for 1000.00. Is was a nice bike. Dumped the side pipes an put a set of TT pipes on it. Also had a 1966 305 Honda Scrambler.

Looks like a replica of the 1970 Trophy 650 (TR6C). Pipes were on the other side an shifter on right side, brake on left side. First new motorcycle I had bought an rode off show room floor for 1000.00. Is was a nice bike. Dumped the side pipes an put a set of TT pipes on it. Also had a 1966 305 Honda Scrambler.

I like to think that the shift lever and brake on the old Triumphs and Sportsters were on the correct side and they're now on the wrong side. Gee, I rode so many different machines that I sometimes had to remember what was where but the ride side shift and left foot brake still seems the most natural. Heck, even the old left sided shifters weren't all down for first with neutral between first and second and the Norton was both upside down and backwards whe