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icebob
18th October 2006, 15:34
Last spring I finally paid the taxes. Vance&Hines Shortshot staggered, Kuriakyn Skull air cleaner. Got the dealer to do the carb for me. They just changed the pilot for a 47. Was not happy how the bike ran. Went back last week-end and ask to be tuned on the Dyno. Here's the chart. Tell me what you think. I was amazed to see the size of the pilot they put in there. The bike is really different now. When the guy started it up, I looked to see if he removed the baffle!!!! The sound was completely different, a lot louder. I only ran it for 15 miles(raining like a son of a gun here!!!) but the pwer band seem a lot smoother than before. Now I can't wait to see what kind of mileage I will get.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3903/mydynojd5.jpg

icebob
18th October 2006, 16:50
Forgot to say the size of the pilot, they put a 60 in there!!!!! That don't sound right!

chrishajer
18th October 2006, 16:54
60 pilot is insane. I was thinking the 47 was the one in there still. I guess I could heave read the dyno notes.

If there is truly a 60 pilot in there, I would think there's an intake leak or something otherwise making it too lean. The blue run, where it was really lean off idle, seems to point to it being really lean with the 47 pilot.

I would think there's an intake leak, or something wrong with the petcock, or something. That jetting is abnormal. However, I see they listed the carb mod as "Frieze jet kit" which could be almost anything. Maybe they do something else that requires making the pilot so large. Maybe they drill out an air bleed or something? Definitely worth asking them about.

--Chris

icebob
18th October 2006, 17:08
Thanks Chris, the thing I found weird is that before they Dyno tuned it (with the 47 pilot in there) my mileage went down pretty bad (stock was doing about 180 miles on a full tank, after the stage 1 mod went down to about 120 miles on a full tank) so I was thinking the bike was too rich. Also after that I never have to use the choke to start the bike, even when really cold outside, and correct me if I'm wrong, I tought that was another sign of the bike being too rich. But the Dyno chart shows the opposite. Do I need to read the Jetting 101 thread again!!!???

chrishajer
18th October 2006, 17:14
There are some threads on checking for an intake leak. I think I would start there. The problem is, it's SOOOO rich now, the intake leak test might not show anything. Maybe you can ask the dealer why they used a 60 pilot, if there's something about the way they modify the carb that requires that large a pilot. If there isn't something about they way they do it, then I think your pilot is large to compensate for a lean condition, somehow, most likely an intake leak.

Checking for intake and exhaust leaks
http://www.xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=39766&highlight=intake+leak

There are many threads, not sure if I found the best one. I just searched for 'intake leak.'

--Chris

Roadster_Rider
18th October 2006, 17:15
holy shit thats waaay too rich... i run a 48 here at sea level and it runs perfectly. If you dont have to use the choke, its too rich.

icebob
18th October 2006, 17:18
holy shit thats waaay too rich... i run a 48 here at sea level and it runs perfectly. If you dont have to use the choke, its too rich.
I didn't have to use the choke before they put the 60 in there. Now I need it!!!!!I'm all confused now !!! let me check if there's something else than coffee in my mug!!!

Jimbos883
18th October 2006, 17:22
They also raised the needle with 2 washers which richens it up in the mid range also. This setup is very odd to say the least. A good indication that you are on the rich side is the fact you don't need to use the enrichener to start when cold.

Have you had a chance to look at your plugs?

chrishajer
18th October 2006, 17:23
Intake leak, maybe getting worse, makes things very difficult to get a handle on. Maybe they were confused by the jetting it required too.

I think I would check for an intake leak. My guess is you will end up with either a 45 or 48 when everything is in order. Unless they modified the carb in some way, other than the jetting.

--Chris

icebob
18th October 2006, 18:16
Have you had a chance to look at your plugs?


Just did that. Holy shoot it's black like hell!!! Here's a pic:

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7241/1000655ao3.jpg

Just sent an e-mail to the dealer requesting some answer. Hope to get a fast answer. Another question, is it safe to ride the bike like that? Can I do any damage?

chrishajer
18th October 2006, 18:26
You will foul out the plugs and could possibly be stranded. And excessive fuel can wash the oil off the cylinder walls, which would be bad. So, I would wait to hear what they say. Lean is actually much worse, but it's certainly not running well right now. Something is going on and needs to be addressed.

--Chris

MOREHP
18th October 2006, 18:38
Get a propane torch unlit of coarse and pass it around the intake manifold where it joins the heads. I am willing to bet the idle will stumble and there is a leak.

icebob
18th October 2006, 18:57
My problem right now is I don't know if I can trust that dealer. When you pay to get your bike tuned and they don't find anything wrong in the fact that they need to use that large pilot to get it to run right, so I'm not sure they really know what they are doing. Would you have your bike tuned by them?

chrishajer
18th October 2006, 19:02
I would not, personally.

I have only one question for them: what did they do to the carb and why did it need a 60 pilot jet and is that normal for a 1200 XL (I guess that's three questions.) I seriously doubt they did anything to the carb that would require a 60 pilot normally, and I would guess they were surprised by the need for it. But I would still ask. People have come up with all sorts of mods for the CV carb, and there's no way to know all of them.

That said, I still think you need to check for an intake leak. I would put the 45 or 48 in there and see how it runs. I would guess it would run terribly, since it probably has an intake leak. So, I would check for intake leaks (heck, maybe a bolt or two fell out and it's really apparent with a visual check), rejet with a 45, and see how it runs. Then go talk to the dealer.

You're too far away from me to help you out :)

--Chris

ratscoot
18th October 2006, 19:50
Do you have to change anything on the '07 fuell injected sportsters when swapping an exhaust? I guess the CPU calculates the amount of air and injects accordily.

rottenralph
18th October 2006, 20:26
I am amazed at how much h.p. these new bikes make almost stock. I had to change just about everything to get smilar H.P. I will make sure I don't race any new bikes till I get up to 90 h.p. Good luck finding your a/f mixture problems.

Jimbos883
18th October 2006, 20:41
I notice that your bike is a 2005, any chance that it is still under warranty? If so take it back and tell them to check things out.

As a matter of fact I'd bring the bike back to the dealer and have him fix it right you paid good money to get it fixed the first time so hold them to it. You know that's the problem with most of the guys on this board they have the opinion that the dealers cann't do things right so they never take their bikes back to get them corrected. The dealers will provide poor work only if you let them.

I had a similar problem with a dealer that did some work on my bike, ran like s??t when the gave it back to me, service writer increased the RPM to about 1500 and told me it was good to go. I just went directly to the service manager and explained my problem, he took the bike in and fixed the problem no questions asked. As an added bonus I have a great relationship with the service guys now.

Something's not right with the intake system on your bike and the dealer should of been able to correct the problem. Damn any good dyno guy should of known that a 60 was wrong for a 1200. Get ahold of the dealer and explain the problem in a civil manner.

icebob
18th October 2006, 22:44
Yes Jimbo, still under warranty. Will go down there tomorrow and have a chat with them. I just lost a little bit of confidence in them

rider1951
18th October 2006, 23:49
Icebob

I had the same problem with my dealer. They dyno'd the bike and said it was a little rich with the 45, 175 and N65A needle in it. I asked them to lean it out and make it right and they ended up with 1 shim on the needle and a 48 jet. The bike ran great but my mileage dropped 6 mpg to 42 mpg. The line on the dyno sheet looked good though. I took it back to them and told them to fix it and they dyno'd it and told me they put the 45 back in. The line looked better than before but then when I checked to see what jet was in it was still the 48. I've sinced learned how is the carb is to work on and have rejetted it back to 45 , 180 and stock needle with 1 shim. My gas mileage is back up to 47-48 mpg on the open roads.

With the 48 and N65A with 1 shim I didn't have to hardly use the enrichener at all but the plugs were black. I would think you wouldn't want any thing bigger than a 48. Shimming the needle will kill gas mileage I found out.

I believe I'm at 600 feet above sea level here.

Good luck

icebob
25th October 2006, 22:19
Little update. Service manager called me last saturday. He said that a 60 pilot was really weird, and that he would like to personnally look at the bike. Dropped the bike Monday. They called me back today to tell me that the bike is ready.When I asked if they find anything, they said no, but we tuned it leaner. I will probably pick it up tomorrow. Should I ask to remove the plugs so I can look at them? Will that be a good way to tell if the tuning is right? I will post the dyno chart when I come back.

cootertwo
25th October 2006, 22:47
Sheet! I didn't even know they made a jet that big! Now I don't mean to be harsh, but any idiot that has worked on at least ONE Harley with a CV carb, would know that a 60 low jet is cwazy. Maybe he thought it was a 09! makes about as much sense. I had a 48 in my 883/1200, and it was a bit too much. Went back to a 45. It had a 42 in it, as a 06 883. I also settled on a 180 high, and one washer under the needle, which I could probably do without. I get about 120/130 miles before I hit reserve. And I run the crap out of it. 7000 rev limit. Yes, I ride it like I stole it, just ask the local gestapo guys.

icebob
25th October 2006, 23:35
:bump :bump

supercharger
26th October 2006, 04:55
Icebob, the first thing I would check is that the doofus at H-D put some fresh plugs in there. If he didn't you need to asap.

Ride it at least a few hundred miles and note how it runs. If everything feels right pull the plugs and just make sure they look OK. I don't think you have an intake leak...I think the Harley tech is smoking chronic.

I have a 05 1200c and I got great numbers with a 44 pilot(summer) and I run a 45 in winter. Two shims under the washer and 2 1/4 turns out on the mixture screw. Runs like an bull with its balls on fire and gets 45MPG.

Gotta love those XP heads :banadanc

SteveB
28th October 2006, 17:29
I'm not trying to be negative here but aren't those pipes more acclimated to high compression, long duration cams and big inches?