XR1200 MSRP Poll [Archive] - The Sportster and Buell Motorcycle Forum

Kev M

14th November 2006, 18:43

Kev, you think that will compete with a Sportster? I think the target markets are totally different. And no, you're not the average consumer, since you already HAVE a Guzzi.

--Chris

No I said I thought that would compete with an XR1200 :p

The XR1200 is moving into a segment that's a tad different than the typical Sportster segment.

As I've said before, populated by things like some Guzzis (Griso, but moreso by this new 940 Custom which is spanning the bridge between the old Californias like mine, and the new Griso), Ducati Sportclassics, Triumph Thruxton/Scrambler and the like.

Kev

Gone

14th November 2006, 19:19

I see them with a price tag starting with a 12k, includes delivery, steeler prep, tax, tags. i know they were pretty proud of the 100th aniversary models especially the 1200's.

Ole

14th November 2006, 19:21

Don't care how much it costs...I don't want one anyway :laugh
Strewth for me matey! :roflblack

makarov

14th November 2006, 20:51

Kev M

15th November 2006, 00:22

jack82

15th November 2006, 03:12

If they don't sell at $11,000 they will be discounted - they certainly don't cost anymore to build than an XL1200R.

I woulda thought they'd cost a fair bit more to build.......

It's a whole new bike with alota new parts.......and waaaayy upspec compared to a 1200R.........not to mention R&D costs that companies like to recoup..

jack82

15th November 2006, 03:26

I am buying the uly. In my opinion a better allaround bike.

:iagree ..........you wont be dissapointed..........;)

Mr.Mow

15th November 2006, 04:20

Considering this is being released in Europe first (only?) - I would say the Ducati's and Guzzi's could definitely be considered its competition. Even here, the more traditional potential Harley owner is probably going to go for the 1200C model or the cheapest big twin they can afford. I think they are hoping that the XR is going to crossover into the non-squid sportbike/naked bike buyer. As far as the poll I put that it *should* cost less than $9000 considering what you can get from other manufacturers, but we will see what they go for. Whatever they can get away with most likely. If they don't sell at $11,000 they will be discounted - they certainly don't cost anymore to build than an XL1200R.

Problem is it never will compete with a Ducati monster or Guzzi.. The Monster will be a better performing, better handling bike.. And people who are buying Guzzis are buying them for very different reasons. Maybe it will compete with the Ducati Classics.. But I suspect in 5 years time they are going to be horribly dated anyway.

Infact, trying to compete against Italian manufacturers is a waste of time, people don't buy Italian bikes for on paper specs or for cheap prices.. Ask Honda just how well their 'VTwin Superbike' sold.. Which on paper put out more power, handled better and was cheaper than a Ducati 996.

Having owned 2 Monsters, I have to say if the XR and the Monster were the same price, I'd struggle to pony up the cash for the XR.. I couldn't do it for the Buell when I took one for a ride.

relayer4u

15th November 2006, 05:21

I think Buell, as a product line, is a bust for the MoCo.

Make an XR883 with the XB9 motor, speedo only, single disk and non adjustabale suspension.

Then give the rest of us the XR1200 / XB12 with 80 or 90 crank HP, fully adjustable suspension (and stiffer springs this time dammit!), and the tach.

Get rid of the Buell line entirely and make the price $500 more vs the regular 883 and 1200R. More money for the MoCo, more choices for us!

I didn't vote cause wishful thinking is a waste of time.

The poll shold be "What is the most you would pay for an XR1200."

:doh

jack82

15th November 2006, 06:09

I think Buell, as a product line, is a bust for the MoCo.

Get rid of the Buell line entirely

.............:laugh :laugh :laugh ............

..............followed by..............

...............:spank :spank :spank ..........

relayer4u

15th November 2006, 06:36

Ouch!

jmho, deal with it.

Kev M

15th November 2006, 18:00

Problem is it never will compete with a Ducati monster or Guzzi.. The Monster will be a better performing, better handling bike.. And people who are buying Guzzis are buying them for very different reasons. Maybe it will compete with the Ducati Classics.. But I suspect in 5 years time they are going to be horribly dated anyway.

Infact, trying to compete against Italian manufacturers is a waste of time, people don't buy Italian bikes for on paper specs or for cheap prices.. Ask Honda just how well their 'VTwin Superbike' sold.. Which on paper put out more power, handled better and was cheaper than a Ducati 996.

Having owned 2 Monsters, I have to say if the XR and the Monster were the same price, I'd struggle to pony up the cash for the XR.. I couldn't do it for the Buell when I took one for a ride.

WAIT A MINUTE, you're arguing against yourself.

In the first paragraph you're saying they can't compete because of specs.

In the 2nd and 3rd you're showing why they CAN compete, irregardless of specs.

And is the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs which support my points. You don't have to eat the other bike for lunch to "compete" or "cross-shop"

I think people buy Guzzis, Ducatis AND Harleys based on a lot of things other than JUST pure specs. But you have to be in the same ballpark. I mean, to cross-shop two bikes, they need to share some commonalities.

And I think there are plenty of commonalities. Different strengths and weaknesses and particulars in styling, but certainly lots of common ground.

Kev

Kev M

15th November 2006, 18:03

I think Buell, as a product line, is a bust for the MoCo.

Get rid of the Buell line entirely and make the price $500 more vs the regular 883 and 1200R. More money for the MoCo, more choices for us!

This point has been debated elsewhere, but I believe that Buell's sales figures this year will eclipse Moto Guzzis.

At least the sell more Buells than some manufacturers (Guzzi, Ducati, how about KTM or Husq or Aprillia) sell total bikes in the US.

So "bust" is a relative term.

I don't agree with the rest of your plan because Buell is slowly but surely making inroads for Harley in another area. And diversification is good.

As does the Vrod line.

As I THINK WILL the XR line.

But time will tell.

Kev

makarov

15th November 2006, 20:39

I struggle with the aesthetic of Buell's - I liked the way the tube frame models looked. The newer ones are growing on me though. The Ulysses is one I would consider owning. The styling is more appropriate on that bike, just look at a BMW 1200GS and how funky they are. For a naked bike I like the classic look of a cafe racer or flat tracker. The other issue I had with Buells until the release of the Ulysses is the fact they are so small. I'm 6'4 and skinny, I can tuck in and fit on a small bike, but really feel more comfortable on something bigger. I don't think the Buell line is a bust by any means. The Uly is getting rave reviews.

When I said the XR shouldn't cost more to build than the XL1200 it was also in comparison to say a Ducati Monster. What can you buy from other manufacturers (that have the same costs as Harley) for $9000? What are wages in Italy like? The Monsters come with good brakes and shocks for a decent price. The XL1200's sell simply because they are a Harley and people don't want to upgrade an 883 themselves. Should an XL1200 cost that much more than an 883?

Harleys sell in Asia and Europe because they are Harleys. American icons. The same reason Marlboro cigarettes sell there. And Levis. They are good bikes, but it could be argued that Honda or Yamaha build a better bike for the money. But it isn't a Harley.... I think it will be interesting to see how Harley markets the XR both in Europe and the US.

Kev M

15th November 2006, 22:07

Makarov - some good points.

Some related thoughts.

Aesthetics - for years I kept wondering how BMW was going to survive when each time they redesigned a bike it got uglier. Then when they came out with some REALLY ugly oilheads I realized that each generation made the previous one suddenly look better to me. ;)

As for price and performance comparisons, here are some bikes I considered purchasing this summer. They are ranked loosely in order of slowest to quickest quarter mile. You'll notice that price increases with performance as much as it does with CCs.

Specs are Bike - Weight (dry, lbs) - Torque (ft. lbs.) @ rpm / HP @ rpm - MSRP)

Stock HD 1200 (rear wheel) - 68 ft. lbs. @ 3500 / 59 hp @ 5500
HD 1200R - 550 - 79 @ 3500 / 66 (RWHP stock, 72-76 RWHP stage 1) - $8595

Buell XB9 - 390 - 70 @ 5500 / 92 @ 7500 - $8895 (SX or R)

Duc M620 - 370 - 41 @ 6750 / 63 @ 9500 - $6995

Duc M695 - 370 - 45 @ 6750 / 73 @ 8500 - $6995

M800 S2R - 381 - 53 @ 6500 / 77 @ 8250 - $8495

S2R 1000 - 392 - 69 @ 6000 / 95 @ 8000 - $9995

Buell X12 - 395 - 84 @ 6000 / 103 @ 6800 - $10,495 (Scg)

Is the Ducati M800 or M1000 each THAT much more expensive to build than a M620 or M695?

In this country at least, a bike with more CCs and more performance can almost always command more (at least when comparing similar styles, as there are plenty of 600SS bikes that sell for less and outperform this whole field, but they are in a different category).

Mr.Mow

15th November 2006, 22:50

WAIT A MINUTE, you're arguing against yourself.

In the first paragraph you're saying they can't compete because of specs.

In the 2nd and 3rd you're showing why they CAN compete, irregardless of specs.

And is the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs which support my points. You don't have to eat the other bike for lunch to "compete" or "cross-shop"

I think people buy Guzzis, Ducatis AND Harleys based on a lot of things other than JUST pure specs. But you have to be in the same ballpark. I mean, to cross-shop two bikes, they need to share some commonalities.

And I think there are plenty of commonalities. Different strengths and weaknesses and particulars in styling, but certainly lots of common ground.

Kev

Yes and no..
Obviously you will always have shoppers who DO buy based on Specs.. The XR won't be able to compete there..

But reality is, majority of people who buy Italian motorcycles (and American really) are buying because of the emotional factor..

Now if you are shopping for something 'fast, red and Italian' you wouldn't give the XR a second look.
If you were looking for a sexy naked bike.. 'fraid its the Italians again.
If you were looking for on paper specs.. Italian..

I personally LIKE the XR.. But if its going to go head to head with Euro bikes price wise, it will lose.. Look on these boards, even Harley owners are not knowing much about HDs racing history.. most of the world know Ducati, they are the 'Ferarri of bikes'. HD don't have a known racing history for most people, this will confuse them.

I honestly can't see who the XR is aiming at, Harley is a joke in 90% of biking circles, honestly, look at half of the f***tards who blat about on drag bike equipped chrome sleds with their gay little scull caps and those queer little face masks trying to be all 'bad boy'. I can appreciate HD is tring to break free of that market, but they may just struggle.

And again, in all honesty.. Outside of America very few people know or care what flat track is.

relayer4u

16th November 2006, 02:22

Buell has a new 07 model, the XB12Ss with the longer wheelbase Uly frame and without most of the Uly ugly:

http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/lightning/xb12ss/features.asp

Should be more comfy for bigger humans!

sportysrock

16th November 2006, 03:45

It should be $9500 and you shouldn't have to change a bunch of parts to "make it your own" I mean comfortable.
Hey Harley, feel free to sell it for less.

xl1200r

16th November 2006, 04:31

This is like taking a survey that asks how much you'd be willing to pay for a movie ticket. The theaters get this info and then charge a little more than what most people say because they know you're willing to pay it.

I say the XR1200 should cost about $6000.

Kev M

16th November 2006, 05:01

Yes and no..
Obviously you will always have shoppers who DO buy based on Specs.. The XR won't be able to compete there..

But reality is, majority of people who buy Italian motorcycles (and American really) are buying because of the emotional factor..

Now if you are shopping for something 'fast, red and Italian' you wouldn't give the XR a second look.
If you were looking for a sexy naked bike.. 'fraid its the Italians again.
If you were looking for on paper specs.. Italian..

I disagree, what you are stating is that it is all gotta be black OR white, and my experience shows that the majority falls somewhere in between.

I've known many buyers who are not JUST brand loyal, but who are style loyal. Something fast, red and Italian can mean more than just Ducati, and some of those guys also cross-shop Japanese bikes, and some of them also cross-shop Harleys.

I personally LIKE the XR.. But if its going to go head to head with Euro bikes price wise, it will lose.. Look on these boards, even Harley owners are not knowing much about HDs racing history.. most of the world know Ducati, they are the 'Ferarri of bikes'. HD don't have a known racing history for most people, this will confuse them.

I honestly can't see who the XR is aiming at, Harley is a joke in 90% of biking circles, honestly, look at half of the f***tards who blat about on drag bike equipped chrome sleds with their gay little scull caps and those queer little face masks trying to be all 'bad boy'. I can appreciate HD is tring to break free of that market, but they may just struggle.

Uh, I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that Guzzi has a longer and stronger racing history, but alas, it's not as strong in most recent history.

But that doesn't stop people from seeking them out.

And yeah there are plenty of Harley neanderthals, but there are more and more open-minded new owners (see a good percentage of this board).

I guess this whole thing is not about limits and extremes, but about finding new middle grounds, blends, commonalities.

JohnT

19th November 2006, 19:08

From the H-D 'Enthusiast' magazine article on Sportsters:

"Prototypes aren't new to Harley-Davidson, but showing them to the public is. Whether or not this XR 1200 prototype becomes reality depends largely on public reaction in Europe. Are they hungry for a Harley like this?"

Still the European focus. Maybe they don't think they can sell enough of them here to make it worthwhile? Or maybe it's just Europe first, as some other manufacturers have done. Might be a smart move, as they wouldn't have to make as many to cover the European market as they would for a full-scale American launch. Then, if it works in Europe and generates a lot of demand, they could bring it here in a few years. Given their not-so-stellar experience marketing the Buell line, perhaps they've learned something and are just being cautious this time.

MA1

20th November 2006, 06:48

One of the Strengths/afflictions of the Sportster has always been that its very easy to work on, and modify. In the grand tradition of the American back yard mechanic, we tend to say "Heck, I can get the base model, and get more out of it for less than that dang factory machine." With any number of catalogs and speed shops (Storz, NHRS etc) to help out.

Thus a bike like the XR 1200 will be lauded by the very folks who will then ignore it on the showroom floor, as they walk past it to a base XL 883, Hi Po catalogs tucked beneath their arm.

This desire largly does not exist in the rest of the world, by either inclination or legislation, thus factory performance options become more desirable. So sell it to the Euros to make the needed volume for full production, and keep only so many in this country as can be sold.

pperrone

23rd November 2006, 19:13

i would like to see it stay under $10,000 like the rest of the family!

jessearias

25th November 2006, 04:15

I'm with you MA on this one. Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200. And, one that will run circles around it for a lot less money.

I have posted my opinion on this before. The XR1200 is nothing more than a dressed up sporstster. As such, nothing that anybody here can't do themselves. Not too original.

On the other hand, I would like to see somebody try and copy my original XR1000 out of a catalog. That was a true original design in the tradition of the Buell's and VRSC's that followed.

It's probally a good design for the europeans though.

Jesse

SRTM4

25th November 2006, 05:09

I like the way HD is finally giving us a good foundation to start with. Much better frame, suspension, wheels, bodywork, motor etc. I can take it from there.
I doubt that anyone can build this same bike for the price that they will sell it for. Maybe you can make your sporty as fast but not much else.

Duane Wood

25th November 2006, 09:02

The Guzzis are EASILY competitors for an XR1200. Especially in Europe.

chrisg

26th November 2006, 19:07

I have posted my opinion on this before. The XR1200 is nothing more than a dressed up sporstster. As such, nothing that anybody here can't do themselves. Not too original.

On the other hand, I would like to see somebody try and copy my original XR1000 out of a catalog. That was a true original design in the tradition of the Buell's and VRSC's that followed.

Jesse

Huh? That seems kind of backward to me. The XR1000 had nothing special about it (I did lust over them though) except a set of heads, pipes, and carbs. The frame, bodywork, suspension, bottom end, hokey 16/19 wheel combo, controls, brakes,etc.....where all standard Sportster. And XR motors were available from the factory, so yeah, it could have been easily duplicated.

The XR1200 has/will have way more proprietary parts to it. Suspension, wheels, rearsets (finally!), bodywork, ...... Duplicate it with parts catalogs? Maybe if you have a winning lotto ticket in your pocket.

I've been modding my base '01 over several years now and I'm already deeper into it than I would like to be and that's with lots of compromises and just modding a lot of the factory stuff to just work better. And it still has a lot of issues. Not to mention all the miles I haven't ridden it due to the fact it is usually partially disassembled while I'm trying to find time to work on it or waiting for parts. I'd much rather have something that's ready to go with quality parts that work, from the factory, and then satisfy my tinkering needs refining what is provided a little more if I feel like it, so I can spend more time riding it, rather than re-engineering it.

I say bring it on, and if they are really serious about selling them, price it just under $10k, don't get greedy, just get it established in the marketplace as a serious alternative to other sporting standards and let the Sportster have it's image back.

Kev M

26th November 2006, 21:21

I'm with you MA on this one. Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200. And, one that will run circles around it for a lot less money.

You're saying just about anyone can buy a $6995 base sporty and then spend

$1200 on a 1200 conversion w/buell or better heads
$1000 on wheels
$500 or so on dual 4-piston caliper brakes
$1000+ on body work (tank, rear clip)
$??? what for the custom swing arm?
$??? for downdraft EFI? Ok, we go with the new 07 EFI and just instead go with a reflash plus what???
$300+ for exhaust
$500+ inverted fork assembly

We're looking at $7000 for the base 883 and AT LEAST $5k of parts plus the time to assemble them.

So I say BS to your "Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200"

K

Duane Wood

26th November 2006, 21:42

You're saying just about anyone can buy a $6995 base sporty and then spend

$1200 on a 1200 conversion w/buell or better heads
$1000 on wheels
$500 or so on dual 4-piston caliper brakes
$1000+ on body work (tank, rear clip)
$??? what for the custom swing arm?
$??? for downdraft EFI? Ok, we go with the new 07 EFI and just instead go with a reflash plus what???
$300+ for exhaust
$500+ inverted fork assembly

We're looking at $7000 for the base 883 and AT LEAST $5k of parts plus the time to assemble them.

So I say BS to your "Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200"

K

Gee, we ARE back to $13,000+. Most dealers already "gouge" people for $10,000+ for a 1200R.

SRTM4

27th November 2006, 01:00

Kev M

27th November 2006, 02:07

Gee, we ARE back to $13,000+. Most dealers already "gouge" people for $10,000+ for a 1200R.

I don't give a flyingmothercumfruckthrougharollingjellydonut what you think "most" dealers are going to do. I've been buying NEW Harleys for going on two decades and I've NEVER paid more than MSRP for one and I never will.

IF they build the XR1200 and price it ANYWHERE near the reasonable point for the market, I.E. $10k ish, I WILL BUY ONE.

IF they build it and try to price it at $13k it WILL flop and I will likely admire it from afar while riding my new Guzzi, Ducati or Buell.

But IF you look at Harley's pricing of the Sporster line (or even one big twin vs. another) I think you'll see that they normally at least price any one premium model for less than it would cost you to buy the base model and upgrade it.

If would take a heck of a lot more than the price difference to upgrage the 883L to the 1200L, or the 883R to the 1200R, or the 883C to the 1200C, so I cannot believe for a second they are going to overprice the XR1200 anywhere NEAR the amount it would take you to convert an $8995 1200R to an XR1200.

Duane Wood

27th November 2006, 05:35

The XR1200 will come with all of these nice go fast and handle goodies ans still retain a warranty. If HD prices it right , I dont see why they wont sell the crap out of these bikes.
We need to also include the price of a new frame that the other sportys wont have.

Don't forget that in Europe, the XR will have to compete against the S2R and S4R Ducks - along with their new "retro" models. Piaggio is serious as a heart attack about getting into "motorcycles" and the new Moto Guzzis (financed by world leader, Piaggio) will also be circling the XR waters. The Jap naked bikes are not in the same theme, but still grab at sales with blistering performance at the same or lower cost. BMW is also on the march to vastly expand it's market and has upped it's hp to a competitive level. Triumph continues forward with it's own two and three cylinder themes and growing popularity. As slick as the XR might be, it's still WAR in the marketplace. If it had 100+hp to the tire and a wet weight of under 500 lbs. it would be CERTAIN to compete, even if a bit pricey. But if it's spendy and barely hits into the 12 second bracket in the 1/4 mile (slower than grandma without her oxygen bottle), sales will be lackluster. Typical cruiser bikes get by with low hp to thrill their inexperienced riders, as long as they have some low-end torque to "squirt" through traffic, giving the impression of zippy acceleration. But the tide shifts with bikes like the XR. Most non-Harley owners expect bikes in that theme to run in the tens, right off the showroom floor - to them, it will have laughable performance. And just how many of us who HAVE and appreciate Harleys, will sell it right away just to get the XR?

SRTM4

27th November 2006, 05:44

Don't forget that in Europe, the XR will have to compete against the S2R and S4R Ducks - along with their new "retro" models. Piaggio is serious as a heart attack about getting into "motorcycles" and the new Moto Guzzis (financed by world leader, Piaggio) will also be circling the XR waters. The Jap naked bikes are not in the same theme, but still grab at sales with blistering performance at the same or lower cost. BMW is also on the march to vastly expand it's market and has upped it's hp to a competitive level. Triumph continues forward with it's own two and three cylinder themes and growing popularity. As slick as the XR might be, it's still WAR in the marketplace. If it had 100+hp to the tire and a wet weight of under 500 lbs. it would be CERTAIN to compete, even if a bit pricey. But if it's spendy and barely hits into the 12 second bracket in the 1/4 mile (slower than grandma without her oxygen bottle), sales will be lackluster.
100% agree with you there. There will be faster bikes for a cheaper price than the XR1200. But it will have the exclusive HD name on the side. That will lure some people into buying it. I myself want a Hot Rod Harley and see plenty of potential there to make it right.

MA1

28th November 2006, 00:36

I certianly don't think that the XR 1200 could be duplicated for the same price as speculated, using an XL883. I am personaly certain it cannot. But as witnessed here, unfortunatly, a lot of folks are going to THINK that.

One thing that bothers me. It seems few folks have noticed that the HP numbers given at Intermot were BRAKE HP numbers. IE at the rear wheel. It kind of moves the argument upscale. I suppose most are used to HD using shaft numbers.

SRTM4

28th November 2006, 04:48

Brake HP is engine HP and not the power at the wheel.
Brake horsepower (bhp)
Brake horsepower (bhp) is the measure of an engine's horsepower without the loss in power caused by the gearbox, generator, differential, water pump and other auxiliaries. Thus the prefix "brake" refers to where the power is measured: at the engine's output shaft, as on an engine dynamometer. The actual horsepower delivered to the driving wheels is less. An engine would have to be retested to obtain a rating in another system. The term "brake" refers to the use of a band brake to measure torque during the test (which is multiplied by the engine

SRTM4

28th November 2006, 04:50

If the XR1200 has 90 HP brake HP then it will probably have 75-80 horsepower on a chassis dyno or to the back wheel.

jessearias

28th November 2006, 06:34

The point I am trying to make on this new version of the XR is that it does not follow the original XR concept.

The original XR concept was to take the race motor and mix that in with a standard sportster. The classic american hot rod model. I agree that the rest of the bike was just a regular sportster but, it's the concept. HOT ROD

The new XR is more of a re-make of the old XLCR Cafe Racer. Now, if they called this bike the CR-1200 Cafe Racer you would get no arguement out of me. I would totally agree. It follows exactly in the concept of the old cafe racer but, with all the latest improvements.

The XR needs a tricked out or unique motor to make it follow the original Hot Rod concept. That along with the other improvements would make it a great bike.
We know the factory can do tricked out motors when they want. This is just one of those situations where the factory needs to step up. Besides, I see everyone comparing this bike to all the Guzzis and such. So, a tricked up motor wouldn't be such a bad thing to run against these bikes.

I still think, that you could duplicate a XR-1200 if you purchased a used 04 up 883 and invested about 5K-6K you would end up with a very nice XR style bike. It may or may not be as swoopie or stylish as the new XR, but it would have the suspension and engine to give it a go around. I don't claim to be a master custom bike builder but, I have put enough bikes together to know this is a good possibility if you do all the work yourself and shop for the deals. (and pick up the 883 for about 4K)

So anyway, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

Jesse

SRTM4

28th November 2006, 13:35

Kev M

28th November 2006, 14:27

The XR1200's motor makes more power than the XR1000 did. I wouldnt call it a race motor by the rest of the competition out there but by HD standards its as good as it gets . Its has a lot of the Buell technology in it,. Hell you can basically call it a buell motor. I do not know the details on it yet but Im certain its not far from the XB motors.
You can build an 883 to compete with the XR 1200 but it wont be as well rounded as the XR and still wont come with a factory warranty. And in the end it will cost more.;)

:clap :clap :clap

Let me just add I don't give two craps whether Harley calls it an XR, XR1200, XLCR1200, XLH1200CR, XLCH1200R or just an F'n Sporty... Call if the Buellyssess II for all I care, just F'n BUILD IT!!!!!!!

Kev

SRTM4

28th November 2006, 16:05

:clap :clap :clap

Let me just add I don't give two craps whether Harley calls it an XR, XR1200, XLCR1200, XLH1200CR, XLCH1200R or just an F'n Sporty... Call if the Buellyssess II for all I care, just F'n BUILD IT!!!!!!!

Kev
I second that motion!:D

hogpreacher

29th November 2006, 00:54

Fairly ugly

MA1

29th November 2006, 09:11

SRTM4

29th November 2006, 13:42

My mistake, except that most BHP references in motorcycling use a Prony brake arrangment driven by a drum off the rear wheel, so I still suspect these may be rear wheel numbers. That and HD has always referred to their numbers as SHP, so BHP is a different usage for them.

On another point, this bike DOES have unique heads (XB downdraft, as opposed to the XL sidedraft), unique cases, and a unique intake system. The 7000 rpm factory redline would seem to bespeak unique internals as well, perhaps using the lighter crank assy of the Buell engines. THis seems to qualify it for at least the same status in some eyes as the earlier XR 1000. It would be interesting to see if the oil pump drive is the same as the XL, or is driven off the Number 2 cam as is the XB engines

Styling is subjective, but it seems most of this was engineering driven, as opposed to a straight styling exercise as per the Customs. IE the tank was dictated by the use of the aircraft filler, while providing useful capacity while still intigrating the variable geometry down draft air box. The tail was dictated by the need for 2 up capacity, while still deriving some influence from its XR genisis. The engine incorporates many changes from the Buell XBs, and drops the superflues timing cone.

THis is a complete effort, while niether a pure styling exercise as was the XLCR, or a mismatched engineering/marketing effort as was the XR-1000.
I hear you buddy. I just didnt want to gives others the wrong information.
I know My Firebolt was rated at 92 bhp and after a filter, exhaust, and another ecm it made 79 horsepower at the wheel. This has also been shown on many HD and Buell dynos on the net and in magazines so obviously HD is rating their engines at the crank or flywheel.
As much as I liked the XR1000, it wont compete with its new brother the XR1200. HD really put some thought into the XR1200. I really cannot wait to see some hard numbers such as Track times, HP and top gear roll ons. Im pretty sure that it wont be as fast as the XB1200 buells but faster than the smaller ones (984cc).
Hopefully this motor is pretty much a 103BHP Buell 1200 with maybe some different cam profiles to boost torque while robbing a little HP up top. That would explain the 85-90 claimed HP that we are hearing.
I sure wish someone could tell us when this info will come........

Kev M

29th November 2006, 17:06

My mistake, except that most BHP references in motorcycling use a Prony brake arrangment driven by a drum off the rear wheel, so I still suspect these may be rear wheel numbers. That and HD has always referred to their numbers as SHP, so BHP is a different usage for them.

MA1 - all the stuff I snipped from your quote was great for the record.

But like SRTM, I have to take issue with your conclusion that "most BHP reference in motorcycling use a Pony brake arrangement driven by a drum off the rear wheel."

Actually IT IS TRUE that Harley tend to NOT publish stock HP numbers (EXCEPT in their SE catalogs where they show comparitive dyno runs between stock and SE kits). And it is also true that WHEN they do that they're talking rear wheel.

HOWEVER, Harley does occassionally publish HP specs in magazines such as The Enthusiast. Most recently I remember seeing figures on the Vrod and on the Rubbermount Sportys when they were introduced. In both cases those numbers proved to be crankshaft as later magazine tests have shown. Same is true for Buell catalog HP ratings, they are crank.

Harley does publish Torque ratings in their catalogs, but again they are crank and not rear wheel, as magazine tests will show.

And I am at a loss to think of one other single manufacturer that publishes rear wheel figures?

Moto Guzzi doesn't
BMW doesn't
Triumph doesn't
Ducati doesn't

and last time I checked, none of the big 4 Jap companies do either, but there may be an exception in the form of one particular model.

Same is true for the entire automotive industry.

WHY?

Simple, because manufacturers want to put their best foot forward in advertising.

and at some point a couple of decades ago one manufacturer must have figured out that if you publish the crank spec it will look higher than the competition. And when others realized that they said, "crap, we better publish crank specs too" and well, for decades it's pretty much been that way.

So I would be SHOCKED (I mean jaw dropping SHOCKED) if those early reports of 85-90 bhp was rear wheel. I'm talking falbbergasted.

But then again, that would be some crow I'd be happy to digest if it meant I could buy an XR1200 with 100+ crank hp. :banana

SRTM4

29th November 2006, 19:12

Yes, that would be getting too much from HD if we were getting 90 HP to the wheel. Hell might freeze over! But then again , they caught me off guard with the the bike altogether.
It wouldnt be hard to get 100 or so BHP. The XB1200 engine is in production.
Im thinking that the engine we are getting will be a slightly detuned version of the XB1200.
Either way Im content for now.:smoke

Kev M

29th November 2006, 19:36

It wouldnt be hard to get 100 or so BHP. The XB1200 engine is in production.
Im thinking that the engine we are getting will be a slightly detuned version of the XB1200.
Either way Im content for now.:smoke

That would be my guess too....

makarov

29th November 2006, 19:42

I think Carrol Shelby was quoted as saying: "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races..." They always want to put up a higher number if possible.

Ole

29th November 2006, 20:58

I think Carrol Shelby was quoted as saying: "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races..." They always want to put up a higher number if possible.
On the same note I remember a quote of, "Horsepower only keeps you there; torque gets you there."

SRTM4

30th November 2006, 00:14

Torque gets you moving. Horsepower keeps you moving.
I myself prefer Horsepower. Torque is for pulling things like trailors. Horsepower is for going fast.;)

Lucifer

30th November 2006, 00:46

I sure like it, XL1200. I'm sure I can't afford it. Might as well mod the 04 1200R that I almost have paid off. H-D wanted to take mine on a BT trade for $5500. 18,000 miles and pretty clean, new tires, brakes and well maintained. I would think any idiot would pay that for it, and blow me too! Not to mention the add-ons. I can see some irate H-D ridin Muslim blowing the local stealer right off the map in due time! Beware of U-hauls sitting in the parking lot.
Dave

roadster

30th November 2006, 07:57

Horsepower is just fer racers, torque is for trucks and bulldozers. Now whatcha really want is an engine with Balls! Juice! Snot! So if I had a motor with tons of torque and no horsepower what would happen? I get up to speed quickly,I guess. But then I would slow down because no HP? Whaa...??

And 'ol Shelby is still cashing in...that new GT500 has 500HP. Conspicuously absent from the commercial hyperbole is the 2 TON curb weight. Oops. What a fine sports car that must be.

SRTM4

30th November 2006, 13:40

Yes the Hardtop GT500 does weigh right in at 4,000 lbs. Heavy for a mustang. But with a little tuning to the factory ECM and some drag radials these cars are running 11.60-70's. With a pulley change on the blower and a decent exhaust 10's are right around the corner. I love todays technology. Daily drivers that will run 10's.
This is what Im preaching about the XR1200. Technology. Having your cake and eating it too. HD should have a competitor here.:)

roadster

1st December 2006, 07:48

Steve3888

1st December 2006, 08:08

You need to do some reading. The GT500 according to the experts does handle well. It's not a Jaguar XKR but that car costs another $20,000.

SRTM4

1st December 2006, 19:21

Yup,a daily driver $60,000.00 nose heavy turd Mustang that corners like the queen Mary. YUK. How long is an aluminum 331 gonna last making 500 ponies? The naturally aspirated 4.6's crack pistons all the time....wait,back to Sportsters! I'd sure own the XR before I bought into the tired old Shelby hype. The auto makers try, but with an encyclopedia of Federal regulations, it's pretty hard to make a decent car anymore. Imagine a guy restoring a 2007 car 30 years from now. Nahhh...
I know that we are way off topic now but I own a whipple charged twin screw 03 cobra. It is putting down 590 to the wheels. Its a 4.6L and I must say its holding up well as a dailydriver. Cant beat that with a hammer.
The new GT500 is not my favorite car but by todays standars the $40,000 price tag isnt that bad. It handles damm good even with the live axle in the rear. Just like the XR1200 it has major potential! Thats what I like about late model hotrods. They are held back from the factory because of the government restrctions but once you get them home the fun begins.
Another thing is the late model cars and motorcycles are faster and alot easier to live with on a daily basis.
My 883r turned into a stage 2 ported 1200 was an animal. It pulled from idle to redline. It was not rubbermounted and the motor was not nearly as smooth as my Buell. Now I will be able to buy the XR1200 and it will be as docile as a stock 883 but be as fast as my tricked out sportster. Great times we live in.

roadster

2nd December 2006, 06:21

SRTM4

2nd December 2006, 07:40

Well as long as you have crash test standards all cars are going to get heavier. You cannot deny Horsepower though. We have more than ever to compensate for that extra weight. Call it a turd all you want. Its a !!!!ing fast turd and alot of potential to go faster.
There a Gt500 running 9.90's with a 75 shot of nitrous and bolt ons. 3950 curb weight. I dont care if it weighs 10,000 pounds, thats running. In fact that will beat on most 1liter sportbikes. Enough said!

dagsportster

4th December 2006, 02:59

I have zero interest in this bike at any price, but for those of you who moisten at the thought of it, I hope they price it low enough that you can buy it, but high enough so that it seems like its worth something.

Duane Wood

4th December 2006, 03:45

You'll never see one for $40,000. Dealers will price gouge it to hell and back in the limited numbers it will be produced.

roadster

5th December 2006, 05:17

Sure,with enough juice, anything will fly. But is that all you guys think about-straight line races for 1320 ft? Last time I checked, lighter equalled better perormance. 4000lbs and 500hp does not go any quicker than 2000lbs and 250hp. Guess which one is more fun to turn? Or stop? They shoulda called that thing a Torino. What a joke. It costs as much as a 'Vette and ain't even in the same league. More is not always better. Ol' Shelby is laughing all the way to the bank while Ford goes broke!!

Kentucky

27th December 2006, 19:02

Ford's buyin' a lotta ad space in those experts' magazines. OF COURSE THEY LIKE IT. Sorry,it's a 2-ton TURD for $20,000 over msrp. Wait a year. They'll be 25K.

2 Fricking tons! That ain't a Mustang. Just like 570 lbs ain't a Sportster.

Hey Kev, I found another Carp to play with..........

Yeah, just under 2 tons at a curb weight of 3,920 but that's pretty good. I had a 1969 Boss 429 and that car was a monster. It too weighed in at almost 2 tons with a curb weight of 3,870 pounds and ya know what, it wasn't enough because the car would get aero light above 130mph. The 65-67 Shelby 427 Cobra weighed in at 2,280 and if you’ve ever been in one you would know they rode like a truck, well, maybe the truck rode better. The car was an animal to drive. So, now we get to the XR1200 with its dry weight of 540 pounds. Yeah, that's up there and no doubt it would be nice to have seen it at around 500 pounds but it isn't nor will it be. The 2007 triumph Scrambler comes in just over 450 dry but it isn't near the bike now is it. The Ducati S4R weighs 390 dry and this is awesome but then again it's not a Harley now is it? My point to all this is simple, if you want true performance you're not likely to be buying a Harley for this task as there are numerous bikes out there with better performance but a good deal more money too. The Shelby mustang is a passenger car and the preliminary stats would indicate it does very well for what it is however, anyone with half a brain would know it is not a race car and to make it such they better get the tools out. If you want the XR1200 to be a race bike, here again, you had better get the tools out or don't buy it because you will never be satisfied with it. Buy a ZX14 or a Busa and then you can live in the fast lane..... In the meantime don’t make these products out to be something they aren’t… Rather, take an objective look at what’s in front of you...

Duane Wood

28th December 2006, 06:11

Weight is a KILLER! It doesn't matter if it's an SRT-8 Charger, GT500, or XR1200. Accelerating the mass constantly drains the fuel tank at a rapid rate. Engines have to achieve ever greater hp to keep acceleration on par with lighter vehicles. All of the heavy rigs can be made to handle good - NEVER great. It's a much bigger strain on brakes and tires when they are used in a sporting fashion. Two-ton cars will trash those expensive tires they wear in only one, club track-day.

roadster

28th December 2006, 08:08

Kentucky,you'll need better bait than that.

sprtrjl

28th January 2007, 05:30

Kev M

28th January 2007, 22:02

I think 11,500 to 12,500. But I don't care. In my opinion it is ugly as hell and don't lok forward to seeing one on American streets. The engine specs sounds pretty cool though (wonder what it might lose trying to get it EPA approved?. They can keep the rest of it in Europe for all I care.

I'm under the impression tha current EU regs are as tight or tighter than US EPA, so my GUESS is they'll loose nothing...

K

sprtrjl

29th January 2007, 06:55

Kev M

29th January 2007, 14:29

I don't know for sure about that. Kind of hard to find much straight information on it. Their fuel octane is measured differently that ours, and some of the comparisons (on Cars) I could pull up had the U.S. torque and HP ratings lower on most veh. The comparison is also hard to follow (not to mention converting metric to US) because it looks like they put more emphasis on Co2 than other gases we test. At any rate I think they will have different specs if it gets here and will be more than you said you would pay for it.

I've been buying and following European Motorcycles for some time now, and I can't recall the last time I found one with different specs for Europe.

I believe Moto Guzzi, Ducati, Triumphs, BMWs, are all "world spec" these days.

Harley does seem to play some games with their "international" models. But so far I've only heard about them choking the Oz models.

Now granted, Buell shows just the SLIGHTEST change in specs between say the US and the UK

US - XB12 - 103 hp @ 6800 rpm / 84 ft. lbs. @ 6000
UK - XB12 - 100 hp @ 6600 rpm / 81 ft. lbs. @ 6000

Seems like much ado about nothing.

No matter, they already sell Buell models with more hp/torque from the same basic motor here, so meeting US standards and those numbers shouldn't be a big deal.

and I still think price is going to be in the right ballpark, but time will tell.

Kev

sprtrjl

30th January 2007, 01:59

Kev M

30th January 2007, 13:33

You may be right, who knows at this point. I did notice that the specs on the motorcycles produced overseas tend to have higher HP and torque ratings there than they do here. The ones produced here are rated higher than when checked on an overseas website.

I haven't cross-checked them all, but I thought that trend didn't bear out on most Euro bikes (Ducati, Guzzi, BMW, Triumph)... could be wrong though, I'm lazy this morning.

wormjello

2nd February 2007, 14:14

All of the XL and XB models meet or exceed EU and EPA standards without the use of catalytic converters or air injection. If you can maintain a AF ratio across the entire range of engine and burn the mixture efficiently you shouldn't have to clean the emissions afterwords with the above mentioned devices. The Japanese XLs have a different cam to reduce noise and some countries have an active intake flap in front of the air filter, presumably to reduce intake noise. Its expensive to have a model for each country so HD has an international model that meets requirements of the most demanding country of the several it goes to. IMHO;)

Rocker59

24th February 2007, 16:09

I'm thinking the XR1200 will MSRP around $10,495

LordVngr

28th March 2007, 20:25

You're saying just about anyone can buy a $6995 base sporty and then spend

$1200 on a 1200 conversion w/buell or better heads
$1000 on wheels
$500 or so on dual 4-piston caliper brakes
$1000+ on body work (tank, rear clip)
$??? what for the custom swing arm?
$??? for downdraft EFI? Ok, we go with the new 07 EFI and just instead go with a reflash plus what???
$300+ for exhaust
$500+ inverted fork assembly

We're looking at $7000 for the base 883 and AT LEAST $5k of parts plus the time to assemble them.

So I say BS to your "Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200"

K

Yep I was Thinking the Same Thing Exactly. But the time you Build a 883 up Any 883 you have a Lot into it. He is right about one thing though. Most sporty owners / future sporty owners think exactly like he says. Why buy a XR or 1200R when I can just buy a 883 and throw in a 1200 Kit and have the same bike.

Oh wait, we have had this discussion Before Havent we....
NeverMind...

:banadanc

LV

towlie

30th March 2007, 01:26

I naturally voted for the least price. If it's more then $11k I'll be getting a Buell, not from Harley either as they don't seem to want to sell me one. I had my mind set on buying one twice and both times I stood by the Buells for a half an hour b4 someone come over to talk to me about one and the only reason they did is because I was leaving!! Can you imagine that?

In fact, trying to compete against Italian manufacturers is a waste of time, people don't buy Italian bikes for on paper specs or for cheap prices.. Ask Honda just how well their 'VTwin Superbike' sold.. Which on paper put out more power, handled better and was cheaper than a Ducati 996.

Yes the RC51 didn't sell well, but they had to at least make enough to comply with homogulation - Italy knows this all too well, in AMA at least. The RC51, IMO wasn't produced to sell millions to the masses, but actually to compete directly with Ducati using the same displacement advantage that the Italian manufacturer had enjoyed for so long - and they (Honda) did (become competitive). Just to prove a point as it were. Yes, my friend on paper, but, more importantly; on the track, with a championship in it's debut year in WSB racing (2000) and its last year (2002). 2 out of 3 ain't bad. The only reason the 51 ceased development was when the rules changed to allow the I-4's the same displacement as the V-twin's, otherwise I honestly believe that the new for 2007 literbikes from the Big Four would all be Ducati spankin' Vees.

Yes and no..
And again, in all honesty.. Outside of America very few people know or care what flat track is.

Yeah, unless they were road racers, then they were like "Who are those Americans spinning their tires on every corner exit and winning all these races? I wonder where they learned that from?"

But IF you look at Harley's pricing of the Sporster line (or even one big twin vs. another) I think you'll see that they normally at least price any one premium model for less than it would cost you to buy the base model and upgrade it.

You mentioned Sporty's and this is evident in the CVO line as well.

Evi|grin

31st March 2007, 01:41

Ive still got my fingers crossed for the XR to be sold in the US but if it isnt this year then im probably going to get a 2007 Multistrada 1100 until they do.

I really want the XR though, even if the specs on paper favor the Ducati. The new 1098 is an absolute beast in the hp department too but i just cant ride that kind of bike for more than an hour.

rharrison356

1st April 2007, 02:33

I cant see the XR being the "top of the line" and already the 1200C, XL50 and 1200N are within $300 of being 10K.

Kev M

10th April 2007, 13:38

I cant see the XR being the "top of the line" and already the 1200C, XL50 and 1200N are within $300 of being 10K.

Ya know I read this comment too fast last week. I didn't read it is "can't" I read it as CAN and agreed.

I CAN see this selling at about $10-11k... just above the 1200L, C and N.

Some more Sporty Standards to chew on -

R1200R - $13k
Guzzi Griso 1100 - $13k
Guzzi Breva 1100 - $12.5k

and now the Guzzi Bellagio (940cc) - guesstimate - $10k and in the Euro press it's target marketing is toward the Sporty.

Todd31de

10th April 2007, 17:51

They are comitted in Europe, so they'll just have to run it up the flag pole here and see who salutes.

bookman

20th July 2007, 14:44

It should be priced around the 10K mark, but since Harley tends to overprice most of thier bikes... it will have a higher msrp.

ajax68

20th July 2007, 19:09

Does anyone have a guess (or an educated one at that) on how much it cost HD to build a sportster in general?

My local HD sells the Nightster for more than 10 so I guess the XRr will be closer to $11000 here in my hood.

I would like to see it under 10, but will be priced 10300ish. If it comes. Which it should.

I think all 1200 should get this motor. I have came to the realization that HD "sport" bike is the Rod and that the sporty is the "begginer"(pukeing right now) in there eyes. Leave the 883 for the "begginer" and give us a buelled engine 1200. Who knows the liquid cooled buell could be all that is available for buells in a few years and then they have that beautiful engine to use as described above.

Kev M

21st July 2007, 15:11

I think all 1200 should get this motor. I have came to the realization that HD "sport" bike is the Rod and that the sporty is the "begginer"(pukeing right now) in there eyes. Leave the 883 for the "begginer" and give us a buelled engine 1200. Who knows the liquid cooled buell could be all that is available for buells in a few years and then they have that beautiful engine to use as described above.

I think the potential problem of the Buell mill is the size/shape of the air intake and the exhaust.

But I sorta agree.

Actually, in my mind, this is how they should proceed.

the show ponies - the L, N and C models should continue as is, current motors/chassis etc.

the R models should be deleted and REPLACED with the XR models.

Put the air-cooled Buell mills in the XRs - so you'd have 900cc and 1200cc versions, with real suspensions and brakes. And, if at all possible, change the frame for lighter weight. Get them just sub 500 lbs. and you're there. They won't be SPORTBIKES, but they'd be the Sportiest Sportys in decades!!!

Kev

gronk62

22nd July 2007, 05:05

Actually, in my mind, this is how they should proceed.

the show ponies - the L, N and C models should continue as is, current motors/chassis etc.

the R models should be deleted and REPLACED with the XR models.

Put the air-cooled Buell mills in the XRs - so you'd have 900cc and 1200cc versions, with real suspensions and brakes. And, if at all possible, change the frame for lighter weight. Get them just sub 500 lbs. and you're there. They won't be SPORTBIKES, but they'd be the Sportiest Sportys in decades!!!

Kev

Now I don't always agree with ya on everything Kev but this time I reckon ya nailed it :)

Duane Wood

22nd July 2007, 19:51

Kev M

22nd July 2007, 21:19

Sub 500 lbs. and more hp with better chassis. H-D will need $11,000 to justify such a leap in equipment above "regular" Sportsters. H-D probably can sell the XR1200 as prototyped for under $10,000, but it would screw up the pricing of the Sportster line having any current Sportsters priced nearly as much or more, with fewer features. And for the most part, Sportster owners are way, way, way too "cheap" to come up with $11,000 for a motorcycle. Look at all the whining on the forum over the cost of a 1200R opposed to an 883! H-D is NOT going to do a third albatross that sells a few hundred copies then languishes in the dealership back rooms. Nope, just too many "Sportster" buyers that want a "budget" bike with genuine H-D labels. It's so much easier to make a successful performance statement in the Buell line. If H-D thought it was worthwhile, the XR1200 WOULD be on the market since it IS 100% designed and protyped. They didn't and it isn't.

Actually,

They currenty sell XB9s for about 8 and change, and XB12s for about 10 and change.

So there is no reason to think they couldn't have an XR9 and XR12 for about the same costs, which wouldn't screw up anything price wise.

They'd still have XL883, XL883L and XL883C models as the budget leaders.

They'd still have XL12 models (C, L and N) for 10 and change.

And hell, with a little more performance, plus a better suspension etc, they'd justify a more expensive short stroke XR9 (at the same price of the current 1200R, and with performance to probably better it), and a more expensive XR12.

As for why it's not for sale right now, I'm told by factory workers that they'd had some prolbems with the brakes, something discovered in testing. More importantly, they're feeling out the market with the new EFI and the 1200Ns no need to rush the XR into production yet.

No I'm remain cautiously optimistic.

Kev

Duane Wood

23rd July 2007, 05:53

Actually,

They currenty sell XB9s for about 8 and change, and XB12s for about 10 and change.

So there is no reason to think they couldn't have an XR9 and XR12 for about the same costs, which wouldn't screw up anything price wise.

They'd still have XL883, XL883L and XL883C models as the budget leaders.

They'd still have XL12 models (C, L and N) for 10 and change.

And hell, with a little more performance, plus a better suspension etc, they'd justify a more expensive short stroke XR9 (at the same price of the current 1200R, and with performance to probably better it), and a more expensive XR12.

As for why it's not for sale right now, I'm told by factory workers that they'd had some prolbems with the brakes, something discovered in testing. More importantly, they're feeling out the market with the new EFI and the 1200Ns no need to rush the XR into production yet.

No I'm remain cautiously optimistic.

Kev

They can't have a Sportster XR1200 at H-D dealerhips with a special swingarm, better suspension, downdraft EFI, more hp, better wheels, etc., sitting next to an "archaic by design" 1200N that sells for even more money. While H-D CAN justify more money ($11,000+) for the XR1200 performance upgrades, I remain steadfast that the bulk of the Sportster consumer base is budget-based, looking for the cheapest possible machines with the H-D labels. Ducati on the other hand, sells by pure lust. People with lust will pay more for that unique status. And the big-twins largely sell on pure lust, with very high profit margins to match.
The Buell 1125R just filled in the XR1200 slot, and with another 50 hp for some real excitement.

Todd31de

23rd July 2007, 12:39

The biggest thing to remember is that the average age of a Harley own is now close to 50. I am 38 and most of my friends have no interest in owning a Sportster. A Road King maybe. The 20 something kids here at work all buy 600 sport bikes. They never took my bike serious until one day at lunch I spanked them on the tight back roads. It was more lack of experience on their part. These kids don't care if it has forward controls and chrome cases, they want a fast bike or what seems to be a fast bike.

A local Suzuki dealer told me he can't sell standard motorcycles. People want a Harley replica (older riders) or a V4 sport bike (younger riders). Anything else in between is a hard sell.

The MOCO has to bring different younger buyers into the show rooms or they will be like Indian. No one will buy the big Harleys and Buells will have the Harley badge.

I don't know if the XR-1200 is the right direction but it's a road they need to head down. They need to provide a place between the sport bike and a Softtail. I don't think the V-Rod is cutting it.

Kev M

23rd July 2007, 14:06

They can't have a Sportster XR1200 at H-D dealerhips with a special swingarm, better suspension, downdraft EFI, more hp, better wheels, etc., sitting next to an "archaic by design" 1200N that sells for even more money. While H-D CAN justify more money ($11,000+) for the XR1200 performance upgrades

Again, I don't think you NEED to sell it for "more than a 1200N" but I betcha they COULD SELL IT FOR MORE THAN A 1200R ... and it would be more attractive to buyers of 1200Rs as such.

The biggest thing to remember is that the average age of a Harley own is now close to 50. I am 38 and most of my friends have no interest in owning a Sportster. A Road King maybe. The 20 something kids here at work all buy 600 sport bikes.

But remember, there are plenty of younger (20s and 30 y/o) Sportster riders. Not all those "kids" want 600cc sport bikes (though a number of em obviously do).

The MOCO has to bring different younger buyers into the show rooms or they will be like Indian. No one will buy the big Harleys and Buells will have the Harley badge.

I don't know if the XR-1200 is the right direction but it's a road they need to head down. They need to provide a place between the sport bike and a Softtail. I don't think the V-Rod is cutting it.

I do agree it would be good for Harley to bring MORE younger and different style buyers into the showroom, though I don't see them being in jeapardy in any way.

I do also agree that they need something more between a sport bike and a Softail!!!!

Todd31de

23rd July 2007, 15:09

Kev M

23rd July 2007, 18:07

I don't mean to ring the gloom and doom bell. I was at the York plant back in the early 90's (when everything was built there) and they had hoped to have total production at 100,000 units by the end of the year. Now they have two factories and produce 100,000 Sportsters alone. It's just I don't see in 10-15 years 100k Sportster buyers a year. Or I should say current Sportster models. We have dealers now selling off leftovers at discount. Only 5-6 years ago you could only dream of such a thing.

I don't think the issue of leftovers and discounts has ANYTHING to do with the bike itself, it's a case of production meeting and finally exceeding demand.

TOTAL production is above 300k.

I too remember Harley talking about how it was trying to raise production CAREFULLY past the 100k/year number so as not to sacrifice quality (but somewhere, unsaid, they were also thinking of staying off the time when supply would meet or exceed demand).

Anyway, that's all the more reason to create new product and go after an expanded customer base.

K

YOFFI

12th September 2007, 16:32

dont judge the xr1200 till you've ridden it?

closest thing to a harley badged buell!!

uk bikes are £8150:banana :banana

already ordered mine:D :D :D :D

Evi|grin

7th October 2007, 20:29

Glad to hear they are starting to take orders. I cant wait till they hit the US so i can finish my collection.

Hopefully they will be here before i cave in to the temptation of a HyperMotard. :tour

Folkie

7th October 2007, 22:42

The XR1200 is being released in the UK at $15,578. Given that the XL1200R is $14,235 in the UK, and $8,895 in the US, I figure the XR1200 will be $9,734 in the US.

Duane Wood

8th October 2007, 00:09

The XR1200 is being released in the UK at $15,578. Given that the XL1200R is $14,235 in the UK, and $8,895 in the US, I figure the XR1200 will be $9,734 in the US.

If these are the prices H-D has authorized, then that's the way it goes. But, it sure seems odd to me that a bike with many more specialized parts that are not used on other Sportsters and reportedly putting out an additional 20+ hp, will sell for hundreds less than a 1200C or a Nightster. It's almost like selling a 300 hp Mustang GT for less than the standard, Mustang V-6.

However, based on some 70-75% of Sportster buyers preferring chrome over function, H-D may be in the unusual position of having to price the performance packaged XR1200 far lower than the chrome package, to make the sales. We'll know pretty soon.

Folkie

8th October 2007, 00:36

If these are the prices H-D has authorized, then that's the way it goes. But, it sure seems odd to me that a bike with many more specialized parts that are not used on other Sportsters and reportedly putting out an additional 20+ hp, will sell for hundreds less than a 1200C or a Nightster. It's almost like selling a 300 hp Mustang GT for less than the standard, Mustang V-6.

However, based on some 70-75% of Sportster buyers preferring chrome over function, H-D may be in the unusual position of having to price the performance packaged XR1200 far lower than the chrome package, to make the sales. We'll know pretty soon.In the UK, the Nighster is less than the 1200R: £6,695 (= $13,624), and the 1200C is more than the 1200R, but not by as much as in the US: £7,495 (= $15,253). So, the XR1200 at £7,655 (= $15,578) is the most expensive (but not by much).

Kev M

8th October 2007, 17:57

On the pricing, you have to also keep in mind that $9734 ish (if that prediction turns out to be true) would also put it right between the XB9 and XB12... and this type of more performance oriented sportster would have more potential cross-shopping customers than any sportster before it making that price point more important I think. Not critical, but more of a consideration.

Duane Wood

8th October 2007, 18:44

In the UK, the Nighster is less than the 1200R: £6,695 (= $13,624), and the 1200C is more than the 1200R, but not by as much as in the US: £7,495 (= $15,253). So, the XR1200 at £7,655 (= $15,578) is the most expensive (but not by much).

Now that's an interesting detail. It seems to reflect Europe's more performance-based purchasing vs. the U.S. chrome-based purchasing.
I thought it was mighty generous of H-D to "give" me a tach and second disc brake, just to take their "cheapest" 1200 Sportster off their hands.
A European release first makes sense, as their buyers are apparently willing to pay for extra performance, where it's dubious as to whether or not the U.S. market will tolerate it.

Kev M

8th October 2007, 19:55

Now that's an interesting detail. It seems to reflect Europe's more performance-based purchasing vs. the U.S. chrome-based purchasing.
I thought it was mighty generous of H-D to "give" me a tach and second disc brake, just to take their "cheapest" 1200 Sportster off their hands.
A European release first makes sense, as their buyers are apparently willing to pay for extra performance, where it's dubious as to whether or not the U.S. market will tolerate it.

I've been making that claim from the start.

Along with what I was told were better sales figures for the Vrod in Europe.

Folkie

9th October 2007, 01:45

Along with what I was told were better sales figures for the Vrod in Europe.I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I don't think they're selling many in the UK. Either that, or the folks that've got them don't ride them, and keep them in their garages! I've seen maybe three Vrods on the road, ever, whereas I might see 5 - 10 Sportsters or BTs most days, and two or three dozen isn't unusual.

Kev M

9th October 2007, 13:50

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I don't think they're selling many in the UK. Either that, or the folks that've got them don't ride them, and keep them in their garages! I've seen maybe three Vrods on the road, ever, whereas I might see 5 - 10 Sportsters or BTs most days, and two or three dozen isn't unusual.

Yeah, I know you've said that before, but that data came from an industry rag and a Harley sales guy, so I feel pretty confident about it.

Also, if EU buyers are anything like American Harley buyers, the vast majority of em buy em and park em... it's a small percentage who actually RIDE EM... :frownthre

xr1200

28th January 2008, 08:58

13600 Euro is about 19.983,51 us dollar thats the price for the xr1200 here in Holland they ask:frownone

lots of money but i have no choise so ....i ordered one.

And i,m gonna drive with it for funbike so i think about 7500 km a year .

gr xr1200

SCAGNETTI

29th April 2008, 17:36

I Voted Between 11k-12k, That's A Fair Price In Comparison To The Rest Of The Market, For A Bike With Similar Ammenities And Displacement. But We All Know H-d It Will Most Likely Start Around 13-14k. They Will Be In High Demand When They Come Out And Will Be Hard To Find, So That All Plays Into High Prices.

YOFFI

29th April 2008, 19:53

Got a letter from hd today saying delivery will be june/july and customers who have one on order will receive a signed Scott Parker no. board for being so patient:D

Bozinski

29th April 2008, 20:52

I think Buell, as a product line, is a bust for the MoCo.

Then why did H-D invest in it in the first place? Even if the bikes themselves don't fly off the sales floor, the trickle-down effect of Buell R&D to the XL line makes Sportsters more competitive in their market segments too.

Make an XR883 with the XB9 motor, speedo only, single disk and non adjustabale suspension.

Very good first point...I'd love for my 883 to perform at an XB9 level without having to step up to a full 1200 conversion. But I'd want a tach, dual discs, and adjustable suspension.

Get rid of the Buell line entirely and make the price $500 more vs the regular 883 and 1200R. More money for the MoCo, more choices for us!

Wrong! Buells are ALREADY a choice among those who value buying American but are not looking real hard at cruisers. If you aren't in the market for a H-D or Victory cruiser, then the only really viable US option is Buell. I like motorcycles. Different kinds of motorcycles. I got an 883R because it was a bike I really liked at a good price point. But even if I had stepped up to a 1200, it would have put me at a price point where I most likely would have just spent the extra dollars and bought a Ulysses instead. Or a nice 2005 Honda VFR800 Interceptor that I knew a local dealership had discounted over $2K. Besides, Buell profits still end up in the hands of the MoCo, so why not keep making them?

Rags

2nd May 2008, 02:47

I agree.

I suspect that Buell could benefit from some peripheral supportive marketing of tee shirts, hats and cocktail stirrers with the Buell logo. I think Buell is a cutting edge bike with it's engineering.

jemo07

22nd June 2008, 23:00

I think that they made a strategy to keep people from importing the bikes in to Europe for a while.... they are miking the Euro/Pound right now and will get to the US sales soon. I am waiting for the bike to be our in numbers a probably will buy one if and when the prices go down or get me a used/imported version a the end/next year.

I am still waiting for XL1200N right now, so I will have something to ride till then!
It's hard for me get anything above 8000Km a year on a bike since my everyday car only get 20K Km a year all together, so in a second bike I will get 2/3K Km if I really try so I hope that this version will be something I can hand down to my kids... if I ever have any :)

Folkie

22nd June 2008, 23:12

Ralphthe3rd

22nd June 2008, 23:41

Folkie, in the USA, on average, most drivers drive anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 miles per year, depending how far their work commute is. I know that alot folks in my rural area of PA, commute to the BIG Cities for work, and they are like 50 miles away, so 100 mile round trip days(or 500 mile work weeks) are commonplace around here. Now you know we are grumbing so much about the fuel prices going up !

I'd say 20,000 Km per year on the car sounds like a lot (about 12½ thousand miles, right?). How about riding the bike more and driving the car less? To me it really wouldn't be worth getting a second bike if I was only going to do 2,000 - 3,000 Km on it (1,240 - 1,860 miles in English money).

Folkie

23rd June 2008, 00:09

Yeah, I know that, but he's in Spain where I guess typical annual mileage would be similar to the UK. 10 thousand would be the norm here; 12½ thousand would be a bit on the high side.

Lots of people over here commute that distance (100 miles) or more, but usually by public transport rather than private car. It does happen, but I wouldn't say it's common. Of course some people (sales reps, for example) cover many many more miles, but they'e the exception rather than the rule.

jemo07

23rd June 2008, 10:07

I'd say 20,000 Km per year on the car sounds like a lot (about 12½ thousand miles, right?). How about riding the bike more and driving the car less? To me it really wouldn't be worth getting a second bike if I was only going to do 2,000 - 3,000 Km on it (1,240 - 1,860 miles in English money).

Yes, I plan to do a bit more driving on the bike :tour And the reason for the many miles on the car is that I did not have a bike in a long time and the fact that these are premium winter miles where I like to hit the slopes and drive out to Switzerland for that! ;)

I plan on getting the XR1200 for the HP and for the stock Cafe Racer look, as I was planing on getting out the US, getting a 90's Sportster 1200 and doing the Cafe Racer conversion, but the time and money (It's hard to even find a shop here in Madrid) would probably make me loose interest in the project.... :geek

Also, I plan to keep the XR longer that the Nightster.... If I loose interest in it's look, I might go for something else in the years to come... but I know that the XR I will keep! :wonderlan

jemo07

23rd June 2008, 10:10

Of course some people (sales reps, for example) cover many many more miles, but they'e the exception rather than the rule.

You hit the nail on the head there my friend! :doh

Ralphthe3rd

23rd June 2008, 14:49

BTW Jemo, the XR1200 is a Flattracker look, not a Café Racer look. To be in the Café genre, the wheels should be laced, the gas tank long and narrow, the seat long and leather and both fenders should be prominant, the exhaust should also be long and low ending in either a meg or reverse meg, and the handlebars should be clubman or clip-ons....thats what Café purists refer to as a Café Racer, although most XL converts are a slight mix of Café and Flattracker parts.

....I plan on getting the XR1200 for the HP and for the stock Cafe Racer look, as I was planing on getting out the US, getting a 90's Sportster 1200 and doing the Cafe Racer conversion, but the time and money (It's hard to even find a shop here in Madrid) would probably make me loose interest in the project.... :geek

Also, I plan to keep the XR longer that the Nightster.... If I loose interest in it's look, I might go for something else in the years to come... but I know that the XR I will keep! :wonderlan

Kev M

23rd June 2008, 15:36

BTW Jemo, the XR1200 is a Flattracker look, not a Café Racer look. To be in the Café genre, the wheels should be laced, the gas tank long and narrow, the seat long and leather and both fenders should be prominant, the exhaust should also be long and low ending in either a meg or reverse meg, and the handlebars should be clubman or clip-ons....thats what Café purists refer to as a Café Racer, although most XL converts are a slight mix of Café and Flattracker parts.

Actually, I'd argue that the flattracker and Café are related enough that the XR1200 is mostly just some clip-ons away from it now.

Yeah, laced wheels are classic, but that's not why most Café Racers had em, they had em, cause that's what was mostly available back then.

The seat and tail-section are fine on the XR1200 for a Café, as is the front fender.

Exhaust, well, yeah, that look could be different, but functionally it's there.

I'd take the XR1200 as a starting point for a Café, cause it's just not a far reach from where it is, to where it would need to be.

Todd31de

23rd June 2008, 16:25

I'd take the XR1200 as a starting point for a Café, cause it's just not a far reach from where it is, to where it would need to be.

I would like to see the MoCo offer kits to the XR. Like an XLCR kit or something for $500-$700. That way you get all the parts in one box and bolt on. You could customize from there but at least they would give you a nice starting point.

Ralphthe3rd

23rd June 2008, 16:55

Kev, the term Café Racer is all about retro...giving the look of the bygone era -which converted bikes to road racer looks, because there weren't sportbikes available. So today, a Café Purist would argue- you can't call it a Café Racer if it doesn't have the whole package. Hell, it would be easier to turn a Nightster into a Café or any of the laced wheel XL's. I still say NO to the XR1200 as starting point for a Café, that would be like saying a Dodge Viper is a good starting point in building a retro muscle car....Ahhh NO!
Actually, I'd argue that the flattracker and Café are related enough that the XR1200 is mostly just some clip-ons away from it now.

Yeah, laced wheels are classic, but that's not why most Café Racers had em, they had em, cause that's what was mostly available back then.

The seat and tail-section are fine on the XR1200 for a Café, as is the front fender.

Exhaust, well, yeah, that look could be different, but functionally it's there.

I'd take the XR1200 as a starting point for a Café, cause it's just not a far reach from where it is, to where it would need to be.

Todd31de

23rd June 2008, 17:01

I just found the HD accessory page in the UK.

http://accessories.harley-davidson.com/xr1200/default.aspx

They have it set up as a nice sport tourer. Damn now I really want one.

jemo07

23rd June 2008, 17:24

BTW Jemo, the XR1200 is a Flattracker look, not a Café Racer look. To be in the Café genre, the wheels should be laced, the gas tank long and narrow, the seat long and leather and both fenders should be prominant, the exhaust should also be long and low ending in either a meg or reverse meg, and the handlebars should be clubman or clip-ons....thats what Café purists refer to as a Café Racer, although most XL converts are a slight mix of Café and Flattracker parts.

I guess I would not fall into that category of been a purist! :wonderlan
I was planning or removing some non essentials off the bike... change the handlebars and slight mod tho the seat...

But in all honesty, I thought that Cafe Racer was more or less the concept of making the bike better handling and faster... something that XR is made to be... more sporty. Be able to wager a bet to go from point to point the fastest? Or from point to point before a song changed in the jukebox? I thought the XR cover allot of these grounds... maybe an exhaust change would be the last thing I do... but like I said I am not a purist as far as Racer Cafe would be. I appreciate your comments and your bike and pictures!

BTW, what are these pipes?

http://xlforum.net/photopost/watermark.php?file=22336&size=1

Folkie

23rd June 2008, 17:27

I just found the HD accessory page in the UK.

http://accessories.harley-davidson.com/xr1200/default.aspx

They have it set up as a nice sport tourer. Damn now I really want one.Where did you find that? If you go on the H-D UK website and look at accessories, you've never been able to see any (apart from 'Essentials' kits).

Todd31de

23rd June 2008, 17:44

The pipes are Suppertrapp XR 2:2.

Where did you find that? If you go on the H-D UK website and look at accessories, you've never been able to see any (apart from 'Essentials' kits).

Yes go there and hit the "My Dream Harley" link. The bikes are listed to the left.

Kev M

23rd June 2008, 17:47

Kev, the term Café Racer is all about retro...giving the look of the bygone era -which converted bikes to road racer looks, because there weren't sportbikes available. So today, a Café Purist would argue- you can't call it a Café Racer if it doesn't have the whole package. Hell, it would be easier to turn a Nightster into a Café or any of the laced wheel XL's. I still say NO to the XR1200 as starting point for a Café, that would be like saying a Dodge Viper is a good starting point in building a retro muscle car....Ahhh NO!

Argue all you want, but who gives a crap, it's all semantics.

Cafe Racer's weren't about RETRO when the genre was invented. They were about stripping some parts of the bikes (similar to bobbers) in order to improve aerodynamics and weight, then making other modifications that improved handling (some of the same ones like clip-ons could be argued did both).

They were about building ton-up bikes that could be raced from one location to another on tight UK streets.

What are you gonna say next, we can't have a Cafe bike in the US cause we would be riding em on the wrong side of the road. :p

Kev

PS - look at the XR750 and the XLCR, visually they share the same basic lines for the fender, tank and tail section... the XR is 90% of the way there already.

Oh and F@$% spokes!

Folkie

23rd June 2008, 18:01

Yes go there and hit the "My Dream Harley" link. The bikes are listed to the left.Oh yes; never knew that was there.

Ralphthe3rd

23rd June 2008, 18:11

When You Kev- have an opinion- it's Gods word, but when someone else has something to say, it's- "who gives a crap".
Retro is what a modern bike converted to LOOK Like a Café Racer is all about... I wasn't saying that original Café Racers were retro, I said they were built to look like the Roadracers of their day- since there weren't sportbikes available. And if you look at my point- it's certainly valid, IE- by the time you strip off everything on the XR to make it into a Café Retro racer, what you have is a base model or just an XL1200... Coz you had to ditch the wheels, the swingarm, the gas tank(and probably the seat), the handlebars, the exhaust and then what have you left- an rubbermount XL frame and a mildly warmed over XL1200 motor.... which really won't LOOK right without an exposed air filter etc.
And don't start putting words in my mouth!(What are you gonna say next, we can't have a Cafe bike in the US cause we would be riding em on the wrong side of the road.) As for today, it is about Retro Café...and that just seems to be a look some people desire.
And yeah, look at the XLCR and tell me how many Café Racer fans bought it ?
PS- if you look at alot of the tails of Jap bikes of the same era as the XLCR...you'll also see it was just a common style tail....the only thing that really made the XLCR -Café, was the 1/4 fairing, the long squared gas tank, and low pipes on either side.

*sighs*

Argue all you want, but who gives a crap, it's all semantics.

Cafe Racer's weren't about RETRO when the genre was invented. They were about stripping some parts of the bikes (similar to bobbers) in order to improve aerodynamics and weight, then making other modifications that improved handling (some of the same ones like clip-ons could be argued did both).

They were about building ton-up bikes that could be raced from one location to another on tight UK streets.

What are you gonna say next, we can't have a Cafe bike in the US cause we would be riding em on the wrong side of the road. :p

Kev

PS - look at the XR750 and the XLCR, visually they share the same basic lines for the fender, tank and tail section... the XR is 90% of the way there already.

Oh and F@$% spokes!

drd1135

23rd June 2008, 21:38

I just found the HD accessory page in the UK.

http://accessories.harley-davidson.com/xr1200/default.aspx

They have it set up as a nice sport tourer. Damn now I really want one.

That's really nice. Sport-touring on a Sportster, what a concept.

Kev M

23rd June 2008, 22:27

but when RALPHH has something to say, it's- "crap".

There fix't it for ya. :smoke

and you're still wrong. :p

VISUALLY the XLXR and the XR1200R are actually pretty damn close (exhaust and 1/4 fairing not-with-standing).

If you wanted to make a COOL, MODERN CAFE RACER the XR1200 would be an AWSOME place to start, cause all you'd need are maybe clip ons, maybe differnt controls, and a 1/4 cafe fairing.

THAT'S ALL he (and I) meant. :doh

JEEEZZZZ :rolleyes:

Ralphthe3rd

24th June 2008, 14:04

I still totally disagree with ya... There is a definate distinction between Cafe and Streetracker, and wasting an XR1200 to create a Cafe is rather dumb, the tank looks totally too modern to fit the Café genre(heck it doesn't look too correct for a Flattracker either)it would be alot easier (and cheaper) to convert a Nightster into a Café. Btw Kev, you can kiss myhttp://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/butthead.gif

~Ralphhttp://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/mooner.gif

Ralph->http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/barfshower.gif<-Kev

There fix't it for ya. :smoke

and you're still wrong. :p

Kev M

24th June 2008, 15:55

wasting an XR1200 to create a Cafe is rather dumb, the tank looks totally too modern to fit the Café genre

Have you ever even SEEN AN XLCR????????????????

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/02xlcr.jpg

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/05xlcr.jpg

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/10xlcr.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m97/YOFFI69/xr1200s002.jpg

http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/Harley-Davidson/H-D_XR1200_Proto-028r.jpg

Dude the tank lines, even the flat sections capture totally the same look.

Same with the tail section.

Oh, and look at that, CAST WHEELS, WHAT AN F'N SUPRISE.

IT's 70-80% of the way to an XLCR factory CAFE RACER already!

:p

Ole

24th June 2008, 16:12

Yah...and STILL fugly...

:roflblack

cafe_dave

24th June 2008, 18:29

Have you ever even SEEN AN XLCR????????????????

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/02xlcr.jpg

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/05xlcr.jpg

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/10xlcr.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m97/YOFFI69/xr1200s002.jpg

http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/Harley-Davidson/H-D_XR1200_Proto-028r.jpg

Dude the tank lines, even the flat sections capture totally the same look.

Same with the tail section.

Oh, and look at that, CAST WHEELS, WHAT AN F'N SUPRISE.

IT's 70-80% of the way to an XLCR factory CAFE RACER already!

:p

I agree........I wonder if a cafe would do well in todays market......Some people feel it was before its time......I feel it failed because it wasn't competitive performance wise against the Japanese

Kev M

24th June 2008, 18:47

I agree........I wonder if a cafe would do well in todays market......Some people feel it was before its time......I feel it failed because it wasn't competitive performance wise against the Japanese

Meaning like a Thruxton?

I hear they do reasonably well...

Swampman

24th June 2008, 18:49

It needs to be cheaper than the Super Glide or Street Bob. If not, it won't sell.

cafe_dave

24th June 2008, 18:57

Meaning like a Thruxton?

I hear they do reasonably well...

Yes...but the market is so different now....Hey Kev...whats your view on the latest and possibly newest Naked bikes from Japan....

Kev M

24th June 2008, 19:21

Yes...but the market is so different now....Hey Kev...whats your view on the latest and possibly newest Naked bikes from Japan....

I don't keep up with them really.

I mean, I liked a bunch a couple of years ago from the Bandit 1200 to the SV650 and the like.

But these days everything seems to have ugly fairings... I dunno.

I thought I'd like the Versys, but I finally saw one in person the other day and it's kinda odd looking.

Honestly, I liked things like the Honda 919 or what was it the Hornet CB599.

I lean much more towards Harleys and Euros.... the Euros if I'm looking for a more refined chassis.

Kev

PS - I kinda liked the Kawi ZRX when it was around and was heartbroken last week when a buddy bought a Vulcan instead of a W650...

cafe_dave

24th June 2008, 19:26

I seen a neat KTM the other day......The guy riding it said he owned the dealership but couldnt quote me a price..neat bike though

Ralphthe3rd

24th June 2008, 21:21

Yes I've seem THEM, I've riden them and a friend owns one ! But the XLCR did NOT look like a Café Racer either !
The '89-'90 Honda GB500 looked like a Cafe Racer -
http://www.hoc.org.uk/gallery/bikes/GB500_1990.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1340/1445041734_4753b02f6d_o.jpg
Now compare to a Nightser and don't tell me the XR1200 would be easier to make into a Café..
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2146/2112561947_99472fa7d1.jpg?v=0

The XLCR Looked like a Bastard stepchild of an XR750 mother...not a Café Racer... dude you really ought to learn what a Café Racer looks like- and the XLCR wasn't one- just only in name ! What the XLCR really looked like were the converted XR750TT that they used at Daytona... So in a sense, they named the bike wrong, as it was emulating the actual H-D Roadracer of the day, which was derived from the Flattracker with added aerodynamic fairing.

Have you ever even SEEN AN XLCR????????????????

Dude the tank lines, even the flat sections capture totally the same look.

Same with the tail section.

Oh, and look at that, CAST WHEELS, WHAT AN F'N SUPRISE.

IT's 70-80% of the way to an XLCR factory CAFE RACER already!

:p

Kev M

24th June 2008, 21:29

Yes I did say in the beginning of this that I'd think clip-ons would be more authentic for a cafe - but that doesn't stop the fact that people referred to the XLCR (CR as in Cafe Racer) as a factory CAFE RACER for DECADES.

And the XR1200 shares a shyte-load of styling features with the XLCR

THEREFORE it's a small step from XR1200 to XLCR which is ONE EXAMPLE OF A CAFE RACER YOU MYOPIC GARGANTUAN TOAD :p :p :p

No shyte it doesn't in and of itself define the genre, but you don't have to look at the genre though the eye of a needle either.

Open your mind a little.

JEEEEZZZ

Other CAFE RACERS

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/DSCF0753.jpg

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/47_3.jpg

jharback

24th June 2008, 21:40

Yes I've seem THEM, I've riden them and a friend owns one ! But the XLCR did NOT look like a Café Racer either !

Now compare to a Nightser and don't tell me the XR1200 would be easier to make into a Café..

Here is what a cafe racer really looks like:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh90/jharback/ktmcafe.jpg

Now how can you say that a nightster can look more like this than an XR1200 I'll never know. Their both so far from a modern cafe racer it's unbelievable.

The XR1200 is supposed to bring back the styling and feel of the XLXR and it does that quite well. Your trying to compare apples and oranges to a bannana.

Ralphthe3rd

24th June 2008, 21:41

Ralphthe3rd

24th June 2008, 21:43

Thats a Naked home made Streetfighter....
Here is what a cafe racer really looks like:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh90/jharback/ktmcafe.jpg

Now how can you say that a nightster can look more like this than an XR1200 I'll never know. Their both so far from a modern cafe racer it's unbelievable.

The XR1200 is supposed to bring back the styling and feel of the XLXR and it does that quite well. Your trying to compare apples and oranges to a bannana.

cafe_dave

24th June 2008, 21:52

Kev M

24th June 2008, 21:54

And YOU should take your Blinders off ! If the XR1200 was truly destined for Overseas sales only, why didn't they just style it LIKE a True Cafe Racer- maybe even bring back the XLCR moniker ?! But NO- they named it XR1200 because of it's Flattrack lines- NOT Cafe Racer lines.... coz the Nightster already Was Harley's lame attempt at a Bobber/Cafe Racer.... DUDE- I originally started this debate when that fellow mentioned he wanted to buy an XR1200 and turn it into a Café, when in fact he already had bought a Nightster, which would be a helluva lot closer looking to a True Café racer right off the showroom floor.
Don't pull your over righteous I know everything about bikes crap on me, I've lived it...how long have you been riding ? I got my street license in 1974 and had already been riding and racing dirt bikes for 6 years prior.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ONE WORD is all I need for you Ralph

"MYOPIC"

If I've got blinders on, you can't even open your eyes wide enough to see.

flat track this, cafe that - good god man they are only freakin' bikes.

I know we love bikes, but why do people have to be so narrow-minded about them.

The XR1200 would make an awesome cafe - it's most of the way their already.

It would make an even better XLCR.

If you can't see that, fine, but you're the one who jumped down someone's throat on this, I just tried to help broaden your narrow spectrum.

Kev M

24th June 2008, 21:56

I think a lot of the confusion comes from "Cafe Fairing".....Look at the adds of the day for the Z1-R.....
I guess some people that are not really all that into....or knowledgeable of bikes might think if it has a bikini fairing it must be a cafe..

Obviously, and I think you an I probably agree on this, one single element does not define a bike of either the flat track or cafe racer genre.

And, I think we can probably both agree there is likely a decent amount of overlap in the genres.

THAT'S all I've been trying to say, and to point out some of the overlaps one might find in the XR1200.