What should the MSRP of the XR1200 be when/if H-D releases it in the US? I know they haven't talked about releasing it in the US. I know it's a prototype. But what do you think H-D will price it at when it's released in the US?

Can't answer.

I live Down Under.

Don't care how much it costs in other countries.

It'll be 3 times the price down here anyway.

And I don't want one anyway :laugh

I say it will be $13,000.

I voted what I think it should be to sell well ($9999), but I suspect it will start with a $10,...

Can't answer.

I live Down Under.

Don't care how much it costs in other countries.

It'll be 3 times the price down here anyway.

And I don't want one anyway :laugh

Given that a new 1200R is $17,950 ride away down here I'm guessin the XR will have to be 20 plus.....:(

Makes my Uly ($16,500 ride away) look kinda cheap....;)

I think it SHOULD be around 9K. But I think it WILL be between 10-11K. (or more)

I think they should just give me one, but I can see spendin $11k +.

I am buying the uly. In my opinion a better allaround bike.

I am buying the uly. In my opinion a better allaround bike.


Better is in the eye (needs) of the beholder (buyer).

Personally I like the Uly, but it is much uglier.

Anyone see the new Guzzi 940 Custom, just announced this morning.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=8159.0

Another competitor for this niche.

K

Kev, you think that will compete with a Sportster? I think the target markets are totally different. And no, you're not the average consumer, since you already HAVE a Guzzi.

--Chris

Kev, you think that will compete with a Sportster? I think the target markets are totally different. And no, you're not the average consumer, since you already HAVE a Guzzi.

--Chris


No I said I thought that would compete with an XR1200 :p

The XR1200 is moving into a segment that's a tad different than the typical Sportster segment.

As I've said before, populated by things like some Guzzis (Griso, but moreso by this new 940 Custom which is spanning the bridge between the old Californias like mine, and the new Griso), Ducati Sportclassics, Triumph Thruxton/Scrambler and the like.

Kev

I see them with a price tag starting with a 12k, includes delivery, steeler prep, tax, tags. i know they were pretty proud of the 100th aniversary models especially the 1200's.

Don't care how much it costs...I don't want one anyway :laugh
Strewth for me matey! :roflblack

Considering this is being released in Europe first (only?) - I would say the Ducati's and Guzzi's could definitely be considered its competition. Even here, the more traditional potential Harley owner is probably going to go for the 1200C model or the cheapest big twin they can afford. I think they are hoping that the XR is going to crossover into the non-squid sportbike/naked bike buyer. As far as the poll I put that it *should* cost less than $9000 considering what you can get from other manufacturers, but we will see what they go for. Whatever they can get away with most likely. If they don't sell at $11,000 they will be discounted - they certainly don't cost anymore to build than an XL1200R.

Considering this is being released in Europe first (only?) - I would say the Ducati's and Guzzi's could definitely be considered its competition. Even here, the more traditional potential Harley owner is probably going to go for the 1200C model or the cheapest big twin they can afford. I think they are hoping that the XR is going to crossover into the non-squid sportbike/naked bike buyer. As far as the poll I put that it *should* cost less than $9000 considering what you can get from other manufacturers, but we will see what they go for. Whatever they can get away with most likely. If they don't sell at $11,000 they will be discounted - they certainly don't cost anymore to build than an XL1200R.

:clap :clap :clap

Well reasoned!

Always good to see such solid logic!!!!

If they don't sell at $11,000 they will be discounted - they certainly don't cost anymore to build than an XL1200R.


I woulda thought they'd cost a fair bit more to build.......

It's a whole new bike with alota new parts.......and waaaayy upspec compared to a 1200R.........not to mention R&D costs that companies like to recoup..

I am buying the uly. In my opinion a better allaround bike.



:iagree ..........you wont be dissapointed..........;)

Considering this is being released in Europe first (only?) - I would say the Ducati's and Guzzi's could definitely be considered its competition. Even here, the more traditional potential Harley owner is probably going to go for the 1200C model or the cheapest big twin they can afford. I think they are hoping that the XR is going to crossover into the non-squid sportbike/naked bike buyer. As far as the poll I put that it *should* cost less than $9000 considering what you can get from other manufacturers, but we will see what they go for. Whatever they can get away with most likely. If they don't sell at $11,000 they will be discounted - they certainly don't cost anymore to build than an XL1200R.

Problem is it never will compete with a Ducati monster or Guzzi.. The Monster will be a better performing, better handling bike.. And people who are buying Guzzis are buying them for very different reasons. Maybe it will compete with the Ducati Classics.. But I suspect in 5 years time they are going to be horribly dated anyway.

Infact, trying to compete against Italian manufacturers is a waste of time, people don't buy Italian bikes for on paper specs or for cheap prices.. Ask Honda just how well their 'VTwin Superbike' sold.. Which on paper put out more power, handled better and was cheaper than a Ducati 996.

Having owned 2 Monsters, I have to say if the XR and the Monster were the same price, I'd struggle to pony up the cash for the XR.. I couldn't do it for the Buell when I took one for a ride.

I think Buell, as a product line, is a bust for the MoCo.

Make an XR883 with the XB9 motor, speedo only, single disk and non adjustabale suspension.

Then give the rest of us the XR1200 / XB12 with 80 or 90 crank HP, fully adjustable suspension (and stiffer springs this time dammit!), and the tach.

Get rid of the Buell line entirely and make the price $500 more vs the regular 883 and 1200R. More money for the MoCo, more choices for us!

I didn't vote cause wishful thinking is a waste of time.

The poll shold be "What is the most you would pay for an XR1200."

:doh

I think Buell, as a product line, is a bust for the MoCo.


Get rid of the Buell line entirely



.............:laugh :laugh :laugh ............



..............followed by..............



...............:spank :spank :spank ..........

Ouch!

jmho, deal with it.

Problem is it never will compete with a Ducati monster or Guzzi.. The Monster will be a better performing, better handling bike.. And people who are buying Guzzis are buying them for very different reasons. Maybe it will compete with the Ducati Classics.. But I suspect in 5 years time they are going to be horribly dated anyway.

Infact, trying to compete against Italian manufacturers is a waste of time, people don't buy Italian bikes for on paper specs or for cheap prices.. Ask Honda just how well their 'VTwin Superbike' sold.. Which on paper put out more power, handled better and was cheaper than a Ducati 996.

Having owned 2 Monsters, I have to say if the XR and the Monster were the same price, I'd struggle to pony up the cash for the XR.. I couldn't do it for the Buell when I took one for a ride.


WAIT A MINUTE, you're arguing against yourself.

In the first paragraph you're saying they can't compete because of specs.

In the 2nd and 3rd you're showing why they CAN compete, irregardless of specs.

And is the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs which support my points. You don't have to eat the other bike for lunch to "compete" or "cross-shop"

I think people buy Guzzis, Ducatis AND Harleys based on a lot of things other than JUST pure specs. But you have to be in the same ballpark. I mean, to cross-shop two bikes, they need to share some commonalities.

And I think there are plenty of commonalities. Different strengths and weaknesses and particulars in styling, but certainly lots of common ground.

Kev

I think Buell, as a product line, is a bust for the MoCo.

Get rid of the Buell line entirely and make the price $500 more vs the regular 883 and 1200R. More money for the MoCo, more choices for us!



This point has been debated elsewhere, but I believe that Buell's sales figures this year will eclipse Moto Guzzis.

At least the sell more Buells than some manufacturers (Guzzi, Ducati, how about KTM or Husq or Aprillia) sell total bikes in the US.

So "bust" is a relative term.

I don't agree with the rest of your plan because Buell is slowly but surely making inroads for Harley in another area. And diversification is good.

As does the Vrod line.

As I THINK WILL the XR line.

But time will tell.

Kev

I struggle with the aesthetic of Buell's - I liked the way the tube frame models looked. The newer ones are growing on me though. The Ulysses is one I would consider owning. The styling is more appropriate on that bike, just look at a BMW 1200GS and how funky they are. For a naked bike I like the classic look of a cafe racer or flat tracker. The other issue I had with Buells until the release of the Ulysses is the fact they are so small. I'm 6'4 and skinny, I can tuck in and fit on a small bike, but really feel more comfortable on something bigger. I don't think the Buell line is a bust by any means. The Uly is getting rave reviews.

When I said the XR shouldn't cost more to build than the XL1200 it was also in comparison to say a Ducati Monster. What can you buy from other manufacturers (that have the same costs as Harley) for $9000? What are wages in Italy like? The Monsters come with good brakes and shocks for a decent price. The XL1200's sell simply because they are a Harley and people don't want to upgrade an 883 themselves. Should an XL1200 cost that much more than an 883?

Harleys sell in Asia and Europe because they are Harleys. American icons. The same reason Marlboro cigarettes sell there. And Levis. They are good bikes, but it could be argued that Honda or Yamaha build a better bike for the money. But it isn't a Harley.... I think it will be interesting to see how Harley markets the XR both in Europe and the US.

Makarov - some good points.

Some related thoughts.

Aesthetics - for years I kept wondering how BMW was going to survive when each time they redesigned a bike it got uglier. Then when they came out with some REALLY ugly oilheads I realized that each generation made the previous one suddenly look better to me. ;)

As for price and performance comparisons, here are some bikes I considered purchasing this summer. They are ranked loosely in order of slowest to quickest quarter mile. You'll notice that price increases with performance as much as it does with CCs.

Specs are Bike - Weight (dry, lbs) - Torque (ft. lbs.) @ rpm / HP @ rpm - MSRP)


Stock HD 1200 (rear wheel) - 68 ft. lbs. @ 3500 / 59 hp @ 5500
HD 1200R - 550 - 79 @ 3500 / 66 (RWHP stock, 72-76 RWHP stage 1) - $8595

Buell XB9 - 390 - 70 @ 5500 / 92 @ 7500 - $8895 (SX or R)

Duc M620 - 370 - 41 @ 6750 / 63 @ 9500 - $6995

Duc M695 - 370 - 45 @ 6750 / 73 @ 8500 - $6995

M800 S2R - 381 - 53 @ 6500 / 77 @ 8250 - $8495

S2R 1000 - 392 - 69 @ 6000 / 95 @ 8000 - $9995

Buell X12 - 395 - 84 @ 6000 / 103 @ 6800 - $10,495 (Scg)


Is the Ducati M800 or M1000 each THAT much more expensive to build than a M620 or M695?

In this country at least, a bike with more CCs and more performance can almost always command more (at least when comparing similar styles, as there are plenty of 600SS bikes that sell for less and outperform this whole field, but they are in a different category).

WAIT A MINUTE, you're arguing against yourself.

In the first paragraph you're saying they can't compete because of specs.

In the 2nd and 3rd you're showing why they CAN compete, irregardless of specs.

And is the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs which support my points. You don't have to eat the other bike for lunch to "compete" or "cross-shop"

I think people buy Guzzis, Ducatis AND Harleys based on a lot of things other than JUST pure specs. But you have to be in the same ballpark. I mean, to cross-shop two bikes, they need to share some commonalities.

And I think there are plenty of commonalities. Different strengths and weaknesses and particulars in styling, but certainly lots of common ground.

Kev

Yes and no..
Obviously you will always have shoppers who DO buy based on Specs.. The XR won't be able to compete there..

But reality is, majority of people who buy Italian motorcycles (and American really) are buying because of the emotional factor..

Now if you are shopping for something 'fast, red and Italian' you wouldn't give the XR a second look.
If you were looking for a sexy naked bike.. 'fraid its the Italians again.
If you were looking for on paper specs.. Italian..

I personally LIKE the XR.. But if its going to go head to head with Euro bikes price wise, it will lose.. Look on these boards, even Harley owners are not knowing much about HDs racing history.. most of the world know Ducati, they are the 'Ferarri of bikes'. HD don't have a known racing history for most people, this will confuse them.

I honestly can't see who the XR is aiming at, Harley is a joke in 90% of biking circles, honestly, look at half of the f***tards who blat about on drag bike equipped chrome sleds with their gay little scull caps and those queer little face masks trying to be all 'bad boy'. I can appreciate HD is tring to break free of that market, but they may just struggle.

And again, in all honesty.. Outside of America very few people know or care what flat track is.

Buell has a new 07 model, the XB12Ss with the longer wheelbase Uly frame and without most of the Uly ugly:

http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/lightning/xb12ss/features.asp

Should be more comfy for bigger humans!

It should be $9500 and you shouldn't have to change a bunch of parts to "make it your own" I mean comfortable.
Hey Harley, feel free to sell it for less.

This is like taking a survey that asks how much you'd be willing to pay for a movie ticket. The theaters get this info and then charge a little more than what most people say because they know you're willing to pay it.

I say the XR1200 should cost about $6000.

Yes and no..
Obviously you will always have shoppers who DO buy based on Specs.. The XR won't be able to compete there..

But reality is, majority of people who buy Italian motorcycles (and American really) are buying because of the emotional factor..

Now if you are shopping for something 'fast, red and Italian' you wouldn't give the XR a second look.
If you were looking for a sexy naked bike.. 'fraid its the Italians again.
If you were looking for on paper specs.. Italian..


I disagree, what you are stating is that it is all gotta be black OR white, and my experience shows that the majority falls somewhere in between.

I've known many buyers who are not JUST brand loyal, but who are style loyal. Something fast, red and Italian can mean more than just Ducati, and some of those guys also cross-shop Japanese bikes, and some of them also cross-shop Harleys.


I personally LIKE the XR.. But if its going to go head to head with Euro bikes price wise, it will lose.. Look on these boards, even Harley owners are not knowing much about HDs racing history.. most of the world know Ducati, they are the 'Ferarri of bikes'. HD don't have a known racing history for most people, this will confuse them.


I honestly can't see who the XR is aiming at, Harley is a joke in 90% of biking circles, honestly, look at half of the f***tards who blat about on drag bike equipped chrome sleds with their gay little scull caps and those queer little face masks trying to be all 'bad boy'. I can appreciate HD is tring to break free of that market, but they may just struggle.



Uh, I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that Guzzi has a longer and stronger racing history, but alas, it's not as strong in most recent history.

But that doesn't stop people from seeking them out.

And yeah there are plenty of Harley neanderthals, but there are more and more open-minded new owners (see a good percentage of this board).

I guess this whole thing is not about limits and extremes, but about finding new middle grounds, blends, commonalities.

From the H-D 'Enthusiast' magazine article on Sportsters:

"Prototypes aren't new to Harley-Davidson, but showing them to the public is. Whether or not this XR 1200 prototype becomes reality depends largely on public reaction in Europe. Are they hungry for a Harley like this?"

Still the European focus. Maybe they don't think they can sell enough of them here to make it worthwhile? Or maybe it's just Europe first, as some other manufacturers have done. Might be a smart move, as they wouldn't have to make as many to cover the European market as they would for a full-scale American launch. Then, if it works in Europe and generates a lot of demand, they could bring it here in a few years. Given their not-so-stellar experience marketing the Buell line, perhaps they've learned something and are just being cautious this time.

One of the Strengths/afflictions of the Sportster has always been that its very easy to work on, and modify. In the grand tradition of the American back yard mechanic, we tend to say "Heck, I can get the base model, and get more out of it for less than that dang factory machine." With any number of catalogs and speed shops (Storz, NHRS etc) to help out.

Thus a bike like the XR 1200 will be lauded by the very folks who will then ignore it on the showroom floor, as they walk past it to a base XL 883, Hi Po catalogs tucked beneath their arm.

This desire largly does not exist in the rest of the world, by either inclination or legislation, thus factory performance options become more desirable. So sell it to the Euros to make the needed volume for full production, and keep only so many in this country as can be sold.

i would like to see it stay under $10,000 like the rest of the family!

I'm with you MA on this one. Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200. And, one that will run circles around it for a lot less money.

I have posted my opinion on this before. The XR1200 is nothing more than a dressed up sporstster. As such, nothing that anybody here can't do themselves. Not too original.

On the other hand, I would like to see somebody try and copy my original XR1000 out of a catalog. That was a true original design in the tradition of the Buell's and VRSC's that followed.

It's probally a good design for the europeans though.

Jesse

I like the way HD is finally giving us a good foundation to start with. Much better frame, suspension, wheels, bodywork, motor etc. I can take it from there.
I doubt that anyone can build this same bike for the price that they will sell it for. Maybe you can make your sporty as fast but not much else.

The Guzzis are EASILY competitors for an XR1200. Especially in Europe.

I have posted my opinion on this before. The XR1200 is nothing more than a dressed up sporstster. As such, nothing that anybody here can't do themselves. Not too original.

On the other hand, I would like to see somebody try and copy my original XR1000 out of a catalog. That was a true original design in the tradition of the Buell's and VRSC's that followed.



Jesse





Huh? That seems kind of backward to me. The XR1000 had nothing special about it (I did lust over them though) except a set of heads, pipes, and carbs. The frame, bodywork, suspension, bottom end, hokey 16/19 wheel combo, controls, brakes,etc.....where all standard Sportster. And XR motors were available from the factory, so yeah, it could have been easily duplicated.

The XR1200 has/will have way more proprietary parts to it. Suspension, wheels, rearsets (finally!), bodywork, ...... Duplicate it with parts catalogs? Maybe if you have a winning lotto ticket in your pocket.

I've been modding my base '01 over several years now and I'm already deeper into it than I would like to be and that's with lots of compromises and just modding a lot of the factory stuff to just work better. And it still has a lot of issues. Not to mention all the miles I haven't ridden it due to the fact it is usually partially disassembled while I'm trying to find time to work on it or waiting for parts. I'd much rather have something that's ready to go with quality parts that work, from the factory, and then satisfy my tinkering needs refining what is provided a little more if I feel like it, so I can spend more time riding it, rather than re-engineering it.

I say bring it on, and if they are really serious about selling them, price it just under $10k, don't get greedy, just get it established in the marketplace as a serious alternative to other sporting standards and let the Sportster have it's image back.

I'm with you MA on this one. Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200. And, one that will run circles around it for a lot less money.


You're saying just about anyone can buy a $6995 base sporty and then spend

$1200 on a 1200 conversion w/buell or better heads
$1000 on wheels
$500 or so on dual 4-piston caliper brakes
$1000+ on body work (tank, rear clip)
$??? what for the custom swing arm?
$??? for downdraft EFI? Ok, we go with the new 07 EFI and just instead go with a reflash plus what???
$300+ for exhaust
$500+ inverted fork assembly

We're looking at $7000 for the base 883 and AT LEAST $5k of parts plus the time to assemble them.

So I say BS to your "Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200"

K

You're saying just about anyone can buy a $6995 base sporty and then spend

$1200 on a 1200 conversion w/buell or better heads
$1000 on wheels
$500 or so on dual 4-piston caliper brakes
$1000+ on body work (tank, rear clip)
$??? what for the custom swing arm?
$??? for downdraft EFI? Ok, we go with the new 07 EFI and just instead go with a reflash plus what???
$300+ for exhaust
$500+ inverted fork assembly

We're looking at $7000 for the base 883 and AT LEAST $5k of parts plus the time to assemble them.

So I say BS to your "Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200"

K

Gee, we ARE back to $13,000+. Most dealers already "gouge" people for $10,000+ for a 1200R.

The XR1200 will come with all of these nice go fast and handle goodies ans still retain a warranty. If HD prices it right , I dont see why they wont sell the crap out of these bikes.
We need to also include the price of a new frame that the other sportys wont have.

Gee, we ARE back to $13,000+. Most dealers already "gouge" people for $10,000+ for a 1200R.

I don't give a flyingmothercumfruckthrougharollingjellydonut what you think "most" dealers are going to do. I've been buying NEW Harleys for going on two decades and I've NEVER paid more than MSRP for one and I never will.

IF they build the XR1200 and price it ANYWHERE near the reasonable point for the market, I.E. $10k ish, I WILL BUY ONE.

IF they build it and try to price it at $13k it WILL flop and I will likely admire it from afar while riding my new Guzzi, Ducati or Buell.

But IF you look at Harley's pricing of the Sporster line (or even one big twin vs. another) I think you'll see that they normally at least price any one premium model for less than it would cost you to buy the base model and upgrade it.

If would take a heck of a lot more than the price difference to upgrage the 883L to the 1200L, or the 883R to the 1200R, or the 883C to the 1200C, so I cannot believe for a second they are going to overprice the XR1200 anywhere NEAR the amount it would take you to convert an $8995 1200R to an XR1200.

The XR1200 will come with all of these nice go fast and handle goodies ans still retain a warranty. If HD prices it right , I dont see why they wont sell the crap out of these bikes.
We need to also include the price of a new frame that the other sportys wont have.

Don't forget that in Europe, the XR will have to compete against the S2R and S4R Ducks - along with their new "retro" models. Piaggio is serious as a heart attack about getting into "motorcycles" and the new Moto Guzzis (financed by world leader, Piaggio) will also be circling the XR waters. The Jap naked bikes are not in the same theme, but still grab at sales with blistering performance at the same or lower cost. BMW is also on the march to vastly expand it's market and has upped it's hp to a competitive level. Triumph continues forward with it's own two and three cylinder themes and growing popularity. As slick as the XR might be, it's still WAR in the marketplace. If it had 100+hp to the tire and a wet weight of under 500 lbs. it would be CERTAIN to compete, even if a bit pricey. But if it's spendy and barely hits into the 12 second bracket in the 1/4 mile (slower than grandma without her oxygen bottle), sales will be lackluster. Typical cruiser bikes get by with low hp to thrill their inexperienced riders, as long as they have some low-end torque to "squirt" through traffic, giving the impression of zippy acceleration. But the tide shifts with bikes like the XR. Most non-Harley owners expect bikes in that theme to run in the tens, right off the showroom floor - to them, it will have laughable performance. And just how many of us who HAVE and appreciate Harleys, will sell it right away just to get the XR?

Don't forget that in Europe, the XR will have to compete against the S2R and S4R Ducks - along with their new "retro" models. Piaggio is serious as a heart attack about getting into "motorcycles" and the new Moto Guzzis (financed by world leader, Piaggio) will also be circling the XR waters. The Jap naked bikes are not in the same theme, but still grab at sales with blistering performance at the same or lower cost. BMW is also on the march to vastly expand it's market and has upped it's hp to a competitive level. Triumph continues forward with it's own two and three cylinder themes and growing popularity. As slick as the XR might be, it's still WAR in the marketplace. If it had 100+hp to the tire and a wet weight of under 500 lbs. it would be CERTAIN to compete, even if a bit pricey. But if it's spendy and barely hits into the 12 second bracket in the 1/4 mile (slower than grandma without her oxygen bottle), sales will be lackluster.
100% agree with you there. There will be faster bikes for a cheaper price than the XR1200. But it will have the exclusive HD name on the side. That will lure some people into buying it. I myself want a Hot Rod Harley and see plenty of potential there to make it right.

I certianly don't think that the XR 1200 could be duplicated for the same price as speculated, using an XL883. I am personaly certain it cannot. But as witnessed here, unfortunatly, a lot of folks are going to THINK that.

One thing that bothers me. It seems few folks have noticed that the HP numbers given at Intermot were BRAKE HP numbers. IE at the rear wheel. It kind of moves the argument upscale. I suppose most are used to HD using shaft numbers.

Brake HP is engine HP and not the power at the wheel.
Brake horsepower (bhp)
Brake horsepower (bhp) is the measure of an engine's horsepower without the loss in power caused by the gearbox, generator, differential, water pump and other auxiliaries. Thus the prefix "brake" refers to where the power is measured: at the engine's output shaft, as on an engine dynamometer. The actual horsepower delivered to the driving wheels is less. An engine would have to be retested to obtain a rating in another system. The term "brake" refers to the use of a band brake to measure torque during the test (which is multiplied by the engine

If the XR1200 has 90 HP brake HP then it will probably have 75-80 horsepower on a chassis dyno or to the back wheel.

The point I am trying to make on this new version of the XR is that it does not follow the original XR concept.

The original XR concept was to take the race motor and mix that in with a standard sportster. The classic american hot rod model. I agree that the rest of the bike was just a regular sportster but, it's the concept. HOT ROD

The new XR is more of a re-make of the old XLCR Cafe Racer. Now, if they called this bike the CR-1200 Cafe Racer you would get no arguement out of me. I would totally agree. It follows exactly in the concept of the old cafe racer but, with all the latest improvements.

The XR needs a tricked out or unique motor to make it follow the original Hot Rod concept. That along with the other improvements would make it a great bike.
We know the factory can do tricked out motors when they want. This is just one of those situations where the factory needs to step up. Besides, I see everyone comparing this bike to all the Guzzis and such. So, a tricked up motor wouldn't be such a bad thing to run against these bikes.

I still think, that you could duplicate a XR-1200 if you purchased a used 04 up 883 and invested about 5K-6K you would end up with a very nice XR style bike. It may or may not be as swoopie or stylish as the new XR, but it would have the suspension and engine to give it a go around. I don't claim to be a master custom bike builder but, I have put enough bikes together to know this is a good possibility if you do all the work yourself and shop for the deals. (and pick up the 883 for about 4K)

So anyway, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

Jesse

The XR1200's motor makes more power than the XR1000 did. I wouldnt call it a race motor by the rest of the competition out there but by HD standards its as good as it gets . Its has a lot of the Buell technology in it,. Hell you can basically call it a buell motor. I do not know the details on it yet but Im certain its not far from the XB motors.
You can build an 883 to compete with the XR 1200 but it wont be as well rounded as the XR and still wont come with a factory warranty. And in the end it will cost more.;)

The XR1200's motor makes more power than the XR1000 did. I wouldnt call it a race motor by the rest of the competition out there but by HD standards its as good as it gets . Its has a lot of the Buell technology in it,. Hell you can basically call it a buell motor. I do not know the details on it yet but Im certain its not far from the XB motors.
You can build an 883 to compete with the XR 1200 but it wont be as well rounded as the XR and still wont come with a factory warranty. And in the end it will cost more.;)

:clap :clap :clap

Let me just add I don't give two craps whether Harley calls it an XR, XR1200, XLCR1200, XLH1200CR, XLCH1200R or just an F'n Sporty... Call if the Buellyssess II for all I care, just F'n BUILD IT!!!!!!!

Kev

:clap :clap :clap

Let me just add I don't give two craps whether Harley calls it an XR, XR1200, XLCR1200, XLH1200CR, XLCH1200R or just an F'n Sporty... Call if the Buellyssess II for all I care, just F'n BUILD IT!!!!!!!

Kev
I second that motion!:D

Fairly ugly

My mistake, except that most BHP references in motorcycling use a Prony brake arrangment driven by a drum off the rear wheel, so I still suspect these may be rear wheel numbers. That and HD has always referred to their numbers as SHP, so BHP is a different usage for them.

On another point, this bike DOES have unique heads (XB downdraft, as opposed to the XL sidedraft), unique cases, and a unique intake system. The 7000 rpm factory redline would seem to bespeak unique internals as well, perhaps using the lighter crank assy of the Buell engines. THis seems to qualify it for at least the same status in some eyes as the earlier XR 1000. It would be interesting to see if the oil pump drive is the same as the XL, or is driven off the Number 2 cam as is the XB engines

Styling is subjective, but it seems most of this was engineering driven, as opposed to a straight styling exercise as per the Customs. IE the tank was dictated by the use of the aircraft filler, while providing useful capacity while still intigrating the variable geometry down draft air box. The tail was dictated by the need for 2 up capacity, while still deriving some influence from its XR genisis. The engine incorporates many changes from the Buell XBs, and drops the superflues timing cone.

THis is a complete effort, while niether a pure styling exercise as was the XLCR, or a mismatched engineering/marketing effort as was the XR-1000.

My mistake, except that most BHP references in motorcycling use a Prony brake arrangment driven by a drum off the rear wheel, so I still suspect these may be rear wheel numbers. That and HD has always referred to their numbers as SHP, so BHP is a different usage for them.

On another point, this bike DOES have unique heads (XB downdraft, as opposed to the XL sidedraft), unique cases, and a unique intake system. The 7000 rpm factory redline would seem to bespeak unique internals as well, perhaps using the lighter crank assy of the Buell engines. THis seems to qualify it for at least the same status in some eyes as the earlier XR 1000. It would be interesting to see if the oil pump drive is the same as the XL, or is driven off the Number 2 cam as is the XB engines

Styling is subjective, but it seems most of this was engineering driven, as opposed to a straight styling exercise as per the Customs. IE the tank was dictated by the use of the aircraft filler, while providing useful capacity while still intigrating the variable geometry down draft air box. The tail was dictated by the need for 2 up capacity, while still deriving some influence from its XR genisis. The engine incorporates many changes from the Buell XBs, and drops the superflues timing cone.

THis is a complete effort, while niether a pure styling exercise as was the XLCR, or a mismatched engineering/marketing effort as was the XR-1000.
I hear you buddy. I just didnt want to gives others the wrong information.
I know My Firebolt was rated at 92 bhp and after a filter, exhaust, and another ecm it made 79 horsepower at the wheel. This has also been shown on many HD and Buell dynos on the net and in magazines so obviously HD is rating their engines at the crank or flywheel.
As much as I liked the XR1000, it wont compete with its new brother the XR1200. HD really put some thought into the XR1200. I really cannot wait to see some hard numbers such as Track times, HP and top gear roll ons. Im pretty sure that it wont be as fast as the XB1200 buells but faster than the smaller ones (984cc).
Hopefully this motor is pretty much a 103BHP Buell 1200 with maybe some different cam profiles to boost torque while robbing a little HP up top. That would explain the 85-90 claimed HP that we are hearing.
I sure wish someone could tell us when this info will come........

My mistake, except that most BHP references in motorcycling use a Prony brake arrangment driven by a drum off the rear wheel, so I still suspect these may be rear wheel numbers. That and HD has always referred to their numbers as SHP, so BHP is a different usage for them.



MA1 - all the stuff I snipped from your quote was great for the record.

But like SRTM, I have to take issue with your conclusion that "most BHP reference in motorcycling use a Pony brake arrangement driven by a drum off the rear wheel."

Actually IT IS TRUE that Harley tend to NOT publish stock HP numbers (EXCEPT in their SE catalogs where they show comparitive dyno runs between stock and SE kits). And it is also true that WHEN they do that they're talking rear wheel.

HOWEVER, Harley does occassionally publish HP specs in magazines such as The Enthusiast. Most recently I remember seeing figures on the Vrod and on the Rubbermount Sportys when they were introduced. In both cases those numbers proved to be crankshaft as later magazine tests have shown. Same is true for Buell catalog HP ratings, they are crank.

Harley does publish Torque ratings in their catalogs, but again they are crank and not rear wheel, as magazine tests will show.

And I am at a loss to think of one other single manufacturer that publishes rear wheel figures?

Moto Guzzi doesn't
BMW doesn't
Triumph doesn't
Ducati doesn't

and last time I checked, none of the big 4 Jap companies do either, but there may be an exception in the form of one particular model.

Same is true for the entire automotive industry.

WHY?

Simple, because manufacturers want to put their best foot forward in advertising.

and at some point a couple of decades ago one manufacturer must have figured out that if you publish the crank spec it will look higher than the competition. And when others realized that they said, "crap, we better publish crank specs too" and well, for decades it's pretty much been that way.

So I would be SHOCKED (I mean jaw dropping SHOCKED) if those early reports of 85-90 bhp was rear wheel. I'm talking falbbergasted.

But then again, that would be some crow I'd be happy to digest if it meant I could buy an XR1200 with 100+ crank hp. :banana

Yes, that would be getting too much from HD if we were getting 90 HP to the wheel. Hell might freeze over! But then again , they caught me off guard with the the bike altogether.
It wouldnt be hard to get 100 or so BHP. The XB1200 engine is in production.
Im thinking that the engine we are getting will be a slightly detuned version of the XB1200.
Either way Im content for now.:smoke

It wouldnt be hard to get 100 or so BHP. The XB1200 engine is in production.
Im thinking that the engine we are getting will be a slightly detuned version of the XB1200.
Either way Im content for now.:smoke


That would be my guess too....

I think Carrol Shelby was quoted as saying: "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races..." They always want to put up a higher number if possible.

I think Carrol Shelby was quoted as saying: "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races..." They always want to put up a higher number if possible.
On the same note I remember a quote of, "Horsepower only keeps you there; torque gets you there."

Torque gets you moving. Horsepower keeps you moving.
I myself prefer Horsepower. Torque is for pulling things like trailors. Horsepower is for going fast.;)

I sure like it, XL1200. I'm sure I can't afford it. Might as well mod the 04 1200R that I almost have paid off. H-D wanted to take mine on a BT trade for $5500. 18,000 miles and pretty clean, new tires, brakes and well maintained. I would think any idiot would pay that for it, and blow me too! Not to mention the add-ons. I can see some irate H-D ridin Muslim blowing the local stealer right off the map in due time! Beware of U-hauls sitting in the parking lot.
Dave

Horsepower is just fer racers, torque is for trucks and bulldozers. Now whatcha really want is an engine with Balls! Juice! Snot! So if I had a motor with tons of torque and no horsepower what would happen? I get up to speed quickly,I guess. But then I would slow down because no HP? Whaa...??


And 'ol Shelby is still cashing in...that new GT500 has 500HP. Conspicuously absent from the commercial hyperbole is the 2 TON curb weight. Oops. What a fine sports car that must be.

Yes the Hardtop GT500 does weigh right in at 4,000 lbs. Heavy for a mustang. But with a little tuning to the factory ECM and some drag radials these cars are running 11.60-70's. With a pulley change on the blower and a decent exhaust 10's are right around the corner. I love todays technology. Daily drivers that will run 10's.
This is what Im preaching about the XR1200. Technology. Having your cake and eating it too. HD should have a competitor here.:)

Yup,a daily driver $60,000.00 nose heavy turd Mustang that corners like the queen Mary. YUK. How long is an aluminum 331 gonna last making 500 ponies? The naturally aspirated 4.6's crack pistons all the time....wait,back to Sportsters! I'd sure own the XR before I bought into the tired old Shelby hype. The auto makers try, but with an encyclopedia of Federal regulations, it's pretty hard to make a decent car anymore. Imagine a guy restoring a 2007 car 30 years from now. Nahhh...

You need to do some reading. The GT500 according to the experts does handle well. It's not a Jaguar XKR but that car costs another $20,000.

Yup,a daily driver $60,000.00 nose heavy turd Mustang that corners like the queen Mary. YUK. How long is an aluminum 331 gonna last making 500 ponies? The naturally aspirated 4.6's crack pistons all the time....wait,back to Sportsters! I'd sure own the XR before I bought into the tired old Shelby hype. The auto makers try, but with an encyclopedia of Federal regulations, it's pretty hard to make a decent car anymore. Imagine a guy restoring a 2007 car 30 years from now. Nahhh...
I know that we are way off topic now but I own a whipple charged twin screw 03 cobra. It is putting down 590 to the wheels. Its a 4.6L and I must say its holding up well as a dailydriver. Cant beat that with a hammer.
The new GT500 is not my favorite car but by todays standars the $40,000 price tag isnt that bad. It handles damm good even with the live axle in the rear. Just like the XR1200 it has major potential! Thats what I like about late model hotrods. They are held back from the factory because of the government restrctions but once you get them home the fun begins.
Another thing is the late model cars and motorcycles are faster and alot easier to live with on a daily basis.
My 883r turned into a stage 2 ported 1200 was an animal. It pulled from idle to redline. It was not rubbermounted and the motor was not nearly as smooth as my Buell. Now I will be able to buy the XR1200 and it will be as docile as a stock 883 but be as fast as my tricked out sportster. Great times we live in.

Ford's buyin' a lotta ad space in those experts' magazines. OF COURSE THEY LIKE IT. Sorry,it's a 2-ton TURD for $20,000 over msrp. Wait a year. They'll be 25K.

2 Fricking tons! That ain't a Mustang. Just like 570 lbs ain't a Sportster.

Well as long as you have crash test standards all cars are going to get heavier. You cannot deny Horsepower though. We have more than ever to compensate for that extra weight. Call it a turd all you want. Its a !!!!ing fast turd and alot of potential to go faster.
There a Gt500 running 9.90's with a 75 shot of nitrous and bolt ons. 3950 curb weight. I dont care if it weighs 10,000 pounds, thats running. In fact that will beat on most 1liter sportbikes. Enough said!

I have zero interest in this bike at any price, but for those of you who moisten at the thought of it, I hope they price it low enough that you can buy it, but high enough so that it seems like its worth something.

You'll never see one for $40,000. Dealers will price gouge it to hell and back in the limited numbers it will be produced.

Sure,with enough juice, anything will fly. But is that all you guys think about-straight line races for 1320 ft? Last time I checked, lighter equalled better perormance. 4000lbs and 500hp does not go any quicker than 2000lbs and 250hp. Guess which one is more fun to turn? Or stop? They shoulda called that thing a Torino. What a joke. It costs as much as a 'Vette and ain't even in the same league. More is not always better. Ol' Shelby is laughing all the way to the bank while Ford goes broke!!

Ford's buyin' a lotta ad space in those experts' magazines. OF COURSE THEY LIKE IT. Sorry,it's a 2-ton TURD for $20,000 over msrp. Wait a year. They'll be 25K.

2 Fricking tons! That ain't a Mustang. Just like 570 lbs ain't a Sportster.


Hey Kev, I found another Carp to play with..........

Yeah, just under 2 tons at a curb weight of 3,920 but that's pretty good. I had a 1969 Boss 429 and that car was a monster. It too weighed in at almost 2 tons with a curb weight of 3,870 pounds and ya know what, it wasn't enough because the car would get aero light above 130mph. The 65-67 Shelby 427 Cobra weighed in at 2,280 and if you’ve ever been in one you would know they rode like a truck, well, maybe the truck rode better. The car was an animal to drive. So, now we get to the XR1200 with its dry weight of 540 pounds. Yeah, that's up there and no doubt it would be nice to have seen it at around 500 pounds but it isn't nor will it be. The 2007 triumph Scrambler comes in just over 450 dry but it isn't near the bike now is it. The Ducati S4R weighs 390 dry and this is awesome but then again it's not a Harley now is it? My point to all this is simple, if you want true performance you're not likely to be buying a Harley for this task as there are numerous bikes out there with better performance but a good deal more money too. The Shelby mustang is a passenger car and the preliminary stats would indicate it does very well for what it is however, anyone with half a brain would know it is not a race car and to make it such they better get the tools out. If you want the XR1200 to be a race bike, here again, you had better get the tools out or don't buy it because you will never be satisfied with it. Buy a ZX14 or a Busa and then you can live in the fast lane..... In the meantime don’t make these products out to be something they aren’t… Rather, take an objective look at what’s in front of you...

Weight is a KILLER! It doesn't matter if it's an SRT-8 Charger, GT500, or XR1200. Accelerating the mass constantly drains the fuel tank at a rapid rate. Engines have to achieve ever greater hp to keep acceleration on par with lighter vehicles. All of the heavy rigs can be made to handle good - NEVER great. It's a much bigger strain on brakes and tires when they are used in a sporting fashion. Two-ton cars will trash those expensive tires they wear in only one, club track-day.

Kentucky,you'll need better bait than that.

I think 11,500 to 12,500. But I don't care. In my opinion it is ugly as hell and don't lok forward to seeing one on American streets. The engine specs sounds pretty cool though (wonder what it might lose trying to get it EPA approved?. They can keep the rest of it in Europe for all I care.

I think 11,500 to 12,500. But I don't care. In my opinion it is ugly as hell and don't lok forward to seeing one on American streets. The engine specs sounds pretty cool though (wonder what it might lose trying to get it EPA approved?. They can keep the rest of it in Europe for all I care.

I'm under the impression tha current EU regs are as tight or tighter than US EPA, so my GUESS is they'll loose nothing...

K

I don't know for sure about that. Kind of hard to find much straight information on it. Their fuel octane is measured differently that ours, and some of the comparisons (on Cars) I could pull up had the U.S. torque and HP ratings lower on most veh. The comparison is also hard to follow (not to mention converting metric to US) because it looks like they put more emphasis on Co2 than other gases we test. At any rate I think they will have different specs if it gets here and will be more than you said you would pay for it.

I don't know for sure about that. Kind of hard to find much straight information on it. Their fuel octane is measured differently that ours, and some of the comparisons (on Cars) I could pull up had the U.S. torque and HP ratings lower on most veh. The comparison is also hard to follow (not to mention converting metric to US) because it looks like they put more emphasis on Co2 than other gases we test. At any rate I think they will have different specs if it gets here and will be more than you said you would pay for it.

I've been buying and following European Motorcycles for some time now, and I can't recall the last time I found one with different specs for Europe.

I believe Moto Guzzi, Ducati, Triumphs, BMWs, are all "world spec" these days.

Harley does seem to play some games with their "international" models. But so far I've only heard about them choking the Oz models.

Now granted, Buell shows just the SLIGHTEST change in specs between say the US and the UK

US - XB12 - 103 hp @ 6800 rpm / 84 ft. lbs. @ 6000
UK - XB12 - 100 hp @ 6600 rpm / 81 ft. lbs. @ 6000

Seems like much ado about nothing.

No matter, they already sell Buell models with more hp/torque from the same basic motor here, so meeting US standards and those numbers shouldn't be a big deal.

and I still think price is going to be in the right ballpark, but time will tell.

Kev

You may be right, who knows at this point. I did notice that the specs on the motorcycles produced overseas tend to have higher HP and torque ratings there than they do here. The ones produced here are rated higher than when checked on an overseas website.

You may be right, who knows at this point. I did notice that the specs on the motorcycles produced overseas tend to have higher HP and torque ratings there than they do here. The ones produced here are rated higher than when checked on an overseas website.

I haven't cross-checked them all, but I thought that trend didn't bear out on most Euro bikes (Ducati, Guzzi, BMW, Triumph)... could be wrong though, I'm lazy this morning.

All of the XL and XB models meet or exceed EU and EPA standards without the use of catalytic converters or air injection. If you can maintain a AF ratio across the entire range of engine and burn the mixture efficiently you shouldn't have to clean the emissions afterwords with the above mentioned devices. The Japanese XLs have a different cam to reduce noise and some countries have an active intake flap in front of the air filter, presumably to reduce intake noise. Its expensive to have a model for each country so HD has an international model that meets requirements of the most demanding country of the several it goes to. IMHO;)

I'm thinking the XR1200 will MSRP around $10,495

You're saying just about anyone can buy a $6995 base sporty and then spend

$1200 on a 1200 conversion w/buell or better heads
$1000 on wheels
$500 or so on dual 4-piston caliper brakes
$1000+ on body work (tank, rear clip)
$??? what for the custom swing arm?
$??? for downdraft EFI? Ok, we go with the new 07 EFI and just instead go with a reflash plus what???
$300+ for exhaust
$500+ inverted fork assembly

We're looking at $7000 for the base 883 and AT LEAST $5k of parts plus the time to assemble them.

So I say BS to your "Just about everybody on this forum can take a base 883 and a fistfull of catalogs and build them an exact duplicate of the XR1200"

K

Yep I was Thinking the Same Thing Exactly. But the time you Build a 883 up Any 883 you have a Lot into it. He is right about one thing though. Most sporty owners / future sporty owners think exactly like he says. Why buy a XR or 1200R when I can just buy a 883 and throw in a 1200 Kit and have the same bike.

Oh wait, we have had this discussion Before Havent we....
NeverMind...

:banadanc

LV

I naturally voted for the least price. If it's more then $11k I'll be getting a Buell, not from Harley either as they don't seem to want to sell me one. I had my mind set on buying one twice and both times I stood by the Buells for a half an hour b4 someone come over to talk to me about one and the only reason they did is because I was leaving!! Can you imagine that?



In fact, trying to compete against Italian manufacturers is a waste of time, people don't buy Italian bikes for on paper specs or for cheap prices.. Ask Honda just how well their 'VTwin Superbike' sold.. Which on paper put out more power, handled better and was cheaper than a Ducati 996.


Yes the RC51 didn't sell well, but they had to at least make enough to comply with homogulation - Italy knows this all too well, in AMA at least. The RC51, IMO wasn't produced to sell millions to the masses, but actually to compete directly with Ducati using the same displacement advantage that the Italian manufacturer had enjoyed for so long - and they (Honda) did (become competitive). Just to prove a point as it were. Yes, my friend on paper, but, more importantly; on the track, with a championship in it's debut year in WSB racing (2000) and its last year (2002). 2 out of 3 ain't bad. The only reason the 51 ceased development was when the rules changed to allow the I-4's the same displacement as the V-twin's, otherwise I honestly believe that the new for 2007 literbikes from the Big Four would all be Ducati spankin' Vees.


Yes and no..
And again, in all honesty.. Outside of America very few people know or care what flat track is.

Yeah, unless they were road racers, then they were like "Who are those Americans spinning their tires on every corner exit and winning all these races? I wonder where they learned that from?"




But IF you look at Harley's pricing of the Sporster line (or even one big twin vs. another) I think you'll see that they normally at least price any one premium model for less than it would cost you to buy the base model and upgrade it.

You mentioned Sporty's and this is evident in the CVO line as well.

Ive still got my fingers crossed for the XR to be sold in the US but if it isnt this year then im probably going to get a 2007 Multistrada 1100 until they do.

I really want the XR though, even if the specs on paper favor the Ducati. The new 1098 is an absolute beast in the hp department too but i just cant ride that kind of bike for more than an hour.

I cant see the XR being the "top of the line" and already the 1200C, XL50 and 1200N are within $300 of being 10K.

I cant see the XR being the "top of the line" and already the 1200C, XL50 and 1200N are within $300 of being 10K.

Ya know I read this comment too fast last week. I didn't read it is "can't" I read it as CAN and agreed.

I CAN see this selling at about $10-11k... just above the 1200L, C and N.

Some more Sporty Standards to chew on -

R1200R - $13k
Guzzi Griso 1100 - $13k
Guzzi Breva 1100 - $12.5k

and now the Guzzi Bellagio (940cc) - guesstimate - $10k and in the Euro press it's target marketing is toward the Sporty.

They are comitted in Europe, so they'll just have to run it up the flag pole here and see who salutes.

It should be priced around the 10K mark, but since Harley tends to overprice most of thier bikes... it will have a higher msrp.

Does anyone have a guess (or an educated one at that) on how much it cost HD to build a sportster in general?

My local HD sells the Nightster for more than 10 so I guess the XRr will be closer to $11000 here in my hood.

I would like to see it under 10, but will be priced 10300ish. If it comes. Which it should.

I think all 1200 should get this motor. I have came to the realization that HD "sport" bike is the Rod and that the sporty is the "begginer"(pukeing right now) in there eyes. Leave the 883 for the "begginer" and give us a buelled engine 1200. Who knows the liquid cooled buell could be all that is available for buells in a few years and then they have that beautiful engine to use as described above.

I think all 1200 should get this motor. I have came to the realization that HD "sport" bike is the Rod and that the sporty is the "begginer"(pukeing right now) in there eyes. Leave the 883 for the "begginer" and give us a buelled engine 1200. Who knows the liquid cooled buell could be all that is available for buells in a few years and then they have that beautiful engine to use as described above.

I think the potential problem of the Buell mill is the size/shape of the air intake and the exhaust.

But I sorta agree.

Actually, in my mind, this is how they should proceed.

the show ponies - the L, N and C models should continue as is, current motors/chassis etc.

the R models should be deleted and REPLACED with the XR models.

Put the air-cooled Buell mills in the XRs - so you'd have 900cc and 1200cc versions, with real suspensions and brakes. And, if at all possible, change the frame for lighter weight. Get them just sub 500 lbs. and you're there. They won't be SPORTBIKES, but they'd be the Sportiest Sportys in decades!!!

Kev

Actually, in my mind, this is how they should proceed.

the show ponies - the L, N and C models should continue as is, current motors/chassis etc.

the R models should be deleted and REPLACED with the XR models.

Put the air-cooled Buell mills in the XRs - so you'd have 900cc and 1200cc versions, with real suspensions and brakes. And, if at all possible, change the frame for lighter weight. Get them just sub 500 lbs. and you're there. They won't be SPORTBIKES, but they'd be the Sportiest Sportys in decades!!!

Kev

Now I don't always agree with ya on everything Kev but this time I reckon ya nailed it :)

Sub 500 lbs. and more hp with better chassis. H-D will need $11,000 to justify such a leap in equipment above "regular" Sportsters. H-D probably can sell the XR1200 as prototyped for under $10,000, but it would screw up the pricing of the Sportster line having any current Sportsters priced nearly as much or more, with fewer features. And for the most part, Sportster owners are way, way, way too "cheap" to come up with $11,000 for a motorcycle. Look at all the whining on the forum over the cost of a 1200R opposed to an 883! H-D is NOT going to do a third albatross that sells a few hundred copies then languishes in the dealership back rooms. Nope, just too many "Sportster" buyers that want a "budget" bike with genuine H-D labels. It's so much easier to make a successful performance statement in the Buell line. If H-D thought it was worthwhile, the XR1200 WOULD be on the market since it IS 100% designed and protyped. They didn't and it isn't.

Sub 500 lbs. and more hp with better chassis. H-D will need $11,000 to justify such a leap in equipment above "regular" Sportsters. H-D probably can sell the XR1200 as prototyped for under $10,000, but it would screw up the pricing of the Sportster line having any current Sportsters priced nearly as much or more, with fewer features. And for the most part, Sportster owners are way, way, way too "cheap" to come up with $11,000 for a motorcycle. Look at all the whining on the forum over the cost of a 1200R opposed to an 883! H-D is NOT going to do a third albatross that sells a few hundred copies then languishes in the dealership back rooms. Nope, just too many "Sportster" buyers that want a "budget" bike with genuine H-D labels. It's so much easier to make a successful performance statement in the Buell line. If H-D thought it was worthwhile, the XR1200 WOULD be on the market since it IS 100% designed and protyped. They didn't and it isn't.


Actually,

They currenty sell XB9s for about 8 and change, and XB12s for about 10 and change.

So there is no reason to think they couldn't have an XR9 and XR12 for about the same costs, which wouldn't screw up anything price wise.

They'd still have XL883, XL883L and XL883C models as the budget leaders.

They'd still have XL12 models (C, L and N) for 10 and change.

And hell, with a little more performance, plus a better suspension etc, they'd justify a more expensive short stroke XR9 (at the same price of the current 1200R, and with performance to probably better it), and a more expensive XR12.

As for why it's not for sale right now, I'm told by factory workers that they'd had some prolbems with the brakes, something discovered in testing. More importantly, they're feeling out the market with the new EFI and the 1200Ns no need to rush the XR into production yet.

No I'm remain cautiously optimistic.

Kev

Actually,

They currenty sell XB9s for about 8 and change, and XB12s for about 10 and change.

So there is no reason to think they couldn't have an XR9 and XR12 for about the same costs, which wouldn't screw up anything price wise.

They'd still have XL883, XL883L and XL883C models as the budget leaders.

They'd still have XL12 models (C, L and N) for 10 and change.

And hell, with a little more performance, plus a better suspension etc, they'd justify a more expensive short stroke XR9 (at the same price of the current 1200R, and with performance to probably better it), and a more expensive XR12.

As for why it's not for sale right now, I'm told by factory workers that they'd had some prolbems with the brakes, something discovered in testing. More importantly, they're feeling out the market with the new EFI and the 1200Ns no need to rush the XR into production yet.

No I'm remain cautiously optimistic.

Kev

They can't have a Sportster XR1200 at H-D dealerhips with a special swingarm, better suspension, downdraft EFI, more hp, better wheels, etc., sitting next to an "archaic by design" 1200N that sells for even more money. While H-D CAN justify more money ($11,000+) for the XR1200 performance upgrades, I remain steadfast that the bulk of the Sportster consumer base is budget-based, looking for the cheapest possible machines with the H-D labels. Ducati on the other hand, sells by pure lust. People with lust will pay more for that unique status. And the big-twins largely sell on pure lust, with very high profit margins to match.
The Buell 1125R just filled in the XR1200 slot, and with another 50 hp for some real excitement.

The biggest thing to remember is that the average age of a Harley own is now close to 50. I am 38 and most of my friends have no interest in owning a Sportster. A Road King maybe. The 20 something kids here at work all buy 600 sport bikes. They never took my bike serious until one day at lunch I spanked them on the tight back roads. It was more lack of experience on their part. These kids don't care if it has forward controls and chrome cases, they want a fast bike or what seems to be a fast bike.

A local Suzuki dealer told me he can't sell standard motorcycles. People want a Harley replica (older riders) or a V4 sport bike (younger riders). Anything else in between is a hard sell.

The MOCO has to bring different younger buyers into the show rooms or they will be like Indian. No one will buy the big Harleys and Buells will have the Harley badge.

I don't know if the XR-1200 is the right direction but it's a road they need to head down. They need to provide a place between the sport bike and a Softtail. I don't think the V-Rod is cutting it.

They can't have a Sportster XR1200 at H-D dealerhips with a special swingarm, better suspension, downdraft EFI, more hp, better wheels, etc., sitting next to an "archaic by design" 1200N that sells for even more money. While H-D CAN justify more money ($11,000+) for the XR1200 performance upgrades

Again, I don't think you NEED to sell it for "more than a 1200N" but I betcha they COULD SELL IT FOR MORE THAN A 1200R ... and it would be more attractive to buyers of 1200Rs as such.

The biggest thing to remember is that the average age of a Harley own is now close to 50. I am 38 and most of my friends have no interest in owning a Sportster. A Road King maybe. The 20 something kids here at work all buy 600 sport bikes.


But remember, there are plenty of younger (20s and 30 y/o) Sportster riders. Not all those "kids" want 600cc sport bikes (though a number of em obviously do).


The MOCO has to bring different younger buyers into the show rooms or they will be like Indian. No one will buy the big Harleys and Buells will have the Harley badge.

I don't know if the XR-1200 is the right direction but it's a road they need to head down. They need to provide a place between the sport bike and a Softtail. I don't think the V-Rod is cutting it.

I do agree it would be good for Harley to bring MORE younger and different style buyers into the showroom, though I don't see them being in jeapardy in any way.

I do also agree that they need something more between a sport bike and a Softail!!!!

I don't mean to ring the gloom and doom bell. I was at the York plant back in the early 90's (when everything was built there) and they had hoped to have total production at 100,000 units by the end of the year. Now they have two factories and produce 100,000 Sportsters alone. It's just I don't see in 10-15 years 100k Sportster buyers a year. Or I should say current Sportster models. We have dealers now selling off leftovers at discount. Only 5-6 years ago you could only dream of such a thing.

I don't mean to ring the gloom and doom bell. I was at the York plant back in the early 90's (when everything was built there) and they had hoped to have total production at 100,000 units by the end of the year. Now they have two factories and produce 100,000 Sportsters alone. It's just I don't see in 10-15 years 100k Sportster buyers a year. Or I should say current Sportster models. We have dealers now selling off leftovers at discount. Only 5-6 years ago you could only dream of such a thing.

I don't think the issue of leftovers and discounts has ANYTHING to do with the bike itself, it's a case of production meeting and finally exceeding demand.

TOTAL production is above 300k.

I too remember Harley talking about how it was trying to raise production CAREFULLY past the 100k/year number so as not to sacrifice quality (but somewhere, unsaid, they were also thinking of staying off the time when supply would meet or exceed demand).

Anyway, that's all the more reason to create new product and go after an expanded customer base.

K

dont judge the xr1200 till you've ridden it?

closest thing to a harley badged buell!!

uk bikes are £8150:banana :banana

already ordered mine:D :D :D :D

Glad to hear they are starting to take orders. I cant wait till they hit the US so i can finish my collection.

Hopefully they will be here before i cave in to the temptation of a HyperMotard. :tour

The XR1200 is being released in the UK at $15,578. Given that the XL1200R is $14,235 in the UK, and $8,895 in the US, I figure the XR1200 will be $9,734 in the US.

The XR1200 is being released in the UK at $15,578. Given that the XL1200R is $14,235 in the UK, and $8,895 in the US, I figure the XR1200 will be $9,734 in the US.

If these are the prices H-D has authorized, then that's the way it goes. But, it sure seems odd to me that a bike with many more specialized parts that are not used on other Sportsters and reportedly putting out an additional 20+ hp, will sell for hundreds less than a 1200C or a Nightster. It's almost like selling a 300 hp Mustang GT for less than the standard, Mustang V-6.

However, based on some 70-75% of Sportster buyers preferring chrome over function, H-D may be in the unusual position of having to price the performance packaged XR1200 far lower than the chrome package, to make the sales. We'll know pretty soon.

If these are the prices H-D has authorized, then that's the way it goes. But, it sure seems odd to me that a bike with many more specialized parts that are not used on other Sportsters and reportedly putting out an additional 20+ hp, will sell for hundreds less than a 1200C or a Nightster. It's almost like selling a 300 hp Mustang GT for less than the standard, Mustang V-6.

However, based on some 70-75% of Sportster buyers preferring chrome over function, H-D may be in the unusual position of having to price the performance packaged XR1200 far lower than the chrome package, to make the sales. We'll know pretty soon.In the UK, the Nighster is less than the 1200R: £6,695 (= $13,624), and the 1200C is more than the 1200R, but not by as much as in the US: £7,495 (= $15,253). So, the XR1200 at £7,655 (= $15,578) is the most expensive (but not by much).

On the pricing, you have to also keep in mind that $9734 ish (if that prediction turns out to be true) would also put it right between the XB9 and XB12... and this type of more performance oriented sportster would have more potential cross-shopping customers than any sportster before it making that price point more important I think. Not critical, but more of a consideration.

In the UK, the Nighster is less than the 1200R: £6,695 (= $13,624), and the 1200C is more than the 1200R, but not by as much as in the US: £7,495 (= $15,253). So, the XR1200 at £7,655 (= $15,578) is the most expensive (but not by much).

Now that's an interesting detail. It seems to reflect Europe's more performance-based purchasing vs. the U.S. chrome-based purchasing.
I thought it was mighty generous of H-D to "give" me a tach and second disc brake, just to take their "cheapest" 1200 Sportster off their hands.
A European release first makes sense, as their buyers are apparently willing to pay for extra performance, where it's dubious as to whether or not the U.S. market will tolerate it.

Now that's an interesting detail. It seems to reflect Europe's more performance-based purchasing vs. the U.S. chrome-based purchasing.
I thought it was mighty generous of H-D to "give" me a tach and second disc brake, just to take their "cheapest" 1200 Sportster off their hands.
A European release first makes sense, as their buyers are apparently willing to pay for extra performance, where it's dubious as to whether or not the U.S. market will tolerate it.

I've been making that claim from the start.

Along with what I was told were better sales figures for the Vrod in Europe.

Along with what I was told were better sales figures for the Vrod in Europe.I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I don't think they're selling many in the UK. Either that, or the folks that've got them don't ride them, and keep them in their garages! I've seen maybe three Vrods on the road, ever, whereas I might see 5 - 10 Sportsters or BTs most days, and two or three dozen isn't unusual.

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I don't think they're selling many in the UK. Either that, or the folks that've got them don't ride them, and keep them in their garages! I've seen maybe three Vrods on the road, ever, whereas I might see 5 - 10 Sportsters or BTs most days, and two or three dozen isn't unusual.


Yeah, I know you've said that before, but that data came from an industry rag and a Harley sales guy, so I feel pretty confident about it.

Also, if EU buyers are anything like American Harley buyers, the vast majority of em buy em and park em... it's a small percentage who actually RIDE EM... :frownthre

13600 Euro is about 19.983,51 us dollar thats the price for the xr1200 here in Holland they ask:frownone

lots of money but i have no choise so ....i ordered one.


And i,m gonna drive with it for funbike so i think about 7500 km a year .

gr xr1200

I Voted Between 11k-12k, That's A Fair Price In Comparison To The Rest Of The Market, For A Bike With Similar Ammenities And Displacement. But We All Know H-d It Will Most Likely Start Around 13-14k. They Will Be In High Demand When They Come Out And Will Be Hard To Find, So That All Plays Into High Prices.

Got a letter from hd today saying delivery will be june/july and customers who have one on order will receive a signed Scott Parker no. board for being so patient:D

I think Buell, as a product line, is a bust for the MoCo.

Then why did H-D invest in it in the first place? Even if the bikes themselves don't fly off the sales floor, the trickle-down effect of Buell R&D to the XL line makes Sportsters more competitive in their market segments too.

Make an XR883 with the XB9 motor, speedo only, single disk and non adjustabale suspension.

Very good first point...I'd love for my 883 to perform at an XB9 level without having to step up to a full 1200 conversion. But I'd want a tach, dual discs, and adjustable suspension.

Get rid of the Buell line entirely and make the price $500 more vs the regular 883 and 1200R. More money for the MoCo, more choices for us!


Wrong! Buells are ALREADY a choice among those who value buying American but are not looking real hard at cruisers. If you aren't in the market for a H-D or Victory cruiser, then the only really viable US option is Buell. I like motorcycles. Different kinds of motorcycles. I got an 883R because it was a bike I really liked at a good price point. But even if I had stepped up to a 1200, it would have put me at a price point where I most likely would have just spent the extra dollars and bought a Ulysses instead. Or a nice 2005 Honda VFR800 Interceptor that I knew a local dealership had discounted over $2K. Besides, Buell profits still end up in the hands of the MoCo, so why not keep making them?

I agree.

I suspect that Buell could benefit from some peripheral supportive marketing of tee shirts, hats and cocktail stirrers with the Buell logo. I think Buell is a cutting edge bike with it's engineering.

I think that they made a strategy to keep people from importing the bikes in to Europe for a while.... they are miking the Euro/Pound right now and will get to the US sales soon. I am waiting for the bike to be our in numbers a probably will buy one if and when the prices go down or get me a used/imported version a the end/next year.

I am still waiting for XL1200N right now, so I will have something to ride till then!
It's hard for me get anything above 8000Km a year on a bike since my everyday car only get 20K Km a year all together, so in a second bike I will get 2/3K Km if I really try so I hope that this version will be something I can hand down to my kids... if I ever have any :)

I'd say 20,000 Km per year on the car sounds like a lot (about 12½ thousand miles, right?). How about riding the bike more and driving the car less? To me it really wouldn't be worth getting a second bike if I was only going to do 2,000 - 3,000 Km on it (1,240 - 1,860 miles in English money).

Folkie, in the USA, on average, most drivers drive anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 miles per year, depending how far their work commute is. I know that alot folks in my rural area of PA, commute to the BIG Cities for work, and they are like 50 miles away, so 100 mile round trip days(or 500 mile work weeks) are commonplace around here. Now you know we are grumbing so much about the fuel prices going up !

I'd say 20,000 Km per year on the car sounds like a lot (about 12½ thousand miles, right?). How about riding the bike more and driving the car less? To me it really wouldn't be worth getting a second bike if I was only going to do 2,000 - 3,000 Km on it (1,240 - 1,860 miles in English money).

Yeah, I know that, but he's in Spain where I guess typical annual mileage would be similar to the UK. 10 thousand would be the norm here; 12½ thousand would be a bit on the high side.

Lots of people over here commute that distance (100 miles) or more, but usually by public transport rather than private car. It does happen, but I wouldn't say it's common. Of course some people (sales reps, for example) cover many many more miles, but they'e the exception rather than the rule.

I'd say 20,000 Km per year on the car sounds like a lot (about 12½ thousand miles, right?). How about riding the bike more and driving the car less? To me it really wouldn't be worth getting a second bike if I was only going to do 2,000 - 3,000 Km on it (1,240 - 1,860 miles in English money).

Yes, I plan to do a bit more driving on the bike :tour And the reason for the many miles on the car is that I did not have a bike in a long time and the fact that these are premium winter miles where I like to hit the slopes and drive out to Switzerland for that! ;)

I plan on getting the XR1200 for the HP and for the stock Cafe Racer look, as I was planing on getting out the US, getting a 90's Sportster 1200 and doing the Cafe Racer conversion, but the time and money (It's hard to even find a shop here in Madrid) would probably make me loose interest in the project.... :geek

Also, I plan to keep the XR longer that the Nightster.... If I loose interest in it's look, I might go for something else in the years to come... but I know that the XR I will keep! :wonderlan

Of course some people (sales reps, for example) cover many many more miles, but they'e the exception rather than the rule.

You hit the nail on the head there my friend! :doh

BTW Jemo, the XR1200 is a Flattracker look, not a Café Racer look. To be in the Café genre, the wheels should be laced, the gas tank long and narrow, the seat long and leather and both fenders should be prominant, the exhaust should also be long and low ending in either a meg or reverse meg, and the handlebars should be clubman or clip-ons....thats what Café purists refer to as a Café Racer, although most XL converts are a slight mix of Café and Flattracker parts.

....I plan on getting the XR1200 for the HP and for the stock Cafe Racer look, as I was planing on getting out the US, getting a 90's Sportster 1200 and doing the Cafe Racer conversion, but the time and money (It's hard to even find a shop here in Madrid) would probably make me loose interest in the project.... :geek

Also, I plan to keep the XR longer that the Nightster.... If I loose interest in it's look, I might go for something else in the years to come... but I know that the XR I will keep! :wonderlan

BTW Jemo, the XR1200 is a Flattracker look, not a Café Racer look. To be in the Café genre, the wheels should be laced, the gas tank long and narrow, the seat long and leather and both fenders should be prominant, the exhaust should also be long and low ending in either a meg or reverse meg, and the handlebars should be clubman or clip-ons....thats what Café purists refer to as a Café Racer, although most XL converts are a slight mix of Café and Flattracker parts.

Actually, I'd argue that the flattracker and Café are related enough that the XR1200 is mostly just some clip-ons away from it now.

Yeah, laced wheels are classic, but that's not why most Café Racers had em, they had em, cause that's what was mostly available back then.

The seat and tail-section are fine on the XR1200 for a Café, as is the front fender.

Exhaust, well, yeah, that look could be different, but functionally it's there.

I'd take the XR1200 as a starting point for a Café, cause it's just not a far reach from where it is, to where it would need to be.

I'd take the XR1200 as a starting point for a Café, cause it's just not a far reach from where it is, to where it would need to be.

I would like to see the MoCo offer kits to the XR. Like an XLCR kit or something for $500-$700. That way you get all the parts in one box and bolt on. You could customize from there but at least they would give you a nice starting point.

Kev, the term Café Racer is all about retro...giving the look of the bygone era -which converted bikes to road racer looks, because there weren't sportbikes available. So today, a Café Purist would argue- you can't call it a Café Racer if it doesn't have the whole package. Hell, it would be easier to turn a Nightster into a Café or any of the laced wheel XL's. I still say NO to the XR1200 as starting point for a Café, that would be like saying a Dodge Viper is a good starting point in building a retro muscle car....Ahhh NO!
Actually, I'd argue that the flattracker and Café are related enough that the XR1200 is mostly just some clip-ons away from it now.

Yeah, laced wheels are classic, but that's not why most Café Racers had em, they had em, cause that's what was mostly available back then.

The seat and tail-section are fine on the XR1200 for a Café, as is the front fender.

Exhaust, well, yeah, that look could be different, but functionally it's there.

I'd take the XR1200 as a starting point for a Café, cause it's just not a far reach from where it is, to where it would need to be.

I just found the HD accessory page in the UK.

http://accessories.harley-davidson.com/xr1200/default.aspx

They have it set up as a nice sport tourer. Damn now I really want one.

BTW Jemo, the XR1200 is a Flattracker look, not a Café Racer look. To be in the Café genre, the wheels should be laced, the gas tank long and narrow, the seat long and leather and both fenders should be prominant, the exhaust should also be long and low ending in either a meg or reverse meg, and the handlebars should be clubman or clip-ons....thats what Café purists refer to as a Café Racer, although most XL converts are a slight mix of Café and Flattracker parts.

I guess I would not fall into that category of been a purist! :wonderlan
I was planning or removing some non essentials off the bike... change the handlebars and slight mod tho the seat...

But in all honesty, I thought that Cafe Racer was more or less the concept of making the bike better handling and faster... something that XR is made to be... more sporty. Be able to wager a bet to go from point to point the fastest? Or from point to point before a song changed in the jukebox? I thought the XR cover allot of these grounds... maybe an exhaust change would be the last thing I do... but like I said I am not a purist as far as Racer Cafe would be. I appreciate your comments and your bike and pictures!

BTW, what are these pipes?

http://xlforum.net/photopost/watermark.php?file=22336&size=1

I just found the HD accessory page in the UK.

http://accessories.harley-davidson.com/xr1200/default.aspx

They have it set up as a nice sport tourer. Damn now I really want one.Where did you find that? If you go on the H-D UK website and look at accessories, you've never been able to see any (apart from 'Essentials' kits).

The pipes are Suppertrapp XR 2:2.


Where did you find that? If you go on the H-D UK website and look at accessories, you've never been able to see any (apart from 'Essentials' kits).


Yes go there and hit the "My Dream Harley" link. The bikes are listed to the left.

Kev, the term Café Racer is all about retro...giving the look of the bygone era -which converted bikes to road racer looks, because there weren't sportbikes available. So today, a Café Purist would argue- you can't call it a Café Racer if it doesn't have the whole package. Hell, it would be easier to turn a Nightster into a Café or any of the laced wheel XL's. I still say NO to the XR1200 as starting point for a Café, that would be like saying a Dodge Viper is a good starting point in building a retro muscle car....Ahhh NO!

Argue all you want, but who gives a crap, it's all semantics.

Cafe Racer's weren't about RETRO when the genre was invented. They were about stripping some parts of the bikes (similar to bobbers) in order to improve aerodynamics and weight, then making other modifications that improved handling (some of the same ones like clip-ons could be argued did both).

They were about building ton-up bikes that could be raced from one location to another on tight UK streets.

What are you gonna say next, we can't have a Cafe bike in the US cause we would be riding em on the wrong side of the road. :p

Kev

PS - look at the XR750 and the XLCR, visually they share the same basic lines for the fender, tank and tail section... the XR is 90% of the way there already.

Oh and F@$% spokes!

Yes go there and hit the "My Dream Harley" link. The bikes are listed to the left.Oh yes; never knew that was there.

When You Kev- have an opinion- it's Gods word, but when someone else has something to say, it's- "who gives a crap".
Retro is what a modern bike converted to LOOK Like a Café Racer is all about... I wasn't saying that original Café Racers were retro, I said they were built to look like the Roadracers of their day- since there weren't sportbikes available. And if you look at my point- it's certainly valid, IE- by the time you strip off everything on the XR to make it into a Café Retro racer, what you have is a base model or just an XL1200... Coz you had to ditch the wheels, the swingarm, the gas tank(and probably the seat), the handlebars, the exhaust and then what have you left- an rubbermount XL frame and a mildly warmed over XL1200 motor.... which really won't LOOK right without an exposed air filter etc.
And don't start putting words in my mouth!(What are you gonna say next, we can't have a Cafe bike in the US cause we would be riding em on the wrong side of the road.) As for today, it is about Retro Café...and that just seems to be a look some people desire.
And yeah, look at the XLCR and tell me how many Café Racer fans bought it ?
PS- if you look at alot of the tails of Jap bikes of the same era as the XLCR...you'll also see it was just a common style tail....the only thing that really made the XLCR -Café, was the 1/4 fairing, the long squared gas tank, and low pipes on either side.

*sighs*

Argue all you want, but who gives a crap, it's all semantics.

Cafe Racer's weren't about RETRO when the genre was invented. They were about stripping some parts of the bikes (similar to bobbers) in order to improve aerodynamics and weight, then making other modifications that improved handling (some of the same ones like clip-ons could be argued did both).

They were about building ton-up bikes that could be raced from one location to another on tight UK streets.

What are you gonna say next, we can't have a Cafe bike in the US cause we would be riding em on the wrong side of the road. :p

Kev

PS - look at the XR750 and the XLCR, visually they share the same basic lines for the fender, tank and tail section... the XR is 90% of the way there already.

Oh and F@$% spokes!

I just found the HD accessory page in the UK.

http://accessories.harley-davidson.com/xr1200/default.aspx

They have it set up as a nice sport tourer. Damn now I really want one.

That's really nice. Sport-touring on a Sportster, what a concept.

but when RALPHH has something to say, it's- "crap".

There fix't it for ya. :smoke

and you're still wrong. :p

VISUALLY the XLXR and the XR1200R are actually pretty damn close (exhaust and 1/4 fairing not-with-standing).

If you wanted to make a COOL, MODERN CAFE RACER the XR1200 would be an AWSOME place to start, cause all you'd need are maybe clip ons, maybe differnt controls, and a 1/4 cafe fairing.

THAT'S ALL he (and I) meant. :doh

JEEEZZZZ :rolleyes:

I still totally disagree with ya... There is a definate distinction between Cafe and Streetracker, and wasting an XR1200 to create a Cafe is rather dumb, the tank looks totally too modern to fit the Café genre(heck it doesn't look too correct for a Flattracker either)it would be alot easier (and cheaper) to convert a Nightster into a Café. Btw Kev, you can kiss myhttp://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/butthead.gif

~Ralphhttp://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/mooner.gif

Ralph->http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/barfshower.gif<-Kev

There fix't it for ya. :smoke

and you're still wrong. :p

wasting an XR1200 to create a Cafe is rather dumb, the tank looks totally too modern to fit the Café genre

Have you ever even SEEN AN XLCR????????????????

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/02xlcr.jpg

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/05xlcr.jpg

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/10xlcr.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m97/YOFFI69/xr1200s002.jpg

http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/Harley-Davidson/H-D_XR1200_Proto-028r.jpg

Dude the tank lines, even the flat sections capture totally the same look.

Same with the tail section.

Oh, and look at that, CAST WHEELS, WHAT AN F'N SUPRISE.

IT's 70-80% of the way to an XLCR factory CAFE RACER already!

:p

Yah...and STILL fugly...





:roflblack

Have you ever even SEEN AN XLCR????????????????

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/02xlcr.jpg

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/05xlcr.jpg

http://www.planete-biker.com/images/histoire/10xlcr.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m97/YOFFI69/xr1200s002.jpg

http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/Harley-Davidson/H-D_XR1200_Proto-028r.jpg

Dude the tank lines, even the flat sections capture totally the same look.

Same with the tail section.

Oh, and look at that, CAST WHEELS, WHAT AN F'N SUPRISE.

IT's 70-80% of the way to an XLCR factory CAFE RACER already!

:p

I agree........I wonder if a cafe would do well in todays market......Some people feel it was before its time......I feel it failed because it wasn't competitive performance wise against the Japanese

I agree........I wonder if a cafe would do well in todays market......Some people feel it was before its time......I feel it failed because it wasn't competitive performance wise against the Japanese


Meaning like a Thruxton?

I hear they do reasonably well...

It needs to be cheaper than the Super Glide or Street Bob. If not, it won't sell.

Meaning like a Thruxton?

I hear they do reasonably well...

Yes...but the market is so different now....Hey Kev...whats your view on the latest and possibly newest Naked bikes from Japan....

Yes...but the market is so different now....Hey Kev...whats your view on the latest and possibly newest Naked bikes from Japan....

I don't keep up with them really.

I mean, I liked a bunch a couple of years ago from the Bandit 1200 to the SV650 and the like.

But these days everything seems to have ugly fairings... I dunno.

I thought I'd like the Versys, but I finally saw one in person the other day and it's kinda odd looking.

Honestly, I liked things like the Honda 919 or what was it the Hornet CB599.

I lean much more towards Harleys and Euros.... the Euros if I'm looking for a more refined chassis.

Kev


PS - I kinda liked the Kawi ZRX when it was around and was heartbroken last week when a buddy bought a Vulcan instead of a W650...

I seen a neat KTM the other day......The guy riding it said he owned the dealership but couldnt quote me a price..neat bike though

Yes I've seem THEM, I've riden them and a friend owns one ! But the XLCR did NOT look like a Café Racer either !
The '89-'90 Honda GB500 looked like a Cafe Racer -
http://www.hoc.org.uk/gallery/bikes/GB500_1990.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1340/1445041734_4753b02f6d_o.jpg
Now compare to a Nightser and don't tell me the XR1200 would be easier to make into a Café..
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2146/2112561947_99472fa7d1.jpg?v=0


The XLCR Looked like a Bastard stepchild of an XR750 mother...not a Café Racer... dude you really ought to learn what a Café Racer looks like- and the XLCR wasn't one- just only in name ! What the XLCR really looked like were the converted XR750TT that they used at Daytona... So in a sense, they named the bike wrong, as it was emulating the actual H-D Roadracer of the day, which was derived from the Flattracker with added aerodynamic fairing.

Have you ever even SEEN AN XLCR????????????????

Dude the tank lines, even the flat sections capture totally the same look.

Same with the tail section.

Oh, and look at that, CAST WHEELS, WHAT AN F'N SUPRISE.

IT's 70-80% of the way to an XLCR factory CAFE RACER already!

:p

Yes I did say in the beginning of this that I'd think clip-ons would be more authentic for a cafe - but that doesn't stop the fact that people referred to the XLCR (CR as in Cafe Racer) as a factory CAFE RACER for DECADES.

And the XR1200 shares a shyte-load of styling features with the XLCR

THEREFORE it's a small step from XR1200 to XLCR which is ONE EXAMPLE OF A CAFE RACER YOU MYOPIC GARGANTUAN TOAD :p :p :p

No shyte it doesn't in and of itself define the genre, but you don't have to look at the genre though the eye of a needle either.

Open your mind a little.

JEEEEZZZ

Other CAFE RACERS

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/DSCF0753.jpg

http://xlforum.net/photopost/data/500/medium/47_3.jpg

Yes I've seem THEM, I've riden them and a friend owns one ! But the XLCR did NOT look like a Café Racer either !

Now compare to a Nightser and don't tell me the XR1200 would be easier to make into a Café..

Here is what a cafe racer really looks like:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh90/jharback/ktmcafe.jpg

Now how can you say that a nightster can look more like this than an XR1200 I'll never know. Their both so far from a modern cafe racer it's unbelievable.

The XR1200 is supposed to bring back the styling and feel of the XLXR and it does that quite well. Your trying to compare apples and oranges to a bannana.

And YOU should take your Blinders off ! If the XR1200 was truly destined for Overseas sales only, why didn't they just style it LIKE a True Cafe Racer- maybe even bring back the XLCR moniker ?! But NO- they named it XR1200 because of it's Flattrack lines- NOT Cafe Racer lines.... coz the Nightster already Was Harley's lame attempt at a Bobber/Cafe Racer.... DUDE- I originally started this debate when that fellow mentioned he wanted to buy an XR1200 and turn it into a Café, when in fact he already had bought a Nightster, which would be a helluva lot closer looking to a True Café racer right off the showroom floor.
Don't pull your over righteous I know everything about bikes crap on me, I've lived it...how long have you been riding ? I got my street license in 1974 and had already been riding and racing dirt bikes for 6 years prior.

Thats a Naked home made Streetfighter....
Here is what a cafe racer really looks like:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh90/jharback/ktmcafe.jpg

Now how can you say that a nightster can look more like this than an XR1200 I'll never know. Their both so far from a modern cafe racer it's unbelievable.

The XR1200 is supposed to bring back the styling and feel of the XLXR and it does that quite well. Your trying to compare apples and oranges to a bannana.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from "Cafe Fairing".....Look at the adds of the day for the Z1-R.....
I guess some people that are not really all that into....or knowledgeable of bikes might think if it has a bikini fairing it must be a cafe..

And YOU should take your Blinders off ! If the XR1200 was truly destined for Overseas sales only, why didn't they just style it LIKE a True Cafe Racer- maybe even bring back the XLCR moniker ?! But NO- they named it XR1200 because of it's Flattrack lines- NOT Cafe Racer lines.... coz the Nightster already Was Harley's lame attempt at a Bobber/Cafe Racer.... DUDE- I originally started this debate when that fellow mentioned he wanted to buy an XR1200 and turn it into a Café, when in fact he already had bought a Nightster, which would be a helluva lot closer looking to a True Café racer right off the showroom floor.
Don't pull your over righteous I know everything about bikes crap on me, I've lived it...how long have you been riding ? I got my street license in 1974 and had already been riding and racing dirt bikes for 6 years prior.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ONE WORD is all I need for you Ralph

"MYOPIC"

If I've got blinders on, you can't even open your eyes wide enough to see.

flat track this, cafe that - good god man they are only freakin' bikes.

I know we love bikes, but why do people have to be so narrow-minded about them.

The XR1200 would make an awesome cafe - it's most of the way their already.

It would make an even better XLCR.

If you can't see that, fine, but you're the one who jumped down someone's throat on this, I just tried to help broaden your narrow spectrum.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from "Cafe Fairing".....Look at the adds of the day for the Z1-R.....
I guess some people that are not really all that into....or knowledgeable of bikes might think if it has a bikini fairing it must be a cafe..

Obviously, and I think you an I probably agree on this, one single element does not define a bike of either the flat track or cafe racer genre.

And, I think we can probably both agree there is likely a decent amount of overlap in the genres.

THAT'S all I've been trying to say, and to point out some of the overlaps one might find in the XR1200.

Yeah, well I get passionate about Flattrackers, and well, I AM the Fiesty one ;)

Sorry Bro, next beers on me :D

Yeah, well I get passionate about Flattrackers, and well, I AM the Fiesty one ;)

Sorry Bro, next beers on me :D

HEY, it's all good my friend - seriously - second round on me (as long as we're not riding right away afterward)...

I should understand your passion with flattrackers - you have every right to feel that way.

I'm a rider NOT a racer - and Cafe styled bikes (for both looks and purpose) are starting to appeal to me more and more... But I ALWAYS loved the XLCR for what it was, and what is was not...

K

Thats a Naked home made Streetfighter....

That bike pictured is Jesse Rooke's KTM Based Cafe Racer.

Obviously, and I think you an I probably agree on this, one single element does not define a bike of either the flat track or cafe racer genre.

And, I think we can probably both agree there is likely a decent amount of overlap in the genres.

THAT'S all I've been trying to say, and to point out some of the overlaps one might find in the XR1200.

Right on the money Kev......and most of those factory cafe's either spent sometime on the Drag strip or some back road with someone who thought he was Eddie Lawson

Well, I am glad this is all sorted out!
Sorry I ever even commented on the CR option. Beer is on me! if you are ever in Spain :)

Have you ever even HEARD of the term "Naked Streetfighter"?

Sighs...This is Café -
http://www.moto-net.com/images/triumph_thruxton_ace_01.jpg

http://www.moto-net.com/images/triumph_thruxton_ace_02.jpg


That bike pictured is Jesse Rooke's KTM Based Cafe Racer.

I love the Thruxton... :)

Have you ever even HEARD of the term "Naked Streetfighter"?

Sighs...This is Café -


The point I was trying to make was that one persons street fighter is another persons cafe racer and vice versa. I don't think that a cafe racer can be as strictly defined, as you are attempting to do.

Most of the new britt bikes are not priced too bad

I like the Thruxton also. Although it's still no Triton. :laugh

I need to play the lottery so I can buy more motorcycles and have time to ride them.

I liked a bunch a couple of years ago from the Bandit 1200 to the SV650 and the like.

But these days everything seems to have ugly fairings... I dunno.

I thought I'd like the Versys, but I finally saw one in person the other day and it's kinda odd looking.

Honestly, I liked things like the Honda 919 or what was it the Hornet CB599.

I lean much more towards Harleys and Euros.... the Euros if I'm looking for a more refined chassis.

Kev

Personally, I don't care if the XR1200 looks like a flat/streettracker or a cafe racer. Despite the fact that it recalls H-D flattrack style, what I like best is that to me, it looks like a modern sport standard. I love the fact that Harley has a distinctive bike which seems to compare favorably to other modern sport standards I like: BMW R1200R, 'Guzzi Brevas, Suzuki SV650, Both of the Hondas you mentioned, Ducati Monsters, etc. Sure there is an argument to be made regarding the fine lines between naked bike, sport standards, yada-yada...but at last Harley makes a competent bike that reasonably be included in that genre. I do hope they offer an option for a more passenger friendly pillion in the future for the XR. I'm not sure why they decided to make the seat pad part of the tail styling rather than just put a more useful, fuller pad under a removeable tail fairing.

Personally, I don't care if the XR1200 looks like a flat/streettracker or a cafe racer. Despite the fact that it recalls H-D flattrack style, what I like best is that to me, it looks like a modern sport standard. I love the fact that Harley has a distinctive bike which seems to compare favorably to other modern sport standards I like: BMW R1200R, 'Guzzi Brevas, Suzuki SV650, Both of the Hondas you mentioned, Ducati Monsters, etc. Sure there is an argument to be made regarding the fine lines between naked bike, sport standards, yada-yada...but at last Harley makes a competent bike that reasonably be included in that genre. I do hope they offer an option for a more passenger friendly pillion in the future for the XR. I'm not sure why they decided to make the seat pad part of the tail styling rather than just put a more useful, fuller pad under a removeable tail fairing.

I agree with you.....The bike I like most in this category and it hasn't brought up is the ZRX....I think it captures the retro is cool the best

Yes the Kawas where great and thay had lot's of success with these bikes, specially in Europe. Mostly in France, Italy, and France where the CR are a common site. Just look a the new Ducati offering, they are going after this market because there is one where people keep buying up old ZXR, TR3 to fill their style.

I would love for HD to hace a XLCR again! But that is just dreaming!

I agree with you.....The bike I like most in this category and it hasn't brought up is the ZRX....I think it captures the retro is cool the best

I was thinking about the ZRX, but since it's not a current model I left it out...

I mentioned it and the W650 somewhere else recently though, in a similar vein.

EDIT - nevermind, I mentioned it in that same post, it was in the PS that Boz didn't quote

I don't keep up with them really.

I mean, I liked a bunch a couple of years ago from the Bandit 1200 to the SV650 and the like.

But these days everything seems to have ugly fairings... I dunno.

I thought I'd like the Versys, but I finally saw one in person the other day and it's kinda odd looking.

Honestly, I liked things like the Honda 919 or what was it the Hornet CB599.

I lean much more towards Harleys and Euros.... the Euros if I'm looking for a more refined chassis.

Kev


PS - I kinda liked the Kawi ZRX when it was around and was heartbroken last week when a buddy bought a Vulcan instead of a W650...

Hey Kev, last night I was watching the Late-Late show with Craig Ferguson, and one of his guests was Sigourney Weaver, it turns out her husband just started riding six month ago, and this is how she described his bike : "It's a Beautiful bike, it's a Kawasaki a few years old, but has the exact same look as the Classic Triumphs...he really loves that bike." Ahem, now what bike do you think she was trying to describe :D


.......I mentioned it and the W650 somewhere else recently though, in a similar vein....

Hey Kev, last night I was watching the Late-Late show with Craig Ferguson, and one of his guests was Sigourney Weaver, it turns out her husband just started riding six month ago, and this is how she described his bike : "It's a Beautiful bike, it's a Kawasaki a few years old, but has the exact same look as the Classic Triumphs...he really loves that bike." Ahem, now what bike do you think she was trying to describe :D


The bike my overly-conservative friend should have bought? ;)


http://cdn-9.psndealer.com/e2/dealersite/images/cyclemax/VP748019_2.jpg

When they first came out I was talking to a guy that had ridden Triumphs for years. He said his biggest complaint was they copied it too well. The rib on the top of the seat rubbed into your leg just like the original.

When they first came out I was talking to a guy that had ridden Triumphs for years. He said his biggest complaint was they copied it too well. The rib on the top of the seat rubbed into your leg just like the original.


If that was the biggest complaint - well, that says it all... ;)

...I kinda like the "Look" of THIS seat on this Nightster-

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2376/2219674114_df32f81aae.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2158/2219674116_4dcddb051a.jpg?v=0

...since we've Totally Hi-Jacked this thread anyway :D
Check this W650 Café out :
http://www.vd-classic.com/img/accessoires/photos/W650.gif
Café Stuff for the W650 here- http://www.vd-classic.com/EN/access.php?acc=650w

The bike my overly-conservative friend should have bought? ;)


http://cdn-9.psndealer.com/e2/dealersite/images/cyclemax/VP748019_2.jpg

BTW, will the R6 41mm front suspension fit the 2000 XL1200S?

Hey Kev, last night I was watching the Late-Late show with Craig Ferguson, and one of his guests was Sigourney Weaver...

I love that show! Craig is my favorite late night host. Beside the fact that I'm a fan of all things Scottish, I seriously think the man has the sharpest comedic wit of any of those yahoos on that late. I'm pretty sure that his monologues are mostly improv'ed aside from maybe a general topic outline.

And I concur with you 100% about Craig. :clap In some ways, his wit reminds me of a young Robin Williams, and it's ironic - both were drug and alcohol adicts in their prime...I just hope Craig stays off the stuff...he's the only comic that makes this old curmudgeon(me) LOL :D
I love that show! Craig is my favorite late night host. Beside the fact that I'm a fan of all things Scottish, I seriously think the man has the sharpest comedic wit of any of those yahoos on that late. I'm pretty sure that his monologues are mostly improv'ed aside from maybe a general topic outline.

HOG magazine says the 2009 models will hit the web site on 22 July

HOG magazine says the 2009 models will hit the web site on 22 July

Now i wont be able to sleep, thanks. (yea, ok, like a college student can afford a brandy new bike anyways!!)

And I concur with you 100% about Craig. :clap In some ways, his wit reminds me of a young Robin Williams, and it's ironic - both were drug and alcohol adicts in their prime...I just hope Craig stays off the stuff...he's the only comic that makes this old curmudgeon(me) LOL :D

I keep thinking one of these days I'll send him an e-mail..."Do we have time for an e-mail?"...and ask him if he goes regimental when he wears his kilt. I used to be in a pipe band so these sorts of things matter to me :p

That reminds me...I was in a motorcycle shop last week and saw an armored jacket made by Shift that was, can you believe it, plaid!?! Well, not truly plaid, more like red with plaid-like pinstriping. I don't need an armored jacket right now but I was sorely tempted. I mean, WTF, it's plaid! (sort of.)

:bagpipe

Brad, you know you WANT it...so just BUY IT ! Be unique, show your Tartan colors, errr...well sorta ;)



That reminds me...I was in a motorcycle shop last week and saw an armored jacket made by Shift that was, can you believe it, plaid!?! Well, not truly plaid, more like red with plaid-like pinstriping. I don't need an armored jacket right now but I was sorely tempted. I mean, WTF, it's plaid! (sort of.)

:bagpipe

Free to a good home.... IE mine!!!

I will give her a nice home, a comfy bed, and call her my Precious..

Brad, you know you WANT it...so just BUY IT ! Be unique, show your Tartan colors, errr...well sorta ;)

I'm actually considering someday building myself a tartan custom bike. Everyone has the candy pearlcoats and the rat-bike thing and the modern art biker build-off multihued jobs. I've never seen a tartan bike. That will be my niche. Indeed, maybe I could build a business by selling Scottish clan bikes..."Get your orders in now for the new 2009 Stewart Softail, Wallace Wideglide and the Macgregor Fat Rob (Roy, that is.)"

For a while I drove an '83 Dodge Mini Ramvan, the shorty full-size, with a stick shift. It had a blue plaid vinyl interior. I loved how dorky that thing was. A full-size van with a stick shift is surprisingly fun to drive.

Yeah, but where can you buy the tartan paint? :wonderlan

Yeah, but where can you buy the tartan paint? :wonderlan

I've wondered that too...maybe I could use laminates made out of kilt remnants? :doh

Brad, they can do wonders with air brushes and/or masking tape ;)

Brad, they can do wonders with air brushes and/or masking tape ;)

Oh yeah...I've even contemplated how I could do it myself. It doesn't take a lot of artsy-fartys skills to lay out crisscrossing lines, and I have a reasonably good eye for patterns...probably why I like tartan in the first place. But trying to get the mile-deep, baby-butt smooth custom finish would be where my DIY skills would fall down.

...just lots of wet sanding and clear coating, and repeat- LOL
I've even custom painted using spray cans and masking tape, that turned out show quality. Just wet sand and clear coat, and be patient- for the end result will be worth it ;)

Oh yeah...I've even contemplated how I could do it myself. It doesn't take a lot of artsy-fartys skills to lay out crisscrossing lines, and I have a reasonably good eye for patterns...probably why I like tartan in the first place. But trying to get the mile-deep, baby-butt smooth custom finish would be where my DIY skills would fall down.

...just lots of wet sanding and clear coating, and repeat- LOL
I've even custom painted using spray cans and masking tape, that turned out show quality. Just wet sand and clear coat, and be patient- for the end result will be worth it ;)

Thanks for the encouragement and tips! Now maybe I can attempt to DIY my current brainchild. Did you happen to see the new Ferrari on the cover of Motor Trend? I did, and I thought, "I need a Sportster semi-cafe racer that color of Rosso Corsa with gunmetal stripes and wheels..." But not my R. It stays black. I'll just have to look for a nice used 1200 Roadster in a few years.

I bet a pint or two of Gin-U-Wine Ferrari paint costs the arm and leg of your firstborn child. Shoot, it's probably a controlled substance for sale only to card-carrying Ferraristas.

The suggested price will be $10,000 - $10,999, but the dealers will mark it up to eleventyfour gazillion dollars. Here in Mexico it will cost several gazillion dollars more, and I will want one desperately but keep Farley who is a good piglet after all, and paid for.

What's the point ? the bike is for European market only....

Wait and see.

...IF they build the XR1200 and price it ANYWHERE near the reasonable point for the market, I.E. $10k ish, I WILL BUY ONE.

IF they build it and try to price it at $13k it WILL flop and I will likely admire it from afar while riding my new Guzzi, Ducati or Buell....

The price will depend on who they gear the demographics to for the XR and who HD is trying to take market share from. It will be priced with those two (among a slew of) variables. If you check the XR in Great Britain it sells for Price Brit LB = 15249USD and the Nightster goes for USD13536 = 6795Brit LB , so if they keep it along those ratios, today you would see the XR for about USD11,200. IF IT WAS SELLING IN THE US.

If you check the XR in Great Britain it sells for 15249 British LB and the Nightster goes for 13536 Brit LBWhere do you get those prices from? The Nightster is £6,795 and the XR1200 is £7,655.

The price will depend on who they gear the demographics to for the XR and who HD is trying to take market share from. It will be priced with those two (among a slew of) variables. If you check the XR in Great Britain it sells for Price Brit LB = 15249USD and the Nightster goes for USD13536 = 6795Brit LB , so if they keep it along those ratios, today you would see the XR for about USD11,200. IF IT WAS SELLING IN THE US.

BERN, BERN, BERN - you quoted me from what 2 years ago...

I'm on the record for still saying it is going to be MARKET priced at about $10.5k, because of subsequent analysis of the relative prices of other Sportsters vs XRs in other markets.

I.E. In the UK, the 1200C sells for an equivalent of about $500 less than the XR. So saying the 1200C is about 10k here - well, you get the picture.

Only thing is, like I said, that quote is nearly 2 years old as I gave up waiting and bought a new Guzzi anyway - for under 10k (more than 2k under MSRP) last October!

Then again, ya never know.

Kev

Only thing is, like I said, that quote is nearly 2 years old as I gave up waiting and bought a new Guzzi anyway - for under 10k (more than 2k under MSRP) last October!

Then again, ya never know.

Kev


How has your reliability and quality control been on your Guz' so far? A local multiline dealer just got itself a Guzzi franchise so I've been eyeballing them more often and find there's a lot of good stuff to look at. The spectre of spotty Italian reliability seems to lurk its ugly head whenever I talk to other riding friends about them, despite the fact that none of them ride Guzzis. It's sort of an ingrained stereotype...just curious if it is true for modern, fully-funded and engineered bikes. Personally, if a bike or even a car moves me to consider purchasing it, reliability is a few notches down on the consideration list, although it did play a part in my Sportster purchase.

The spectre of spotty Italian reliability seems to lurk its ugly head whenever I talk to other riding friends about them, despite the fact that none of them ride Guzzis. It's sort of an ingrained stereotype...just curious if it is true for modern, fully-funded and engineered bikes.Of course some of those stereotypes, like similar ones about Harleys, were formed a looong time ago, and often aren't true at all any more, but people's perceptions take a long time to change.

How has your reliability and quality control been on your Guz' so far? A local multiline dealer just got itself a Guzzi franchise so I've been eyeballing them more often and find there's a lot of good stuff to look at. The spectre of spotty Italian reliability seems to lurk its ugly head whenever I talk to other riding friends about them, despite the fact that none of them ride Guzzis. It's sort of an ingrained stereotype...just curious if it is true for modern, fully-funded and engineered bikes. Personally, if a bike or even a car moves me to consider purchasing it, reliability is a few notches down on the consideration list, although it did play a part in my Sportster purchase.

My 2000 Jackal was built during a time when Guzzi was for sale (just 2 years later Aprilia completed the purchase) and the workers knew it (there are stories of people taking apart their steering head in that time frame to find ungreased bearings and such). The company was in trouble.

It is built a lot like a Sporty - hand built, at a decades old factory, using lots of in house parts and parts from various suppliers. The company was obviously trying to stay afloat and here or there used some cheap parts. Nothing major - really just some cheap chrome on the wheels and some frickin' cheap chromed/plastic turn signals, some stuff like that. They must have gotten a deal on some cheap Siemens relays cause a lot of bikes had failed relays for a while (which is why I bought and carried a spare for the past almost 5 years, but I never needed it - though it did save DRCstangs ass last summer cause it fit his bike too).

The charging system on those Californias doesn't have the highest output either, though it's never bothered me - I DID however convert to LED tail lights to lower current draw (hopefully leaving more for electric gloves) and to help protect the wiring in the cheap tail light.

The important stuff was absolutely top notch - like a frame so stiff that you can mount a side-car without any additional bracing. Like a motor so sturdy (with high stregnth and long life components - incluing Nikasil liners in the jugs) that I've seen a number of 98-01 Calis with 100-200k miles on em already. With Brembo brakes front and rear for excellent stopping power.

I've really only had one break-down, an ignition switch that went bad - and I don't know how much of that was the PO's fault (the first owner sat it in the Florida sun, close to the water, corroding and not riding it for 3 years and 1k miles). So I can't bitch - I honestly think that the bike will just run as long as I ask it too.

My Breva - was built by a renewed company - designed largely under Aprilia's ownership and shortly before a sale of both companies to Piaggio (a giant by comparison - the owner of Vespa) - it's a completely modern bike - very different in a lot of ways from my Jackal. The Jackal is more visceral and Harley-esque in both style and feel. It's more clunky in the gearbox and a little louder, a little less smooth etc. The Breva is a little more like a BMW in terms of butter smooth clicking hydraulic clutch 6-speed gearbox, slick gauge assembly with computer display (to access everything from ambient temperatures, trip computer, even diagnostic trouble codes or maintenance reminder resetting), slick single-sided swingarm/monoshock rear with preload/damping/rebound adbjustments.

I've only put a little over 3k miles on her in the 8 months of so I've had her, but she's been great. It's still a visceral bike with a pleasing motor, just much more SPORTing than the Jackal. It's kinda like the best of both worlds, almost like having a Sporty or Dyna and an XBXT or something like that.

If you want to hear more from Guzzi enthusiasts, try

www.wildguzzi.com - there's a discussion forum there with lots of old time Guzzi owners.

Bottom line - Folkie put it better in less words - it's pretty much an ancient stereotype.

Kev

The important stuff was absolutely top notch - like a frame so stiff that you can mount a side-car without any additional bracing. Like a motor so sturdy (with high stregnth and long life components - incluing Nikasil liners in the jugs) that I've seen a number of 98-01 Calis with 100-200k miles on em already. With Brembo brakes front and rear for excellent stopping power.

The dealer had a black and white California that I stared at a long time. It is a bike I could feel really cool on, although I'd adjust the handlebars a bit...they came just a tad too close to the top of my knees for comfort. It is a beautiful bike and since it already has a sort of retro police bike look, I imagine it would be the perfect mount for an equally retro sidehack.

My Breva - was built by a renewed company - designed largely under Aprilia's ownership and shortly before a sale of both companies to Piaggio (a giant by comparison - the owner of Vespa) - it's a completely modern bike - very different in a lot of ways from my Jackal. The Jackal is more visceral and Harley-esque in both style and feel. It's more clunky in the gearbox and a little louder, a little less smooth etc. The Breva is a little more like a BMW in terms of butter smooth clicking hydraulic clutch 6-speed gearbox, slick gauge assembly with computer display (to access everything from ambient temperatures, trip computer, even diagnostic trouble codes or maintenance reminder resetting), slick single-sided swingarm/monoshock rear with preload/damping/rebound adbjustments.

I've only put a little over 3k miles on her in the 8 months of so I've had her, but she's been great. It's still a visceral bike with a pleasing motor, just much more SPORTing than the Jackal. It's kinda like the best of both worlds, almost like having a Sporty or Dyna and an XBXT or something like that.

I looked at an '04 750 Breva they had as a trade-in before they actually took on the Guzzi franchise and I was so impressed with how good that bike felt. It was small, but it fit like a well-crafted tool. I couldn't believe how completely comfortable I felt on such a compact bike...like an Alien facehugger on an unfortunate member of Ripley's crew. :wonderlan It felt similar to a Honda 599 to me, which equally surprised me. This was when I had my Sporty on order from military sales, but hadn't yet received it. Considering that the Breva filled the same kind of niche I was looking in...a good-looking medium displacement sporty standard...and they were only asking either $4999 or $5999, I was tempted to cancel my Sportster order, but I didn't because I suspected that I would really like the Sportster when it arrived, and I have thus far.

I did recommend the Breva to my 5'6" friend with the 28 or 29 inch inseam, the one who had the BMW R1100R and felt it was too much bike for him. He told me that he looked at the Breva and liked it, but was put off by the idea of Italian reliability and potential repair costs and lack of dealer support in the area. Those aspects of ownership hadn't really occured to me. The latter two points might have been valid, but the reliability issue seemed like an outdated stereotype. I do appreciate the support of Harley's wide dealer network when it's needed.

Bottom line - Folkie put it better in less words - it's pretty much an ancient stereotype.

Kev


I figured...thanks for verifying it!

What year Cali?


As for the B750, I damn near bought that instead of my B1100. I really was looking for smaller and lighter in general.

The almost 2 y/o crate-fresh B1100 came up, for about the same price as a new B750 and I couldn't turn it down - better suspension, brakes, gearbox, more power and STILL smaller and lighter (though not by nearly as much) then my Jackal. So I bit.

But I'd love it if Jenn would consider a B750 or the upcoming V7 as a second bike instead of a Ducati Monster. I doubt she will, but I'd like it.

What year Cali?

It was a new one. I think all their Guzzi stock is now new. They just took on the franchise a month or two ago...they had the used Breva before that.


As for the B750, I damn near bought that instead of my B1100. I really was looking for smaller and lighter in general.

The almost 2 y/o crate-fresh B1100 came up, for about the same price as a new B750 and I couldn't turn it down - better suspension, brakes, gearbox, more power and STILL smaller and lighter (though not by nearly as much) then my Jackal. So I bit.

It's hard to pass up those New Old Stock deals. The same dealership with the Breva had an unsold '05 Honda VFR800ABS for $2500 off of sticker that I was looking hard at. And just last night I saw a Chysler dealer selling an '07 Crossfire for $23,000! That's over $12K off MSRP! Nice car for that price. Too bad I can't get a new car right now. :frownone

The dealer had a black and white California that I stared at a long time. It is a bike I could feel really cool on, although I'd adjust the handlebars a bit...they came just a tad too close to the top of my knees for comfort. It is a beautiful bike and since it already has a sort of retro police bike look, I imagine it would be the perfect mount for an equally retro sidehack.

Sounds like the new California Vintage to me. Retro, police-like.

Bozininski, if it is the California Vintage, you need to test ride it or at least sit on it first. The footboards tend to sit up high and push your knees up higher than what you might prefer.

It was a new one. I think all their Guzzi stock is now new. They just took on the franchise a month or two ago...they had the used Breva before that.




It's hard to pass up those New Old Stock deals. The same dealership with the Breva had an unsold '05 Honda VFR800ABS for $2500 off of sticker that I was looking hard at. And just last night I saw a Chysler dealer selling an '07 Crossfire for $23,000! That's over $12K off MSRP! Nice car for that price. Too bad I can't get a new car right now. :frownone


Ah then it's a California Vintage with the skunk seat - kinda pricey (MSRP around $13-14k) - but definitely a looker. It's a solidmount, solidlifter Guzzi California with some nice bits on it. My Jackal with a bunch of chrome and nicey-nice parts. Considering though my 3 y/o, 1k mile Jackal was only $4k vs. it's $8999 sticker, well, you get the picture.

The New Old Stock deals are most certainly the way to go on a lot of brands.

HELL, that's how we basically bought 3 (or arguably all 4) of our 4 last bikes.

The Jackal - sorta - might as well have been new old stock at 1k miles, but at literally less than 50% of MSRP.

The Breva - 06 crate fresh, bought 10/07 for about $2500-3500 off MSRP (higher number if you include accessories)

The 1200L - 07 crate fresh, bought 7/07 RIGHT before the 08s for about $2k off MSRP and accessories.

Nutz, even the 883L was an 05 that we ordered JUST when we got the $1k of free accessories coupon from HOG...

My Scoobie-Doo had been sitting on the lot for a year too now that I think about it.

Damn I've become a cheap bastid!

:doh

Bozininski, if it is the California Vintage, you need to test ride it or at least sit on it first. The footboards tend to sit up high and push your knees up higher than what you might prefer.

Of course, being a Tonit-Framed Cali you could always put pegs on it instead...

Bozininski, if it is the California Vintage, you need to test ride it or at least sit on it first. The footboards tend to sit up high and push your knees up higher than what you might prefer.

It was up on the center stand so I sat on it. Didn't feel too bad, knee-wise. I'm 6'. I actually liked the high footboards as it felt like it would have a very decent lean angle. Just didn't like the low hanging grip position of the buckhorn-like bars. If they were rotated up an inch or two it would have made a big difference. Also it had a heel and toe shifter which I'm unfamiliar with, so that seemed awkward but I'd probably get used to it.

It was up on the center stand so I sat on it. Didn't feel too bad, knee-wise. I'm 6'. I actually liked the high footboards as it felt like it would have a very decent lean angle. Just didn't like the low hanging grip position of the buckhorn-like bars. If they were rotated up an inch or two it would have made a big difference. Also it had a heel and toe shifter which I'm unfamiliar with, so that seemed awkward but I'd probably get used to it.

Bars can be rotated, or switched out for other styles.

Heel-Toe shifter is more a novelty to me, I just ignore the heel part, but it does cock your foot at a slight angle (if it's bigger than the spread between them). Way back in the day I took th heel park off on my RK cause it was 2-piece. I have long considered cutting off the heel park on the Cali (cause it's 1-piece), but am not motivated enough to do it.

Kev

...but since we're speaking of Moto Guzzis, can I just throw out a personal pet peeve of mine?

I have read in probably at least three or more separate motorcycle magazines this year reviews of either BMW R-models or Moto Guzzis in which, without fail, their twin cylinder engines are described as being transverse. They are not! Harleys and just about every other V-twin are transverse. Beemers and Guzzis are longitudinal. This mistake is never made with any other engine layout that I can think of other than twins. The engine orientation in a chassis is determined by the long (rotational) axis of the crankshaft, not the cylinders. They never mistakenly call UJM I-4s longitudinal, nor BMW's old flat brick four transverse. They don't even call an oddball like the Goldwing's boxer-six transverse. Why do they have so much trouble with twins? I suppose one might confuse a transverse single with a longitudinal single, but I can't think of any longitudinally-mounted thumpers.

OK, that's off my chest. Agree or disagree if needed. Otherwise, back to XR1200s...maybe.

...but since we're speaking of Moto Guzzis, can I just throw out a personal pet peeve of mine?

I have read in probably at least three or more separate motorcycle magazines this year reviews of either BMW R-models or Moto Guzzis in which, without fail, their twin cylinder engines are described as being transverse. They are not! Harleys and just about every other V-twin are transverse. Beemers and Guzzis are longitudinal. This mistake is never made with any other engine layout that I can think of other than twins. The engine orientation in a chassis is determined by the long (rotational) axis of the crankshaft, not the cylinders. They never mistakenly call UJM I-4s longitudinal, nor BMW's old flat brick four transverse. They don't even call an oddball like the Goldwing's boxer-six transverse. Why do they have so much trouble with twins? I suppose one might confuse a transverse single with a longitudinal single, but I can't think of any longitudinally-mounted thumpers.

OK, that's off my chest. Agree or disagree if needed. Otherwise, back to XR1200s...maybe.


I call em "wompy-jawed"

The MISTAKE (and it's arguable, but I'd agree that colloquial and industry usage does tend to go with crankshaft alignment when determining whether something is transverse or longitudinal) COMES from the fact that the most prominent and visable feature of the motor (the jugs) are stickout on in the air.

The LONGITUDINAL V or boxer motor will, by definition have TRANSVERSE CYLINDERS.

Therefore many moto-journalists and riders alike have taken to calling boxers and Guzzis transverse, when they are just talking about the jugs.

You actually hear the same error about Harleys, sometimes Ducastis and many other metric V-twins (Jap cloner twins) that have TRANSVERSE CRANKSHAFTS, as people often mistakenly look at the cylinder arrangement and call them LONGITUDINAL

I don't worry about it.

BMWs and Guzzis are all wompy-jawed, that's enough for me.

;)

I call em "wompy-jawed"

The MISTAKE (and it's arguable, but I'd agree that colloquial and industry usage does tend to go with crankshaft alignment when determining whether something is transverse or longitudinal) COMES from the fact that the most prominent and visable feature of the motor (the jugs) are stickout on in the air.

The LONGITUDINAL V or boxer motor will, by definition have TRANSVERSE CYLINDERS.

Therefore many moto-journalists and riders alike have taken to calling boxers and Guzzis transverse, when they are just talking about the jugs.

You actually hear the same error about Harleys, sometimes Ducastis and many other metric V-twins (Jap cloner twins) that have TRANSVERSE CRANKSHAFTS, as people often mistakenly look at the cylinder arrangement and call them LONGITUDINAL

I don't worry about it.

BMWs and Guzzis are all wompy-jawed, that's enough for me.

;)

Yeah, it's not a huge deal, but I came from a long history of reading the automotive press before I ever got into motorcycles and they always seem to mention the engine orientation of a new model, and usually do so correctly. I just think it makes motojournalists sound a tad ignorant when they gloss over a technical feature like that with a common misperception. Kinda like how it bugs me that "dampen","dampener", and "dampening" have been misused for so long in place of the correct "damp", "damper", and "damping" that dictionaries now list those meanings as acceptable along with their real meanings of "to make wet or moist", etc.

Speaking of wompy-jawed bikes, I just saw a very nice '79 Honda CX500 for sale along the road on the way home from work today. Really decent shape with 10,000 miles and change on the odometer. Only asking $1000. I heard that they were quite torquey for their displacement...like a mini-Guzzi I suppose.

I assume you've read Shakespeare right?

Great stuff sometimes, pretty funny stuff often, but it can be very difficult to read at first.

Why? Cause language is a living and breathing entity, that continues to evolve.

Yeah, somethings bug me, like double-negatives, but not dampen or transverse - I mean, transverse and longitudinal aren't INCORRECT in the usages about which you are complaining - they are still GRAMATICALLY correct. You're actually complaining about improper colloquial usage. Personally I know what they are saying (that they are talking about cylinder orientation and not crankshaft), so it doesn't really bother me.

Brad, I owned an '83 CX650c(only year they sold in the USA), but the 650's only came in 3 versions- Custom, Turbo and GL650 tourer- which was a semi standard minus the fairing and bags. I put alot of trouble free miles on that bike. And ya know what, the power and handling was identical to my '07 883R, and the vibes were similar too !
__________________________________________________ __________


Speaking of wompy-jawed bikes, I just saw a very nice '79 Honda CX500 for sale along the road on the way home from work today. Really decent shape with 10,000 miles and change on the odometer. Only asking $1000. I heard that they were quite torquey for their displacement...like a mini-Guzzi I suppose.

I assume you've read Shakespeare right?

Great stuff sometimes, pretty funny stuff often, but it can be very difficult to read at first.

Why? Cause language is a living and breathing entity, that continues to evolve.

Oh yeah, Shakespeare is great stuff, but I'm not sure it's difficult to read because of the language itself. Well, yes, to an extent. But my main problem in reading it is that it is a play! All plays I've ever read are difficult because they are meant to be either performed or to be watched being performed. The joy in Shakespeare comes in the acting or in the spectating.

Plus Shakie had the habit of creating new words or expressions in order to drive home the dramatic impact or humor of a situation, and he used a lot of double entendres and puns and whatnot...all things which are much better appreciated in sharp dialog than in prose. We get a lot in modern language from his works.

Still not quite sure what Shakespeare has to do with technical writing in motojournalism, though.

Yeah, somethings bug me, like double-negatives, but not dampen or transverse - I mean, transverse and longitudinal aren't INCORRECT in the usages about which you are complaining - they are still GRAMATICALLY correct. You're actually complaining about improper colloquial usage. Personally I know what they are saying (that they are talking about cylinder orientation and not crankshaft), so it doesn't really bother me.

I know what they are saying too. Where it bugs me is in the new bike reviews, where the journalist's job is to lay out the technical specs of a new bike and compare and contrast those specs to those of older models of the same bike or to other bikes in its genre. In those kinds of articles, I expect a journalist to go out of his or her way to ensure technical accuracy. I mean, it's not something I lose sleep over, mind you, but it just gets me thinking, "Don't these people have a technical editor?" Now in editorial articles, or in touring articles where a motorcycle's specs are not the focus, I could care less if the writer happens to mention that a Guzzi's V-twin is transverse. You're certainly right that a V or Boxer Twin or any radial engine configuration is wider than it is long, thus easy to confuse, and is not really incorrect geometrically speaking. But since they are engines, and the engine to chassis or to hull or to fuselage orientation is pretty much stardardized as being determined by the crankshaft (or spin axis for turbines), all I would ask is that they get it right in technical articles. Not too hard, I hope.

(Lots of V-twin lawn tractors have a vertical chassis orientation, just to contrast to this discussion.)

I meant language is dynamic - therefore use if enough people use it wrong long enough, it becomes the default correct usage...

Brad, I owned an '83 CX650c(only year they sold in the USA), but the 650's only came in 3 versions- Custom, Turbo and GL650 tourer- which was a semi standard minus the fairing and bags. I put alot of trouble free miles on that bike. And ya know what, the power and handling was identical to my '07 883R, and the vibes were similar too !
__________________________________________________ __________

Ralph, I think '83 must have been sort of a nexus year for motorcycles where anything and everything went. A lot of models were introduced that year which were gone the next, at least in the US market. My Yamaha Virago XV500 was only available in '83. So was the 900 Seca. Not sure how many other models lived a brief life in '83.

I guess I didn't realize the 650 Turbos were based on that wompy-jawed (in Kev-speak ;) ) engine. It sort of hides behind that big, smooth, futuristic-looking fairing. I always liked the looks of those bikes and thought they would make sort of a practical sport-tourer with good power from a small displacement and nice weather protection. I've heard that the Honda turbos were a bit unreliable. I seem to hear better long-term reports coming from the owners of similar Yamaha turbos.

I meant language is dynamic - therefore use if enough people use it wrong long enough, it becomes the default correct usage...

Oh, no doubt. You're right about that. I'm guessing that what we now regard as "rules" in grammar were originally developed from speech patterns which might have differed from culture to culture and changed from generation to generation. Seems like public education has sort of rigidized grammar to some degree.

Plus Shakie had the habit of creating new words or expressions in order to drive home the dramatic impact or humor of a situation,How do we know this? I mean: that he created them? How do we know that such words and expessions that he used weren't the common idiom of the streets at the time?

Ahem...since you all seem to be on the topic. My question is- when did america start changing the spelling and pronounciation of English words ? Seriously, I always wondered that. :D

How do we know this? I mean: that he created them? How do we know that such words and expessions that he used weren't the common idiom of the streets at the time?

That's a pretty good point. Really, we don't know for sure. But we can only assume that since Shakespeare's plays were known to be popular in his own time, and we have a known history of using many of his words and phrases in the years since, it might follow that his works strongly affected public dialog. I mean, we can't know for sure that "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" was originated by Shakes, but since it is in his works and his works have been repeatedly performed for public audiences in the centuries since, it has stuck with us as a result.

I read somewhere that the English word "assassin" was coined by the Bard, but was obviously based on Middle Eastern origins. Who really knows if he created it or if it was already in common use, just not committed to paper?

Ahem...since you all seem to be on the topic. My question is- when did america start changing the spelling and pronounciation of English words ? Seriously, I always wondered that. :D

I still confuse myself sometimes with the differences between British grammar and American grammar. I specifically recall being taught in elementary school that you double the final L of a word before adding a suffix. Travel-traveller-travelling. But in current American grammar we no longer do this...at least not as a general rule.

And it is odd that we often still use the British spelling of theatre when referring to plays and musicals, but use theater when referring to movies. Like we should distinguish between high society and the unwashed masses.

The silent versus pronounced "H" is awkward too. In American I would write "an herb" so that it sounds right in my head, but if I read "a herb" in British it just seems so wrong. Martha Stewart still pronounces the "h" in herb...but she's haughty-taughty. :laugh

I still prefer to use "draught" instead of "draft" and I prefer "grey" to "gray" but I'm not sure if that's a British-American thing or not.

Ahem...since you all seem to be on the topic. My question is- when did america start changing the spelling and pronounciation of English words ? Seriously, I always wondered that. :DAround about the same time you started chucking tea in the harbour. :)

But I don't recall ever being at Boston Harbor :p

Around about the same time you started chucking tea in the harbour. :)

But I don't recall ever being at Boston Harbor :pWell, not you personally, of course. :p

And it is odd that we often still use the British spelling of theatre when referring to plays and musicals, but use theater when referring to movies. Like we should distinguish between high society and the unwashed masses.



We SHOULDN'T?

I always like to remind myself with whom I am dealing.

I'd like to say I can have equal fun with both, but I must confess moreso with the later.

Kev

We SHOULDN'T?

I always like to remind myself with whom I am dealing.

I'd like to say I can have equal fun with both, but I must confess moreso with the later.

Kev

Oh, I like little nuances in language like that, and frankly I usually make the distinction between theater and theatre myself. But it is sort of a goofy affectation...in American English, theater should be appropriate enough to apply to both situations.

And it is interesting the changes we make in our approach in dealing with different social groups.

Dont worry guys, its when Yanks and Brits have to use sign language to aid communication that we know have a problem.

:frownone

Personally i find it a bit pissy when people pick up on other peoples grammer, we all tend to know what each other are talking about so no big deal for me, i aint the best educated person on the planet but i get by just fine. But every now and then some arogant so and so feels they have to correct me on either my speeellingg or me grammmmr, and even my punctiation'......:wonderlan:wonderlan:D :smoke

Personally i find it a bit pissy when people pick up on other peoples grammer, we all tend to know what each other are talking about so no big deal for me, i aint the best educated person on the planet but i get by just fine. But every now and then some arogant so and so feels they have to correct me on either my speeellingg or me grammmmr, and even my punctiation'......:wonderlan:wonderlan:D :smoke

IT's grammAr - btw... :wonderlan





























:sofa ;) :laugh

I've got feelings ya know:frownone;)

XR1200 at dealers here in Finland sell for $23000 (converted from EUR per todays exchange rate). Nightster 1200 is $21000 so that might be the trend in pricing IF you guys there will ever get to enjoy XR in it's home territory.

Our taxation is quite crazy, but there seems to be the approx. $1500 difference in taxfree pricing between these two bikes. ($13172 versus $14652)

XR1200 at dealers here in Finland sell for $23000 (converted from EUR per todays exchange rate). Nightster 1200 is $21000 so that might be the trend in pricing IF you guys there will ever get to enjoy XR in it's home territory.

Our taxation is quite crazy, but there seems to be the approx. $1500 difference in taxfree pricing between these two bikes. ($13172 versus $14652)

I think the difference is more like $500 in the UK...

Here in the US - that would put it around $10.5k

Time will tell.

XR1200 at dealers here in Finland sell for $23000 (converted from EUR per todays exchange rate). Nightster 1200 is $21000 so that might be the trend in pricing IF you guys there will ever get to enjoy XR in it's home territory.Doesn't follow. The 1200R was more expensive than the Nightster in the UK (by about $600), but it was cheaper than the Nightster in the US. None of this really translates across the Atlantic.

Well, live and learn for me I guess

I think the difference is more like $500 in the UK...

Here in the US - that would put it around $10.5k

Time will tell.

From reading reports (many complaining of it's weight) of those over-seas who own the bike or have ridden the bike and comparing the XR 1200 to the other 1200cc Sportster prices, I would say that $10,500 would not be out of the question. However, $11,000 or above, in my opinion would be over-priced and over-valued.

Hope that doesn't ruffle any feathers. However, if buying the "brand" is important and not the objective merits of comparative, competitive, performance characteristics then perhaps $11,500 would seem reasonable to some.

I voted what I think it should be to sell well ($9999), but I suspect it will start with a $10,...

Base price of $10,799 - a tad high, but said it would start with a $10... even if I was hoping more for $10.5 ;)


Hondo - what's the decision?

Base price of $10,899 - a tad high, but said it would start with a $10... even if I was hoping more for $10.5 ;)


Hondo - what's the decision?

Great news!

However, I'm kind of in an unexpected financial fix with the news of an unexpected family pregnancy! Family will come first. But if things work out and bills are paid, I'll sell my Triumph and be eager to buy the Pewter Denim. Now, if I can find one to test ride :tour

Great news!

However, I'm kind of in an unexpected financial fix with the news of an unexpected family pregnancy! Family will come first. But if things work out and bills are paid, I'll sell my Triumph and be eager to buy the Pewter Denim. Now, if I can find one to test ride :tour

Ah unexpected CONGRATS!

Honestly, I'm in no position to buy right now - if the bastards had released it a year ago I would have no question asked (since I paid for the Breva with cash).

But no cash available this year, maybe that will change next year.

Anyway, keep us posted!

Kev

Just saw this (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/24/enter-the-rumormill-harley-davidson-quietly-launches-xr1200-in/)on Autoblog.

Ah unexpected CONGRATS! Kev

Thanks, Kev. Actually, it's my single teenage daughter living at home with us. LIke I said....unexpected!

I am in the same boat. Last year I had money that I could have pulled out of investments. So much for that. Then I have a 6 month old infant and day care is a killer.

Their timing was bad for the home market. I just hope it doesn't chage their opinion of selling it here.

Thanks, Kev. Actually, it's my single teenage daughter living at home with us. LIke I said....unexpected!

Ah, gotcha, sounds like it's a good thing she's got a loving Dad... kinda like how my wife arrived in the world when her Dad was 18...