I believe the engineers at HD need to take a trip/ride on some Honda's, Kaws, and Yamaha's. They will find many ideas that are better then HD offer. I like water-cool engines, low maintenance rides, better suspension and so on.

I am not saying that HD should copy Japan but to learn from them and improve on it. Just looking at them you will see that they looked at HD and improved on it. Where they came up short is keeping models in production.

Good luck to HD but really is the 95 incher an improvement or just an EPA band-aid?

As a side note I was a holder of HD stock but I am seriously considering shorting it due to some of your marketing ideas. Go talk to builders, Honda, Yamaha and others.

I believe the engineers at HD need to take a trip/ride on some Honda's, Kaws, and Yamaha's. They will find many ideas that are better then HD offer. I like water-cool engines, low maintenance rides, better suspension and so on.

I am not saying that HD should copy Japan but to learn from them and improve on it. Just looking at them you will see that they looked at HD and improved on it. Where they came up short is keeping models in production.

Good luck to HD but really is the 95 incher an improvement or just an EPA bandaid?

I'm no HD engineer, but I've ridden on Kawi's, etc... No thanks, HD's got it right. Water cooled engines - no thanks. I don't care about the 95 incher. My 1200 keeps me plenty happy. :tour

I'm no HD engineer, but I've ridden on Kawi's, etc... No thanks, HD's got it right. Water cooled engines - no thanks. I don't care about the 95 incher. My 1200 keeps me plenty happy. :tour

Not all of Japan's ideas are good but look at the Goldwing and then the Ultra. But here in the US it is also an EPA issue. My old 74 Yamaha SX 650 had more guts and power then the newer Sporsters. The Sportsters are good rides but HD needs more then one model to carry on. This is a general issue for HD not a single issue with the Sportster.

The day Harley makes a bike like the Japs then I will never own that type of Harley. If you want a Jap bike then get one. If not leave what we have and what we like alone.

I agee with ya XL O.C.D.
I have riden Japanese bikes alot since the 1970's and apart from being fast and reliable they use cheap metals and cast alloys, they rust really fast, they are too light they get thrown around and blown off the road on windy days, they are uncomfortable to ride, they are imposible to work on with normal sized hands, they sound like a reved up sewing machines and their resale is crap, apart from that they are great I guess.

I agee with ya XL O.C.D.
I have riden Japanese bikes alot since the 1970's and apart from being fast and reliable they use cheap metals and cast alloys.......

That is my point, to take the best ideas and improve on them. As you said the are fast and reliable. Let us get that into the HD mindset.

No thanks. Ive owned jap bikes, and nuthin compairs to a good ole Sportster.

Harley already copied the Jap's in the 80s when they bought Japanese robot machine tools.

What you're really talking about is design. Harley already has a modern water cooled engine in the VRod. Guess what, It's not selling that well compared to the old designs.

Harley doesn't copy the Jap's for good reason, the bikes they make now already out sell them. Maybe you're not aware of what sales have been like for the last 15 to 20 years? Each year has record sales world wide.

I like water-cool engines, low maintenance rides, better suspension and so on.


To clear up some things.

Harley's are a dream to work on and maintenance free while the japanese bikes are nightmares. They already own that sections.

Better suspension. They use showa, which is owned by Honda. They use Japanese suspensions already. It's just that showa tends to be crap.

Better suspension. They use showa, which is owned by Honda. They use Japanese suspensions already. It's just that showa tends to be crap.
If there was just one major improvement HD should make it would be to the woeful standard suspension they use.

I don't care where or by who its made, it needs to be brought up to at least acceptable standards.

Out of all the bikes I've owned over my life by far the worst suspension has been fitted to HD's.
In my opinion it is so bad it is really only useful for holding the frame up while the bike sits in the dealerships showroom.

So as far as the title of this thread is concerned, its "Time for HD to copy Japan" and get with the suspension program!

Ok, I will try to make my point just one more time.

Not everything Japan or HD does is better. Both come up with great ideas. If they are executed with poor quality control or with cheap material, or with inadequate maintenance procedure then the improvement can be cancelled out and also negative.

Case in point... I have notice that when Japan went to shaft drives most motorcycles were still chain driven. HD went to belt drive and if you look around you will see that Japan and also BMW now have more belt drives.

You don't want to jump on an idea until you know you have it right. The Sportster suspension in my opinion sucks but all HD had to work with was with the offering from Japan. Humm...this might be a case of teaming up with progressive but in the end it does come down to greed of the MOC.

The V-Rod is a good engine and again in my opinion it is in the wrong motorcycle. That engine should be in a cruiser. Still it is a high maintenance engine and that problem needs to be looked into.

I can not see what is wrong with incorporating improvements into the HD line-up. The key is improvements.

Out of all the bikes I've owned over my life by far the worst suspension has been fitted to HD's.
In my opinion it is so bad it is really only useful for holding the frame up while the bike sits in the dealerships showroom.

I really do think showa is to blame at least partially. The worst suspension I have is not my sportster's, but my Honda civics. I think that Honda suspension has really degraded over the years. I wouldn't be surprised if the suspension is from showa as they are closely tied with it.

I'd like a Harley big really big thumper. The other guys all make some real nice smaller ones. The Buell Blast is very slow and heavy. How about a huge single that had torque, big torque, and wasn't to heavy. I've had alot of big singles, and they are fun. Seems like H.D. could if they wanted but I guess no one would buy one except me. Just dreaming.

I can not see what is wrong with incorporating improvements into the HD line-up. The key is improvements.

Improvements? Nothing is wrong with improvments. I think my problem is with the word "copy". I bought harley because they don't really copy anything. That's not to say they innovate anything revolutionary, but when they decide to make a high-performance cruiser like a v-rod they don't copy either. The japanese companies tend to copy Harley and without any shame.

I would like improvements. I would welcome a better suspension and brakes. Hell, I would even like more performance stock. However, I would never want Harley to copy anything. I did my research and in the end my money voted for Harley. Improvements yes. Copy no.

H-D has a nostoligic history that can't be replaced, and the Japs have what? they've been
trying to copy for over 30 yrs with little success.

This sounds more like a bitch fest than anything else.

..The Sportster suspension in my opinion sucks but all HD had to work with was with the offering from Japan..
The suspension fitted to the S model Sporties was pretty good.

I don't know for sure who it was manafactured by but I assume it was Showa. (correct me if I'm wrong)

It was a big improvement over the regular crap.

just my 2 cents but, Harleys are Harleys there is just something about them that causes you to put up with some little things but you would'nt trade them for any other bike. also if their so bad why are there so many still on the road? how many 10 or 20 year old Hondas do you see on the road?

Ok, I will try to make my point just one more time.

Not everything Japan or HD does is better. Both come up with great ideas. If they are executed with poor quality control or with cheap material, or with inadequate maintenance procedure then the improvement can be cancelled out and also negative.

Case in point... I have notice that when Japan went to shaft drives most motorcycles were still chain driven. HD went to belt drive and if you look around you will see that Japan and also BMW now have more belt drives.

You don't want to jump on an idea until you know you have it right. The Sportster suspension in my opinion sucks but all HD had to work with was with the offering from Japan. Humm...this might be a case of teaming up with progressive but in the end it does come down to greed of the MOC.

The V-Rod is a good engine and again in my opinion it is in the wrong motorcycle. That engine should be in a cruiser. Still it is a high maintenance engine and that problem needs to be looked into.

I can not see what is wrong with incorporating improvements into the HD line-up. The key is improvements.

your losing points not making them. one more question where do you hide your crack pipe.

JAP BIKES ARE BORING !!!!

Thats the Bottom line Dudes !!!:smoke

LEGENDS ARE MEASURED IN YEARS NOT SECONDS!Who wants all that plastic crap?

I think the Jap bikes have been trying to catch up with HD for decades. Don't try to change Harley into some cheap, plastic scooter! If you want a Jap bike just go buy one. Stop trying to ruin a great American Icon!

Again and again we have to visit this tired issue? JFC, if you don't like Harleys then don't buy one. Obviously there are plenty of people who disagree with you and I don't think the MoCo will losse much sleep over you selling their stock. :)

look at the sportster and where it stood in the hierarchy of bad-ass machines, against it's peers, not it's technology, (read ON TOP) and use that as the basis for how they do the next sportster, the technology should follow from that, not from what the japanese or anyone else is doing.

It was lighter, faster, meaner, leaner, cooler than anything out there. that's where I'd start, not with the big four in japan, but ofcourse they have some good ideas too, it's just we can do it with a harley attitude. It is the original Sport(ster) after-all.

I started ridding on Italian 30 years ago, then went Jap mainly Honda through the CX500, great despatch bike crap to work on, CBR1000 Hurricane 180rocket ship, 1st gen CBR900 Fireblade plus more in between, left Jap when I realised that I was loosing so much in depreciation and that I had to get the wife to change the spark plugs . Turned again to Italian 851 Ducati, wrists and backache all the time. left for a year then went for my sporty, still got it, still got a clean licence, still get respect. Now we have 2 in the garage. One day I might get a new one but I doubt it. wont have the charm of old America or its British Ally.
Having restored many bikes in 30 years all I will say is look at these classics and then at Japs and work out how many will still be about in 30 years!!
Ive still got a 1000 V Twin Honda, fast enough for me officer but look at the history, cam chains!!, look at the chrome badly pitted rust, look at the plastic expense thats why its got a black fairing sprayed over one half red the other yellow!!

I might be new here but as they say ' if it aint broke dont fix it' If I want a Harley Im not buying a Jap copy!! nuff said

Harley has tried that. It is called a vrod. like alle things Harlet is designed for a niche maeket.

Again and again we have to visit this tired issue? JFC, if you don't like Harleys then don't buy one. Obviously there are plenty of people who disagree with you and I don't think the MoCo will losse much sleep over you selling their stock. :)


Got to agree with you on this Pquirk:clap but like said above lets not forget our Brit brothers lot of old trumpets and beezers still on the road, leaking oil, tightening bolts but still leaving their distintive sound as they are running down the road:banana

When I started riding in my teens, I had a Suzuki 500cc 2-Stroke street bike, some of my friends rode Kaw 900's, Honda CB750s or Triumphs or Nortons, and about half rode Harleys, Old Panhead and Knucklehead choppers and a few Sportsters. My bike was fast in a race, but when a group of us rode together anywhere I was in the back. The pecking order was clear to all of us - Harleys and British bikes in front, Jap bikes next, and the 2-strokes (smokers) in the back.

That's just how things were, and it's interesting to see NOW that the passage of time has changed very little - people aspire to ride the bikes that hold a place of respect and honor. People are proud to tell stories that they ride the same brand of bikes their fathers and grandfathers rode.

Water cooled engines - no thanks.

Water cooled engines - no thanks.My Sporty and my '71 Beetle agree :) .

Not all of Japan's ideas are good but look at the Goldwing and then the Ultra. But here in the US it is also an EPA issue. My old 74 Yamaha SX 650 had more guts and power then the newer Sporsters. The Sportsters are good rides but HD needs more then one model to carry on. This is a general issue for HD not a single issue with the Sportster.

Pffft! I had one of thoses XS650s and have had both new and old Sportys,there's no comparo the Sporty wins hands down,even the old iron.;)
As for the GW vrs EG well they are different animals,I prefer the EG for a long list of reasons I won't even bother to go into here.
Harley has stuck to the old traditional 45deg aircooled,pushrod,single crankpin motor because that's what makes it a Harley and that's what Harley lovers want.
If you want a Jap bike buy one,the V-Rod is high tech enough and I'd agree it needs a different platform but it will never sooth the soul of a traditional Harley lover and that's why it doesn't sell well.
By the way the new motor is 96" not 95'' and by all accounts a great engine.

People are proud to tell stories that they ride the same brand of bikes their fathers and grandfathers rode.

Good point,My father and grandfather did indeed both ride Harleys.
Dad started riding in the 1920's on a J model if that says anything ;)

these clowns will never get it.

Harley has tried that. It is called a vrod. like alle things Harlet is designed for a niche maeket.

IMO the V-rod isn't a copy. It's a performance cruiser and there are other performance cruisers, but Harley added it's own spin to it instead of copying like so many Japanese companies do. The V-Rod styling is unique with Harley's great fit and finish still there. The engine configuration is unique as well. They could have used an inline four or V4 like others, but they didn't. They used a V-Twin. I don't remember of another manufacturer at the time using a V-twin in a performance cruiser. There are sure a lot of them springing up after the V-Rod though.

You would never mistake it for a yamaha or a suzuki. When you get on the bike you still know it's a Harley.

All good points folks, some very passionate views and some strong opinions.

First off, the Japs have copied and improved on every bike or car they have made since the end of WWII, that is why the British motorcycle industry died and the British car industry followed suit 40 years later. I'm not even going to begin to look at the electronics undustry here ........ because I am sure you are all very familiure with it.

The British motorcycle industry went down the drain because the Japs took the basic design and improved on it by making it less maintenance and less likely to leak oil all over the garage floor and streets ahead in performance at a time when the British manufacturers were in denial about what the majority of the bike buying public wanted. All of this and cheaper along with larger numbers.

The exact same happened to the British car industry, except this time the Japs tried to help us and we used that great industry killer "The Unions" to chase them off until we had so many strikes and lost production that the Europeans bought and sold us for £1. Again we were in denial that the car buying public wanted better interiors, suspension, fuel economy etc etc. At a cheaper price.

Now dont get me wrong, I'm not anti union, I'm anti commie union though, and thats what happened in the UK, power to the people was taken far too far.

As for Harley, I think they are retaining their heritage and standing their ground with the Japs and in some cases the Europeans. Yes the suspension and brakes need to come in to the 21st century ...... if there is more power then it is obvious that the handling and braking need to improve, but to be blinkered regarding what the majority want is dangerous in any business and I sometimes think that its only due to the pride and loyalty of not only the American public but the large numbers of enthusiast in Europe that Harley will not suffer the same fate as the UK industries did.

However:

Cheaper production, cheaper parts, vast factories filled 24/7 with robots as well as people, all end up with a cheaper price at the end of the day, and although we all want to deny it, we live in a very disposable society these days and the Japs are leading the way. Ask yourself where your next aftermarket part was manufactured when you get that urge to spend half of the cost of the American made part, then look at your scoot and count up how much of it is still American made.

For every hard-core enthusiast out there, there is 10 more who want something similar for less money, and that is who the Japs are aiming at.

Watch this space folks ............ I can see a bumpy ride ahead........:frownthre

For every hard-core enthusiast out there, there is 10 more who want something similar for less money, and that is who the Japs are aiming at.

I agree with your point, but the 10 in their head are riding a Harley thats why they bought a copy in the first place and the first chance they get they will move onto a Harley. I'm not talking about the people riding Wings they are not riding a Harley copy. If you think back the Japs started off copying the Goldwing but there wasn't enough of the base of riders that aspired to ride a Wing so they all moved from the 4 and 6 cyclinders to big twins and copied Harleys. Harley is the goal for these riders so it would seem that copying the clone would be a bad idea. And as for the rest of the world, more people ride a honda 50, live in a mud brick house, and eat stir fry and rice. But for me I will stick to eating steak, living in a plush home, and riding my Harley.

For every hard-core enthusiast out there, there is 10 more who want something similar for less money, and that is who the Japs are aiming at.

Watch this space folks ............ I can see a bumpy ride ahead........:frownthre

Maybe ,maybe not but the Japs aren't that cheap today by comparison.
It's the Koreans and Chinese that are about to flood the market with cheap bikes and they will likely put a hurt on the japs like the japs did everyone else years ago.;)

Not all of Japan's ideas are good but look at the Goldwing and then the Ultra. But here in the US it is also an EPA issue. My old 74 Yamaha SX 650 had more guts and power then the newer Sporsters. The Sportsters are good rides but HD needs more then one model to carry on. Harley has plenty of rides...883 Sportys to Ultra Classics and customs. If you went to a HD dealer over Christmas and saw the crowds buying, you would realize that Harley is where they want to be. The V-Rod was that extra model that has not lived up to the hype. Bottom line if that Harley stock will go up and down. Although I like the XR, I really doubt if it will sell well. Plus, the MoCo has Buell. My 2 cents.

I think if you like the jap bike ideas, and still want a Harley, go for the V-Rod.

'Lotta truth to that. I recently rented a Night Rod for a few days... it really reminded me of the Kawi's and Honda's I've rode.

Personally, I think you could put any Jap manufactures emblems on a V-Rod and 95% of people wouldn't know the difference. I'm not saying it's a bad bike, it's just not a traditional Harley we are use to. I do feel it is the future of Harley. I look for the EPA to kill off the air cooled V- twin. That will be a sad day.

Err, Harley's are some of the easiest machines to work on, if not the easiest, and i personally like the simplicity of an Air Cooled design.

Not all of Japan's ideas are good but look at the Goldwing and then the Ultra. But here in the US it is also an EPA issue. My old 74 Yamaha SX 650 had more guts and power then the newer Sporsters.

The Gold Wing can be compared to a private jet on wheels where the Ultra isn't even in the same league. The Yamaha SX650 was nice and a great bike to have fun with but it didn't have near the guts the 883 rubbermount has. I had a 1977 XS650 and rode that bike for years. It was a niice bike for sure but it dang sure wasn't a Sporty nor could you have the fun with it you can have with the Sporty. I've got a 1200 Sporty and a 1670 Roadstar. Both are very nice and both have been trouble free. I like the ride of the Roadstar better than the Softail and the Roadstar dang sure has more power. The chrome isn't as cood as the Harley nor are the spoked wheels but it's still a very nice bike all around.

The Yamaha SX650 was nice and a great bike to have fun with but it didn't have near the guts the 883 rubbermount has.

We may disagree on a lot of other things but I'm with ya on this one and I've also owned both of these particular bikes.;)

That's just how things were, and it's interesting to see NOW that the passage of time has changed very little - people aspire to ride the bikes that hold a place of respect and honor. People are proud to tell stories that they ride the same brand of bikes their fathers and grandfathers rode.

Well said. How many times do you see someone post "Here's a pic of my dad on his 1948 Honda?"

http://www.oysterquartz.net/Sportster/Dad-on-Harley.jpg

I agree with the original poster bigdogbark, he's made some very good points and shouldn't be receiving so much flack from you guy's.
I mean, how many of you a riding a STOCK bike? Do you all really think that there is no room for improvements? I don't think so! Nobody wants USD front end, aluminum swing-arm, fifty poundsless weight (like a Bonneville), you all think the stock front springs are good enough, LMAO! Mert Lawwill claims the engine mounts alone weigh ten pounds, is that necessary?
And did I once mention "plastic"?
Lighten up!
I love my sportster, but I sure don't think it's perfect.

I agree with the original poster bigdogbark, he's made some very good points and shouldn't be receiving so much flack from you guy's.


Bigdogbark is making good points, the problem is in doing so he's speaking out against the Church of Milwaukee and that upsets many HD owners since it's questioning a belief system they have an emotional investment in. Look at the posters in this thread quoting the same tired clichés from the Book of Harley all the while performing every mod imaginable just to bring their beloved 'American Iron'(tm) 'Freedom Machines'(tm) up to the performance level of a riding lawn mower.

Imagine how different motorcycles would be if Hardley had been allowed to die instead of the .gov bailing them out in the 80's and the import manufacturers had begun focusing on engineering new designs instead of rehashing the same old dog and pony show...

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3661/iraqiminoe5.jpg

Bigdogbark is making good points, the problem is in doing so he's speaking out against the Church of Milwaukee and that upsets many HD owners since it's questioning a belief system they have an emotional investment in. Look at the posters in this thread quoting the same tired clichés from the Book of Harley all the while performing every mod imaginable just to bring their beloved 'American Iron'(tm) 'Freedom Machines'(tm) up to the performance level of a riding lawn mower.

Imagine how different motorcycles would be if Hardley had been allowed to die instead of the .gov bailing them out in the 80's and the import manufacturers had begun focusing on engineering new designs instead of rehashing the same old dog and pony show...

:rolleyes:

Bigdogbark is making good points, the problem is in doing so he's speaking out against the Church of Milwaukee and that upsets many HD owners since it's questioning a belief system they have an emotional investment in. Look at the posters in this thread quoting the same tired clichés from the Book of Harley all the while performing every mod imaginable just to bring their beloved 'American Iron'(tm) 'Freedom Machines'(tm) up to the performance level of a riding lawn mower.

Imagine how different motorcycles would be if Hardley had been allowed to die instead of the .gov bailing them out in the 80's and the import manufacturers had begun focusing on engineering new designs instead of rehashing the same old dog and pony show...

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3661/iraqiminoe5.jpg

Bombs away!

Look at the posters in this thread quoting the same tired clichés from the Book of Harley all the while performing every mod imaginable just to bring their beloved 'American Iron'(tm) 'Freedom Machines'(tm) up to the performance level of a riding lawn mower.

First, when i went shopping I looked at a lot of different brands. I choose Harley and the sportster in particular because I liked their product the best.

As for mods, check out a vtx, m109r, or goldwing forum some day and see how much they spend on performance mods. Actually, to be accurate the vtx/m109r forums spend money on performance mods while the goldwing guys spend money on comfort mods. Mods are fun to do; it doesn't make them necessary.

IMO harley engines perform great in the area where 99% of the riders ride 99% of the time. I don't care about 10 extra hp on top where I never spin the engine.

I won't even comment on the lawn mower thing.

Imagine how different motorcycles would be if Hardley had been allowed to die instead of the .gov bailing them out in the 80's and the import manufacturers had begun focusing on engineering new designs instead of rehashing the same old dog and pony show...

Are you referring to that time when the japanese were going to ILLEGALLY dump a bunch of big engine motorcycles below cost? Oh the shame; preventing someone from dumping. Also, isn't Harley right now the FIRST company to go all FI?

Ive Had Quite A Few Jap Bikes But The Sportster Was My 1st Harley. I Fell In Love With The Bikes Looks And The Harley Wow Factor. But Sadly Its Ride Quality And Comfort Are Medieval Even With Suspension Upgrades. Personally I Dont Think Id Go With A Harley Again And Would Go Back To Something More Practical, Great Bike But Sadly Flawed.

First, when i went shopping I looked at a lot of different brands. I choose Harley and the sportster in particular because I liked their product the best.

As for mods, check out a vtx, m109r, or goldwing forum some day and see how much they spend on performance mods. Actually, to be accurate the vtx/m109r forums spend money on performance mods while the goldwing guys spend money on comfort mods. Mods are fun to do; it doesn't make them necessary.

IMO harley engines perform great in the area where 99% of the riders ride 99% of the time. I don't care about 10 extra hp on top where I never spin the engine.

I won't even comment on the lawn mower thing.



Are you referring to that time when the japanese were going to ILLEGALLY dump a bunch of big engine motorcycles below cost? Oh the shame; preventing someone from dumping. Also, isn't Harley right now the FIRST company to go all FI?



Dead on on all accounts,doesn't mean there isn't room for improvements,there certainly is but who wants a copy of a jap bike.
Of course in reality there have been many improvements made without sacrificing the traditional engine arcitecture that makes a Harley a Harley.
Just try and run a '67 Shovelhead or '67 Iron Sporty from 40 years ago the way you can a new '07 TC 96" or Evo Sporty and see how long either lasts trying in vain to keep up.
The Japanese have a history of the dumping method of destroying the competition you mentioned,they tried to put Hyster out of buisness the same way by illegaly dumping Toyota lift trucks below cost.
Big jap companys that make tons of different things can take a loss in one division to kill the competition in that market without taking a big hit overall.
Dirty :censor pool but they do it.

I agee with ya XL O.C.D.
I have riden Japanese bikes alot since the 1970's and apart from being fast and reliable they use cheap metals and cast alloys, they rust really fast, they are too light they get thrown around and blown off the road on windy days, they are uncomfortable to ride, they are imposible to work on with normal sized hands, they sound like a reved up sewing machines and their resale is crap, apart from that they are great I guess.

Well said. To me, a motorcycle is a toy. It should bring enjoyment to all of the senses. It shouldn't always be a rational decision like many of the other decisions we all have to make in life. If I want Jap reliability, I'll take the car- but let me tell you, I have been very impressed with the reliability of this machine.

I rather ride a HD than anything else.

http://home1.gte.net/res0sd48/emeril_bam.jpg

:smoke

Hey Bubba- if you think jap bikes are so freaking good ..the answer is simple - go buy one. If you don't like Harleys then don't buy one and as far as I know there is no law that says you have to even look at one.

A Harley is what it is .. nothing more, nothing less. If you don't understand the Harley, then there is nothing I or anybody else is going to say to change your mind.

Somehow I get the impression you wanted a Harley but settled for a plastic Jap imitation of one, and now you lament your decission.

I agree with the original poster bigdogbark, he's made some very good points and shouldn't be receiving so much flack from you guy's.
I mean, how many of you a riding a STOCK bike? Do you all really think that there is no room for improvements? I don't think so! Nobody wants USD front end, aluminum swing-arm, fifty poundsless weight (like a Bonneville), you all think the stock front springs are good enough, LMAO! Mert Lawwill claims the engine mounts alone weigh ten pounds, is that necessary?
And did I once mention "plastic"?
Lighten up!
I love my sportster, but I sure don't think it's perfect.

Hey, if I wanted perfection I would have bought Japanese bikes... Oh, sorry, I did, nine of them. I do have a sporty and it only cost me $4,000 more to fix it right......:laugh :laugh :laugh

Hey, if I wanted perfection I would have bought Japanese bikes... Oh, sorry, I did, nine of them. I do have a sporty and it only cost me $4,000 more to fix it right......:laugh :laugh :laugh
:roflblack :roflblack

Hey Bubba- if you think jap bikes are so freaking good ..the answer is simple - go buy one. If you don't like Harleys then don't buy one and as far as I know there is no law that says you have to even look at one.

A Harley is what it is .. nothing more, nothing less. If you don't understand the Harley, then there is nothing I or anybody else is going to say to change your mind.

Somehow I get the impression you wanted a Harley but settled for a plastic Jap imitation of one, and now you lament your decission.


I can't speak for other posters, but at least in my case over the years I've owned 4 HD's, each purchased new off the dealer's floor, most recently an '06 Sportster with near every mod available which was traded in October for a '06 Yamaha V-Max and a '97 FXD I sold in November and used the funds to buy an '07 Yamaha R6S.

Your statement, 'If you don't understand the Harley, then there is nothing I or anybody else is going to say to change your mind', is the old 'If I have to explain you wouldn't understand' form of the argument. Sort of like saying, 'everyone else gets it and can't be wrong and so I followed along, so why don't you understand?' Your comment is flock behavior inspired by HD's marketing, nothing more.

Don't misunderstand, I love motorcycles... all of them. Harley's sound wonderful and have a great visceral feel, but I'm no fan of Harley Davidson as a company and their drive to market image instead of engineer motorcycles. HD's became fashion accessories, places to hang HD's officially licensed store bought Liberty™ and billet garbage. Harley knows as long as they slap their logo on something people will buy it with not a thought or care. Brilliant proof of capitalism at it's finest and I give Willie G. credit for creating and feeding off the 'I own a Harley and I'm a badass' ego facade...

As long as the marketing department is able to convince people style is more important than substance and stagnation is really nostalgia, the wannabes will continue to pump their money into Milwaukee and HD can keep the doors of their engineering department closed...

this is a harley fourm is it not ! i feel that way about honda and in my life i have had 24 diffrent bikes so far and 5 were harleys but never a yamaha they dont look good and seem to copy every other bike out there ! the sportster is the roughest bike harley makes you either love em or hate em ! i dont care for the V -Rod to me its not a harley but i have a feeling thats the way harley is headed so for me i will keep my old slow ass leaking piece of shit harleys then ride Jap junk but hey thats just me

this is a harley fourm is it not ! i feel that way about honda and in my life i have had 24 diffrent bikes so far and 5 were harleys but never a yamaha they dont look good and seem to copy every other bike out there ! the sportster is the roughest bike harley makes you either love em or hate em ! i dont care for the V -Rod to me its not a harley but i have a feeling thats the way harley is headed so for me i will keep my old slow ass leaking piece of shit harleys then ride Jap junk but hey thats just me

Well, I would expect as much from someone still stuck with a glorified attempt at a production land Yacht. That’s cool as long as you understand the rest of the world is moving forward while the MoCo seemingly remains in reverse. The Sporty is nice but it’s the only Harley I would even begin to think about owning as the rest are simply expensive butt candy for the unknowing….

That’s cool as long as you understand the rest of the world is moving forward while the MoCo seemingly remains in reverse.

Really? So yamaha is moving forward by moving away from shaft driven, liquid-cooled, four cylinder engines and going to belt driven, air-cooled, v-twin engines? Wow, so they are moving forward by doing what harley has done for years and yet they are modern but Harley is going in reverse? Man, I understand everything now. It makes so much sense :laugh

And Honda has made a large displacement V-twin bike along with Suzuki because that's the modern thing to do right? So these V-twin engines that are anitqued technology and harley has used for years are modern now because the japanese manufacturers are using them and anything they do must be modern.

And moving your entire lineup of motorcycles to fuel-injection must be reverse because the japanese manufacturers still have bikes with carbs. OMG they are so innovative how can harley be so blind :laugh :laugh

Really? So yamaha is moving forward by moving away from shaft driven, liquid-cooled, four cylinder engines and going to belt driven, air-cooled, v-twin engines? Wow, so they are moving forward by doing what harley has done for years and yet they are modern but Harley is going in reverse? Man, I understand everything now. It makes so much sense :laugh

And Honda has made a large displacement V-twin bike along with Suzuki because that's the modern thing to do right? So these V-twin engines that are anitqued technology and harley has used for years are modern now because the japanese manufacturers are using them and anything they do must be modern.

And moving your entire lineup of motorcycles to fuel-injection must be reverse because the japanese manufacturers still have bikes with carbs. OMG they are so innovative how can harley be so blind :laugh :laugh

I agree totally; not everybody wants a crotch rocket; what everyone wants, it seems, is a Harley or cruiser that looks like a Harley if that is not true everyone would not be copying the Harley Davidson line of products. I hear in this thread that Honda and the others are so far ahead and thats what the buying public wants. If that is true, why did Honda drop the Valkyrie ( one of the best bikes it has ever made) in favor of a big twin motor on a bike that looks like a Glide? I will say it again why would Harley want to copy a clone of its bikes? Harley must have it right or there would not be so many knockoffs.

Really? So yamaha is moving forward by moving away from shaft driven, liquid-cooled, four cylinder engines and going to belt driven, air-cooled, v-twin engines? Wow, so they are moving forward by doing what harley has done for years and yet they are modern but Harley is going in reverse? Man, I understand everything now. It makes so much sense :laugh

From what I've seen, Yamaha's Road Star is the best of the Japanese "American style" v-twins. To me, the other Jap v-twin bikes still look like a Jap bike. The Road Star captures that authentic American style that originated with Harley, Indian, and Crocker. I think Yamaha drew heavily on the Crocker for the styling of the Road Star.

http://www.crockermotorcycleco.com/photos/ph13.jpg

http://www.crockermotorcycleco.com/photos/ph41.jpg

http://www.crockermotorcycleco.com/photos/ph6.jpg

http://www.crockermotorcycleco.com/photos/ph15.jpg

Really? So yamaha is moving forward by moving away from shaft driven, liquid-cooled, four cylinder engines and going to belt driven, air-cooled, v-twin engines? Wow, so they are moving forward by doing what harley has done for years and yet they are modern but Harley is going in reverse? Man, I understand everything now. It makes so much sense :laugh

And Honda has made a large displacement V-twin bike along with Suzuki because that's the modern thing to do right? So these V-twin engines that are anitqued technology and harley has used for years are modern now because the japanese manufacturers are using them and anything they do must be modern.

And moving your entire lineup of motorcycles to fuel-injection must be reverse because the japanese manufacturers still have bikes with carbs. OMG they are so innovative how can harley be so blind :laugh :laugh
i could have not said it better !:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

Really? So yamaha is moving forward by moving away from shaft driven, liquid-cooled, four cylinder engines and going to belt driven, air-cooled, v-twin engines? Wow, so they are moving forward by doing what harley has done for years and yet they are modern but Harley is going in reverse? Man, I understand everything now. It makes so much sense :laugh

You neglect to mention that Yamaha has figured out how to make at least, if not more, HP/TQ as a comparably-sized H-D, while easily meeting EPA requirements without leaning out the engine to ridiculous degrees, and that their bikes run as-advertised out-of-the-box with no requirement for a Stage anything.

And Honda has made a large displacement V-twin bike along with Suzuki because that's the modern thing to do right? So these V-twin engines that are anitqued technology and harley has used for years are modern now because the japanese manufacturers are using them and anything they do must be modern.

These twins are all liquid-cooled. Why do they make them? Apparently their customers like them. They also run as-advertised out-of-the-box with no requirement for a Stage anything.

And moving your entire lineup of motorcycles to fuel-injection must be reverse because the japanese manufacturers still have bikes with carbs. OMG they are so innovative how can harley be so blind :laugh :laugh

And all their carbureted bikes meet EPA requirements without affecting their performance.

I'm no big fan of metrics, but let's not oversimplify. Harley could be doing a much better job of delivering ready-to-ride motorcycles (witness all the overheating problems with the new 96 engine).

Its Ride Quality And Comfort Are Medieval Even With Suspension Upgrades but thats the sportster thats the good thing about it it feels like a motorcycle not a sofa ! like i said before ya either love em or hate em !

Here's the deal: If you want a metric, buy one. Who gives a rat's ass what you ride, as long as you are riding. If you want a Harley, buy one. It's that friggin simple. As far as product goes, I'd rather have a bike that I enjoy and that means both riding and maintainence and for me that is why I got a Sportster. If I can't find a good deal on a low or an older hugger, my wife is getting a metric. Will I work on it? No. Will I ride it? Yes. Will I enjoy it? Possibly.

My 07 Sportster ran perfectly from day one. :banana

Really? So yamaha is moving forward by moving away from shaft driven, liquid-cooled, four cylinder engines and going to belt driven, air-cooled, v-twin engines? Wow, so they are moving forward by doing what harley has done for years and yet they are modern but Harley is going in reverse? Man, I understand everything now. It makes so much sense :laugh



This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Harley being bailed out in the 80's had caused the entire industry to fall backwards. The imports makers are simply cashing in on the money that's to be made, just like Harley is, nothing more nothing less. It's called capitalism, but I do truly wish the import makers would leave the cruiser motif to the hillbillies from Milwaukee and concentrate on engineering. I'd love to see where the import makers would be if they left the V-twin alone...

I recall an article I read in a magazine [Rider?] in the early 80's where Honda said they considered the V-twin engine dead end engineering and didn't plan on introducing any... funny how the almighty dollar can get people to change their minds... :frownthre Too bad for all motorcyclists who see technology and high end engineering in a different light.

I still stand by what I said: Harley was resurrected by the .gov imposed tariffs on large displacement bikes like some George Romero zombie and motorcycling has suffered ever since...

This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Harley being bailed out in the 80's had caused the entire industry to fall backwards. The imports makers are simply cashing in on the money that's to be made, just like Harley is, nothing more nothing less. It's called capitalism, but I do truly wish the import makers would leave the cruiser motif to the hillbillies from Milwaukee and concentrate on engineering. I'd love to see where the import makers would be if they left the V-twin alone...

I recall an article I read in a magazine [Rider?] in the early 80's where Honda said they considered the V-twin engine dead end engineering and didn't plan on introducing any... funny how the almighty dollar can get people to change their minds... :frownthre Too bad for all motorcyclists who see technology and high end engineering in a different light.

I still stand by what I said: Harley was resurrected by the .gov imposed tariffs on large displacement bikes like some George Romero zombie and motorcycling has suffered ever since...

I can only think of one reason why a person who feels the way you do about HD would continue to post on a HD forum. :rolleyes:

I can only think of one reason why a person who feels the way you do about HD would continue to post on a HD forum. :rolleyes:



...and I suspect you'd be wrong...



Very simply, I delight in watching people cornered by logic squint their eyes down tight, cover their ears and scream, 'la la la I don't hear this'... I enjoy pointing out the ridiculous in life. Call it a personal flaw...:D


edited to add: And I support the XLF... where's your team membership, stud? It's all just good banter, no matter what...

This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Harley being bailed out in the 80's had caused the entire industry to fall backwards. The imports makers are simply cashing in on the money that's to be made, just like Harley is, nothing more nothing less. It's called capitalism, but I do truly wish the import makers would leave the cruiser motif to the hillbillies from Milwaukee and concentrate on engineering. I'd love to see where the import makers would be if they left the V-twin alone...

I recall an article I read in a magazine [Rider?] in the early 80's where Honda said they considered the V-twin engine dead end engineering and didn't plan on introducing any... funny how the almighty dollar can get people to change their minds... :frownthre Too bad for all motorcyclists who see technology and high end engineering in a different light.

I still stand by what I said: Harley was resurrected by the .gov imposed tariffs on large displacement bikes like some George Romero zombie and motorcycling has suffered ever since...


How is making a product that the consuming public wants causing the industry to fall backward? If you want a bike that looks like one from Star Wars buy one but don't be bitter that 98% of the motorcycle buying public doesn't agree with you. The only reason anyone maufactures any product is because it fullfills someones desire to have that product. No one in a free market is going to force the consumer to buy what they do not want. As far as the Harley being baled out the Government only did what it should have done with a number of industries, they have let government subsidized companies from other countries destroy our manufacturing base. Thats why now that the steel indrustry is gone in this country there is no longer cheap steel from China.

I still stand by what I said: Harley was resurrected by the .gov imposed tariffs on large displacement bikes like some George Romero zombie and motorcycling has suffered ever since...

So you consider the dumping of large displacement motorcycles that the Japanese were going to do perfectly ok? You see no problem with that unethical practice? I mean let's be real here you blame the gov from preventing the japanese from dumping motorcycles, but you don't critize them for the dumping? Does that make much sense to you Mr. Logic?

And motorcycling has suffered? Nobody forced anybody to buy a Harley-Davidson. How have they inflicted suffering on the motorcycle world?

This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Harley being bailed out in the 80's had caused the entire industry to fall backwards. The imports makers are simply cashing in on the money that's to be made, just like Harley is, nothing more nothing less. It's called capitalism

They didn't cause anybody to fall backwards. Harley developed their V-twin engines while the japanese developed their inline four engines. Then the japanese came to the conclusion that nobody wanted their four cylinder engines and then started to copy and sell v-twin engines. If the japanese had a superior product, then it would have sold better instead of them copying Harley.

Ever since then the history of their development has been decrease the stroke by half a mm, increase the bore by half a mm, then claim it as the lastest and greatest.

And for 2007 it is predicted that Harley motorcycle sales will surpass Honda motorcycle sales because Honda sales are dropping 7% while Harley sales are rising 7%. If Honda made such better bikes, then why are they losing market share? Harley is going to sell more big cruisers than all the sportbikes, cruisers, sport-touring, and dirt bikes that Honda sells.

And how has Honda made the V-twin engine better with superior innovation? It really hasn't. Honda V-twin's still have rocker box leaks and other oil leaks. All they did was bring the engines to higher displacements. Then at those higher displacements they don't make anymore power while using liquid-cooling and more valves per cylinder. The 1200 sportster engine is stronger than the 1300 vtx engine.


Very simply, I delight in watching people cornered by logic squint their eyes down tight, cover their ears and scream, 'la la la I don't hear this'... I enjoy pointing out the ridiculous in life. Call it a personal flaw...

Really? We have some of the smartest people in the world (engineers, doctors, rocket scientists, etc.) riding Harley's yet we are the unlogical idiots? The japanese manufacturers cater to the walmart and target culture and yet those people are somehow smarter than Harley riders?

My 07 Sportster ran perfectly from day one. :banana

I'm glad to hear that. My '05 ran like crap until we did a Stage I, and I would say the same about every other new Harley I've bought. For years, the mantra has been, "Just do the Stage I and you'll be happy."

So, your experience indicates that Harley is, indeed, learning.

As to the original idea that began this thread, that Harley should consider what other manufacturers are doing, I'm absolutely certain they already do. I would bet anything that in Harley's R&D shop, as in those of every other motor vehicle manufacturer, you'd find disassembled machines from many other makers. Harley knows what everyone else is doing. They also have a somewhat unique challenge in that they've created an image they have to carefully maintain, lest they offend their long-time and loyal customer base. So, they move slowly, more slowly than some of us would like, but they are carefully evolving the product line.

At same time, they have to attract new buyers, and many of those new buyers are of a different generation, do not want to tinker with their bikes, and want the machines they buy to function as advertised without the need for a Stage anything. So, yet another challenge.

Finally, back to the beginning of this thread. I don't think the original intent was to trash H-d, or praise metrics, but merely to suggest something that is already happening. And it certainly wasn't anti-Sporty in any way. Instead, it seemed an attempt to begin a general discussion on the development of motorcycles. There are, after all, many on this forum who enjoy discussing something beyond the usual 'Which oil do you use?', 'Which seat, handlebars, mufflers I should buy?', etc. And, as has been pointed out before, there IS room for general motorcycling discussion on this forum.

HARLEY-DAVIDSON, INC.
2006 Quarterly Motorcycle Shipments
(UNITS)

HARLEY-DAVIDSON® Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 2006
All 651+cc

Sportster® 16,175 15,746 16,909 48,830
Custom 35,794 36,714 44,096 116,604
Touring 27,537 27,336 36,041 90,914
79,506 79,796 97,046 0 256,348

Domestic 60,270 58,052 80,398 198,720
International 19,236 21,744 16,648 57,628
79,506 79,796 97,046 0 256,348

BUELL® UNITS
Buell 651+cc 2,578 3,148 2,131 7,857

Buell Total 3,037 3,539 2,529 9,105

I'm glad to hear that. My '05 ran like crap until we did a Stage I, and I would say the same about every other new Harley I've bought. For years, the mantra has been, "Just do the Stage I and you'll be happy."

So, your experience indicates that Harley is, indeed, learning.

Yes, I think Harley finally figured that closed-loop EFI was the only way to go.

CBAS5, please if you could provide the evidence or any links that motorcycle dumping was taking place, I'd love to read it and I'm the first one to admit it when I'm wrong. I will do some searching on the topic. I seriously don't recall dumping, I was riding a '78 Low Rider in those days and was indeed carrying the water for HD and did want them to survive... It was later when I saw HD say screw the old riders and old owners and start marketing t-shirts and beer to middle class wannabes instead of taking the chance they were given to really take the lead as a true American motorcycle developing powerhouse that I turned a bit rancid toward them.

I was able to find this:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa032.html

When I say the industry fell backwards, I'm referring to the import manufacturers embracing the V-twin anew and focusing their attention and engineers on them instead of saying, 'Harley does the V-twin best, leave it to them and lets develop an inline 6 or V-6 motorcycle engine or a thermonuclear whatsis or whatever'...

Harley does the V-twin well, it's their niche, I've got no bones there at all. The import makers desire to have a piece of the pie is good business, but I believe the industry as a whole suffers when marketing and the drive for market share become the motivating force. The import manufacturers used to focus, not quite as much now, on racing for the sake of winning and the technology developed for their racing programs spilled over into their consumer production bikes. When the manufacturers keep shuffling the same old parts around so as not to stray from the format and lose market share development stagnates...

I realize how it comes off when I say it would have been better for HD to have died in the 80's. Seeing the old, traditional Harley Davidson motorcycle company and all it stood for dead and now hawking t-shirts instead of real American Iron while import manufacturers run around trying to pick up scraps dropped from the table is what I mean when I say the industry is moving backwards...

...and I suspect you'd be wrong...



Very simply, I delight in watching people cornered by logic squint their eyes down tight, cover their ears and scream, 'la la la I don't hear this'... I enjoy pointing out the ridiculous in life. Call it a personal flaw...:D

No, that's pretty much what I figured. Though you and I have different definitions for "the ridiculous in life."


edited to add: And I support the XLF... where's your team membership, stud?

All that tells me is you've paid for the privilege of being contentious here.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa032.html

Excellent article.

. . . but I believe the industry as a whole suffers when marketing and the drive for market share become the motivating force. . . .

Unfortunately, this comes along with public ownership and the attention of stock market analysts/pundits, who can seriously undermine a successful company with a series of bad recomendations.

CBAS5, please if you could provide the evidence or any links that motorcycle dumping was taking place, I'd love to read it and I'm the first one to admit it when I'm wrong.

Here are two links that I found that mention dumping:

Meanwhile, the competition was moving ahead. Though the recession of the early 1980s had depressed demand for heavyweight bikes, Japanese manufacturers swamped the U.S. market with their surplus inventory, driving average market prices down still further. In 1982, however, the company won an anti-dumping judgment from the International Trade Commission (ITC). This led then-U.S. President Ronald Reagan to impose additional tariffs on imported heavyweight Japanese models, as allowed by the ITC.

http://www.answers.com/topic/harley-davidson

# In 1983, Harley successfully pushed for a 45% tariff on large imported motorcycles claiming that Japanese manufacturers were dumping them on the US market in large numbers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/harley_davidson/49432.stm


It was later when I saw HD say screw the old riders and old owners and start marketing t-shirts and beer to middle class wannabes instead of taking the chance they were given to really take the lead as a true American motorcycle developing powerhouse that I turned a bit rancid toward them.


I personally don't like that practice either. However, it made them money and worked. Honda and other japanese manufacturer's tried the same thing of selling motor cloths and other things with their logo, but they failed because nobody bought that stuff. The japanese tried the same practice. The only difference is that they failed and now they use it to make fun of harley. If they had succeeded, then they would have been praising their marketing innovation.

Here is a Honda merchandise website:
http://www.hondapartsdeals.com/index.php?cName=honda-merchandise&gclid=CNyiyvLYx4kCFQGPWAodgH4_NQ

The import makers desire to have a piece of the pie is good business, but I believe the industry as a whole suffers when marketing and the drive for market share become the motivating force.

This is the problem that I have with them. They desire a piece of the pie in a highly unethical way. They will see that a motorcycle is selling well and instead of creating a motorcycle that falls into that category they instead copy one. Basically, they copy the style, add some mechanical improvements, and drop the price. That practice isn't much better than stealing someone's design. In the 70's when triumph was in the spotlight there were tons of japanese triumph clones. Right now when Harley is in the spotlight there are tons of japanese harley clones.

Harley or triumph have never done that. When triumph wanted to make a sportbike they didn't make an inline four clone; they used a inline three design that is true to triumph heritage. When Harley wanted to make a power cruiser they didn't go and copy a V-4; they made a V-twin with unique styling. The triumph rocket is pure power without having to copy anything.

What the japanese do is no better than taking an existing product, producing a copy and adding one or two features, and then selling it for a lower cost. That's stealing a product IMO. Weren't we boycotting a company that did exactly that not too long ago?

As for innovation it is not Harley's fault that they don't innovate. Their customers don't want innovation. In the end, isn't it better for your survival to give your customers what they want? Look at buell. They have done great things with the sportster engine but sales are lacking. Look at the V-Rod. For years it was in a class of it's own and still has a better 1/4 mi. time than the competition using 109 ci. engines. It never received the recognition it deserved, but the bikes that copied it were praised.

Have you ever heard of the Nova project?

http://www.bikerenews.com/AntiqueBikes/CodeNameNova.htm

That was basically the grandfather of the V-max in the late 1970's. It had 135 hp, which was very performance oriented. It was never released, but if it was then Harley may have bankrupt due to a lack of sales.

Everytime they try to release a performance model of their bikes it pretty much flops in terms of sales. So do you blame them for giving the consumer what they want and abandoning what doesn't sell?

The last time I looked all of the Jap manufactures had 200 mph racing bikes for sale on their showroom floor. They are not what most of the motorcycle buying public wants. I can understand what you want but all of these companies answer to the sales numbers and the stock price. Even if Harley Davidson had failed in the 80s someone would have filled the vacancy and would be manufacturing what the public wants. At the time of tariffs Yamaha was well on the way with their Virago line of bikes. The Star line is the result of this line of bikes. The only thing these publicly traded companies are conserned about is stock price and profit. You will only get the developments that the rest of the sheep want.

Ok I got bored with this dead horse. Barely made it through the first page. I think your japasuki just sprung a leak...

Have you ever heard of the Nova project?

http://www.bikerenews.com/AntiqueBikes/CodeNameNova.htm

That was basically the grandfather of the V-max in the late 1970's. It had 135 hp, which was very performance oriented. It was never released, but if it was then Harley may have bankrupt due to a lack of sales.

It looks to me like the V-Rod engine was derived from this Nova powerplant.

Thanks for the links... It does look like there was an intent to flood the market by the import makers during the early 80's and I stand corrected. I don't recall it being discussed at the time but it does indeed appear that it was happening, thankyou for the correction.

I do think we're all at about the same place on this whole topic. Like you I dislike the import attempts to copy successful design as much as I dislike HD's merchandising. I don't blame anyone for building what sells and I understand the reality of consumerism and a profit driven system but we end up seeing the manufacturers chase their tails and only rarely drop something new on us... and that's too bad for all motorcyclists. Better the manufacturers do what they do best, build their unique bikes instead of copying designs or selling beef jerky but I realize that's the fantasy.

I do indeed remember the Nova Project... Rider magazine had journalists staking out different HD test areas with long range telephoto lenses to try and get a picture. Harley had covered the entire engine area of the bike in large pieces of steel to keep the secret design from being seen. The pictures in Rider magazine were grainy and fuzzy but you could catch glimpses of the water jacket and I remember thinking HD was on the way back from the brink.

I think the poor sales of the V-Rod are a fault of dealers as well as the customer base. Atleast in my experience I don't think the dealers care for it and make it obvious. If my local HD dealer hadn't treated the V-Rod on his floor like such a bastard stepchild and try and steer me into a Softail I might have really considered it. Instead I ended up with a V-Max a short time later...

Ok I got bored with this dead horse. Barely made it through the first page. I think your japasuki just sprung a leak...

:laugh This thread got boring real quick.

I for one prefer the simplicity of the air cooled pushrod hydraulic lifter engine for it's ease of maintainence,they are so simple a top end overhaul can be considered maintainence.
100K miles can be had out of a Harley engine with a little care before a top end job is needed and then the job is so simple the average Joe can do it at home.
By contrast a 4 or 6 cylinder,multi carb, multivalve engine with water cooling may make more power but is much more complicated to work on and most require valve adjustment every 5K -10K and over time can become more costly to maintain and repair than to replace.
There's a reason the scrap yards are full of unwrecked 10-20 year old jap bikes but there are still lots of 10-20-30-40-50 year old and older Harleys still running around.
I have over 120,000 miles on my Harley and it's been quite reliable , I fully expect to double that with ease and still have a running machine worth keeping.
It may not be as fast as a Goldwing but it's fast enough,handles well enough and it may not go as many miles without a top end job but but a fresh top end is easier to do than a valve adjust on the Honda.
Once that high tech wonder does get tired it's days are numbered do to the expense of repair.
The big jap bikes have their merits but so do the Harleys,they are just different.
Different strokes for different folks.

I believe the engineers at HD need to take a trip/ride on some Honda's, Kaws, and Yamaha's. They will find many ideas that are better then HD offer. I like water-cool engines, low maintenance rides, better suspension and so on.
I am not saying that HD should copy Japan but to learn from them and improve on it. Just looking at them you will see that they looked at HD and improved on it. Where they came up short is keeping models in production.
Good luck to HD but really is the 95 incher an improvement or just an EPA band-aid?
As a side note I was a holder of HD stock but I am seriously considering shorting it due to some of your marketing ideas. Go talk to builders, Honda, Yamaha and others.

Let's see: The watercooled, plain-bearing crankshaft, double overhead cammed, 9,000 rpm, 11 second 1/4 mile V-Rod isn't a move forward? The Buells are not innovative chassis concepts put to real production? How much more low maintenance do you want than belt drive, EFI, and hydraulic lifters? And the new BT engine is a 96". H-D is running a tight-rope beteen EPA and what traditional H-D consumers want. H-D doesn't need to look to the Japs for innovation. YOU need to look at the whole H-D line in better detail.

I think HD knows their customer preeeettttty well. Except for the V-Rod experiment. Those V-Rods sell like Hot Cakes now don't they.

The last time I looked all of the Jap manufactures had 200 mph racing bikes for sale on their showroom floor. They are not what most of the motorcycle buying public wants. I can understand what you want but all of these companies answer to the sales numbers and the stock price. Even if Harley Davidson had failed in the 80s someone would have filled the vacancy and would be manufacturing what the public wants. At the time of tariffs Yamaha was well on the way with their Virago line of bikes. The Star line is the result of this line of bikes. The only thing these publicly traded companies are conserned about is stock price and profit. You will only get the developments that the rest of the sheep want.

As stated, all of the Jap bikes have hyper-sports machines for sale. While not what the "majority" of consumers want, the sales are significant enough that these bikes require complete design overhauls about every five years to remain competitive in sales and performance - and it takes substantial demand for these bikes to offer Formula I type performance for only $8,000-$15,000. If they only sold a handfull, these machines would be $30,000 a crack.

It looks to me like the V-Rod engine was derived from this Nova powerplant.


The basic V-Rod design came from the VR-1000 road-race bike. They raced, learned, made necessary marketing changes, and put it into production.

4 valves 2cylinder simple air-cooled design works pretty well, it takes 4cylinders 16valves bunch of carbs water cooled and a lot of plastic to smoke you on a few bike lengths. face it most of of us drive on roads not race tracks, so low end power is what you use most. the Sportster looks good sounds good got good low end, I got foward contorls and don,t have to hug a gas tank with the back of my shirt flying up over my head. works for me, anyway.:tour

The basic V-Rod design came from the VR-1000 road-race bike. They raced, learned, made necessary marketing changes, and put it into production.

Then possibly the VR1000 engine was derived from the NOVA project engine. The casings look very similar. And the article states Porsche was used in the development of the NOVA project engine.

Then possibly the VR1000 engine was derived from the NOVA project engine. The casings look very similar. And the article states Porsche was used in the development of the NOVA project engine.

That is correct,they are both related as part of Harley's long standing engineering partnership with Porsche.
The biggest difference is that the Nova was V-4

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d173/y2keglide/h61.jpg

That is correct,they are both related as part of Harley's long standing engineering partnership with Porsche.
The biggest difference is that the Nova was V-4

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d173/y2keglide/h61.jpg

The more closely I look at the Revolution and Nova engines, the less similar they look to me now. The Nova engine is stressed, while the V-Rod engine isn't. And the cases really are not all that similar. (I don't no why they appeared to be on first blush.) The article did note, however, that the Nova was designed to be built as a v-twin, v-four, or v-six.

Where was that picture of a Nova taken?

Where was that picture of a Nova taken?

If I remember right it's in Trev Deeleys museum.

http://www.trevdeeley.com/