Dear Harley-Davidson,

You might make excellent motorcycle engines and your chrome & paintwork skills are beyond reproach. But when it comes to designing and specifying motorcycle suspension, you suck ... big time.

The XL50 I recently purchased was my first Harley ... and I had been wanting one for quite some time. I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I rode it on the first bumpy road. The stock suspension is appalling, but because it is an essential part of a motorcycle's roadworthiness, in my opinion it is also downright dangerous. How your engineers can be satisified with those specifications and ride is beyond me.

I didn't realise just how bad it was until I found this forum and read about all the other Sportster owners complaining of poor stock suspension. Taking their lead, I fitted Progressive 412 aftermarket shock absorbers to the rear. The difference in ride and handling is like night & day. Unfortunately I'll have to do the same to the front forks now as well, because the 412's are showing up how bad the stock front suspension is.

I would have expected much better from such a world class icon. This might be my first Harley, but I can tell you it will also be my last if you don't lift your game. I can hardly recommend you to any of my associates either.

Do your customers a favor. Either fix the stock suspension or give them a voucher to go and buy a set of Progressive shocks and springs and admit you no nothing about motorcycle suspension. At least that way you're being honest and your customers will respect you more.

Yesterday, I owned a Harley Sportster. Today, I own a Harley Sportster that actually rides and handles the way a true motorcycle should.

:laugh I totally understand your dissapointment.

Its been my number 1 complaint about all 3 of my HD's (2 Sporties and a softail)

They used to fit pretty decent suspension to the S model Sporty. Those shocks and forks should have migrated to the other models but instead they ditched it :rolleyes:

Oh well, progressive are doin' well out of it anyway :)

obiwan,

I bet most of us will sign your letter. Suspension complaints on Harley's are universal.

Progressive must be either owned by H-D, or the owners are laughing all the way to the bank.

Progressive must be either owned by H-D, or the owners are laughing all the way to the bank.
You know, I'm wondering about that now? I bought a shock adjusting tool from my dealer for the stock shocks. When I unpacked the Progessives, the box contained the exact same tool. Checked the one from the dealer again ... sure enough ... both stamped "Progressive Suspension" !!!

You could be right! :wonderlan

Sounds like big brother conspiracy.............

Not defending H-D suspension because I also agree that it leaves alot in the box, just trying to rationalize why H-D keeps the poor shocks standard. Could this be the reason. Suspension on a bike is very subjective to personal needs and requirements. If Harley raised the factory price and stuck 412's on, they may not be what a 125 lb rider needs nor what a 250 lb rider wants. Rather than make suspension a selection decision at time of purchase, they may fill that spot with real cheap shocks knowing that the purchaser will be dialing it in to their own needs. I would feel worse throwing a set off 412's in the garbage because my size or riding style needed 418's or 440's. Just a thought.
Wagondog

Not defending H-D suspension because I also agree that it leaves alot in the box, just trying to rationalize why H-D keeps the poor shocks standard. Could this be the reason. Suspension on a bike is very subjective to personal needs and requirements. If Harley raised the factory price and stuck 412's on, they may not be what a 125 lb rider needs nor what a 250 lb rider wants. Rather than make suspension a selection decision at time of purchase, they may fill that spot with real cheap shocks knowing that the purchaser will be dialing it in to their own needs. I would feel worse throwing a set off 412's in the garbage because my size or riding style needed 418's or 440's. Just a thought.
Wagondog

That sorta makes sense except when you think about every other brand of motorcycle in the world which manages to produce bikes that at least fit 80% (just my guess) of riders who buy them, compared to HD which suit maybe 10% of buyers.

Cheers,

Brett

That sorta makes sense except when you think about every other brand of motorcycle in the world which manages to produce bikes that at least fit 80% (just my guess) of riders who buy them, compared to HD which suit maybe 10% of buyers.

Cheers,

Brett
Brett,
You know how whacked out we are when it comes to our Sportsters, don't know about you but I could almost build another one with the stuff I took off and stashed away. Even if the suspension fitted our needs, there is so much info and hype out there in catalogs, forums, etc. we are led to believe there is something better and we get it no matter what. so Harley actually saved us money by putting on $hit shocks so we can spend our money on good stuff that fits.:banana :banana :banana :banana
Wagondog

That sorta makes sense except when you think about every other brand of motorcycle in the world which manages to produce bikes that at least fit 80% (just my guess) of riders who buy them, compared to HD which suit maybe 10% of buyers.

Cheers,

Brett

Every car I've purchased needed new shocks within a few thousand miles. :doh It is how they keep the costs down, although they don't pass the savings on to the consumer:doh :shhhh :censor

obiwan,

the owners are laughing all the way to the bank.

We have a winner. I can just imagine Willie G. looking up from his financial reports and merchandise marketing statements, reading this thread and laughing his butt off...

Not to put to fine a point on it, but why should HD do anything about the suspension? Harley Davidson is quite possibly the smartest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. The antique suspension and other assorted engineering mediocrity are well known and documented. Even knowing that, you still bought the bike. HD sells image, if you want it to perform, well, that's another story. If you want HD to change something you tell them when you purchase or don't purchase their product and since HD sells near every bike they produce why should they change anything?

Every car I've purchased needed new shocks within a few thousand miles.

What kind of cars are you buying? No offense, but that sounds like more of a matter of personal preference than anything else.

That said, I think H-D is staring down the barrel of something of a backlash. Their marketing and promo departments are working the H-D image for all they are worth and dragging new buyers into the showrooms in record numbers. But many of these new buyers expect their bikes to run and perform as advertised straight out of the showroom. For the most part, they are not tinkerers and are not amused at the suggestions that they have to change suspension, do a Stage whatever (taking it out of EPA compliance), or otherwise modify a brand new machine in order for it to run properly. I think it would be wise for the MoCo to stop taking its customers for granted, refocus on the products themselves, and maybe spend a little less time on coming up with the next Creed-type video.

HD sells image, if you want it to perform, well, that's another story. If you want HD to change something you tell them when you purchase or don't purchase their product. . . .

Exactly my point. Which is why I won't be buying that '07 Road Glide this Spring. For around $20,000, I don't want to hear about Stage anything, remaps, or SERTs, or anything else to clear up the overheating and performance problems that should have been resolved BEFORE they brought the 96" engine to market.

Brett,
You know how whacked out we are when it comes to our Sportsters, don't know about you but I could almost build another one with the stuff I took off and stashed away. Even if the suspension fitted our needs, there is so much info and hype out there in catalogs, forums, etc. we are led to believe there is something better and we get it no matter what. so Harley actually saved us money by putting on $hit shocks so we can spend our money on good stuff that fits.:banana :banana :banana :banana
Wagondog

I sorta agree with you on this as well. I COULD almost build another one with take-offs. But they aren't saving US money cos they still sell new bikes at hefty premium over other brands. They are certainly lining their own pockets and upsetting a few buyers (not to mention motorcycle reviewers) in the process.

I might have changed the shocks anyway, but then again, I might have spent it on something else for the sporty instead.

I think they could put better shocks/forks on sportys and still make a good margin - many of us would be happier (many would still change them out), the sporty would get a better review in magazines and they might even sell more of them.

Cheers,

Brett

Not to put to fine a point on it, but why should HD do anything about the suspension? Harley Davidson is quite possibly the smartest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. The antique suspension and other assorted engineering mediocrity are well known and documented. Even knowing that, you still bought the bike. HD sells image, if you want it to perform, well, that's another story. If you want HD to change something you tell them when you purchase or don't purchase their product and since HD sells near every bike they produce why should they change anything?
Actually, I didn't know that before buying the bike, and I didn't honestly think I was buying just the hollowed-out shell of a once great motorcycle either. Since I'd wanted a Sportster for near on thirty years, I thought I was buying one of the world's greatest motorcycles. I must have missed something in all those years of riding Jap crap.

So, more fool me, for thinking I was finally getting something outstanding. Seems all the negative comments I've read since purchasing are coming true. HD is, from a modern engineering aspect, a dinosaur. A has-been, who's glory days are well and truly over.

If they are just selling an image and relying on the proliferation of aftermarket manufacturers to turn a stock bike into something rideable, then eventually that image will be so tarnished they won't be able to sell so much as a spark plug. People will eventually wise-up.

Believe it or not, there are people who thought they bought a complete motorcycle, one of the world's best. Not a hyped-up name on a cobbled together set of obsolete, unworking parts. You don't shell out hard-earned to buy one of the most expensive motorcyles and expect the suspension, a critical component, not to work.

Imagine buying a Ferrari and then having to go to a local Indy to buy a steering box because the stock one was unusable!

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

I bought an 883, when I was advised to buy a 1200. Spent around $250 on a stage one and couldn't be happier. I've had no problem at all with the bike or suspension, but I only weigh about 175 and always ride solo. I had several jap motorcycles before the Sportster and I was always wanting to change this or that on them, but this wasn't possible because neither the manufacturer nor aftermarket sold anything for my bikes. The ability to buy parts and change my bike into anything I wanted was the primary reason for my buying a Sportster and I haven't been disappointed.

. I must have missed something in all those years of riding Jap crap.



What you were missing while you were riding 'jap crap' was you were becoming a victim of marketing. Somewhere, someone convinced you that import manufacturers were 'jap crap' or 'riceburners' and the Harley Davidson was "all that, the real American FREEDOM MACHINE™". The truth is HD's are fashion accessories now, a self propelled ego facade, the 'I ride a Harley and I'm a badass' mentality. Harley makes more money on their merchandising than they make on the bikes, the motorcycles are forgotten in the drive to sell t-shirts and beef jerky and billet to RUB's.

I am sorry the reality of your new ride doesn't match your expectation, it took me owning 4 HD's before I understood... Ofcourse now I'm called traitor. :D I completely agree with you that there will come a time in the future where HD's marketing will come home to them, their lack of vision will be their undoing and they'll be holding out their hands for a .gov bailout just like they did in the early 80's.

I do believe you're ready for the next step:

http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/main.htm

One of my favorite quotes about Harley:

If NASA were in the same technology rut that Harley Davidson is in, Neil Armstrong would have gone to the moon launched from the world's biggest slingshot...

With all the bitchin by me and others about how H-D could and probably should make us a better bike, why do we own what we own. the day I laid down the money for my Sporty was one of the days in my life that opened up so many new adventures for me and many new friends met on the road for me. So I had to dress it up and change the seat and the fork springs and the shocks and the jets and the wheels and the tires and the throttle cables and the fuel petcock and the brake pads and put on a windshield and foward controls and saddlebags. Life gets no better:tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour :tour
Wagondog:D

here we go again... i have noticed that there are two types of lemmings in the hd world. those that blindly buy into the hd image, and those that jump on the 'i got suckered by the crappy ________ (fillin blank)'

a harley is not a 'hollow shell', but a blank canvas on which to impart your own sense of style. look in the boutique, there are a thousand different ways to make this bike yours.

how many people buy something and keep it totally bone stock? sure, there are some, but most people add something to make it theirs, even if its only a new tape deck (that would be in a car folks). if your handy with a set of tools, the cost is fairly minimal. stage 1 cost a couple hundred bucks, and i got a set of 440s for my bike for 150. hell, i would venture a guess that there are a lot of people who have spent that much on (unnecessary) chrome doo dads.

Exactly my point. Which is why I won't be buying that '07 Road Glide this Spring. For around $20,000, I don't want to hear about Stage anything, remaps, or SERTs, or anything else to clear up the overheating and performance problems that should have been resolved BEFORE they brought the 96" engine to market.

thats too bad. there are a lot of people who are very happy with the new 96, and have left it bone stock, straight out of the box. i have an 07 road king. it is 'almost' stock- i did buy a corbin solo seat since i don't need to ride 2 up, wife has her own bike, and a lay back license plate mount for it. i have no overheating or performance problems with mine. and i know quite a few others who don't either. but hey, its your dime, if you choose not to spend it, well, no sweat off my balls. what i have noticed from reading other forums is that there is a small number of people who are not happy but they post a gajillion times making it look like there are more.

if you want to ride a metric bike, go get a metric bike. i'll stilll wave to ya, and even help you if you break down on the side of the road.

and for all you doomsayers out there, have you seen the cost of harley stock lately? before i went to iraq, it was about 45, now its almost 72. i think that speaks for itself.

What you were missing while you were riding 'jap crap' was you were becoming a victim of marketing. Somewhere, someone convinced you that import manufacturers were 'jap crap' or 'riceburners' and the Harley Davidson was "all that, the real American FREEDOM MACHINE™". The truth is HD's are fashion accessories now, a self propelled ego facade, the 'I ride a Harley and I'm a badass' mentality. Harley makes more money on their merchandising than they make on the bikes, the motorcycles are forgotten in the drive to sell t-shirts and beef jerky and billet to RUB's.

I am sorry the reality of your new ride doesn't match your expectation, it took me owning 4 HD's before I understood... Ofcourse now I'm called traitor. :D I completely agree with you that there will come a time in the future where HD's marketing will come home to them, their lack of vision will be their undoing and they'll be holding out their hands for a .gov bailout just like they did in the early 80's.

I do believe you're ready for the next step:

http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/main.htm

One of my favorite quotes about Harley:

thanks for that link, hilarious! i found this. seems appropriate for this thread.


Q: Did you hear that Harley and the makers of Viagra are teaming up for a new officially licensed and endorsed version of the wonder pill to be available over the counter without a prescription at dealerships across the country?

A: It's called Buyagra and the more you spend, the harder you get.

I've changed shocks on almost every brand of bike i've owned. Thats on standard style and crusier type bikes, the r1's,gsxr's,cbrr's ect. are race track breed so there shocks are completly differant. There cost reflects that like over $8,500 for a 600cc sports bike when a 883cc standard cost $6,595

If they are just selling an image and relying on the proliferation of aftermarket manufacturers to turn a stock bike into something rideable, then eventually that image will be so tarnished they won't be able to sell so much as a spark plug. People will eventually wise-up.



Have to disagree. Have you been to your local HD dealer lately? Most of the posers parading around there don't care two hoots about their poor suspension. It's all about having something with "HARLEY DAVIDSON" written on it.

Riders who want a better performing bike and don't care for the HD heritage/image will indeed go to another manufacturer.

What you were missing while you were riding 'jap crap' was you were becoming a victim of marketing. Somewhere, someone convinced you that import manufacturers were 'jap crap' or 'riceburners' and the Harley Davidson was "all that, the real American FREEDOM MACHINE™". The truth is HD's are fashion accessories now, a self propelled ego facade, the 'I ride a Harley and I'm a badass' mentality. Harley makes more money on their merchandising than they make on the bikes, the motorcycles are forgotten in the drive to sell t-shirts and beef jerky and billet to RUB's.

I am sorry the reality of your new ride doesn't match your expectation, it took me owning 4 HD's before I understood... Ofcourse now I'm called traitor. :D I completely agree with you that there will come a time in the future where HD's marketing will come home to them, their lack of vision will be their undoing and they'll be holding out their hands for a .gov bailout just like they did in the early 80's.

I do believe you're ready for the next step:

http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/main.htm

One of my favorite quotes about Harley:

Why be called a traitor? Just find a forum you fit in with, sure seems your unhappy here.:(

I had several jap motorcycles before the Sportster and I was always wanting to change this or that on them, but this wasn't possible because neither the manufacturer nor aftermarket sold anything for my bikes. The ability to buy parts and change my bike into anything I wanted was the primary reason for my buying a Sportster and I haven't been disappointed.

There's another plus for Harley right there. On previously owned bikes, my Yamaha got too old(4 years) to buy the rack to go with the backrest. It was discontinued. My Suzuki needed Progressive springs worse than my Harley. I bought them while I still could. My first Sportster, a 2003 883XL actually had OK suspension it worked fine. The '04s gained weight though and I think the suspension remained the same so it no longer holds up, literally.

XLForum member thefrenchowl has a website (don't have the link) that has scans of an interview decades ago with Willie G. himself quoted as saying Harley build bikes with the intent that they be customized by their owners. The plan was and is for each owner to make the bike their own.

That's what I did.

:luvsport

Why be called a traitor? Just find a forum you fit in with, sure seems your unhappy here.:(

Darkstar883 must STILL be bitter about not figuring out what sounded like an intake leak. Instead he sold a very fine looking Sporty and bought a V-Max. I hope someone bought his castaway HD, properly installed some new intake gaskets and enyoys it.

Why be called a traitor? Just find a forum you fit in with, sure seems your unhappy here.:(

The Sportster is a great classic motorcycle but if by fitting in you mean a blind love and devotion to the Harley Davidson Motor Company then you're correct, I don't fit in. Based on the amount of email I receive from forum members who agree with my attitude towards the MoCo, apparently more than you think don't fit in, either.

But, I'm currently working out a deal with one of the parts folks at the local Harley boutique to trade my Wilson Combat CQB for his '77 Sportster. I don't shoot that particular 1911 and he doesn't ride the Sporty, he's riding a GSX-R750. It looks like a great bobber candidate. It's not about disliking the Sportster, I love them and nothing moves the soul like the sound of old iron. But what do I know? I bought my first new off the floor Harley at a Mom and Pop owned John Deere/Harley dealership back when the MoCo still had soul and couldn't even spell 'boutique'...

Darkstar883 must STILL be bitter about not figuring out what sounded like an intake leak. Instead he sold a very fine looking Sporty and bought a V-Max. I hope someone bought his castaway HD, properly installed some new intake gaskets and enyoys it.


Actually, last time I was at the dealer in December is was still in the service area waiting for a warranty decision... bad valve seals...

here we go again... i have noticed that there are two types of lemmings in the hd world. those that blindly buy into the hd image, and those that jump on the 'i got suckered by the crappy ________ (fillin blank)'

a harley is not a 'hollow shell', but a blank canvas on which to impart your own sense of style. look in the boutique, there are a thousand different ways to make this bike yours.
Don't get me wrong. I still love my Sportster, well, 80% percent of it. The other 20% will be when I fix/add/modify all the things required to make it ride as it should. My whole point was that something as critical as suspension should work a lot better straight out of the box.

When I look at my bike I see an awesome machine, a true classic that I will never, ever sell. I just won't be buying another one so quickly, or recommending to any friends if they're keen. I'll give it to them straight, that they will need to spend extra if they want a rideable bike and not something just to show off in their living rooms.

As in all debates there are good points for and against. I just would have preferred the dealer telling me straight - "Hey, they look and sound cool, but if you're a real biker and want to actually ride it, then you'll need to do this, that and the other." - Much better than having to find out afterwards from self-experience and places like this forum.

All the posers still wouldn't care anyway ...

I've ridden a variety of bikes over the years, mostly Honda, some BMW, and other assorted jap bikes. My 04 883 was my first HD. Compared to all the other bikes (with maybe the exception of BMW) the sporty felt solid, well built, and handled great for the type of riding I do.

I usually go the speed limit (+/- 20mph :shhhh ) stick to rural fairly well maintained roads with the occasional dirt/gravel road. With the preload set in the middle, it would bottom out occasionally, but I've had that happen in cars and on other bikes too.

I think the shocks are adequate for "normal" riding situations. If your style and preference requires a better shock, there are plenty available. The way I see it, the MoCo builds bikes with "normal" in mind. If you choose to be abnormal :D well, there's lots of accessories and parts available to make it so.

I just don't see it as HD trying to shaft the public by making the bikes the way they do. I'd rather the Sportster be affordable than be a high performance priced-out-of-my price range bike.

Seriously, if you want high performance, get a Duc. :)

I think it's funny that folks think a base model bike should come with premium suspension. Just for the record I put 04 Sportster shocks on my Honda Shadow and it handles and rides a helluva lot better. EVERY brand compromises on suspension, unless you're buying a Ducati or Aprilia. Read the magazines, almost every bike on the long term tests get suspension upgrades almost immediately. Suspension is VERY individual dependent, what works great for one person sucks ass for another. Get over it and make the bike right for you.

Suspension is VERY individual dependent, what works great for one person sucks ass for another. Get over it and make the bike right for you.

Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!:clap

[QUOTE=obiwan;601574]Dear Harley-Davidson,

You might make excellent motorcycle engines and your chrome & paintwork skills are beyond reproach. But when it comes to designing and specifying motorcycle suspension, you suck ... big time.

For what it's worth I was satisfied with my XL stock suspension.

I bought progressive shocks when I dropped the rear suspension an inch or two. I couldn't really feel much difference. I weigh 150 pounds, set the pre-load in the middle and ride one-up.

My Sportster rides like a sportster. No more, no less.

Harley is doing something right. Their bikes are selling well.

I absolutely love mine, now that I've got it exactly how I want it.


And Oh, get ready to buy a new seat too !

Who Can tell me how short a rear shock I can put on a 2006 883l My wife is 4'11" and 95 LBS I need to get a pinch lower. Have done the thiner seat but want to put some shorter shocks. What is the Ideal Shock for this Aplicaton.
As this Bike Has Only A solo Seat it will only have the 95lb rider

Who Can tell me how short a rear shock I can put on a 2006 883l My wife is 4'11" and 95 LBS I need to get a pinch lower. Have done the thiner seat but want to put some shorter shocks. What is the Ideal Shock for this Aplicaton.
As this Bike Has Only A solo Seat it will only have the 95lb rider
As far as I know the standard shocks on that bike are 11.75" long.
I know quite a few people have fitted 11" shocks. I dunno how much the ride quality suffers though.

HD obviously knows how to put good suspension on a Sportster - look at the old 1200S (and maybe the new XR1200?). I wish they had done the same for my Roadster but they didn't so I guess it's up to me. No big deal. I expected to do this mod along with the intake and exhaust mods that I've done to every bike I've ever owned. Nothing is perfect out of the box.

For anyone still fighting your handling... see this post. I have mine working near flawless and with all Harley parts. Just not the combination that came on my bike.

http://www.xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&page=3&highlight=database

AW

HD obviously knows how to put good suspension on a Sportster - look at the old 1200S (and maybe the new XR1200?). I wish they had done the same for my Roadster but they didn't so I guess it's up to me. No big deal. I expected to do this mod along with the intake and exhaust mods that I've done to every bike I've ever owned. Nothing is perfect out of the box.

They put a much better suspension on the BT than the sporty. Out of the box I had to replace the fork springs and shocks on my XL50 because they both bottomed out all the time riding two up. Short choppy bumps, long smooth dips, it didn't matter. Heck, I bottomed out a lot just riding single. I haven't bottomed out the FXDL yet. That proves they can do it, you just have to wonder why they chose the suspension they did for the sportster. I'm not talking about performance suspension either, just soak up most of the bumps without jarring the crap out of the rider.

Mine's going on 3 years old and still have to stock suspension on it. When you buy a sportster do don't buy a road sofa you buy the bike that was at one time the most vibrating, oil leaking, hard starting, easy to flood, parts falling off bike made in America. It was still and still their number 1 seller. Why? Its designed for you to make it yours in any shape form or just leave stock. HD has improved them over 100%. There are riders and they are on this forum that wouldn't have anything but an old ironhead, there are those that love their EVO's and those that love their rubber mount EVO's. Think the EVO's have room for improvement probably, but its a sportster and its an icon. Did I know what I was getting when I got mine, not really, I was expecting the oil leaks, vibrating, parts fallin off, but I have been surprised. The bike mechanically and road ability has not failed me yet. Didn't start one time and that was the stock battery dying, and that will happen with any battery. If you were thinking you bought a Rolls Royce I'm sorry, you purchased to me the only true to form HD motorcyle on the market.