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obiwan
23rd January 2007, 10:04
Apologies if this is a long post. I need some advice. I feel like I'm being handled or at least not being told the right story.
Today I phoned my dealer to book in for 1st service, SE A/C, Stage 1 remap & dyno.
All amounts have been converted to US dollars for convenience in comparing.

I spoke to service dept. first:
"How much is the service?"
"$300"
"Wow, that seems a lot! I thought you just changed the oil and tightened the spokes?"
"Oh, no. We spend more than 3 hours on it. Go right over the bike"
"OK. Can you fit an A/C and download stage 1 remap as well?"
"Sure, you'll have to order it through the parts dept."
"OK. Do you Dyno it as well?"
"No, we just road test and make sure it's alright"
"So I have to book a Dyno and that's extra?"
"Yep, I'll put you through to Parts" (The guy sounded peeved so I didn't ask the price of the Dyno)

Parts Dept:
"Yes, the SE A/C is in stock, $175 plus fitting. Were you planning on getting a download?"
"Yes, how much are they?"
"$236. But, they're not available yet. HD haven't released any. We've asked them a few times but they still haven't sent any. We can fit your bike with a SERT"
"Don't you just download them from a computer? Guys in the States and Canada have been getting them for weeks. I don't want a SERT"
"No, they haven't made any maps for Australia yet. US and Canadian bikes are different"
"What's different about them? Canadian bikes are International models as well"
"No, I believe the O2 sensors are different. What have you got against a SERT?"
"Well it's an additional cost I don't need. How much is a SERT?"
"$775 plus installation"
"Exactly. When do you expect the downloads"
"No idea"
Funny how they knew how much a remap was, even though they didn't have any!

So then I rang a Sydney Dyno shop:
"Do you guys have the Power Commanders for 07 Sportsters?"
"No, but we can get from the warehouse"
"How much all up including Dyno"
"Well the HD's are different. They're a lot of work. We do each cylinder separately, so it's twice as much work. But the difference is amazing when it's done. They really perform"
"How much?"
"We can do it all for $1145. The 07's are giving everyone a lot of grief"
"You're not wrong. OK, I'll get back to you. Thanks"
I've just checked the Power Commander website. The 2007 Sportsters are still "Coming Soon".

Australia is appearing to be the poor cousin when it comes to HD service. It's not like I can shop around a lot. I'm tempted to give them all the bird and do it all myself, with a K&N & V&H FuelPak. Or do some more research into a ThunderMax EFI unit ($399).

What's your take on all this. What would you guys do?

Thanks.

Screw Loose Dan
23rd January 2007, 13:09
Sorry to hear all your troubles. I think I wouldn't like what I was hearing either.

The first dealer is correct, the Aussie model is different then the US/Canada model. Mostly in the exhaust and gearing if memory serves me well. And I'm sure the MOCO has told them they can't install the US/CAN map, so that may not be their fault. But still sucks.

And I don't understand why they want to sell you the SERT instead of the SERF...well yes I do...$775! Yikes! You can buy a SERT online for under $400.

Is there a reason you are insistent on a dyno run? I think if I were you I would seriously be thinking about doing this myself. From what rharrison356 reported on the Race Fueler (SERF), anyone could probably do it. There's also several other products out there as well that folks have reported that are easy enough.

Moved On / My Own Choice
23rd January 2007, 13:26
I'd go the route of figuring out just what is really different.

The F#%@#% 02 sensors ARE NOT DIFFERENT, WHY THE F!@$@#$% would they be. Ok, so the mapping is different based on that data, but again, so what.

MAYBE there is a difference in mapping and/or in the mufflers. I remember Gronk saying the OZ muffs were a bit more restrictive.

So here's what I am wondering, is there any way to get a set of US spec mufflers and the download from a US spec bike?

obiwan
23rd January 2007, 13:30
The first dealer is correct, the Aussie model is different then the US/Canada model. Mostly in the exhaust and gearing if memory serves me well. And I'm sure the MOCO has told them they can't install the US/CAN map, so that may not be their fault.
Thanks. Wasn't sure if it was true or not. But if that is the case, would that be why they're recommending a SERT instead of a SERF? The fuelers (including aftermarket models like V&H) must have maps based on US models. So I may still not be able to go down that route. If the O2 sensors are different I might get incorrect readings?

The reason for a Dyno was only to prove the system was performing optimally. According to the dealer no-one with a 07 model in OZ has been able to do a full Stage 1 without a SERT or Power Commander, including BT's. Might just have to wait. Very frustrating!

obiwan
23rd January 2007, 13:39
The F#%@#% 02 sensors ARE NOT DIFFERENT, WHY THE F!@$@#$% would they be. Ok, so the mapping is different based on that data, but again, so what.

So here's what I am wondering, is there any way to get a set of US spec mufflers and the download from a US spec bike?
You mean a US 'Stock' map? I've already got V&H slip-ons (very slight lean popping). I'm thinking of getting a full set of shortshots, but I'd still have an OZ stock map and any fueler settings, based on a US stock map would be wrong. Wouldn't they?

This Stage 1 malarky is startin' to give me the irrits. :censor

Moved On / My Own Choice
23rd January 2007, 13:43
You mean a US 'Stock' map? I've already got V&H slip-ons (very slight lean popping). I'm thinking of getting a full set of shortshots, but I'd still have an OZ stock map and any fueler settings, based on a US stock map would be wrong. Wouldn't they?

This Stage 1 malarky is startin' to give me the irrits. :censor

I meant can they get the Stage I US Spec download somehow and go with US spec pipes (slipons or whatever). Sound like you already have them.

I may be in the minority here, but I don't think "very slight lean popping" is anything to worry about in the short term.

I take it you haven't opened the air nitake yet?

Do you need the extra power right away? If not, just ride it for the season and see what cheaper alternatives pop up.

It's really just a matter of time before someone has a way to hack into the OE ECM and change the maps or the price of a PCIII or something comes down.

obiwan
23rd January 2007, 13:56
Do you need the extra power right away? If not, just ride it for the season and see what cheaper alternatives pop up.

It's really just a matter of time before someone has a way to hack into the OE ECM and change the maps or the price of a PCIII or something comes down.
Yes, you're right Kev. It's just me being my normal impatient self!

I'm reading about all the great things on this forum and wanting to jump on the bandwagon. I'm not power hungry but obviously I'd like to see the bike perform to the best of it's ability.

Some pennies are starting to drop. The Dyno guy told me the Power Commander bypassed the O2 sensors, that must be how they get around the OZ mapping. The more I think about it, it's either wait or look at a Thunder-Max EFI replacement, which does away with the whole HD ECM. Think that would completely stuff any warranty claims, though!!

http://www.thunder-max.com/Default.aspx

Moved On / My Own Choice
23rd January 2007, 14:01
o2 sensors rock.

I see no reason to abandon them for PCIII or anything else.

Enjoy the @#%#% out of the bike as is for a while.

Then when you can get an HD Stage I download, it will be like a new bike all over again.

Jimbos883
23rd January 2007, 14:36
Say guys wasn't it discussed on this forum that if you do the Stage 1 the current EFI system on the bikes had enough internal adjustment for that. I think that NRHS even mentioned that there was no need for any additional components.

Or was this true for only changing either the exhaust or intake. I don't have one of the new EFI bikes so this stuff doesn't fit to well in my memory.

Sorry if I'm leading you down the wrong path.

Moved On / My Own Choice
23rd January 2007, 14:42
Say guys wasn't it discussed on this forum that if you do the Stage 1 the current EFI system on the bikes had enough internal adjustment for that. I think that NRHS even mentioned that there was not need for any additional components.

Or was this true for only changing either the exhaust or intake. I don't have one of the new EFI bikes so this stuff doesn't fit to well in my memory.

Sorry if I'm leading you down the wrong path.

NRHS opened the intake and pipes on an 883 And THAT ECM had enough adjustment for THAT bike. Others might vary, and 1200s might vary more than 883s, but it's all speculation until we know more about the maps.

HARLEY SEEMS to have stated that you can do the pipes without a remap, but that you definitely need a remap with pipes AND an A/C. This is still a point of discussion around here. At least some have stated they thought they saw where Harley said you needed a remap for JUST PIPES.

Some here feel that lean decel popping is enough to warrant a remap. I'm not one of them, as I've seen that behavior on other brand EFI bikes with stock mapping.

So I'm obviously skeptical.

K

Jimbos883
23rd January 2007, 14:49
NRHS opened the intake and pipes on an 883 And THAT ECM had enough adjustment for THAT bike. Others might vary, and 1200s might vary more than 883s, but it's all speculation until we know more about the maps.

Can anyone verify that the ECM part numbers for the 883 and 1200 are the same part number? I would assume that if they are that the MOCO has mapped them for the 1200. That could explain the reason that the 883 under Stage 1 can compensate for the changes to the intake and exhaust.

Just a thought

Moved On / My Own Choice
23rd January 2007, 14:53
Can anyone verify that the ECM part numbers for the 883 and 1200 are the same part number? I would assume that if they are that the MOCO has mapped them for the 1200. That could explain the reason that the 883 under Stage 1 can compensate for the changes to the intake and exhaust.

Just a thought

Since they are flash programmable, I'd expect them to be the same part number, but that doesn't mean they contain the same maps...

Sure they have the same cams now, and they always had the same intake/exhaust stock, but the 1200cc motor moves more air and needs more fuel.

To run the same maps on them would be almost like running the exact same jets in the carbs on them, one would be too rich or too lean if the other was just right. UNLESS their were enough maps that the 02 sensors could make that wide a swing, but I doubt it.

Screw Loose Dan
23rd January 2007, 15:13
I can confirm the ECM's are the same part numbers, Kev is correct they just flash them appropriately for engine, etc. My understanding is that the BT's even use the same ECM's.

Obiwan - Just to be clear remapping (or SERT) and putting a SERF or PowerCommander get similar results but in a different fashion. Remapping either by using SERT or the factory download actually changes the computer. The SERF and PowerCommander style units trick the computer into adding more fuel at appropriate times, but the ECM map stays the same. Does that make sense? So, I wouldn't think it would matter which map is loaded with the SERF or PowerCommander, they don't care they just dump extra fuel in (that is a over simplification).

Also, I know that the parts catalog lists the mufflers for international models as having Catalytic converters, while domestic models don't. I realize you swapped them out, but can you confirm there were Cats in them? Just curious. You may also want to tell the shop that's why you want the US/CAN map...

Lightning
24th January 2007, 03:34
$236 for a download.
$775 for a SERT.
$1145 for a Power Commander.
$399 for a ThunderMax.
$5 for a jet.

Now what was the reason I like carbs better than EFI ?

XLFREAK
24th January 2007, 03:54
What is all this shit, I almost wanted to kick myself in the ass when I got an 05 and 2 years later the efi models come out that HD said where so great. This sound like a rip off to me if I ever saw one.

Now I'm happy I have a carbed bike, and the part counter people usually just give me the jets and my dealership.

sportysrock
24th January 2007, 04:27
Obiwan,

why not get a dyno run, with exhaust metering, before and after the stage 1. If it is running lean you can stick the ham can back on. That should richen it back up until you can implement the remap or whatever. It will at least sound better.

obiwan
24th January 2007, 08:25
I emailed Vance & Hines last night enquiring about the Fuelpak.
They replied and confirmed my suspicions - the Fuelpak maps are based on US bikes and the Fuelpak WILL NOT work on International models.

So, looks like it's a waiting game until the MOCO release remaps for other countries.
I'd love to know what the differences are?
This means if you have an international model (excluding Canada) your only choice for full stage 1 is a SERT or PCIII which bypasses the O2 sensors.
If you decide on this route you will need very deep pockets.

Thanks for all the comments & suggestions.
I'm taking Kev's advice and leaving it half stock with the slip-ons.
At least it sounds like a Harley even if it doesn't perform like one!

Screw Loose Dan
24th January 2007, 12:33
Just for curiosities sake, I thumbed thru the parts catalog noting where seperate parts were listed. It's pretty easy to discern where the international parts are because they are listed separately at the bottom of the page, but I may have missed a couple. Also, I do realize this really doesn't answer your question why the map is different. :(

Entire Engine Assembly (HDI)
30T Sprocket (HDI)
Rear Sprocket Assembly (Japan)
Rear Wheel Adjusters (Japan)
Fork Lock
Rear Reflector, amber (HDI)
Front Headlamp Assembly
Muffler (Australia has different part #'s then Japan or England)
Speedometer
Turn Signals - including different bulbs, assemblies and lens (HDI)
Taillight Assembly - Lens, bulb (HDI)
Turn Signal/Security System Module (Japan)
Siren - and mounting plate (HDI)
Shift Label (Japan)

What I found interesting was that they list a separate engine assembly for international models, but I couldn't fine any specific engine parts that were listed for HDI models. Maybe it's an accounting thing instead of a real difference to the engines?

Maybe you want to call Harley directly and see what they have to say about the international maps?

Moved On / My Own Choice
24th January 2007, 14:50
$236 for a download.
$775 for a SERT.
$1145 for a Power Commander.
$399 for a ThunderMax.
$5 for a jet.

Now what was the reason I like carbs better than EFI ?

FIRST OFF the guy is in Australia, so I don't know if those are US prices or not.

Second off you DON'T F'n NEED a SRT, PC III or ThunderMax. Heck in many cases you won't even need the download.



What is all this shit, I almost wanted to kick myself in the ass when I got an 05 and 2 years later the efi models come out that HD said where so great. This sound like a rip off to me if I ever saw one.

Now I'm happy I have a carbed bike, and the part counter people usually just give me the jets and my dealership.

Glad you're happy with what you have, but you obviously don't understand the EFI system or what it means to modify it (or when you might have too).

Moved On / My Own Choice
24th January 2007, 14:52
Thanks for all the comments & suggestions.
I'm taking Kev's advice and leaving it half stock with the slip-ons.
At least it sounds like a Harley even if it doesn't perform like one!

Actually I'm sure it performs like one, granted a bit more like a stock one, but that's still not bad.

So have we figured out yet what the differences are in the international ones?

I'd love to know if it's physical (exhaust or ???) or electronic (mapping).

Cause if it's all the later, there has GOT to be a way to help out our brudda' from down Unda'

K


EDIT - ooops DRCstang looked into this already eh?


Entire Engine Assembly (HDI)
30T Sprocket (HDI)
Rear Sprocket Assembly (Japan)
Rear Wheel Adjusters (Japan)
Fork Lock
Rear Reflector, amber (HDI)
Front Headlamp Assembly
Muffler (Australia has different part #'s then Japan or England)
Speedometer
Turn Signals - including different bulbs, assemblies and lens (HDI)
Taillight Assembly - Lens, bulb (HDI)
Turn Signal/Security System Module (Japan)
Siren - and mounting plate (HDI)
Shift Label (Japan)


OK, I bolded the only things that matter. The Mufflers he's taken care of and I'm sure the sprocket can be run on bikes with US maps too. It all comes down to what they mean by Entire Engine Assembly.

But if there are no mechanical parts that you can see are different, that's just accounting BS. Doesn't mean the maps aren't different for the EFI system though.

But if true it WOULD mean that IF he got his hands on a US map he'd be fine.

XLFREAK
24th January 2007, 14:54
I'll be the first to admit I don't, from what I am understanding it is like an expensive rejet.

Moved On / My Own Choice
24th January 2007, 15:10
I'll be the first to admit I don't, from what I am understanding it is like an expensive rejet.

SURE it absolutely CAN BE.

But it doesn't have to.

In many instances (just a pair of slip ons) no reflash (rejet) is necessary.

In many instances (maybe just with 883s with BOTH air cleaners and slip ons) no reflash (rejet) may be necessary.

And, at least in the US, you should be able to get a relfash at a reasonable price. Yes that's going to cost you more than a jet at that point, but it's a one time thing.

Now give it some time, and you will eventually see a relfash available from the aftermarket, or a cheaper alternative to replace the stock ECM.

Nothing WRONG with a carb, but I like EFI for the sealed fuel system that sits better if you get caught a couple of weeks in winter, for the no-fuss cold starts, and yes, for the eventual tune-ability.

K

bishop109
24th January 2007, 16:34
Not sure if you've looked into this option but Dan at NRHS turned me on to the FI2000 from cobra as an alternative to the power commander or a remap. I haven't installed mine yet but it's supposed to be an easy 3 dial adjustment. I'm definitely looking at this option over the previous 2.

Evi|grin
25th January 2007, 01:57
With a little creative thinking there are other ways to trick a factory ECM/ECU to richen things up a bit also.

Simple mods to the TPS on some throttle bodies will slightly richen idle and off idle A/F. Rotating a modified TPS a tiny bit will very slightly increase fuel in the very low rpm ranges. (stops some decel popping and improves throttle response.)

Tricking the IAT sensor into sending a (colder air than actual temp) signal to the ECM. This is sometimes done by simply splicing a resistor inline or a potentiometer. <sp> (This will richen the A/F across the entire rpm range.)

You can also trick the ECM engine temp signal on some engines. Im not sure if the HD ECM would work well with this one. I think it gets this temp signal off the rear cylinder but im not sure. It may be from an oil temp reading.

I strongly agree with Kev on the O2 sensor removal required when using a PCIII. Thats the whole point of having EFI is the flexability of a closed loop system. My bike does not have a closed loop system with O2 sensors but a preset non adjustable factory map. A PCIII or after market closed system is my only choice.

Wide band O2 sensor systems dont even need a dyno tune EVER. They will self adjust within a few miles to almost any mods. Some limitations like throttle body/injector size/cfm and pump pressure would be factors though.

Getting a copy of HDs remapping software off a warez site might be interesting too.

These are just a few thoughts and in no way am i suggesting you do any of the above. :rolleyes:

sportin_2007
25th January 2007, 07:46
What a bunch of CRAP that is about an OZ bikes being different. Even if the exhaust had something different in it, it's gone when you add the aftermarket pipes anyways. Sounds like your dealer has a bunch of inexperienced BS artists. I'll ask my dealer what map # he used for mine and if there is any difference on an OZ bike from my CDN bike.

I'd bet lunch that their 100% the same. I'd be telling your dealer to take his dyck out of his azz when he's done trying to screw you, cause it soundslike that all their trying to accomplish, and tell them to keep their SERT and the SERF as neither has worked well on the EFI 1200 as of yet (10HP light vs my ReMap). I'll get back to you with some ReMap info soon OBI.

Evi|grin
25th January 2007, 14:52
Not sure if you've looked into this option but Dan at NRHS turned me on to the FI2000 from cobra as an alternative to the power commander or a remap. I haven't installed mine yet but it's supposed to be an easy 3 dial adjustment. I'm definitely looking at this option over the previous 2.

Any of the units based on a FI2000 or Techlusion can only add fuel to the preset map, They can NOT subtract fuel if needed but if you only need it to get rid of decel popping you leave all pots at 0 besides pot #1. The adjustment adds fuel below roughly 2500 rpms. Depends if its a 3 or 4 pot model.

sportin_2007
26th January 2007, 22:29
Hey OBI,

I got some good news for you, although your dealer might not like you telling them this. The bikes in OZ are the same as in Canada, although sometimes the exhaust is more restrictive. Bottom line is this, if you're changing your exhaust to the V&H Straightshots, and an SE A/C Kit for the EFI bike, then you can use this map number (same as used for my bike) to flash yours, and it works great. The map is Harley Part # 22718-07/DT

Give that to your dealer and ask them to just order it for you, and see what they say. If they still give you aggrevation, ask them if they even know how to download a map in an 07? Anyways, that's the map I had downloaded into mine and you already know what HP / TQ mine made. Hope this helps you. :)

obiwan
29th January 2007, 08:59
Hey Sportin'

Thanks for the info on the part# for the download. I'm speaking to my dealer this Friday. But, using that number I found some more info on the Net. Below are the configurations for - All stock, slip-ons & SE A/C, stock exhaust & SE A/C. Interesting for a couple of reasons. They don't list a download for Slip-ons only with Stock A/C, so that pretty much confirms that just changing the exhaust isn't going to do much.

What I'm curious about is the part# for the O2 sensors. I might see if I can find a number on mine. If it's identical to those listed, then my dealer is full of crap. Also interesting is your bike used a US map, there's no mention of international models. Also would be nice to know what your original stock map was so you could compare.

I think you're right. If anything, the only difference might be in the stock exhausts. (Do you know your original muffler part#'s?). I think the EPA in US would be stricter than over here and I can't see HD going to a lot of trouble to remap a bike for another country. Air is air, roads are roads - wherever you are.

Would be great if someone on the forum actually worked at HD and could set us all straight, but maybe it's intellectual property.

Cheers ...

Street Legal/Race: Street Legal
Part Nbr: 32153-07B/DT
Available On: Digital Tech
Calibration ID: 32153-07B
Description: Stock OE
Restricted Power: Unrestricted - (Full Power)
Req'd Configuration:
Region: United States of America (Remaining 49 States)
Model Year: 2007
Platform: Sportster
Model: XL1200C, XL1200R, XL50
Exhaust System: Original Equipment (Legal)
ECM/ICM: 32140-07,32534-05B
Cylinder Heads: Original Equipment
Engine Displacement (cc): 1200
Fuel Injectors: 07 XL Injector (27706-07)
Air Cleaner: Original Equipment
Throttle Body/Induction
Module: Original Equipment
Cam Shaft: Original Equipment
Pistons: Original Equipment
O2 Sensor: 27719-07

Street Legal/Race: Street Legal
Part Nbr: 22718-07/DT
Available On: Digital Tech
Calibration ID: 22718-07
Description: Stage 1 Legal
Restricted Power: Unrestricted - (Full Power)
Req'd Configuration:
Region: United States of America (Remaining 49 States)
Model Year: 2007
Platform: Sportster
Model: XL1200C, XL1200R, XL1200L, XL50
Exhaust System: H-D Slip-On & SE Street Performance (Legal)
ECM/ICM: 32140-07,32534-05B
Cylinder Heads: Original Equipment
Engine Displacement (cc): 1200
Fuel Injectors: 07 XL Injector (27706-07)
Air Cleaner: SE High Flow
Throttle Body/Induction
Module: Original Equipment
Cam Shaft: Original Equipment
Pistons: Original Equipment
O2 Sensor: 27719-07

Street Legal/Race: Street Legal
Part Nbr: 22718-07/DT
Available On: Digital Tech
Calibration ID: 22718-07
Description: Stage 1 Legal
Restricted Power: Unrestricted - (Full Power)
Req'd Configuration:
Region: United States of America (Remaining 49 States)
Model Year: 2007
Platform: Sportster
Model: XL1200C, XL1200R, XL1200L, XL50
Exhaust System: Original Equipment (Legal)
ECM/ICM: 32140-07,32534-05B
Cylinder Heads: Original Equipment
Engine Displacement (cc): 1200
Fuel Injectors: 07 XL Injector (27706-07)
Air Cleaner: SE High Flow
Throttle Body/Induction
Module: Original Equipment
Cam Shaft: Original Equipment
Pistons: Original Equipment
O2 Sensor: 27719-07