Over penetration a myth?

[flameryder]

I was reading a report by Patrick Ureys, formerly of the FBI. He states that over penetration is a myth. He says that there has never been any incident where a bullet fired by any police or FBI has ever over penetrated a BG and harmed an innocent bystander. He also states that if a bullet was to over penetrate, it would not have enough energy left to harm anyone. He says that over penetration has never been a concern of police or FBI, just the opposite . He says the deeper the penetration the better, the problem is getting a bullet to expand to the largest size possible, to do the most damage, and still continue to penetrate deep enough to cut through vital organs, after expanding. He says there is no record of any report ever filed where a bullet over penetrated by police or FBI and harmed an innocent bystander, nor has there ever been a lawsuit filed by any civilian claiming to have been harmed in said manner.
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I can predict the future...GOD wins.

[K3MF]

I guess that depends what you are shooting.......I know for a fact you can drop two deer with one bullet from a .30-06 at 70 yards if they are lined up right....pistol caliber.....I would say no unless a FMJ at 10 feet.

[jharback]

I would have to agree with K3MF, that it may be true with a pistol. I have seen one bullet appear take more than one individual down in combat more than once.

[Weo]

I think there's a couple differences though. Military strictly uses FMJ. LE and FBI can use hollowpoints. I've heard of military issues with the shorter M4 carbines not having sufficient velocity to fragment on combatants, but haven't heard of it being an issue with LE non-FMJ bullets.

Then there's the rifle versus pistol thing. Shoot a FMJ out of a 30-06 and it basically explodes after a couple feet of water. Try the same thing with a pistol caliber FMJ and it generally stays in one peice (maybe not the magnums). So there's different forces that come into play with high velocity rifle rounds versus slower pistol rounds.

Then there's hunting rounds versus defense/anti-personell rounds. Deer and larger animals generally require bullet designs that offer greater penetration compared to home defense/anti personnel designs.

I'm no expert, so I'll state that these observations are solely academic.

[dre986]

I have to agree with everyone here on this one. I gaurentee you that the FBI and other depts. don't take the chance on ever penetration either.
Let's not forget that law enfrcement doens't only use pistols but rifles as well. The two biggest calibers they use for sniping are 308 and 30.06. Then there is the .223 that gets used in the assault rifles. Sometimes they are used up close and personal. You need to be careful with over penetration.
Like K3MF said two deer one shot. True the round going through will lose a lot of velocity but don't take the chance on hitting someone or something else for that matter. Of course FMJ and JHP are different from one another.

[ed_in_az]

An example of over penetration by a police bullet happened in our town.

A drunk with an attitude and a revolver was raging in the street and the cops were called. A lone oficer arrived and was trying to calm the guy. The drunks teenage son meanwhile was behind him trying to pull him back.

When the cop saw the guy pull the hammer back on the revolver he fired. The bullet passed through the dad, who survived, and killed his son behind him.

The cop was devastated, but over time he was able to recover and is still on the force.

[gemeinschaft]

I would have to agree with K3MF, that it may be true with a pistol. I have seen one bullet appear take more than one individual down in combat more than once.

I think another over-penetration issue that needs to be taken into account is how many walls will your round pass through?

When doing an entry on an occupied building, if the Police get into a shooting in a hallway, they don't want rounds exiting the hallway and entering adjacent rooms if there are innocent bystanders.

I know personally, I have seen rifle rounds pass through a target and enter another target.

My brother made a Homicide scene where there was a 9mm FMJ embedded in the wall behind the victim; it was determined that it was the bullet that had passed through the subject.

Whether or not you can find cases where a Law Enforcement agency has claimed responsibility for an innocent bystander getting ventilated is, in my opinion, not all that important.

When planning for the defense of my apartment, I am mindful of my neighbors. For this reason, I would not load with 12ga Slugs, but rather #4 Tac Load from Federal. I know it does the job but won't pass into my neighbor's apartment.

[flameryder]

The article concerned hand guns.

______________________________
The United States of America is the greatest nation in the world! Now help me change it!!
- President Obama

[mjbogrand]

I was reading a report by Patrick Ureys, formerly of the FBI. He states that over penetration is a myth. He says that there has never been any incident where a bullet fired by any police or FBI has ever over penetrated a BG and harmed an innocent bystander. He also states that if a bullet was to over penetrate, it would not have enough energy left to harm anyone. He says that over penetration has never been a concern of police or FBI, just the opposite . He says the deeper the penetration the better, the problem is getting a bullet to expand to the largest size possible, to do the most damage, and still continue to penetrate deep enough to cut through vital organs, after expanding. He says there is no record of any report ever filed where a bullet over penetrated by police or FBI and harmed an innocent bystander, nor has there ever been a lawsuit filed by any civilian claiming to have been harmed in said manner.
_______________________________
I can predict the future...GOD wins.

I'll say it like it is,
Bull Sh!t.No myth at all. A 44 mag WILL go thru a person and still have enough energy to kill a second person.

Yes at a closer range,but it does have enough energy.
A 12 ga slug,10mm,9mm,357mag,#00buck,and a few others

I would guess this was an article for spin.Damage control type BS
BullSh!t.

Believe this and KILL your neighbor.

[flameryder]

Hand guns....38-357-45 etc. These were police /FBI shootings. They don't carry 44 mag. Again, handguns, not shotguns.

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Eternity is too long to be wrong.

[mjbogrand]

Hand guns....38-357-45 etc. These were police /FBI shootings. They don't carry 44 mag. Again, handguns, not shotguns.

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Eternity is too long to be wrong.

I've got those in there.A 10mm,9mm,357mag ARE handguns.
Very general statement there.
IF you are ONLY talking about what they are carrying now,then there still is no "myth",because there never was anything started about "over penetration" with a .40 S&W

If or when they carried 357's or 9's,maybe the FBI never had any incidents,but that doesn't make it a "myth".
LOTS of other people have carried other guns and calibers that do over penetrate.

BTW your OP doesn't specify guns or calibers.44 mag not being just a riffle caliber either.And I don't believe the FBI were issued .45 ACP any time these kind of tests were conducted.

[flameryder]

I've got those in there.A 10mm,9mm,357mag ARE handguns.
Very general statement there.
IF you are ONLY talking about what they are carrying now,then there still is no "myth",because there never was anything started about "over penetration" with a .40 S&W

If or when they carried 357's or 9's,maybe the FBI never had any incidents,but that doesn't make it a "myth".
LOTS of other people have carried other guns and calibers that do over penetrate.

BTW your OP doesn't specify guns or calibers.44 mag not being just a riffle caliber either.And I don't believe the FBI were issued .45 ACP any time these kind of tests were conducted.

The man is saying that there is no record of an FBI or police shooting where any bullet of any caliber gun issued to the FBI or the police has ever over penetrated a BG and harmed any civilian, (hand gun)neither has there ever been a law suit filled by any civilian ever being injured or harmed from such an experience, EVER. GOOGLE Patrick Ureys- FBI, do you're own search, if you think it's BS, fine, I'm just sharing what I read.

[milmat1]

QUESTION??

Have you ever seen what a Bullet does to a Human body as it passes through?

I say yes it is a Threat, I would not want to be standing behind someone shot with any of todays high performance ammo.

It depends greatly on where the bullet hits and the angle etc. But it certainly possible. With that said, Law enforcement is trained to NOT fire unless they have a good target so they are generaly going to hit center mass of the body. So the FBI guy may be correct, But he is only talking from his experiance too...

P.S. When I first seen the title My mind went straight to the gutter....LOL

[mjbogrand]

I'm not wronging you Flame,but his report.
Nothing against you at all.
And we know that ANYONE can make ANYTHING sound as they wish.You just have to pay the right people to do the tests.

I can't believe that every shot the FBI has taken has hit a target perfect enough to not go thru someone's side or JUST soft tissue and hit someone else.(maybe they shoot them too,no witnesses?)

NO group of shooters is that good.Now maybe they have always used sub sonic rounds that merely bruise the perp and don't penetrate at all.

[gemeinschaft]

I did find it interesting that the article mentioned the accuracy statistics of real shoots... That definitely brings up a good point.

Having been there, I will admit... Nothing goes as planned in a shootout, if it had gone as planned, bullets would not be passing back and forth.

I do think that weapons proficiency is something that should be stressed more by departments. Too frequently, I hear of departments/agencies only requiring their officers/agents to pass the minimal requirements to carry a firearm.

Instead of making officers sit through a "Transgendered Issues Sensitivity class," why not put some investment into keeping officers alive?

I know the answer. It is cheaper for a department/agency to lose an officer/agent than to get sued by John Q. Public.

I would love to hear that the officers in my city were all trained by Clint Smith or Gabe Suarez; but it will never happen.

Back to the over-penetration question; Yes, pistol rounds will over-penetrate and continue moving until they meet enough force to stop.

I personally saw a guy pass a round through his thigh, exit his leg and then re-enter his foot and exit into the ground - 230gr .45acp SWC

Does that count?

Bullets do weird things in the real world and I have seen some strange things that defy the imagination.

[flameryder]

I'm not wronging you Flame,but his report.
Nothing against you at all.
And we know that ANYONE can make ANYTHING sound as they wish.You just have to pay the right people to do the tests.

I can't believe that every shot the FBI has taken has hit a target perfect enough to not go thru someone's side or JUST soft tissue and hit someone else.(maybe they shoot them too,no witnesses?)

NO group of shooters is that good.Now maybe they have always used sub sonic rounds that merely bruise the perp and don't penetrate at all.

No offense taken. I simply found the article interesting and wanted to share it. I find it hard to believe too. I wouldn't take the chance either, especially with today's high performance ammo, ball rounds OR hollow point.

[Weo]

I'm not wronging you Flame,but his report.
Nothing against you at all.
And we know that ANYONE can make ANYTHING sound as they wish.You just have to pay the right people to do the tests.

I can't believe that every shot the FBI has taken has hit a target perfect enough to not go thru someone's side or JUST soft tissue and hit someone else.(maybe they shoot them too,no witnesses?)

NO group of shooters is that good.Now maybe they have always used sub sonic rounds that merely bruise the perp and don't penetrate at all.

I didn't read the article, but the FBI used the .357 Magnum during Hoover's time and a higer powered .38 cartridge for those that couldn't handle it. During that time LE's started to get interested in penetating car doors and doing significant damage afterwards. Ever see the Bonnie and Clyde car? They used 30-06.

When the Tommy Guns first came out (.45 ACP), they tried to market it by showing LE demonstations of it demolishing a car.

[flameryder]

I didn't read the article, but the FBI used the .357 Magnum during Hoover's time and a higer powered .38 cartridge for those that couldn't handle it. During that time LE's started to get interested in penetating car doors and doing significant damage afterwards. Ever see the Bonnie and Clyde car? They used 30-06.

When the Tommy Guns first came out (.45 ACP), they tried to market it by showing LE demonstations of it demolishing a car.

I've heard that the only .38 spl. cartridge still loaded today to the original high power you mention in the 20's is the Sellier & Bellot 158 gr.-10,25g

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Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.

[mjbogrand]

I've heard that the only .38 spl. cartridge still loaded today to the original high power you mention in the 20's is the Sellier & Bellot 158 gr.-10,25g

_____________________________
Elevators smell different to midgets.

Probably for cowboy shoots.
I heard the NYPD LOEs didn't like how the 38's bounced off the windshields.They were one of the last ones to get away from the 38 revolver.

SIX rounds against the bad guys with the 'new' highcap 9's
And I do believe Elmer Keith did develop the 357 for the FBI.Those 38's were lame.Back then the bad guys had the good guns too

[Route666]

The man from the original article is obviously telling the truth, he is from the .GOV afterall. The FEDS would never lie to the American people. "I'm here from the U.S. Government. I'm here to help".:eek:



Love my country, HATE my government

[wandrur]

Hey, Route666. I see you're pretty new here, so welcome.

I wanted to mention, though, that this thread has kept on topic pretty effectively, but bringing political :censor into it isn't going to help the conversation, nor will it keep this thread in the 'Gun Talk' section where it really belongs; rather, it will get moved to 'Politics & Religion' where such political conversations should occur. So how about keeping the politics at a minimum and keeping with the topic? Thanks. And I was serious about the welcome--always great to get more of us here. :smoke

[ed_in_az]

The man from the original article is obviously telling the truth, he is from the .GOV afterall. The FEDS would never lie to the American people. "I'm here from the U.S. Government. I'm here to help".:eek:



Love my country, HATE my government

Ya, we can't mention the whys about some of our gun issues in the gun forum.

Join the forums politics & religion section and post anything that relates over there. You'll get pounced on (ask me how I know?), but you can tell it like it is over there, and some of us gun owners show up over there too.

and Welcome:clap

[Route666]

Okay, check. Posts in proper places. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Tom in Ohio]

Sorry to jump in late, but wanted to share my 2 cents.

I'm a LEO and a firearms instructor, so the issue is near and dear to me. While I don't believe that over-penetration is a myth, I do believe that it gets too much attention - mainly from liability fearing administrators. The real threat is the rounds that miss their target completely or fail when they do hit their intended target.

Overpenetration resulting in a secondary hit on an innocent is a highly improbable, though possible, event. Missing multiple times in a gunfight is, statistically, a guarantee.

The greatest way to reduce the risk of innocents getting hit in a gunfight is not ammo selection, but training. I think some forget this.

BTW - For home defense, if you are concerned about overpenetration, you're best bet is a 5.56mm carbine loaded with some type of hollow point or soft point ammo. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but its the truth. Heavy, lower velocity projectiles will penetrate better through intermediate barriers than lighter, higher velocity projectiles.