Rear Shock Question On XL1200N

[LilHog59]

Can anyone please tell me the rear shock length on the stock nightster. I am measuring 11" even center to center on the bike. Is this the proper way to measure? Or do I need to remove them from the bike and then measure. I want to order the progressive suspension 412's in black, but I want to make sure I order the correct product. I don't want to raise or lower the bike, just a better ride is what im after.

[Moker]

alas!

i don't have the answer, but these guys do
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/

i ordered my black 412's from them and am very happy with the results!
give them a call, they'll be happy to help you out.

[Folkie]

Let us know what you find out, will you?

[LilHog59]

Thanks for the info, I'll call on Monday morning when they open and place an order if they can answer my questions. I want the 412's standard rate in black and im guessing it's 11" length.

[dynamos2000]

its just like you measured.. 11" eye to eye. My nightster is now 12.5 eye to eye (progressive 412's)

[Mean Gene]

Thanks for the info, I'll call on Monday morning when they open and place an order if they can answer my questions. I want the 412's standard rate in black and im guessing it's 11" length.

Please post when you find out, cuz I'm having the same problem. I want to replace the shocks on the 1200N with 11" cuz that's what it measures on the bike. But, do they measure longer off the bike? If so, then if you order 11" shocks, will they be slightly shorter than 11" on the bike? I've been asking my dealer this, but they seem unable to give me an answer, cuz they say they don't have any laying around in stock to measure.

[Folkie]

I've got 11" 440s on my bike, and they measure 11" on the bike. If your shocks measure 11" on the bike, and you want the same ride height, 11" is what you want.

[Mean Gene]

I've got 11" 440s on my bike, and they measure 11" on the bike. If your shocks measure 11" on the bike, and you want the same ride height, 11" is what you want.

Thanks. 440s are what I wanted, but I was told that the IAS system doesn't work well below 12". And I think Progressive has a chart that shows the lowest they recommend on the Sportster is 11.5". How do you like yours...do they work as well as you expected?

[dynamos2000]

for what its worth my 12.5's look perfect on the bike as far as making it look "standard", i.e. pretty even... If you do 11-12", you should still have that lowered in the back look

[vmaxx4]

I'm not a big guy and one of the main reasons I put money down on a Niightster is because of the low seat height. I've only seen pictures (on this site) of Nightsters with 12" and 12.5" shocks, and from what I know so far , I would put 11.5" progressives on to keep the low seat height and get a better ride.

[Mean Gene]

for what its worth my 12.5's look perfect on the bike as far as making it look "standard", i.e. pretty even... If you do 11-12", you should still have that lowered in the back look

Thanks, but the last thing I want to do is make it look even. I want it slammed as much as I can...put on forward controls, apes and make it into a true bobber. If you want it raised, why get a Nightster? For the blacked-out look? Then why not a 1200R instead?

[dynamos2000]

I like the look of the nightster.. I just happen to also like curves and secondary roads :) Plus its a really sh*&ty ride bone stock IMO
..Plus I wanted the grey,not the black... When did I say I wanted blacked out? plus adding forward controls and apes (yek! lol) ..well its not gonna look like a nightster so why did YOU get one? lol

She still looks good :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39VSWxaCyJA

http://web.mac.com/alanwhite123/iWeb/Main%20Site/PA%20-%20Bike%20Photos%200407_files/P4010012.jpg

[Screw Loose Dan]

put on forward controls, apes and make it into a true bobber.

Your's and mine definitions must vary on what a bobber is if apes and forward is what it takes to make your 07 Nightster into a "true" bobber...but either way glad to see everyone making them their own.

[LilHog59]

I just found a set of 412's in black 11" brand new on e-bay for $199. I bought them and they should be here by Tuesday. The seller has 9 more sets all brand new if anyone is interested, they also have many other sizes in black.

[Folkie]

Thanks. 440s are what I wanted, but I was told that the IAS system doesn't work well below 12". And I think Progressive has a chart that shows the lowest they recommend on the Sportster is 11.5". How do you like yours...do they work as well as you expected?
I had 11" 412s before I had the 440s, and the ride was very rough and harsh. You've got to expect it to be firm if you have 11" shocks on a Sportster, but this was worse than that. I coudn't feel the shocks working at all. I could feel every bump and ridge in the road though! Some places where they'd repaired the road there'd be a small bump right across the road, so you couldn't avoid it. In the car you didn't really notice it at all, but on the bike with the 11" 412s it was a painful jarring bump, so bad that I'd try to lift my weight off the seat by pulling on the handlebars to lift myself up a bit; not easy with forward controls.

I switched to 11" 440s, and there was a big difference. I could actually feel the shocks moving and working as I rode along. And those bumps? I can still feel them, but no longer with the fierce jarring and jolting. Is that the IAS system working, or just the result of having a better shock? I don't know, all I know is that for me they're a dramatic improvement, and (IMO) worth the cost. I'd buy them again without a moment's hesitation.

I know some people who've bought them don't like them, or at least they haven't lived up to their expectations, and they don't think they're worth the cost. I know some have said that the IAS system doesn't work in so short a shock. I don't know about that, all I can say is what my experience of them is, and I like them!

I also found after I replaced the stock Dunlops with Metzeler ME880s, that they smooth out the road a bit more too.

Progressive's chart shows 412s and 440s down to 11". What it doesn't show is 11" 418s; this is because they don't make an 11" 418.

[Folkie]

I should say that to get my 440s as good as they are now, I had to play around with the preload quite a bit, trying different settings. And it's infinitely adjustable, so you can (eventually) get it just right. I ended up with 4 turns down out of a maximum (if I remember right) of 6 2/3 turns. It took a few days and a few rides to work and back (3, I think) to get it set where I felt it was best. And you don't need to carry a spanner to adjust them.

[LilHog59]

How about the front fork springs, what can be done to improve them? Does progressive sell a kit for the Nightster?

[kenfm2000]

The stock shocks I took off mine measure 11-1/8". If you could stand the extra 3/8" overall length the 11.5" 418's or 412's would give you 1/2" more travel and probably only make 1/4" difference of seat height than the stock. I went the 12" 418's and like the height.

As far as the fork springs go the 2007 nightsters and 883 low use a different spring setup than the rest of the sportsers. The springs are much shorter. I think it may because of the short travel. I did buy the standard spring kit. But at this point I think it may be too long. I have yet to pull the caps to see what the actual maximum length of the spring could be.I have an email into progressive to see what the length of the spring is in the lowered kit. Hopefully I will have more info on the fork springs in the next few days.

[ed_in_az]

I'll bet you would get an improved ride even with the stock short length Progressive springs in the forks. Since they are progressively wound they get stiffer the farther into their movement you go. This helps reduce diving while braking and prevent bottoming. I'd still switch to Progressive springs even if you keep the stock 1200N length.

I've left my bike on the stiff side of adjustment, front and back and I love it cause I can hit anything, even 2up with my wife, plus it is only limited by tires in the dirt, not suspension. Progressive Suspension products make great upgrades front and back.

[Folkie]

If you could stand the extra 3/8" overall length the 11.5" 418's or 412's would give you 1/2" more travel and probably only make 1/4" difference of seat height than the stock.
If you put a 3/8" longer shock on you're going to have a 3/8" higher seat.

[Gary7]

If you put a 3/8" longer shock on you're going to have a 3/8" higher seat.

I don't think so. The lever ratio on the XL isn't 1:1. I put 12" Progressives on my std XL, which are 1.25" shorter than stock shocks, and it lowered my seat a little over 1.5".

[kenfm2000]

You would think so but it is not lifting straight up. It's not a 45 degree angle either. Think back to basic geometry when you add another inch at an angle to a triangle the vertical line does not increase an inch.

[Mean Gene]

Your's and mine definitions must vary on what a bobber is if apes and forward is what it takes to make your 07 Nightster into a "true" bobber...but either way glad to see everyone making them their own.

OK, excuse me...ONE type of bobber. It's not possible for me to have mid controls, so that's MY type of bobber.

[Mean Gene]

I should say that to get my 440s as good as they are now, I had to play around with the preload quite a bit, trying different settings. And it's infinitely adjustable, so you can (eventually) get it just right. I ended up with 4 turns down out of a maximum (if I remember right) of 6 2/3 turns. It took a few days and a few rides to work and back (3, I think) to get it set where I felt it was best. And you don't need to carry a spanner to adjust them.

Thanks, seems like 440s for me. If you don't mind, can you tell me how much you weigh to give me an idea where I sit? I'm only 160#.

[Folkie]

I don't think so. The lever ratio on the XL isn't 1:1. I put 12" Progressives on my std XL, which are 1.25" shorter than stock shocks, and it lowered my seat a little over 1.5".
No it isn't, it's about 4:3. Ie: if you shorten the shock by 3/4" it lowers the back of the bike (a point directly over the axle) by about 1". But the seat isn't directly over the axle, it's about 1/4 of the way from the rear axle to the front axle. So the seat is lowered by only 3/4 of the amount, ie: 3/4".

OK, it might be a bit out either way, but my point is that kenfm200 was saying that lengthening the shock 3/8" would raise the seat by only 1/4". You're saying that the change in seat height is more than the change in the shock length. I think it's about the same, or maybe the change in seat height is a bit more (I don't think it's 20% more though).

[Gary7]

No it isn't, it's about 4:3. Ie: if you shorten the shock by 3/4" it lowers the back of the bike (a point directly over the axle) by about 1". But the seat isn't directly over the axle, it's about 1/4 of the way from the rear axle to the front axle. So the seat is lowered by only 3/4 of the amount, ie: 3/4".

OK, it might be a bit out either way, but my point is that kenfm200 was saying that lengthening the shock 3/8" would raise the seat by only 1/4". You're saying that the change in seat height is more than the change in the shock length. I think it's about the same, or maybe the change in seat height is a bit more (I don't think it's 20% more though).

You're right. I didn't measure the change in height at the seat, I measured it from the fender to the belt guard:

Before:
http://www.oysterquartz.net/Shocks/001.jpg

After:
http://www.oysterquartz.net/Shocks/010.jpg

[LilHog59]

I'll bet you would get an improved ride even with the stock short length Progressive springs in the forks. Since they are progressively wound they get stiffer the farther into their movement you go. This helps reduce diving while braking and prevent bottoming. I'd still switch to Progressive springs even if you keep the stock 1200N length.

I've left my bike on the stiff side of adjustment, front and back and I love it cause I can hit anything, even 2up with my wife, plus it is only limited by tires in the dirt, not suspension. Progressive Suspension products make great upgrades front and back.

I really want to keep the spring and shock length the same. I am a shorter rider and this is the first bike that actually fits me like a glove out of the many other bigger bikes that I have owned. I figure that an upgrade in the same length of suspension with progressive will be an improvement over stock, the rest I will have to live with. I will contact progressive and inquire about the front springs and see what they say.

[Mean Gene]

How about the front fork springs, what can be done to improve them? Does progressive sell a kit for the Nightster?

If I'm to believe the literature...everything in the Press and what Harley says, since the 1200N has the same fork set-up as the 883L, then you already have progressive springs. They're Harley's version called "Profile." The same springs that they use in their "Profile" lowering kit and most likely made by Progressive. So, the best thing you can do IMO is to ad Gold Valve Emulators. Those alone are great, but combined with progressive springs even better. I have the Gold Valves in my Heritage and even the H-D techs are amazed at how well it rides compared to other customers' bikes'.

http://www.racetech.com/shopping/shopdisplaysubcat.asp?id=17&cat=&Hsubcat=8&level=3&subcat=8&L2=Forks&showPage=harley

BTW, you'll see that Race Tech also has their brand of progressive springs. But as I said, the 1200N already has them...at least that's what H-D said. But, go ahead, I'm sure Progressive will be glad to sell you another set. In any case, you don't have to lower the suspension, progressively wound fork springs are available stock height, 1" and 2" lower. just remember stock height on the 1200N is already lower.

[kenfm2000]

Folkie,
I am having a hard time figuring that out. I wish I had measured the before but right now unladen my seaght is 26-7/8" with 12" shocks. I put 12" 418's on it. If the before matched the hd spec of 26.3 unladen and now the seat height is 26.875" then by increasing the shock length by 7/8" i increased my seat height .575" well I guess my measurement could be wrong or mine may have been lower than 26.3" unladen and you may be right. hmmm
Lilhog59 or mean gene could you try to get an accurate before and after seat height even if it is to prove me wrong?

[Folkie]

kenfm200, I don't doubt that you measured accurately, but the problem could be with the H-D specs, some of which seem rather dubious (though I wouldn't expect them to err on the high side with a seat height :D). An example: the seat heights for the '07 Customs and the 1200L: are all given as 28"; that can't be right, surely? Also, is a 12" 418 actually 12"?

[vmaxx4]

I really want to keep the spring and shock length the same. I am a shorter rider and this is the first bike that actually fits me like a glove out of the many other bigger bikes that I have owned. I figure that an upgrade in the same length of suspension with progressive will be an improvement over stock, the rest I will have to live with.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. Please keep us informed on what you end up with and how it works.

[Folkie]

Thanks, seems like 440s for me. If you don't mind, can you tell me how much you weigh to give me an idea where I sit? I'm only 160#.
I'm about 225 right now (damn, I was 214 a few weeks ago). It's the standard duty shocks I've got. There was someone who posted about the 440s a little while ago, who was about your weight (if I remember right), and said that they didn't work well for someone of that weight. If you do a search you should find it.

[whittlebeast]

this thread has lots of info on the subject

http://www.xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=database

AW

[kenfm2000]

kenfm200, I don't doubt that you measured accurately, but the problem could be with the H-D specs, some of which seem rather dubious (though I wouldn't expect them to err on the high side with a seat height :D). An example: the seat heights for the '07 Customs and the 1200L: are all given as 28"; that can't be right, surely? Also, is a 12" 418 actually 12"?

The 418's were 12" center to center before putting them on the bike. With sag they are 11-7/8" the original were 11" on the bike and 11-1/8" off the bike so they both have about 1/8" sag with no rider on the bike. When I am sitting on the bike I guess i really don't notice any difference than before when sitting at a stop light but maybe the 418's sag a little more under my weight.

The other thing that I did not check before was belt tension. After I changed the shocks following the procedure listed in the service manual I had a little over 3/4" on the belt. I don't know how that is affected but I thought the belt would get tighter if I increased the shock length.

[whittlebeast]

kenfm2000

What is the sag with you on the bike?

AW

[kenfm2000]

I need to measure that still. I think at the current preload of the second notch versus the 4th notch of the stock shock I am getting more sag so the actual seat height with me on it is probably real close to stock height. I will try to have someone measure it when I am on the bike.

[kenfm2000]

Important information for everyone with 883L, 1200L, 1200N

For all of you with those models who are changing out your fork springs for progressive springs...you've already got them. Click below:

http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444876735 6&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374309148251&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374309148251&bmUID=1175489355074&bmLocale=en_US

Note that it says, "while preserving ride quality." These are not just lowering springs. They are referring to the H-D "Profile" springs which are progressively wound. You can see how they're progressively wound in the picture.

Might want to make this a "sticky."

Gene


.

While it is true about the 06 883low it is not about the 07 883 low or the 1200N they have a completely new spring. I have a picture of the breakdown in the service manual. I don't know if the breakdown is to scale but from the picture, although it is a drawing not an actual picture the springs are not progressively wound and they appear to only be about 10-12" in length. I can send you an email with the page of the breakdown if you PM me with your email address.

[Mean Gene]

While it is true about the 06 883low it is not about the 07 883 low or the 1200N they have a completely new spring. I have a picture of the breakdown in the service manual. I don't know if the breakdown is to scale but from the picture, although it is a drawing not an actual picture the springs are not progressively wound and they appear to only be about 10-12" in length. I can send you an email with the page of the breakdown if you PM me with your email address.

OK, I deleted that post, although it is true for 1200L. I thought they were saying it's the same on the 1200N and 883L.

[Mean Gene]

the 07 883 low or the 1200N they have a completely new spring.

Man, that sucks. Why'd they do that? So, can't you take springs for a '06 883L and put them in the '07 883L and 1200N?

They're always screwin' around changing things. And my metric/Japanese proponents say Harley never changes. LOL

[kenfm2000]

Man, that sucks. Why'd they do that? So, can't you take springs for a '06 883L and put them in the '07 883L and 1200N?

They're always screwin' around changing things. And my metric/Japanese proponents say Harley never changes. LOL

As soon as one of us pulls the cap off and measures the springs and spacer we may know. The standard progressive spring is about 18-1/2" long I am hoping the spring and spacer are (edit) "more" than that.

I am more concerned about the bottoming right now. I might just pull the caps and see if I can put a 1/2"-3/4" spacer to give the forks a little more preload. I figured I may still have to give the standard progressives a little extra preload if they fit.

[Johnny Wolf]

Can anyone please tell me the rear shock length on the stock nightster. I am measuring 11" even center to center on the bike. Is this the proper way to measure? Or do I need to remove them from the bike and then measure. I want to order the progressive suspension 412's in black, but I want to make sure I order the correct product. I don't want to raise or lower the bike, just a better ride is what im after.

My Dad has the Progressive 11" 440's they don't move that much, as people have stated 11.5" -12" 412/440's will probably be better for ya'.

[Folkie]

My Dad has the Progressive 11" 440's they don't move that much, as people have stated 11.5" -12" 412/440's will probably be better for ya'.
Oh undoubtedly 11.5" or 12" shocks will give you a better ride. Of course if you need the bike to be 11" low …

[Notabiker]

I plan to change my shocks as the stocks are bit too much for my tender kidney's. I have felt every bump and their are lots of 'em here in the Northeast. I don't care so much about the height as I do about the ride. Do you think I should go with 412s or 418s planning on 11.5? Just to raise it a tiny bit. Another question, if I raise the rear shocks do I HAVE to do anything to the front??? Yes, I am inexperienced!

[Mean Gene]

I plan to change my shocks as the stocks are bit too much for my tender kidney's. I have felt every bump and their are lots of 'em here in the Northeast. I don't care so much about the height as I do about the ride. Do you think I should go with 412s or 418s planning on 11.5? Just to raise it a tiny bit. Another question, if I raise the rear shocks do I HAVE to do anything to the front??? Yes, I am inexperienced!

The front and rear were lowered (in tandem) to keep (match) the geometry. It's less critical if the back is lower than the front. But, if you raise the rear, throwing the geometry off, having the front lower than the rear, can be hazardous to your health. H-D warns against this. Maybe, 1/2" might not matter to much, but I certainly wouldn't go more than that without adjusting the front. Personally, I wouldn't do it. If you feel the 11" may be bottoming, then get good shocks like the ones you mentioned (11") and set the preload for a rider weighing 10# more than you. If you do go with 11.5", then you might be able to set the pre-loaod soft enough to equal out the geometry when you sit on it to almost where your 11" were and still not bottom out, simply cuz they're better shocks. Have you tried adjusting your stock shocks? There are little notches on the bottom collar. They usually come from the factory set on the second to largest notch. There are about three more smaller notches. Try setting your shocks on one of the other notches first. That may be all you need. You'll have to have your Harley tech do it. It requires a tool and is a bitch to turn. If your problem is just too harsh a ride and bottoming is not the issue, then try setting your shocks to the softer setting. If you bottom out after that, then get a good set of shocks, ie: Progressive or Works.