PDA

View Full Version : SE Aircleaner to SE Heavy Breather?


johnwestphal
24th July 2009, 07:36
I was wondering if anybody has gone from the Screamin' Eagle (SE) aircleaner to the SE Heavy Breather on a 04-06 (carb) and what increase in performance they experienced? My '04 has the SE II mufflers bigger CV carb/intake, ignition and cams (all SE). I was wondering if the gain in hp/tq was noticeable as well as opinions on improved knee clearance (forward controls) vs the ham can AC. Thanks!!!

clarencebyrdxl
24th July 2009, 08:49
Did this to my 07 Roadster, any performance gain or loss was not noticeable to me, with this change only. What was nice was the increased knee and leg room, no longer hitting the breather with my knee. I don't know about leg room with forwards, as i have mids, but my friend, who has forwards, has tried mine and says its an improvement. Hope this helps.

Folkie
24th July 2009, 10:00
You're not likely to see an increase in performance since the SE a/c already supplies enough air to the motor.

tjduexjr
24th July 2009, 14:11
I put an SE Heavy Breather on my 1200C this spring (forward controls). Leg and knee room are much better. No more resting my knee on the air cleaner any more.

Can't comment on the performance differences you're looking for as I replaced the stock air cleaner.

nodak
30th July 2009, 21:43
i replaced the se ac with the heavy breather. i didnt notice any improved performance. the knee room DID make a big difference and i like the looks alot better also. i have an 07 custom so i have the forward controls

JoeFriday77
14th August 2009, 17:51
A follow-on question on this post...

If you go from the se ac to the heavy breather, is there any remapping required for the EFI? Or since there is no performance change, does the ECM adjust correctly based on the existing Stage I mapping?

Don Burton
14th August 2009, 20:55
There shouldn't be any change in mixture as, has Folkie has already stated as the standard SE is also a low restriction air cleaner that already supplies all of the air a stock engined 1200 could need.

tim elliott
21st September 2009, 19:01
I'm about to have my '08 placed on the dyno at my local HD. We are going to see if an SE Heavy Breather can be fitted on my 1200N without a commander/remap. If it starts to flirt with more than 15lbs (atmosphere is 14.7) at throttle roll, then they'll recommend the remap. As you may already know, our EFI bikes are tuned lean and the additional O2 really puts the mixture over the top. At 16 pounds you can start to do some damage to the pistons with the extreme heat this fuel combination provides. However, to have a go-ahead without the need for the power commander (they cost too much, let alone shop charge for installation) would be great. I'll keep you posted... at nearly $300 for the Heavy and another $400 for a commander all for a slight hp increase and cosmetics???

Folkie
21st September 2009, 19:46
I'm about to have my '08 placed on the dyno at my local HD. We are going to see if an SE Heavy Breather can be fitted on my 1200N without a commander/remap. If it starts to flirt with more than 15lbs (atmosphere is 14.7) at throttle roll, then they'll recommend the remap. As you may already know, our EFI bikes are tuned lean and the additional O2 really puts the mixture over the top. At 16 pounds you can start to do some damage to the pistons with the extreme heat this fuel combination provides. However, to have a go-ahead without the need for the power commander (they cost too much, let alone shop charge for installation) would be great. I'll keep you posted... at nearly $300 for the Heavy and another $400 for a commander all for a slight hp increase and cosmetics???
15 lbs? What is this that you're measuring in lbs? Are you talking about a/f ratios? Stoich is 14.7:1.

tim elliott
21st September 2009, 20:40
Hello...
as it was explained to me, the O2/fuel ratio in the 1200 EFI is equal at approx. 14.7 pounds per square inch of each (which he went on further to tell me that that is a lean mixture due to EPA regulations). And that raising the level of air/oxegen higher than 15 pounds per square inch begins to really heat the cylinders up He told me that if during the dynometer test he notes a "rise of more than 16 lbs per square inch at the manifold" hat he can't install the SE component. Now with all that said, how have I misunderstood what was explained to me... really, it was greek at some points. I knew that we live in a constant atmosphere 14.7 pounds per square inch (at sea level) and he used this correlation to the air cleaner/fuel relationship. Please feel free to elucidate.

ReddTigger
21st September 2009, 20:55
ME thinks that the guy at the dealership was trying to act smart. The A/F mixture is a correlation for how much air per part of fuel.

a 14.7:1 AFR means that 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of fuel. Ideally we try (at our dealership) to keep the bike's around 13.5:1 which is a good combination of power and performance yet keeps the bike nicely cooler..

if you're getting the bike dyno tuned, please go with the Screamin' Eagle Super Tuner, much more reliable and better results then the power commander. We removed a PC and installed a Super Tuner this weekend and picked up 10HP/12TQ on a big twin. no other modifications to get the result.

tim elliott
21st September 2009, 21:10
Thank you... I've never heard of, or was that part ever mentioned (SE Super Tuner). May I assume that it is a form of "power commander"? And when does "remapping your ECU" fit into this process? When I'm on the dyno, if under power... or as he explained when the throttle is being rolled, what number is too high? Can a SE Heavy Breather be installed on a 1200 EFI engine without remapping, power commanders or Super Tuners?

Folkie
21st September 2009, 23:53
It's gobbledygook; you don't measure afr as a pressure.

tim elliott
22nd September 2009, 13:28
O.K., so what does he mean? Am I wasting my money with a dyno test? Does the SE unit already have a defined "mixture ratio" and do they (the dealer) already know what the outcome will be? Should I just bite the bullet and buy/install the "Super Tuner" as ReddTigger suggested? The technician/dealer spent a long time describing to me exactly what they were going to do... he said they had not placed my bike model on the dynometer with a Heavy Breather installed and was curious as to the results. If you have some experience or know what I might expect I'd appreciate your counsel.

ReddTigger
22nd September 2009, 14:03
O.K., so what does he mean? Am I wasting my money with a dyno test? Does the SE unit already have a defined "mixture ratio" and do they (the dealer) already know what the outcome will be? Should I just bite the bullet and buy/install the "Super Tuner" as ReddTigger suggested? The technician/dealer spent a long time describing to me exactly what they were going to do... he said they had not placed my bike model on the dynometer with a Heavy Breather installed and was curious as to the results. If you have some experience or know what I might expect I'd appreciate your counsel.


Wasting your money with just a TEST yes, a Tune no.. Depending on the dealership, the DYNO TUNE should be no more then 2 hrs labor tops. This includes installing the Super Tuner (Mating it to your bike) as well as at least a dozen pulls to get the proper tuning.

Seriously do not go with an aftermarket system. The New Power Commander V does not let the Digital Technician (HD's computer system) get any codes from the ECM.. (we have to remove the PC V to get any codes from the digi-tech) plus the results are less then stellar when compared to a Super Tuner. (we got 10 more hp and 11 more TQ on a bike with a Power Commander by switching to a Super Tuner. Albeit the bike had some modifications already)

if all your doing is just a heavy breather you "Shouldn't" (operative term) require a remap/tune, but it is recommended. The EPA has HD sending these bikes from the factory with a very high AFR.. typically when we install a stage 1 (pipes and air cleaner) we're seeing AFR's above 15:1 and as high as 17:1 before proper tuning.

I typically recommend to my customers that they do a complete stage 1 (pipes and air cleaner) to get the best bang for the buck. Might as well take advantage of the additional power/performance of the complete system. even if you gotta save up for it.. I strongly recommend this course of action. And top it off with a Fine tune on the dyno and you can expect to see numbers in the high 70's/low 80's..

tim elliott
22nd September 2009, 14:10
Thank you very much... I'm going to stop trying to understand the quantum physics required to understand the specifics regarding the a/f ratios (I now know that air pressure is not a component... 14.7 or whatever). However, will the Heavy Breather hurt my bike without the Super Tuner? He (dealer) mentioned numbers approaching 16.1 as harmful???

tim elliott
24th September 2009, 18:56
I just returned from the dealer after a dyno test. I shared a hard copy of Folkie's and ReddTigger's replies to my uniformed quires. His response was what you two must have assumed, not much more than "yea, that's what I said". However, the tech that conducted the actual test was much more clear. From his preface, it was explained that with the exhaust alteration (I have Rush slip-ons with 2 inch baffles) he felt we'd be o.k. without a SE Super Tuner. As it turned out, he was right. My numbers (please forgive my ignorance) came in well below 16 a/f and a hp/max power 73.9 and max torque at 72.09. The SE Heavy Breather is installed, looks great and apparently is giving me better than stock results without Power Commanders or Super Tuners. I thank you both for the input. I think I'll keep to riding and enjoying my bike and leave the "science" to the experts.

09 blackthunder
25th September 2009, 05:55
Did he remap or what are far as tuning?

tim elliott
25th September 2009, 13:47
I,m sorry... the number was 15.4 a/f for my bike. 16.1 was what the tech told me was where he felt a Super Tuner was needed. As far as remapping was concerned, all I know is that they did fuss around with the computer and my "ECU"? Both the service manager and the tech guy left me with assurances that my sportster was good to go and that they both thought that the results of the dyno test would have yielded much higher a/f numbers (i.e. bad).

09 blackthunder
25th September 2009, 16:52
If your comfortable on what they are saying then ok. The only thing or maybe a suggestion if don't want to purchase a tuner is watch your spark plugs and see what color they change to as you ride. If they start turing white or anything you better get a tuner. Safe than sorry so your bike doesn't go to crap because it leaning out.

tim elliott
25th September 2009, 17:15
Thank you for the heads up. I'm due for my 5,000, but as I mentioned, I just had it installed. I'll take a peek a at the plugs tonight after I ride home to make a visual baseline on the color (coco brown, right?). It was mentioned in all the lengthy recap after the bike was off the dynometer that I actually had some "rich" spots. They both said that they had not seen the kind of numbers/results for this application without a tuner/commander. Would it be presumptuous of me to ask if you'd like to see the print outs? I could send you a PDF of the documents.

09 blackthunder
26th September 2009, 04:38
Everyone always likes to see sheets and pics. I'm not denying anything your saying. I know certain bikes run different from others and come up with different numbers and perform different. Brownish grey wroks well on the plugs.

flashedwards
26th September 2009, 05:06
Hey Tim: If your really concerned about getting your AFR numbers down...here's an easy and inexpensive way to do it...Get a set of Nightrider Xied's. For $100. you can get your closed loop numbers down to 14.0 or so. For $160. you can get a set of AFXied's (that's what I have) and bring your numbers down to 13.6.....guarranteed.... and the installation time is about 5 minutes if you've never done it before. I'm not really sure but I would guess that maybe 15 or 20% of the people on this forum use Nightrider products.
These are great little items...smooth idle and lower engine temps. Ask around or do a search...you'll see.
Flash

johnwestphal
22nd November 2009, 08:48
There is a Nightster locally here with the SE 551 cams, SE SP slip-on mufflers, a Heavy Breather AC, the SE forged HC pistons with the SE Supertuner and this thing is very fast.

Sporting Lad
22nd November 2009, 10:18
I replaced my SE hamcan w/ the HB last summer.
I agree: Lots of kneeroom now.
I also think it makes the bike look wickedly fast. :wonderlan
As for performance? Well, it's at least as quick as it was before, but I'd like to get back on the dyno again come spring.

FoxsterUK
22nd November 2009, 10:52
I,m sorry... the number was 15.4 a/f for my bike. 16.1 was what the tech told me was where he felt a Super Tuner was needed. As far as remapping was concerned, all I know is that they did fuss around with the computer and my "ECU"? Both the service manager and the tech guy left me with assurances that my sportster was good to go and that they both thought that the results of the dyno test would have yielded much higher a/f numbers (i.e. bad).I personally wouldn't leave a bike with an AFR of 15.4:1. It will run hot and you are throwing power away.

What you now have is half a stage-1 with your pipes and A/C. It needs finishing with a ST, PC or Xieds otherwise you risk long-term damage to the engine, lowered performance and poor starting.

Your aim is to get the AFR to a MINIMUM of about 14.5:1 for optimum fuel economy or better yet 13.5:1 for a good compromise between power and economy.

misterT
22nd November 2009, 11:27
Foxster is right on, it will run the way they have it and many people do run them that way. The factory sets the air to fuel ratio very lean; greater than 15 parts air to one part fuel so that every bit of fuel is burnt up to make the exhaust cleaner. This makes the EPA happy but it is bad for your motor it will run hot reducing its life and make less power. When they say "it even has a few rich spots" I think these guys are goobers, all they know is how to bolt on catalog parts. But buying a SERT and having it dyno tuned is expensive and I dought if they can do it right, if you go that route consider someone else to do it. If you plan any more performance upgrades like cams and head work do it all at once.

ElectricCityIron
23rd November 2009, 02:30
I got the night rider xieds, so far so good. I dont have an air cleaner mod yet but it def. seems to make the bike happier like this.:clap

D-Rock
23rd November 2009, 02:58
Rule #1 - NEVER trust your dealers BS
Rule #2 - There are no more rules!

Folkie
23rd November 2009, 10:08
Rule #1 - NEVER trust your dealers BS
Rule #2 - There are no more rules!
:clap :clap

ReddTigger
23rd November 2009, 17:04
Rule #1 - NEVER trust your dealers BS
Rule #2 - There are no more rules!


NOT ALL Dealers give BS...


To the OP...

15.4 is WAY to lean.. I'm glad the guy was trying to save you some bucks, but anything over 14.5 gets corrected at my shop. or we have the customer sign a waiver..

on a side note.. we just took a stock bike with the Screamin Eagle Air Cleaner (not the heavy breather) and replaced it with the NRHS Hurricane and picked up a 10% increase in HP and TQ..

Don Burton
23rd November 2009, 18:43
There is a Nightster locally here with the SE 551 cams, SE SP slip-on mufflers, a Heavy Breather AC, the SE forged HC pistons with the SE Supertuner and this thing is very fast.

How fast? The SE SP mufflers are still fairly restrictive.

Shu
23rd November 2009, 19:18
NOT ALL Dealers give BS...


To the OP...

15.4 is WAY to lean.. I'm glad the guy was trying to save you some bucks, but anything over 14.5 gets corrected at my shop. or we have the customer sign a waiver..

on a side note.. we just took a stock bike with the Screamin Eagle Air Cleaner (not the heavy breather) and replaced it with the NRHS Hurricane and picked up a 10% increase in HP and TQ..
I'll second the not all dealers spew BS.
And also are you serious a stock 1200 with SE AC made 7 to 8 hp/tq less than with the NRHS AC? I knew the newer SE AC wasn't as good as the older K&N ones but never dreamt it would be that restrictive. Obviously some of the restriction comes from all the crap they put in the a/c instead of the smooth back and radiused air horn but dang that is a lot!

linkin5
23rd November 2009, 19:25
14.7 psig is 1 atmosphere but it has nothing to do with the air/fuel ratio that is measured with the dyno. It is determined with the different parts of the bike ie: carb, efi, A/C, pipes, etc. The posters here are correct I believe as your afr should be no higher than 14 or 15, and closer to 13 is even better. The higher the number the hotter your bike will run. For fuel managment I use a PC III, 78 HP and 80 TQ, on an 07 1200R. I do have the Hurricane AC also.

BWP 5p
25th November 2009, 15:24
on a side note.. we just took a stock bike with the Screamin Eagle Air Cleaner (not the heavy breather) and replaced it with the NRHS Hurricane and picked up a 10% increase in HP and TQ..

Oh thanks a lot Redd:doh:doh:doh
I've got the S/E with a K & N filter.....and now you're saying the Hurricane will get me 10% more horsies?!?!?!?!?!:doh:doh:doh

I'm at a shade under 83 now.......so 8 more from the breather??:wonderlan:wonderlan:yikes:yikes

Just re-read...that was a stock bike....but still???

JoeFriday77
25th November 2009, 17:16
on a side note.. we just took a stock bike with the Screamin Eagle Air Cleaner (not the heavy breather) and replaced it with the NRHS Hurricane and picked up a 10% increase in HP and TQ..

Just curious. Was that using the basic HD Stage 1 map or tuned with an external device?

xlint89
26th December 2010, 22:09
Anyone know what the HP limit is for the Heavy Breather?

xlint89
30th December 2010, 20:40
Anyone know what the HP limit is for the Heavy Breather?No body???

I hate bothering Dan with my petty Q's....

FoxsterUK
30th December 2010, 21:12
Anyone know what the HP limit is for the Heavy Breather?

No body???

I hate bothering Dan with my petty Q's....Your problem is that its a HD bit o kit and they aint gonna be talkin. Other makers test their kit and brag about the results - HD flog their gear on name alone.

I can make as good a guess as any - I'd say its good to 102.76 HP. Its probably about as close as ya gonna get.

Folkie
31st December 2010, 03:43
I'd say its good to 102.76 HP.
That's ridiculous! There's no way you can get more than 102.74 HP with that air cleaner.

FoxsterUK
31st December 2010, 04:16
That's ridiculous! There's no way you can get more than 102.74 HP with that air cleaner.Oh, ya! Silly me, I forgot to carry the one. :o I shouldn't post after drinking ;)

whittlebeast
31st December 2010, 08:07
(we got 10 more hp and 11 more TQ on a bike with a Power Commander by switching to a Super Tuner. Albeit the bike had some modifications already).

Have you ever let YOUR tuner spend the 2 hours dialing in the existing pcv to get HIS best effort HP on that bike and then have him do HIS best effort on the SEST.

I just wonder how much of the 10 HP gain is because your guy is just a better tuner.

To everyone else... 90% of good EFI tuning is in the midrange tuning. It is all about mixture control as the throttle moves thru its range. Getting a HP reading is just for bragging rights and drag racing. Personal observation, the wife and I never spend the day riding on a dyno. We ride on the street. I tune on the street. This have everything to do with getting to the data stream as you move the throttle in street conditions. Right now, IMHO the TTS system is still the only game in town for Harleys.

As a side note, I use a PC3 on the rice bike but I do have the quite rare LCD setup with data logging. Tuning that bike as far more difficult than tuning the Harley.

AW

whittlebeast
31st December 2010, 08:29
Regarding the OP.

I run a HHB intake for two huge reasons. Increased right leg room and greatly decreased intake air temps when riding on the street. I never bothered tested it riding on the dyno. My wife wanted to ride to the lake. I never get lucky and the dyno shop :)

AW

sportsterpaul
31st December 2010, 09:05
Oh thanks a lot Redd:doh:doh:doh
I've got the S/E with a K & N filter.....and now you're saying the Hurricane will get me 10% more horsies?!?!?!?!?!:doh:doh:doh

I'm at a shade under 83 now.......so 8 more from the breather??:wonderlan:wonderlan:yikes:yikes

Just re-read...that was a stock bike....but still???

Bruce: Don't lose track of the fact that by starting with an Orange bike you are already approximately 10% faster than the rest. Happy New Year one and all.

FoxsterUK
31st December 2010, 09:39
Right now, IMHO the TTS system is still the only game in town for Harleys.Having played with both now I'd say that the SEPST isn't far behind, if at all. Compared with the SERT then, yes, the TTS was miles better.

The interface and instructions for TTS are better but what you are actually doing with the TTS and SEPST is pretty much the same. IMHO ;)

whittlebeast
31st December 2010, 10:19
Have you played with the data logging on both systems? TTS is far better. The logging in SEPST has far too little resolution to be of any real value. About the only thing you can see is the general fuel trims when at steady state.

From the standpoint of Harley hidden tables and base tunes standpoint, my guess is that the SEPST has the advantage. Fine tuning without a dyno is useless on the SEPST.

It is like predicting floods when all you do is stick you hand out the window once every few hours and you get a river stage once a year. Simply not enough information.

Here is a SEPST screen shot of the dismal graphing capability. There is no export utility.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/SEPST_ScreenShot.jpg

AW

xlint89
1st January 2011, 08:51
Your problem is that its a HD bit o kit and they aint gonna be talkin. Other makers test their kit and brag about the results - HD flog their gear on name alone.

I can make as good a guess as any - I'd say its good to 102.76 HP. Its probably about as close as ya gonna get.

That's ridiculous! There's no way you can get more than 102.74 HP with that air cleaner.

Thanks for the response. By reading these 2 posts, I'm going to assume you and Folkie are in agreeance.

That's not enough air for my 88" then. I'll keep looking. Thanks again.

Phillober
24th July 2011, 05:45
Anyone know what the HP limit is for the Heavy Breather?


I can make as good a guess as any - I'd say its good to 102.76 HP. Its probably about as close as ya gonna get.

I like this question, back to the OP... does anyone know the HP limit for the SE air cleaner? I think that would answer the question

how about the hurricane while we're at it?

FoxsterUK
24th July 2011, 11:58
I'm not sure its anything like as easy as saying, "The engine makes X HP, so A/C Y is good enough". Its about flow - how many CF/M of air are being pulled through the A/C.

The only way to get an answer on this is to put the bike on a dyno and see how much HP you lose with the A/C on, as opposed to running the carb or throttle-body naked. There will always be some loss, its whether its a lot on a particular engine. A couple of HP is OK; if its like 10HP then I'd be concerned.

No maker is going to test an A/C on a load of engines and sell it on the basis that it's OK up to X HP, cos that's going to potentially limit their market. But a few general rules apply (from my experience alone, nothing scientific)...

If its a stock Sporty engine with a more open exhaust plus a tune with some more fuel, then most after-market A/Cs will be fine. After all, the same A/Cs are also good for stage-1 on 96cu HD engines. So these A/Cs will be fine for a Sporty engine with a fair bit of work done to it. You really are not going to see any difference with a fat A/C like the Big Sucker stage-2 on the vast majority of Sportys.

Once you start getting into fairly heavily modded Sportys (and other HDs) then its worth taking another look at the A/C. This is when you need to ditch the fashion accessory A/Cs, like anything by Kuryakyn or something with a foam element. However, remember that this is only needed for modded engines; sticking a fat A/C on a engine that's flowing OK already will make no difference, and they look a bit daft on a Sporty (IMHO).

If you do have a heavily modded engine then the simple rule is: bigger surface area is better. Just look at: http://www.knfilters.com/harley_custom.htm and check if the A/C you are considering takes one of the bigger filters here, like the HD-0600, HD-0700, E-3227, E-3228, etc. Very common K&N filter in many A/Cs is the HD-0800, which is fine for most engines and only needs upgrading for major engine upgrades.

Only other main consideration is how well fresh air can get to the filter. If its buried in a load of shiny stuff then its not going to flow well. Get the filter exposed to a rush of fresh air. Open K&Ns with no cover are good and so are heavy-breather-types (without a rain-sock).

Bottom line - if you have up to and including a stage-2 Sporty then pick an A/C with a reasonable sized element (4-6") with a bit a bit of space around it. After that, follow the thinking above.

Shu
25th July 2011, 15:35
Agreed with above with one exception. Anytime you can make it easier for the engine to pull in air, it will make more power. Though the increase in power may not be large enough to warrant the cost or styling of the filter or possibly the reduction in filtration of the filter media. One other thing to consider is the design of the filter and the temperature of the air coming into the engine. Heat soak the air and even if it is more air and you will lose power. Nice free flowing cold air is the key along with smooth transitions into the carb/TB. All that said though and I agree with Foxster, a decent sized K&N filter in most a/c bodies and it is fine for a Sportster. I think the best flowing and most powerful a/c for the Sportster at this point is the NRHS piece. A lot of design went into the backing plate and while it still utilizes the hamcan, it out flows the SE design. Forcewinder makes a good one as well. But again whether the extra 1 or 2 hp on a stage 1 engine is worth it is up to you.