04 05 air cleaners

[Milazzo]

The ham can has to go! It hits my leg while i ride, and I want a more classic look. I bought a EVO style air cleaner w/filter, and plan on installing this with a homemade breather kit.

Any of you try this yet? Also my bike is a CA model with charcoal cannsiter etc etc.


Thanks!
Mark
mark@worldspeed.com

[Turbota]

Like this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Turbota/6EngineSide.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Turbota/5EngineWithCover.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Turbota/RightB.jpg

[Smitty001]

I like that!

[xl1200r]

Does the big twin style cleaner actualy stick out less than the stocker???

[Turbota]

It does not stick out as much, but most importantly ... It is smaller in diameter, so your knee will never hit up against it. The filter is also a washable K&N where the 04-05 SE air cleaner uses a paper style filter element.

This SE filter and back plate is Harley-Davidson P/N 29008-90A which has been discontinued by H-D, but is still in stock at a few dealers. I got mine from: http://www.suburbanharley.com/

The air filter cover is avail as Harley-Davidson P/N 29548-98

The crankcase breather kit is Drag Specialties P/N 2110-0316, but is also avail. as Harley-Davidson P/N 29281-91T

Air Cleaner Support Bracket is Drag Specialties P/N DS-289062. The cheapest I found it was from http://www.phatperformanceparts.com/ for $20.95

[Gone]

the stock filter is washable

[Milazzo]

Thanks for the info and pics! That is EXACTLY what I am looking for. Also thanks for the part numbers. I already have the AC on the way, but wanted to get the breather parts. :tour

Mark
mark@worldspeed.com

[Turbota]

Here is another thread about this air cleaner with some other pictures:

http://www.xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=313

[TechRep]

Turbota.... What a nice lookin' setup.......

[thunderpaw]

Ron, your bike just keeps looking better and better. Nice job!

Kim

[Turbota]

Thankyou Mr. Paw :)

[SportsterSpive]

Yeah, your bike just keeps getting better and better!

--Sean

[scooter]

Arlen Ness now offers an air cleaner kit that is a one piece (similar to the SE air cleaner kit). The part is new and uses a K&N filter and accepts 93-01 round or oval OEM cover. It fits the 04-05 models.

Arlen Ness Big Sucker air filter kit. Part #182533 at Denniskirk.com $103.

I will try to put link here


http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=182533&store=Main&productId=p182533&catId=209&leafCatId=20902

[stinkydog]

i would also like to change the ham can.
My 2004 1200 r has stage 1 kit fitted.
Did you need to change jetting at all or simply bolt on and ride

[Turbota]

Mr. dog,

This is your Very first post! .... Welcome!

If you already have Stage 1 parts on the bike and it runs good right now, just changing out your 04-05 SE air cleaner for the SE air cleaner I have on my bike certainly will not require any more carb work.

[stinkydog]

Turbota

Thanks for that

Stinkydog

[Milazzo]

Turbolata et al,

I rejetted and the bike runs a TON better. Really unbelievable.

I pulled the little 'doggie door' section of the stock ham can for a little better flow. I'm adding slip-ons when I get back from Christmas.

I have a question about the air cleaner. I have the breather kit, and took a look at installing it while I was re-jetting. I bought an air cleaner but the bolt holes didn't line up with the carb holes. Does anyone know the part number for just the backing plate that bolts onto the CV?

Thanks,

Milazzo
mark@worldspeed.com

[Rigpa]

Re: >>SE filter and back plate is Harley-Davidson P/N 29008-90A which has been discontinued by H-D, but is still in stock at a few dealers.


FWIW P/N 29008-90A is still available ..well it is still listed in the 2004 SE catalog on pg. 34. I'm going w/ the Ness AC though.

[jeebus]

nice. very, very nice. gotta get one.

[rbuier]

Turbota, that discontinued part number I think has been replaced by this part number:
29543-99B. If you go to www.hmhd.com and check it out, does it look the same? I'm thinking about doing something soon, and I like what you've done.

[Mechano]

The ham can has to go! It hits my leg while i ride, and I want a more classic look. I bought a EVO style air cleaner w/filter, and plan on installing this with a homemade breather kit.

Any of you try this yet? Also my bike is a CA model with charcoal cannsiter etc etc.


Thanks!
Mark
mark@worldspeed.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4528823139&category=35574&sspagename=WDVW

This is the most common and cheap breather kit. The S&S Teardrop style for CV carb. Very cheap, but efficient. Used on S&S engines over 113" that deliver 110+ hp without problem. I don't understand why people go to spend lot of money, more than $120 for stupid plates with giant K&N filters if a Sportster don't need so much air if there's not massive head and cylinder mods.

You've bought the EVO style round system, it's good too, with a K&N or foam filter it breaths well, and don't need lot of maintenance.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4529006197&category=35557

And that's the horseshoe breather system. Strange it's more expensive than the AC complete system. But it's necessary because it's both a good head breather and an AC support.

With no more than $80 you can have a good AC system that delivers the same HP of other stupid expensive systems.
Don't mind what the producers of that system tell you. There's lot of tricks to modify dyno results or say the truth they want you to believe about their systems.

SE air system is a good system too but the paper filter element it comes with, is not good, if you change with a K&N filter there's lot of difference.
I don't like the stock big ham can, and I don't want my oil vapors enter into the intake system, the combustion chamber, valves, top of pistons and exhaust ports will become plenty of carbon deposits shortening the engine life and reducing performance and efficiency.

[Turbota]

Turbota, that discontinued part number I think has been replaced by this part number:
29543-99B. If you go to www.hmhd.com and check it out, does it look the same? I'm thinking about doing something soon, and I like what you've done.

http://www.hmhd.com/hdimages/29543-99.jpg

Fits 93-99 Evolution® 1340-equipped models equipped with stock CV carburetor, 42mm Flatside carburetor, 45mm Flatslide carburetor or 44mm CV carburetor.
_______________________________________________

Looks about the same as what I bought, except I didn't get the breather with my air cleaner. Had to purchase that separetly. But, I don't know if the head spacing is the same for an Evolution 1340 as it is on the Sporty. If it's different, then the bolt holes for that breather tube won't line up on your motor.

[aswracing]

Mechano, I don't know what your background is or how much dyno work you've done to back up your assertions and accusations of fraud, but I can assure you, I've done many thousands of dyno pulls over the years, with and without various air cleaners in place, and I couldn't disagree with your statements more. It's amazing how many bikes I've seen that are leaving significant hp on the table due to a too-restrictive or poorly designed air cleaner. A good, well designed air cleaner will often deliver more hp per dollar than any other possible mod. The bikes love surface area and well designed venturis. That's a statement based on lots and lots of testing.

[vetteguy]

Mechano, I don't know what your background is or how much dyno work you've done to back up your assertions and accusations of fraud, but I can assure you, I've done many thousands of dyno pulls over the years, with and without various air cleaners in place, and I couldn't disagree with your statements more. It's amazing how many bikes I've seen that are leaving significant hp on the table due to a too-restrictive or poorly designed air cleaner. A good, well designed air cleaner will often deliver more hp per dollar than any other possible mod. The bikes love surface area and well designed venturis. That's a statement based on lots and lots of testing.
aswracing, what would you recomend? Thanks, Guy

[Mechano]

Mechano, I don't know what your background is or how much dyno work you've done to back up your assertions and accusations of fraud, but I can assure you, I've done many thousands of dyno pulls over the years, with and without various air cleaners in place, and I couldn't disagree with your statements more. It's amazing how many bikes I've seen that are leaving significant hp on the table due to a too-restrictive or poorly designed air cleaner. A good, well designed air cleaner will often deliver more hp per dollar than any other possible mod. The bikes love surface area and well designed venturis. That's a statement based on lots and lots of testing.

The most efficient AC system is an airbox with intake restriction and ram air system to raise pressure profiting of the speed and obtain a bit of turbo or volumeter compressor effect to oblige the engine suck more air than it can with isobaric system.

The airbox has to be engineered calculating the cylinders volume and their efficiency, but with the right intake restriction permits to have the right air delivery respecting the right volumes for a perfect air/fuel mixture during engine pulses.

It's the reason why on modern engines are not used the direct front carb individual filters or velocity stacks anymore.
The pressure fall and air delivery makes an inefficent system that doesn't respect the intake pulses of the engine.

Because on an Harley it's not possible to use an ugly big plastic airbox like the one used on some Buells, we have to use direct intake old style systems.
Notice that the new Harley VROD has vertical butterfly bodies with a tank style airbox with the right volume. The tank is under the seat.

Here there's not way to calculate and build an airbox of the right volume for the intake pulse, and no way to provide ram air systems.

The only way is to provide the most air possibile and regulate jets and needles in consequence.

Every engine has it's own air needing. Going over with an most opened AC makes difficult to have perfect air ratio, good carburation and overall efficiency.

Here I read words like "make the air filter the most open possible like to run without any AC".
Without any AC is something stupid, not only because there's risk for the engine, but because it makes the higher horse power number despite of a perfect, efficient power band.

Have you never seen an F1 Ferrari, or motoGP bike without a sofisticated airbox? I never saw it both neither when ram air was unknown nor now that ram air is the rule...

You can do lot of dyno run researching for the max HP value, but with an exagerated opened AC and big filter you'll obtain 1 maybe 2 more HP than any other efficient AC system, but with an imperfct and plenty of "holes" sawteeth power curve.
Every falling side of the sawteeth shape of the power curve is the bad coupled air/fuel ratio due to the overcharge of air during intake pulses.

The most restrictive is the airbox and the most smooth become the power band.
But yes, the smaller are the max power numbers.
That's why now exists electronic control air intake valves together with titanium exhaust valves that an intelligent CPU and program controls to match the engine pulses to be high efficient.

An XL1200 with single 600cc cylinders has an air request that is slighty less and near the same at highest revs than a big-twin 80ci engine.
The AC systems studied in years of tuning of big twin engines are fully suitable for a Sportster too, and are now cheap and easy to find.

For the everyday rider the problem is both economical and practical.

For an XL1200 quite stock or mildly tuned, a common better flow then stocker AC system is perfect for good power delivery, smooth power curve, easy carb tuning, and good milieage.
For an every day use of the bike don't have that 1-2 more HP at max revs, but a smooth power delivery with optimum driveability without flat spots and hesitations is more important that the max power and only the max power.

If people need max power for a strip race, they build a bike with velocity stack, and will use it only for strip racing.

Maybe is the different driving style between here in Europe where I've small roads, lot of twisties that tells me to tune my engine for overall efficiency than for max power that you'll need only on straight highways or for particular racings only.
Here in Europe I've never seen any racing vehicle, car or bike use a free breath AC, but only efficient well engineered fiberglass or fibercarbon built airboxes. And into my hobby I did jap bike tuning for racing (look forward about my life).

If a teardrop or round AC with free flow filter, and an airbox intake surface similar to a 3" diameter hole with a 6" diameter x 2" tall hi flow filter costs me $40 and gives me the right horsepower with the good efficiency and smooth power delivery that permits me to have a perfect overall driveability for everyday riding, I don't think that spending $200+ for +2hp, a sawtheet power curve, flat spots and difficult tuning Is worth the money for that +1-2hp

And the cheap teardrop S&S style AC with unifilter foam filter or the round one with K&N round filter used stock on HSR42 AC system have shown to everybody from 20+ years till now that they are fully suitable for an engine till 115 ci with a big high performance S&S Super G or HSR 42/45 carburator.

I don't want to destroy your business, bacuse you have based it on AC systems building. But I say that there're also some other things that are same or more important than +2hp at max revs.
The price is the most important.
The good overall efficiency of the engine and good overall driveability.
And finally the good power numbers.

And there're different driving styles also and in very few of them the max power is the most important.

Now I want to kid a bit: maybe you american want to come in Italy to teach how to build, tune, drive bikes and win races? :p

Best Regards.

Mr. Mechano
Mechanical Engineer
1987, sicilian motocross championship 80cc class on Motori Minarelli racing engines and bikes.
1989 sicilian motocross championship 125cc class on Cagiva racing engines and bikes.
1992 championship Madonie Sicilian Mountains superstock open cup chronometer climbing race on Suzuki Bandit 400cc.

1999-2002 consultant engineer, tuner and tester for Team Xerox 600cc supersport italian championship.
2003-2004 consultant engineer, tuner and tester for Team Xerox 600cc Ninja Trophy italian championship.

2001-2002 Technical consultant and magazine articles writer for italian motorcycle magazines X-Moto and Mototecnica.

12 patents howner for miniaturized silicon oil non conductive, low thermal dilatation cooling systems for electronic equipments.

And motorcycle rider since 12 years old.

[aswracing]

You can do lot of dyno run researching for the max HP value, but with an exagerated opened AC and big filter you'll obtain 1 maybe 2 more HP than any other efficient AC system, but with an imperfct and plenty of "holes" sawteeth power curve.
Every falling side of the sawteeth shape of the power curve is the bad coupled air/fuel ratio due to the overcharge of air during intake pulses.

The most restrictive is the airbox and the most smooth become the power band.
But yes, the smaller are the max power numbers.
.
.
.
some other things that are same or more important than +2hp at max revs.


So you're asserting that restriction is a good thing for smooth power delivery? And too little restriction causes "sawteeth" dyno curves? And the power improvement you get by reducing restriction only comes at max revs?

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/drhurricaneflow.gif

Can you explain this then?

Sawteeth? Where?

More hp only at the highest revs? Looks like a pretty constant improvement, percentage wise, to me.

Driveability? The bike drives great.

Difficulty in tuning? Not a bit. That's a stock carburetor with a jet change.

I didn't plot a/f on this chart but it was very flat.

I've seen what you're talking about many times when testing air cleaners on Harleys, even fixed it on a few of them, but less restriction is not what causes it. I can produce dyno sheets to show you that, too.

PS: I am also an engineer and have 14 unrelated patents and have won a few races myself, but I don't what that's got to do with anything. How many of these configurations you're promoting have you actually tested, and at what power levels?

I deal with this day in and day out. It's one of the biggest eye-openers my customers see when I tune their bikes, just how much can be gained, over a wide rpm range, by removing a crappy air cleaner, aftermarket or otherwise. There's an awful lot of junk and poser-pieces out there (not asying any of the above are). A really good air cleaner, we'll pick up maybe 1% or less by removing it. A bad one, we'll pick up 10%. More often than not, the charts get smoother with the removal of a bad one. Look at the mouth of a CV and think about how the carb works and you'll figure out why.

[Turbota]

Mechano ...

I am no engineer, but I can say something about Buick turbo engines (and I guess it would be true for a Harley, since they are both gasoline powered internal combustion piston engines):

I have participated in many dyno tuning sessions on stock and highly modified Turbo Buicks (Buick Grand National) motors ... As for the the intake system, the best HP ever achieved on any of these engines was with NO air filter housing, no filter, and no restictions at all in the intake duct upstream of the turbocharger compressor section ... Period!

Installing any type of a [practical] air filter / air filter housing assembly only decreases HP while at wide open throttle (WOT) ... However, for obvious reasons, it's not practical or safe to operate an internal combustion vehicle on the street without an air cleaner assembly ..... So, the alternative is an air filter system that results in the least loss of total power.

I personally would like a system that only results in a total loss of 1% power output than a filter assembly that may loose 7-10% at WOT.

If I never operated my engine above 50% power, I really wouldn't worry about what air cleaner my Sporty has ... Unfortunatly, I like WOT power ... And that's why I would purchase an aftermarket air filter system that provides for the least loss of power at WOT.

As far as my Sporty is concerned, I am happy if I dyno and loose 1-2 HP with the air cleaner installed ... I am NOT happy when I have an air cleaner assembly that cost me 8 HP.

The dyno don't lie !!

Ron,

[Mechano]

Mechano ...

I am no engineer, but I can say something about Buick turbo engines (and I guess it would be true for a Harley, since they are both gasoline powered internal combustion piston engines):

I have participated in many dyno tuning sessions on stock and highly modified Turbo Buicks (Buick Grand National) motors ... As for the the intake system, the best HP ever achieved on any of these engines was with NO air filter housing, no filter, and no restictions at all in the intake duct upstream of the turbocharger compressor section ... Period!

... SNIP ...

As far as my Sporty is concerned, I am happy if I dyno and loose 1-2 HP with the air cleaner installed ... I am NOT happy when I have an air cleaner assembly that cost me 8 HP.
The dyno don't lie !!
Ron,

Turbo charged engines respect totally different rules from aspirated engine.
The compressor pressure regulate the amount of air/fueal the engine has to receive and it's easy to understand that everything interferes with the compressor job will reduce power.
Just remembering the turbo age of F1 championship and their incredible power delivery with only 1500cc displacement.

Back to our Harleys AC kits. You've choosen for a nice and cheap round AC.
The same has chosen our friend who started this thread, and similar to the one I've choosen. I've the teardrop S&S style for AC carb.

Do you think it's not going to deliver the right air amount needed by the engine?
Do you think you need 1-2 more hi revs hp for another $150 difference?

I'll be back with lot of info on exhaust, AC, carburator tuning tips.
I'm waiting for an US emulsion Tube, I'm studying how to modify the mine 2 holes Dynojet emulsion tube, I'll calculate the slide spring SAG and try to understand how much I've to shorten to anticipate the slide raising.
And If I'll be able to find the dyno free, I'll dyno it...

[rbuier]

What do you guys think about this one?

http://www.phatperformanceparts.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DS-288880

Is anybody using this?

[barry1967]

If it was available for the sporty, good.

I was going to get the Big Sucker II but they won't be available from Ness for another 4-8weeks, mid to late March, maybe. Besides, they still vent into the carb.

At least that's what Ness told me I talked to them about two weeks ago.

[xena]

Barry what's wrong with the AC you have on there now? Just curious because I'm switching from the SE AC to the same one Turbota has, and I think he said you have the same one.
I've got an 883 so I'm hoping it will work good enough.

[Turbota]

Back to our Harleys AC kits. You've choosen for a nice and cheap round AC.
The same has chosen our friend who started this thread, and similar to the one I've choosen. I've the teardrop S&S style for AC carb.

Do you think it's not going to deliver the right air amount needed by the engine?
Do you think you need 1-2 more hi revs hp for another $150 difference?
...

I choose the round air filter I thought at the time would breath a little better than the standard 04-05 SE air cleaner with the paper filter element ... Unfortunatly it was nice, but it wasn't cheap. After all the parts were put together, that round air filter and breather assembly cost me about $180.

Here in the US, that's not what I would call a cheap air cleaner. Of course when I bought it, that was about all that was available other than the SE air cleaner ... And it flows better than the SE. Now, there are better alternatives IE: the NRHS "HurricaneFlow" aircleaner and the Arlen Ness "Big Sucker" to name a couple. No doubt thay flow better than mine (they have greater filter area)

I understand that you can only go so big before you hit the point of "Diminishing Returns". Example: Installing a filter that is 7" in diameter and 10" in depth will not provide for any more HP on a 1200cc Harley than a filter that is 7" in diameter, but only 8" in depth ... The motor cannot injest that much air to begin with ... But, it is appearant that the standard Harley-Davidson SE paper air cleaner will not supply enough air volume for a stock Stage 1 XL1200, and it sure won't supply enough air for a modified XL1200. That's why you see a substantial increase in HP on the dyno when the air cleaner is removed ..... So, at least the NRHS and Big Sucker is a worthwhile investment if your looking for an air cleaner that not only does a great job of cleaning the intake air ... it also does it without costing HP. :)

Even though I don't own a NRHS air cleaner, I believe it's breathes as much air as you will ever need in a modified XL motor without costing HP ... Sounds good to me! ... And you don't have to go cobble together a bunch of parts from various sources like I had to do.

Just my opinion ..

[barry1967]

Barry what's wrong with the AC you have on there now? Just curious because I'm switching from the SE AC to the same one Turbota has, and I think he said you have the same one.
I've got an 883 so I'm hoping it will work good enough.


Nothing WRONG with it. I am just going after a little more filter area. Besides, I like the look of the open air filter.

This thicker filter will give me a bit of both worlds, A nice black wrinkle cover with a little bit of filter exposed. :D

[Mechano]

So you're asserting that restriction is a good thing for smooth power delivery? And too little restriction causes "sawteeth" dyno curves? And the power improvement you get by reducing restriction only comes at max revs?
http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/drhurricaneflow.gif
Can you explain this then?
Sawteeth? Where?
More hp only at the highest revs? Looks like a pretty constant improvement, percentage wise, to me.
Driveability? The bike drives great.
Difficulty in tuning? Not a bit. That's a stock carburetor with a jet change.
I didn't plot a/f on this chart but it was very flat.
I've seen what you're talking about many times when testing air cleaners on Harleys, even fixed it on a few of them, but less restriction is not what causes it. I can produce dyno sheets to show you that, too.
PS: I am also an engineer and have 14 unrelated patents and have won a few races myself, but I don't what that's got to do with anything. How many of these configurations you're promoting have you actually tested, and at what power levels?
I deal with this day in and day out. It's one of the biggest eye-openers my customers see when I tune their bikes, just how much can be gained, over a wide rpm range, by removing a crappy air cleaner, aftermarket or otherwise. There's an awful lot of junk and poser-pieces out there (not asying any of the above are). A really good air cleaner, we'll pick up maybe 1% or less by removing it. A bad one, we'll pick up 10%. More often than not, the charts get smoother with the removal of a bad one. Look at the mouth of a CV and think about how the carb works and you'll figure out why.

Do you ask to yourself why on modern bikes there're big airboxes with a relatively small hole?
The athmosferic pressure is a lot variable, because of temperature and other keys.
The airbox helps on maintain constant the pressure into the airbox despite of the outside athmosferic pressure.
With the airbox and the airbox inlet tube during intake phase into the airbox there's a negative pressure that is different from the athmosferic pressure. And the airbox get filled of air at a speed that depends on the athmosferic pressure and temperature.
In fact the most warm and fluid is the air the faster will be sucked by the carb but the faster will be filled the airbox. The opposite if it's cold.
So into the airbox the pressure is always constant reguleted by the right calculation of the diameter and lenght of the inlet tube.
If the air pressure is constant the fuel/air mixture is constantly regular at every revs.

Removing this system, the carb sucks air at the same athmosfere pressure, so the air that the engine sucks vary when the athmosferic pressure vary. Making the carburetion inconstant. And you tune the bike at a give pressure and temperature, it'll not be a good tuning when temperature and pressure will change a lot.
The bike become roughish at low revs and during transients. Hope I wrote well. I've lived in US for a while but I still have a bad english...

In fact you can see into your chart how the stock 883 dyno chart curve make the dynojet starting track the curve before the other curves, because there's a stronger response with more strong and constant torque at the back wheel touching and turning the dyno seams.

Now your dyno chart picture is not detailed and it's without torque. Torque is lot important to understand engine efficiency, but also if it's small and bad detailed I can see how more regular and smooth is the stock 883 power curve, don't mind the final horse power.

The stock HD airbox is enginered with the rules I wrote up into the limit of an Harley airbox style.
On a tuned and powered Harley (but on a stock one too) is impossible to study a big fiberglass airbox with a well calculated lenght/diameter of the inlet tube. For a so big engine the airbox has to be near or more than 4 gallons.

This is the right airbox dimension to have an efficient high performance AC on a big displacement twin cylinder engine.
And this is something the Harley VROD has into the fake gas tank.

I don't want to imagine what ugly monster can be a such airbox on a custom harley that isn't a VROD.
So for more horsepower on an Harley if we don't want to do an ugly airbox the only solution is to open the AC, putting the carburetor in contact with the air at athmosferic pressure with all the problems and unconstant results.

Now with the same pressure of the athmosfere don't mind what is the airbox shape or style. It has only to be enough opened for the engine needing. And the filter free flow as possible.

Oval, round, teardrop, cone style, the target is only to find the liters per minute, or gallon per minute of air the engine needs. And the needs depends also by the number of mods the engine received. Exhaust system, head ports, displacement change, valve diameter change.

The Turbota's round BT style system, my teardrop S&S style system, this system for example

http://www.wimmermachine.com/intakes-pop/in-vo2enlarge.htm

has lot of intelligent features, like the velocity stack and the vortex cone.
The S&S teardop style system is a lot similar to this except for a so long velocity stack. But it has a vortex cone. The Turbota's one and the yours don't have vortex cone.

Both the Turbota's round system backplate and the mine teardrop S&S style have the same shape and small dimension velocity stack of the yours. A lot similar.

All the systems have a lot open back side between the ham can and all around the backplate. Surely all of them have the same or more surface of a 3" diameter hole.

Both Turbota and me had a big power gain with our systems.

And I see our identical systems are used from long time on bigger engines, the S&S 113" BT engines with S&S super G carb. The Turbota's round style is a lot similar to the one used on Revtech's 110" with HSR42. Engines that delivery near 110hp and have huge displacement if compared with the small 73" of the XL1200.

And now what really lot of people are interested on...

Turbota's system or an Harlen Ness Big Sucker costs near $130 price with the cast aluminium backplate, 6"x2" round K&N filter, black round ham can, horseshoe chrome breather and AC support kit.

The mine S&S style for CV carb is $75 price complete with cast aluminium backplate, 6"x2.1/4" foam round filter, teardrop chrome ham can, horseshoe chrome breather and AC support kit.

Your system costs near $235 price with billet alluminium back and front plate, k&n oval filter 2" tall, no ham can, and the horseshoe chrome breather and AC support kit.
So the only difference is that yours has a bigger filter, I think 10-15% with the 2" one and 20-25% with the 3".

So, also with a 10-15% bigger filter do you really believe your system is able to produce on an XL1200 1-2 more horse power than a round or teardrop system used on 110ci 110hp engines?
If a free breath AC system produce 6-7hp over the stock system. If your AC system produce +1-2hp over our systems its a 20-25% more power.

I believe you can have good power gain against some AC systems. Against SE with paper filter, against Kuryakin Hypercharger with it's stupid coreographic butterflies, against some round small old panhead style systems.

In fact into your dyno chart there's also a comparison with the screaming eagle AC but with a paper filter. I'll be curious to try on the screaming eagle a K&N...

But I'll be more curious to see a dyno chart comparison only between your AC system, the Turbota's one and the mine on the same bike.

You wrote big numbers trying to justify $200 dollar for a billet back/front plate and a 2" tall K&N oval filter (without ham can).

I think choosing to produce the backplate in cast aluminium, falling fused aluminium on sand negative shape and machining to smooth it, you can reduce costs, it's not so important if it's made of billet or cast for a backplate, noone see and it's not a stressed element that needs the billet aluminium strenght.

Have you never thought to produce it in China? I know the overall quality will reduce, but it's a static component, it's not stressed, and will work whell also if made of shit metal. It's not a bad system, but you'll be able to loan the price a lot.

[iowahoss1300]

turbota do you have to install a fiting to route the crankcase pressure into the cleaner housing.

[Turbota]

turbota do you have to install a fiting to route the crankcase pressure into the cleaner housing.

Here is a thread that will answer all your questions regarding the breather and it's routing (with photos):

http://www.xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3057

[iustabfast]

Bought the small round Night Train cover and the rest of the parts you list, re-jetted my carb put it all back together. The breather tube that runs over the carb won't fit. I had to cut it, angle it up a little to clear the top of the carb and connect the two sides with a small piece of rubber tube. I wonder why they would make a breather kit that doesn't clear? Just saw an Arlen Ness part that does away with the breather tube. It is a one piece filter backing plate that bolts to the head. It has breather holes that run internally to the inside of the air cleaner. No need for the tube running down under the bike. The one I saw was for the big bikes but ours is supposed to be coming out soon. :tour

[gronk62]

Just saw an Arlen Ness part that does away with the breather tube. It is a one piece filter backing plate that bolts to the head. It has breather holes that run internally to the inside of the air cleaner. No need for the tube running down under the bike. The one I saw was for the big bikes but ours is supposed to be coming out soon. :tour
Yep thats the Ness big sucker. I had one on order for about 6 weeks and got sick of hearing "they'll be comin soon".
They've been "comin soon" for months and there's still no definate date for 'em :rolleyes:
Barry is sendin' me the same A/C bits he used on his bike. :clap

[barry1967]

Barry is sendin' me the same A/C bits he used on his bike. :clap [/COLOR][/FONT]


Got all the little pieces together and the breather kit. Just waiting on the backplate and filter to come in Gronko' :D

[gronk62]

Got all the little pieces together and the breather kit. Just waiting on the backplate and filter to come in Gronko' :D
WOOHOO!!! I can almost taste it!!!!! :D :D

[thunderpaw]

WOOHOO!!! I can almost taste it!!!!!


Meanwhile, in the armpit of Florida, The Little Guy still waits on his Big Sucker
:rolleyes: (damn if that don't sound like it came from some trashy dime store novel, lol!)

Kim

[Wardog]

Has anyone seen the new round one the Kuryakyn has on it's web site. I have attached a picture from their web site.

[gronk62]

Meanwhile, in the armpit of Florida, The Little Guy still waits on his Big Sucker
:rolleyes: (damn if that don't sound like it came from some trashy dime store novel, lol!)

Kim
:laugh chuckle to myself :)

[HLM]

Has anyone seen the new round one the Kuryakyn has on it's web site. I have attached a picture from their web site.


Wardog: Do you have a # for that? I couldn't find it on their site. Thanx

[Wardog]

Wardog: Do you have a # for that? I couldn't find it on their site. Thanx
Here is the link:

http://www.kuryakyn.com/wtproducts.asp?bn=harley&cn=Wild+Things&gn=Air+Cleaners

It is the Hi-Five Air Cleaner part no 9482 for the Sportster, at 199.95. On the main page at the bottom right is a link for their performance parts division. That is the page you will find it. I have placed and order for it from my local Indy at !0% off. On this weeks American Thunder, which is saw on the Speed Channel on Tuesday they were doning an Eglide and that is the air cleanrer they put on it. It looked pretty good. I hope mine comes in today. Will post a picture of it as soon as I get it.

[Wardog]

Mine will be on back order until May according to my dealer. Just have to wait. :cry1 But on the bright side I will be able to research more on rejetting my carb. I am mechanicly challenged, so maybe I will and maybe I won't. :yikes

[misterwizard1]

Bad Breather
Warning!! I used the same breather as Xena and it didn't last 100 miles. Next time I looked it had broken and the only thing left was the piece sticking in the hose. It's not the piece that mounts to the heads it's the small round breather. (filter)
misterwizard

[Hogan77]

I want to know why you would want to put a breather on so that the oil that it collects could blow back on your bike. I just put a tear drop air cleaner on my bike and it came with a breather. I modified the bracket so it would breathe back into the carb. I figured this is a better option since the bike came that way.

[xena]

I want to know why you would want to put a breather on so that the oil that it collects could blow back on your bike. I just put a tear drop air cleaner on my bike and it came with a breather. I modified the bracket so it would breathe back into the carb. I figured this is a better option since the bike came that way.

Hogan77,

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I specifically wanted a breather kit so I could stop the oil from going back into the carb. Bike runs a whole lot better this way, imo. (No more oily deposits gumming up the slide)
Additionally, the small filter I used as referenced by mrwizard is optional. Lot of people have just chosen to route the tube under the bike to allow the oil to deposit into the atmosphere.

[raysheen]

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I specifically wanted a breather kit so I could stop the oil from going back into the carb. Bike runs a whole lot better this way, imo.
Might not be able to speak for everyone, but you can sure speak for me :D I'm not a fan of routing the oil back into the carb either...espically for higher performance/compression bikes...but having said that, I've never actually known anyone to have a problem running a hypercharger or other system that redirects the oil back into the carb...

[csaintg]

The bike become roughish at low revs and during transients. Hope I wrote well. I've lived in US for a while but I still have a bad english...



Mechano,

Paisan, mi Italiano se doppio mallado! Mi dispiace.

CJ

[thunderpaw]

If I was pukin' the amount of oil that Ron was experiencing into the carb, I'd find another solution, as he has. I think another member here identified the potential culprit: The OEM breather bolts have a reduced orefice for the oil vapor to flow through. Most of the aftermarket units seem to have a much larger hole. The new style ('04-up) labyrinthine breather setup seems to have helped the issue as have the reduced-area breather bolts. As long as I am not dumping large drops of oil into the carb, I have no problem routing the oil vapors there.

Kim

[stevo]

Mr Mechano..

Just a small note here......There is more to an intake than just the filter size...

granted a still airbox has some benefits but, as you say, it's impractical on a Harley...

As far as the reference to the large intake on the Buells... if you take it off and have a look inside it's not much more than a long rubber hose...to alter the harmonic tuning.

I can recall seeing different intake venturi profiles that were tried on a flowbench many years..
Even tho some of the profiles of the curve appeared to be very similar there was large (over 5% from memory) differences in flow....

One can try and compare oranges to mandarines...they may look the same but there is subtle differences...and most people wouldn't either be able to pick the diference or care about said difference ..

For those that do care and want the best, then we will go with whoever has the runs on the board....price will be long forgotten while the quality is still being seen...and for those of us that know how hard it is to get those few extra HP at any point in, nevermind throughout the whole range....we'll use whatever will give us that.

As far as the tuning of your own carb and intake.... have you tried changeing the spacing with 1/8" spacers to get the best harmonic length for your set-up???
Have you cleaned the steps from the intake into the carb???
as steps in this area can and will cost you HP...
This is some of the subtle differences between a great air intake sytem and a good intake system

There's a little more to this than even you may be aware of...

[aswracing]

Just a couple notes on breathers ...

What's coming out the breather is exhaust with some oil & water vapor mixed in. Blow by is essentially exhaust, it's what got past the rings during combustion. There's less oxygen content and putting it back into the carb costs some power, something I've proven on the dyno. Plus the oil really gums up pistons and chambers, which can lead to detonation issues. Running that stuff back into the carb is bad news all the way around IMO.

Second point, if you look at your breather system in the heads, you'll see that any oil that makes it to the breather bolts has to come out, there's no way for it to go back in. The 91-03's have a one-way umbrella valve, and the new bikes have an air/oil separator, but in either case, once it's in that cavity, the only way out is through the breather bolt. So ideally, the best thing is to take the lines straight down and avoid any loops upward that could allow oil to pool up. When it pools up, eventually it'll blow out all at once and make a mess. This is one of the reasons I prefer banjo bolts over the chrome horseshoe thingy ... the horseshoe inherently creates a trap, the banjos can be pointed straight down. Nevermind what you see on the pictures of my bike ;) ... that's just what I had laying around that day.

Finally, I'd be very cautious about restricting the breathers too much. You can cause crankcase pressure and that can make gaskets leak, or what I commonly see when someone pinches a breather hose or something is oil moving from the crankcase to the primary, causing it to overfill and puke out it's vent.