Just went and re-dynod today.

Well, I finally got 90 rwhp and 76 ft.lb torque out of this bike with the Zippers Red Shift 567 cams and the RB Racing 2-1 pipes. Rest of the mods are in the signature below.

There is a little dip in the torque curve where it richens up to 11.98 :1 air/fuel ratio. I am going to have to go from a 180 main jet down to maybe a 175. That should fix that, and get me a little more torque.

But, you can see the torque curve stays almost flat from about 3,500 to a little above 5,800 revs .... even managed 70 ft.lb torque at a low 3,000 revs.
Not sure why the computor drew a line at 4,500 rpm?

http://img1.imgsatellite.com/u/05/137/00/Stage2Dyno.JPG

Nice, Ron! Bet it pulls like a bear!

Rob ...

It pulls hard on up to the rev limiter ... But best of all ... I don't have those damned clattering SE .551 cams in it anymore.

Now I just wish these RB Racing pipes weren't so damned obnoxiously loud! .... But they sure flow good! :)

I think if I get the carb leaned out a little more, the motor might make a little more power.

I really like that 90 HP, nice :D . And that is a nice TQ curve.

I would have thought the 567s would give you a bit more TQ than that.

Are you happy now?

I can't wait to dyno mine and then swap the pipe.

Barry ....

I'm pretty happy with making 90 rwhp with basically a stock displacement motor ... Well, .030" over bore 1222cc

I think it could benifit from some roller rockers and a little leaner mixture. I would like to see 95 rwhp. I think the torque will climb too with a 13.0 :1 AFR.

I was a little let down with the max torque ... But it's such a long flat torque curve and the torque comes in very early ... so, that's the up side of it.

Nice Hp you have there

Grayfeather.

Nice Numbers Ron!!!!!!

Congrats!!!! :clap :clap :clap :clap

OK, so now that you have been riding it for 2 weeks I have to ask...


When are you taking it apart and sending your cases to NHRS for the 88 inch kit? We know ya want it...We know you want more..It's just a matter of time........










He He

Your a bad bad boy Mr. Barry!

Your a bad bad boy Mr. Barry!


Who....What....Huh?

If I decided I wanted to intall those Zippers Red Shift 567 Cams what else would I have to do to the bike engine wise or other wise? I already have the jetting done, SE II A/C, and SE II Balony cuts. I want to get the SE ignition and get the rev limiter upped to 6500 I think it is. Do I need to do head work and install high comp pistons and rings?

If I decided I wanted to intall those Zippers Red Shift 567 Cams what else would I have to do to the bike engine wise or other wise? I already have the jetting done, SE II A/C, and SE II Balony cuts.

Valve springs to handle the lift, rocker box clearanceing for the lift, cam case clearanceing for lobes to clear the crank bearing race, lifter bore bases to clear lobe rotation, head work to compliment the cam choice, oh yeah and about 500 bucks :eek:just for the cams and gaskets

[QUOTE=Turbota]... basically a stock displacement motor ... Well, .030" over bore 1222cc.... [QUOTE]

Yea that's stock alright...

Ron, that's not even in the realm of kinda/sorta/maybe camp... I agree with Barry, figure 30 days....

All BS aside - awesome numbers. Good info on the cams as well.

Thank you Mike ...

Well, it ain't the most powerfull Sporty here, but I feel pretty good about the numbers considering the motor don't have those aftermarket "big bore" cylinders.

It just needs some more carb tuning right now.

Nice hp and great torque down low even. Too bads its not an 88 inch.
Mwahahaha...evil laugh. (sadly though of us with the sickness only want to infect others) 2 2002 xl's that have seen 7-8 different sets of pistons already.....it really is a sickness isnt it.
Lets start a pool on the 88 inch kit.....
Anyways, yeah that tq stays above 70 lbs over 3000 rpm....cant say I have seen that before. whats the intake closing spec on your redshift cams. I was surprised at my tq with the redshift 643. I got stronger tq at lower rpm than I expected. Great job, now rest and enjoy it...just ride for a while.

Narley ...

Here are the specs on the Zippers Red Shift 567s:

Duration @ .053" Lift:
253 / 253

Max Lift:
.575" /.575"

TDC Lift:
.204" / .162"

Timing @ .053" Lift
INT. Open / Close: 23 / 48
EXT. Open / Close: 53 / 18

Nice work Turb., I think you will get it to 100 with a few tweeks and when the engine is finally broken in. The thread on the cams was nice as well. I am considering them. I believe you are gonna find that last ten somewhere between roller rockers and sheer will.

Just wondering what kind of needle or what notch do you have it on? I know you have a 180 main right now but what size pilot? BTW looks pretty dam good just maybe very little tuning, hopefully the 175 will get you were you wanta be!

Thanks Ralph :)

Bill2 ... Here ya go

DynoJet kit with:

45 pilot jet
180 main jet - going back to a 175
C-clip on 3rd groove from top
2 1/2 turns on the idle mixture screw
Slide drilled per DynoJets instructions
Stock slide spring (too many carb farts with that light DynoJet spring)

I don't know about your bike Ron (nice figures by the way..) but my handling got kinda scary above 100mph when I did my stage 2 conversion and it certainly put me off trying for any more power.

I know I fitted the 1200S rear shocks and Progressive front springs (I couldn't afford the 1200S forks) but it still feels like it cannot handle the power properly. I wonder if it's the rubber mount frame?

Turboto. Great #'s. How much do you think those pipes added? Now all you need is one of those rb turbo's to really terrorize the locals.

seajay ...

I can't really say how much the RB pipes are worth over the SE pipes. The problem is ... I changed the cams and the pipes at the same time.

I feel the RB pipes flow better than the SE pipes, but I can't give you a number.

Ron,

Ron...

If those RB pipes just get way to loud for your neighbors... I'll be more than happy to help you out and take them off your hands anytime you need. Great job the#'s look awesome and I bet the bike is a real joy to ride. Keep the rubber side down as you zoom past those BT's that are wondering what that was that just shot by them.

Stan .... Thanks for the offer .... If they get too loud for me, I will just box them up and send them up your way! :laugh

Since the welded in baffle is about 4" up inside the end of the pipe, I am going to find a short baffle I can put in or remove with a couple of bolts. Loud when you want loud, and a little more quiet when you want a little more quiet. I am glad that these pipes can be loud though ... If I ever ship the bike to the Philippines, I want the loudest pipes I can find ... so I'm glad that the pipes at least have that capability.

I'm happy as hell with the fantastic build quality, the overall looks and power potential these pipes have ... just a little put off by the noise. They sound great at idle and even at a steady 70 mph cruise ... just too noisy and 'raspy' when you accelerate!

Ron,

Turboto. Great #'s. How much do you think those pipes added? Now all you need is one of those rb turbo's to really terrorize the locals.

I will be conducting an A/B test with a RB Racing pipe compared to my Cycle Shacks in a week or two. I have a different build than Ron but my numbers are not to far from his. It will at least give you an idea as to thier performance.

Barry. I'll be looking for your comparison. I have similar pipes(Khrome Werks HP-Plus) and a noticeable vibration around 3k rpm(60 mph/5th gear). I'd like to see if the advantage is worth $600+.

88 inch. (sadly though of us with the sickness only want to infect others)
uh oh...I think that I may have caught it!!!!

Lets start a pool on the 88 inch kit.....
I say he'll place his order by April of next year...right after he does his taxes! :D

Nice work Ron... I'll add to the din on guessimating his next move ;) ... think he should take Aaron's (or was it Justin, ah NHRS anyway) XL members offer before that end of the month and get those Stage II heads to to Stage III (if I read that right in the NHRS forum). That and looks time for a bigger venturri .. move on to a Mikuni see if that peak HP keeps climbing rather than flattening out ...just a swag ;)

That is a fantastic peak hp number, one of the best I have seen give the size and mods. Very good job!

Cant see the dyno plot, but there are alot of big question marks here. 90/75 numbers seems to be a really weak dyno with what your running. How about going over your build a bit more in depth.

Like the Mikuni Carb. Running a 180 jet on a Mikuni HSR42? I can't believe that. I run a 155, and your build in many ways is very similiar to mine. You should be in the 100/85 range as a minimum. I was making about 105/85 with the old SE .551's The Redshifts are very similiar to the 551's in powercurve but they are a tad more agressive. And I know 30cc's isnt going to make that big of a difference. Did you fry your rings by any chance? Did you properly heat cycle your rings?

Something is not right here. I know there is alot more hp and tq to be had.

Cant see the dyno plot, but there are alot of big question marks here. 90/75 numbers seems to be a really weak dyno with what your running. How about going over your build a bit more in depth.

Like the Mikuni Carb. Running a 180 jet on a Mikuni HSR42? I can't believe that. I run a 155, and your build in many ways is very similiar to mine. You should be in the 100/85 range as a minimum. I was making about 105/85 with the old SE .551's The Redshifts are very similiar to the 551's in powercurve but they are a tad more agressive. And I know 30cc's isnt going to make that big of a difference. Did you fry your rings by any chance? Did you properly heat cycle your rings?

Something is not right here. I know there is alot more hp and tq to be had.

No, I didn't "Fry" the rings and they were properly heat cycled. In fact, there is not more than 1 psi difference in the cranking pressure between the 2 cylinders.

That dyno pull and this original thread was made in May 05 and the carb that was on the bike was a CV with an SE ignition module. I have since installed a Mikuni HRS42 and a TC88A ignition module. What you now see in my signature is [not] what was installed when that dyno pull and the original post made.

On page 2 of this thread you will see that I posted the carb specs on the bike at the time the post was made:

QUOTE: "DynoJet kit with:

45 pilot jet
180 main jet - going back to a 175
C-clip on 3rd groove from top
2 1/2 turns on the idle mixture screw
Slide drilled per DynoJets instructions
Stock slide spring (too many carb farts with that light DynoJet spring)"
______________________________________________

The carb is now a Mikuni with a 22.5 pilot jet, a 165 main jet and the stock #97 needle with the E clip in the 3rd (center) groove. Accelerator pump nozzle is the stock #70. Idle mixture screw is turned out 2 turns which gives the best idle.

And, as I stated, a TC88A has now been installed too. I have also installed a set of roller rockers and adjustable pushrods since that dyno pull was made. The stock pushrods gave me .155" lifter preload with the current setup. The preload is now .100" (rods are now .055" shorter than stock on both the intake and exhaust).

Ron,

No, I didn't "Fry" the rings and they were properly heat cycled. In fact, there is not more than 1 psi difference in the cranking pressure between the 2 cylinders.

That dyno pull and this original thread was made in May 05 and the carb that was on the bike was a CV with an SE ignition module. I have since installed a Mikuni HRS42 and a TC88A ignition module. What you now see in my signature is [not] what was installed when that dyno pull and the original post made.

On page 2 of this thread you will see that I posted the carb specs on the bike at the time the post was made:

QUOTE: "DynoJet kit with:

45 pilot jet
180 main jet - going back to a 175
C-clip on 3rd groove from top
2 1/2 turns on the idle mixture screw
Slide drilled per DynoJets instructions
Stock slide spring (too many carb farts with that light DynoJet spring)"
______________________________________________

The carb is now a Mikuni with a 22.5 pilot jet, a 165 main jet and the stock #97 needle with the E clip in the 3rd (center) groove. Accelerator pump nozzle is the stock #70. Idle mixture screw is turned out 2 turns which gives the best idle.

And, as I stated, a TC88A has now been installed too. I have also installed a set of roller rockers and adjustable pushrods since that dyno pull was made. The stock pushrods gave me .155" lifter preload with the current setup. The preload is now .100" (rods are now .055" shorter than stock on both the intake and exhaust).

Ron,


Ah, I see that now, btw your dyno plot still isnt showing up. Just a big X.

On the rings, cranking pressure won't necessarily show up fried rings. You would have to physically inspect them. Just a heads up there.

BTW, didnt you state that your CCP was in the 170 range in another post?

Something in your build is not matched up optimally. Could very well be your compression ratio. If your ccp is in fact in the 170 range, that just helps to confirm it. You should be in the 190 range if you do in fact have a static cr of 10.5:1.

But your static cr is more like 9.5:1 if your ccp is in the 170 range. Thats a bit lower than a stock XL1200. And that would help to confirm the low dyno numbers for that build combo. Don't get me wrong, the numbers are good in general, but YOU personally can get alot more out of that build. Hell, I bet with 91-93 octane gas you can run the timing pretty agressively with the TC88A at least. Again all these comments are made on the assumption your cr is where I think it is.

Last point, as a reference for you the zippers "Super Hammer" kit on a XL1200 will make around 100whp and about 90 foot pounds of torque with those cams using a static cr of about 10.25:1.

Just went out in the garage and pulled both plugs ... opened the throttle, and checked both cylinders. Both were exactly 180 psi. Here is the pic:

I once had 170 in this engine. Must have been earlier than I thought.

http://usera.imagecave.com/Turbota/CrankingPress.JPG

Cranking pressure and static compression don't have a direct comparison, because cam timings (When the intake closes) have a pretty profound effect on cranking pressure. So, without a bunch of mathematical gymnastics and knowing the valve timings, it's pretty hard to say what mechanical compression you have based on cranking pressure.

Cranking pressure and static compression don't have a direct comparison, because cam timings (When the intake closes) have a pretty profound effect on cranking pressure. So, without a bunch of mathematical gymnastics and knowing the valve timings, it's pretty hard to say what mechanical compression you have based on cranking pressure.

Actually you can get a good close estimate on static and dynamic cr when you know what the actual cold cranking pressure is, along with knowledge of your cams intake closing point. Which we know here. His closing point is 49 on the intake.

BTW Turbota, you did your test last time when the engine was warm. So your numbers were as I thought potentially a bit lower.

Bishop ... your exactly right there. Everything else being equal, you can remove your stock cams and install a set of big cams with lots of overlap and get quite a large decrease in cylinder pressure when using a guage to check to cranking pressure.

BTW, I left the guage on it for at least 10 minutes and the pressure only dropped about 2 psi. That is almost no leakdown.

The motor was run about 45 minutes prior to this check. Warm but not hot.

Just went out in the garage and pulled both plugs ... opened the throttle, and checked both cylinders. Both were exactly 180 psi. Here is the pic:

I once had 170 in this engine. Must have been earlier than I thought.

http://usera.imagecave.com/Turbota/CrankingPress.JPG

Your around 10:1 static then. You could swtill bump the cr up another half to full point on 92 octane gas.

BTW, did you redyno with the mikuni and the additions to the motor?

Bishop ... your exactly right there. Everything else being equal, you can remove your stock cams and install a set of big cams with lots of overlap and get quite a large decrease in cylinder pressure when using a guage to check to cranking pressure.

BTW, I left the guage on it for at least 10 minutes and the pressure only dropped about 2 psi. That is almost no leakdown.

The motor was run about 45 minutes prior to this check. Warm but not hot.

You should do your compression check with a cold/warm engine,not hot, and the engine itself should be fully broken in.

Bishop ... your exactly right there. Everything else being equal, you can remove your stock cams and install a set of big cams with lots of overlap and get quite a large decrease in cylinder pressure when using a guage to check to cranking pressure.

BTW, I left the guage on it for at least 10 minutes and the pressure only dropped about 2 psi. That is almost no leakdown.

The motor was run about 45 minutes prior to this check. Warm but not hot.

Bishop is not right. With a good reading of your ccp(assuming your rings and valves are not worn) and knowing your cams intake closing point you can get a very good estimate of your true static and dynamic compression ratios.

Changing cams out do have an effect of changing static and dynamic pressure, that in itself is correct, thats why you need to make sure your cams are matched up to your heads volume and flow characteristics to make a good matching setup.

And last, Turbota you now have 2 different readings. You gave 170psi a ways back, now 180?

So, what's going to happen when it's fully cold?

That 170 reading I had before was with different cams. The reading was taken right after riding the bike. The motor was hot. Like I said, this time it was taken on a warm engine ... but not hot.

Premium gas here in AZ is only 91 octane

I need to re-dyno after I get this TC88A ignition set right.

So, what's going to happen when it's fully cold?

You can get slightly different results with a warm and cold motor. I prefer doing the test when cold. Others the opposite. Warm compression tests can mask problems that just start to appear. Hell Ive found that they can also amplify them too.

Ron,
Good HP numbers. I would think ya need to tune a little more torque into it. How many dyno pulls? Make any changes? Correct timing and jetting works wonders. Picked up a many of drag cars with just a timing light and a jet kit over the years. Everybody wants to spend more money! Ya got the parts already. Does it crank hard, have you tried raising timing, does it crank hard with raised timing? May want thinner gaskets to raise compression. Have you talked to Aaron or Justin, ya got their parts! I'm not criticizing! Just fixed many a race car with no extra expense (some were stockers also, many limits that you don't have). Been watching your bike build for a while, seems like ya want more torque to me!
Ride to Live!

So, what's going to happen when it's fully cold?

That 170 reading I had before was with different cams. The reading was taken right after riding the bike. The motor was hot. Like I said, this time it was taken on a warm engine ... but not hot.

Premium gas here in AZ is only 91 octane

I need to re-dyno after I get this TC88A ignition set right.

So you had a reading of 170 with the 551 cams? Was your motors rings fully seated and broken in?

Last thing you live in AZ, what is your average altitude there? 91 octane is decent, your probably better off with a lower cr. I thought only CA had low octane premium though........

170 psi with the .551 cams. Alt here is 1,400' and 91 octane is all we can get at the pumps here.

The motor has never pinged with the SE module, I guess because it reduced timing 5 degrees at WOT (at least that's what they advertise)

Due to high temps, density alt. can be over 3,000 in the summer. The only thng we have going for us is low humidity.

Of course, those dynos usually print out SAE corrected power, so it don't matter what the temp or barometer is on any given day as far as the dyno printout is concerned.

I had .030" thickness Cometic MLS head gaskets in the motor for awhile, but changed them to .040" because the starter was having a little bit of a hard time cranking the motor when it was hot.

That's about it. I would like to see close to 100 rwhp out of this bike. Maybe next time it goes on the dyno. Remember, I don't have a 1250 kit in the motor. It's got the stock cylinders bored .030" (1222cc is what Aaron says it is)

Hey Ron, I guess your back from boom boom land ;)

Anyway. I see you got the twin tech. All is well I hope?

Just remember Aarons 1250 conversion. Don't start at 5-5 on the tc88. Start at more like 3-3. I found on my bike 5-5 was too much. I ended up with 2-4 or 3-3 or something like that.

Play with it on the dyno but start low. The 5-5 recomendation from Twin Tech is for a twin cam moter, not a sporty.

Anyway have fun with it. :D

170 psi with the .551 cams. Alt here is 1,400' and 91 octane is all we can get at the pumps here.

The motor has never pinged with the SE module, I guess because it reduced timing 5 degrees at WOT (at least that's what they advertise)

Due to high temps, density alt. can be over 3,000 in the summer. The only thng we have going for us is low humidity.

Of course, those dynos usually print out SAE corrected power, so it don't matter what the temp or barometer is on any given day as far as the dyno printout is concerned.

I had .030" thickness Cometic MLS head gaskets in the motor for awhile, but changed them to .040" because the starter was having a little bit of a hard time cranking the motor when it was hot.

That's about it. I would like to see close to 100 rwhp out of this bike. Maybe next time it goes on the dyno. Remember, I don't have a 1250 kit in the motor. It's got the stock cylinders bored .030" (1222cc is what Aaron says it is)

Bah, you dont need the 1250 kit to hit that 100whp mark. I am actually not concerned about your hp numbers. I should have made note that the torque seemed low mostly.

OK so you originally had 551 cams with a .030 headgasket, but when you changed to 567 cams you went to a .040 headgasket correct? Do you know what your head chamber cc is? Your pistons are domed? Do you know the piston dome cc? NRHS should have all this info on hand.

The pistons are "Thunderstorm" style 15 degree dome. These are actually manufactured by CP.

My stock Buell heads had to be re-contoured to accept the Thunderstorm style pistons when they were CNC machined to Stage 2 specs.

Valve size is 1.850" int. and 1.615" exh.

The NRHS "Hurricane" springs with titanium retainers will accept cams up to .600" lift

That's correct, I replaced the head gaskets when I replaced the cams from the noisy .551s to the Red Shift 567s.

The actual specs on the 567s is:

253 / 253 duration

.575" / .575" max lift

.204" / .162" TDC lift

Cam Timing:
Int. 23 / 48
Ext. 53 / 18

I don't know the CCs of the piston dome or the head chamber CCs.

I guess I could get that from Aaron .... but, really, what is that info going to do for me. I am not pulling the motor apart again unless I break something.

I don't know the CCs of the piston dome or the head chamber CCs.

I guess I could get that from Aaron .... but, really, what is that info going to do for me. I am not pulling the motor apart again unless I break something.

Aaron, should have the CP pistons dome cc volume and head cc spec on hand. You should also doublecheck with Aaron to make sure your piston is a 0 deck height piston. I'm pretty sure it is, but ask him to be sure. So thats all I need from you. No need to pull anything apart for this info. This way I can calculate the true static cr that you are really running at. Then we can figure out what your dynamic cr and your ccp.

I just want to know what your internals true specs are to get a better understanding of your build.

BTW: Your cams timing specs are :
I:24/107/49
E:54/107/19

You were off a degree, probably just a typo on your part. :D

So far we got:

Head volume: ??? (67cc)
Piston dome volume: ??? (Still need this)
Piston deck height: ??? (Should be 0 deck height)
Piston size: 3.53"
Piston stroke: 3.812"
Rod length: 6.926"
Head gasket: .040

The chambers are 67cc and those domes are sized to give 10.5:1 under a 67cc chamber at .030 of squish ... Aaron didn't have the dome volume in front of him, but that's what the piston is made to do.

OK, I edited the above post. So then we just need piston dome cc volume. Its a thunderstorm correct? Probably just around 6cc. But an exact cc would be much better help.