Went to have the bike baseline dyno'd today prior to installing the SE cams in my 04 1200R. They dyno'd it in 4th gear. I wanted to have it dyno'd in 5th, but they said it is too dangerous if the tire comes apart. I think that is BS, but I was not going to argue with the guy.

They did say that had I dyno'd in 5th, the rwhp would be maybe 3 rwhp more.

Mods are:

SE II slip fit muffs
SE 'FXSTB' air cleaner with K&N filter (round type)
SE ignition module (7,000 rev limiter)
DynoJet carb kit

rwhp peaked at 68.5 @ 5,800
torque peaked at 73.6 @ 4,200

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Turbota/Stage1DynoChartb.jpg

Looks like you are losing a little power between 2500 & 4000
rpms. May have to tweak carb and mixture just a little. :yikes

Your right. I didn't have the operator put the fuel/air sensor in the pipes, but it sure looks like it may be slightly lean until the needle is pulled all the way out of the jet. Of course, that's just a guess.

If it was a little lean, I guess all I would need to do is install the little c-clip in the next lower slot on the DynoJet needle (I guess that would be the same as adding another washer on a stock type needle?)

What's interesting is how the HP stays pretty level all the way from 5,800 to 6,200. I would have thought it would have dropped off after 5,800 - 5,900

Ron,

Are the SE slips baffled? Alot of pipe combinations will
give different dyno results. On the pre 03 models
the stock pipes had the crossover built into them
and the protruding crossover pipe would create
horsepower. WHAT THE HELL EVER!!!!! by
disrupting the harmonic balance of the air waves
coming out of the pipes.

The crossover was a MOCO blunder.

The SE II muffs are baffled, but not to the extent the stock muffs are. There is lots of talk of various exhaust systems and the power they make (or don't make), but, from what I have read, the SE IIs are a pretty good muff as far as making power, yet not being obnoxiously loud.

Of course, the more I drive this bike, the more I wish it was louder ... Go figure.

All in all, the graph looks pretty good to my untrained eye, except for that dip in the torque graph. Hopefully it's just a slight lean condition. The HP graph seems to look pretty nice without a lot of fluxuations.

Anyway ....

I'm impressed with how steep the torque climb is from out of the bottom.

Louder pipes probably won't give you more horses. My straights are probably the worst for performance even with the power cones. But I like the sound and as long as they are better than stock I'm okay with them.

The SE II muffs are baffled, but not to the extent the stock muffs are. There is lots of talk of various exhaust systems and the power they make (or don't make), but, from what I have read, the SE IIs are a pretty good muff as far as making power, yet not being obnoxiously loud.

Of course, the more I drive this bike, the more I wish it was louder ... Go figure.

All in all, the graph looks pretty good to my untrained eye, except for that dip in the torque graph. Hopefully it's just a slight lean condition. The HP graph seems to look pretty nice without a lot of fluxuations.

Anyway ....
Yes the graph looks excellent, just may have to adjust the pilot jet
which may help it in the middle. the dyno will not lie when it comes
to tweaking the tuning. The shade tree bikers just don't have a
clue when it comes to seat of the pants tuning. Just cause it seems
to run fine doesn't mean that they are getting the most HP and
torque out of there bikes. A fine tuned machine will run alot
longer with alot less trouble in the long run. :yikes

Just to compare, here's a dyno on my 1200R, Stage 1, SEII. Remarkably close! Somewhere in another thread is another dyno on the same system, but through ALL GEARS instead of the ROLL-ON (4th).

Shark ...

Our dyno numbers are very very similar. I see that even the HP numbers are the same at 4,000.

Remarkable

It is remarkable how similar all the dyno runs are, I think it shows that H-D have got their building tolerances right now.

It will be interesting to see the difference with your cam change, depending which type you go for.

Here is my stage 1 - D&D slip-ons, SE AC kit for sporty, Jetted carb and factory ignition.

Barry ....

Those are some really good numbers. You made about 6 HP more and 3.5 more on the Torque.

I dyno'd in 4th. He said I would maybe have made another 3 HP if dyno'd in 5th, but, like I said before, I was in no position to tell him how to run his dyno.

Anyway, after I install the SE cams, I will put it back on the same dyno, and have it dyno'd in the same gear just so I can get an accurate indication what these SE cams will make over stock cams.

I am still on the fence as to whether or not I should send the heads out to have them tweeked while I have the engine apart ... But then I would have no idea as to how much increase in power the SE cams will make by themselves ... So, I don't know exactly what I am going to do right now.

I think I might start pulling it apart today ... I am also going to get an adapter for my pressure gauge and check what the cranking compression is in the cylinders prior to pulling the motor apart.

Ron,

Ron-

Keep us "up-to-speed" with your printout when you re-dyno. I am debating next steps for mine, and if you see a significant gain, I'll prob follow your lead.

Jeff

Thanks for the baseline #'s. How many passes did they make and how long did it take?

seajay ...

This particular dyno charges $30 per pull, so I just had them make 1. I didn't have them hook up the air/fuel sensor either, but will have that done when I go back.

Didn't take them more than about 20 minutes to strap the bike down, hook up the wires, and then run it. Even if I had them make another pull, I don't think the numbers would be any different. Before putting it on the dyno, I ran it up to about 6,200 revs in 1st, 2nd and 3rd a couple of times to clean out the cylinders good and get it hot.

Hey Bota, the SE catalog shows a comporable set-up on page 23, High flow AC, 44mm carb and intake, SE 551cams, SE ignition and SE proII exhaust and it only made about 78HP and 73ft lbs. I sure think the 44mm carb is a drawback with so little real engine work, but even so those numbers aren't that great.

I know I've beaten it to death but my N3's make 83HP and 81ft lbs with heads. The N2's made 84HP with 79ft lbs. And the Andrews cams are cheaper.

Someone here had the SE 551 installed and there was a Dyno somewhere. Take a look for yourself. I think people get the SE stuff cause it's factory equipment but I personnally think people can do better with aftermarket stuff sometimes.

Thanks Turbota. I bet it sounded great going thru the gears under load, in an enclosed enviornment.

Well, the top is apart .... Cam gearcase is next

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Turbota/DSCN0471.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Turbota/DSCN0469.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Turbota/DSCN0467.jpg

Boy, now doesn't that look familiar.LOL. Doesn't it feel wierd that as of right now you have voided the remainder of your warranty. :yikes Sleep tight. Don't worry though, I voided mine with only 375 miles :D

Funny thing though, I don't remember mine having F's or R's.

Barry ...

The good ol' magic marker:

F - front
R - rear
FF - front front
FR - front rear
RF - rear front
RR - rear rear
T - top

It's the only way I can keep this crap in order :)

Someone here had the SE 551 installed and there was a Dyno somewhere. Take a look for yourself. I think people get the SE stuff cause it's factory equipment but I personnally think people can do better with aftermarket stuff sometimes.

A couple of interesting things to point out here. Screamin' Eagle parts are not made by Mother HD. They are made by many aftermarket companies, like Andrews, Arias, etc.

In the case of cams, the performance characteristics are all in the profile and has very little to do with who is doing the grinding provided they know what the heck they are doing. Lift, duration, Intake and exhaust valve timing, overlap, intake lode center, etc. All of that needs to be figured using the flow characteristics of the carb, intake, heads, exhaust, etc., along with compression ratio and tons of other things.

When it comes to the '04 and up 1200 engines, you have to remember that the heads flow like they do on the Buell XB12. They have very good sized intake and exhaust ports and valves. These heads are going to perform best in the upper rpms for 1200 cc's. So, provided that HD built the lower end as stong as the Buell's, I'd recommend aiming modifications on these engines based on the Buell XB12 parts instead of many others. JMHO. :)

Hey Bota, it was a joke. Good idea, I just laid it all out as I took it off. I didn't remove the vent breathers though so I knew which was which. Are ya goona try those lifter covers now? HEHE


Shu, I know what your saying but don't you find it odd that the SE stuff generates less power than Andrews and yet people keep buying the SE stuff. I looked around and asked questions before I bought my stuff and the SE stuff just doesn't seen to cut it. Even the big twin SE stuff produces lower figures than almost everyone elses products. I am not bashing anyone's choices but the SE stuff to me seems overpriced and underpowered. If you want Buell numbers than I suggest a person buy a Buell, but I want low end power with moderate HP. That's why I went with Andrews stuff. Dollar for dollar I think it is a better deal. If I had the money I would have bought Red Shift 567's and done it differently.

odd u say it peaked at 5800, when it was still building when u cut it off at 6300... the 240 exhaust duration keeps it going at the high rpm's... i wish u coulda dyno'd again with the baffles removed, so i could see what mine would look like...

My engine will be running tomorrow. I just wrote a Cam Change How-To.

You can see it in the Motor and Electrical forum.

Here is a link to the thread:

http://www.xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=870

Shu, I know what your saying but don't you find it odd that the SE stuff generates less power than Andrews and yet people keep buying the SE stuff. I looked around and asked questions before I bought my stuff and the SE stuff just doesn't seen to cut it. Even the big twin SE stuff produces lower figures than almost everyone elses products. I am not bashing anyone's choices but the SE stuff to me seems overpriced and underpowered. If you want Buell numbers than I suggest a person buy a Buell, but I want low end power with moderate HP. That's why I went with Andrews stuff. Dollar for dollar I think it is a better deal. If I had the money I would have bought Red Shift 567's and done it differently.

I think you missed the point, the SE stuff has an application and it could be the perfect cam profile for the engine depending upon other modifications. To compare SE stuff to Andrews is fine since if memory is correct, Andrews produced the SE bolt in cams prior to the '04 engines, but I could be wrong. I'll check around and see if I can confirm that. Anyway, prior to these new heads being bolted onto the Sportster, the SE bolt in cams and .536 lift cams were good for those heads and how they flowed. However, these '04 heads have very larger ports and valves, which makes them NEED to turn a lot of rpms to make up for the loss in velocity in the lower rpms. Any cam that takes advantage of the new heads will add power, however if you are looking for that power to be under 4,000 rpms, then you are really going to have to seriously look at increasing the cylinder pressures with either higher compression pistons or a cam profile that uses the intake valve closing timing to help. Basically, all I'm saying is that just because it has SE on it doesn't make it not as good as others, you just have to know how to match the parts to make the best power where you want it. And that cam profile that Andrews came up with for the N3 looks like a great step in the right direction to do exactly what Barry is wanting....low end torque.

Back to my earlier comments about the Buells....A Buell XB12 out of the crate makes 103 hp @ 6800 rpms and the peak torque is 84 ft lbs at a whopping 6,000 rpms. I'll look around and see if I can find a dyno sheet so you can see the curves, but the power band on this bike is from about 3000 to 6800 rpms. My point about recommending these parts is that those numbers are attainable on a new Sportster without a tremendous amount of money being spent. The Buell has different pistons (10:1 compression) and different cams, but the rest of the engine is very similar. You would want to gear the Sportster more closely to the gearing on the XB 12 to take advantage of the higher revving power quicker, but I do not think you would feel any loss in the torque. And since the Buell parts are factory parts and not something out of the SE catalog, they should be cheaper. For example, I think the stock 1200 pistons pre 04 are something like $140 from your dealer while the SE pistons are more like $250 from the dealer. I haven't check stock cam prices, but I would bet they are priced significantly less as well.

BTW, Barry, your numbers look great and I'm sure it is an absolute blast to ride. None of my opinions are to demean what you have accomplished (which are very respectable numbers in the exact area you were wanting to maximize power), I'm just throwing a few of my thougths out there.

In my case, I was very confused whether I should use the Andrews N4 cams or the 04-05 specific SE cams. Nallin looked at the specs on both of them. He was not so concerned with duration or lift. What he looked at was valve timing. The guy I talked to at Nallin said that the SE cams would produce better low end throttle response and have a better high RPM potential due to the difference in cam timing than the N4s in a stock compression 04-05 1200.

He also said that the 04-05 SE cams are in fact the Buell XB-12 cams.

I asked him why the Buell makes so much more rwhp than the 04-05 XL1200 if they both have the same heads and, now in my case (the same cams after I change mine). He said the Buell benifits from a lighter flywheel and fuel injection, but most importantly ... The design and geometry of the drive to the real wheel. He talked about angles and such, and that the Buell looses much less HP to the rear wheel than the Sporty.

He said if both engines (considering the 04-05 1200 had the Buell cams), were placed on an engine dyno (not a rear wheel dyno), the HP numbers would be much much closer between the two.

Just what he told me ...
Ron,

Interesting information Turbota. The Buell does have different pistons that create 10:1 compression instead of the 9.7:1 compression and they do have the lighter flywheel/rotating assembly, both of which do help to create more power. The fuel injection is negligable at best, but the angle of the dangle can make a significant difference in how much power is transmitted to the ground. Thanks for the information.

This link may have been posted before, but I found it good reading on the '04 and up Sportsters.

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/ModelEvalSportsterPart1.pdf

And here is a dyno on the XB12. Pretty good torque numbers.
http://photos.motorcycle-usa.com/BuellXB12Rdyno.jpg

Well, I just took the bike for a test drive. Two things are very noticable:

1. The bike pulls like a freight train to 6,700 rpm. The rev limiter is set at 7,000 but I didn't want to spin it any higher. I will take it back to the same dyno I had it at before the cam change and post another dyno sheet. My 'seat of the pants' dyno is real happy. We shall see what the real dyno says. I did change out the 170 main jet for a 180 while I was working on the bike. Other than that, it still has the DynoJet kit with a 45 slow, and now a 180 main along with the stock slide spring. I don't feel I lost any low rpm (2,000-3,000) torque with this cam. Still idles good at 900-1000 rpm.

2. The valvetrain is much noisier. Sounds like a sewing machine when idling. I was told the cam's base circle is the same as the stock cam, so it cannot have anything to do with a change in lifter preload. My guess is that the cam has much faster ramps resulting in the valvetrain noise. I changed cams in my 98 Trans-Am with the aluminum block LS1 engine. It also has non-adjustable valves like the Harley. Comp Cams told me the noisy 'sewing machine' type noise during idle was indeed from the fast ramp profiles on the cam lobes ... I think this is also the case here.

Anyway, I will post another dyno sheet the first of next week.

I may now replace the Briggs & Stratton decals on the tank with Singer Sewing!

http://www.anything-direct.com/singer/singer_images/sewing_logo.gif


http://www.sewitgoes.net/Victc/singer/sngearly/snglogo.jpg

Hey turbota. Some of the noise comes from the cam gears. Each set is "fit" for the motors cam cover/case. When you change the cams you kinda get a generic set of gears to fit all motors. We are only talking thousandths of inches in gear size but it does matter. My N2's were nice and quiet but the N3's are a bit noisier. It may have to do with lift as well but not sure. I believe up until the 04's HD had like 7 different size gear sets marked with colored dots on them.


By the way, nice job. I'm looking forward to your dyno.


Shu, I understand your point. I just figured if more usable power could be had in a reasonable rpm range, say under 6500, most folks would want to go that route. No dis-respect to anyone's choices, I just don't want some people to expect to much with the newer headed bikes. I was expecting more from my 04. HOWEVER, I did just win a set of 04 883 heads w/valves on e-bay for $275 shipped which I will try to have reworked this winter, if I can afford it, and stick em on to see the difference between the two. That and a set of wisecos will be my only change. Thanks for the info. Sorry to jack the last part of your thread turbota.

Not Highjacking my thread at all. All these posts are interesting to me.

Personally, I would rather read the performance mods threads than the chrome and flash threads ...

Yeah me too. I don't know it all or pretend to. All I can speak from is my own experience. I'm only trying to help in any small way I can. If I am wrong and someone notices I hope they will correct me with tact. I will probably never be totally satisfied with my bike but I think that is some of the fun..

Barry,
Curious how does the lift of the Andew's N3's compare to the '04 SE cam set lift of .551 and 249d duration?

Also anyone out there using RB racing's LSR 2 into 1 exhaust? If so how's the sound and the perfromace?
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/lsr21.htm

Regards,
Travis

Rigpa, first of all welcome to the forum. I hope you go introduce yourself proper like in the welcome forum.

Anyway, the N3's have 480 lift with 240/236 duration.

Turbota,
I’m curious...
I have heard that the lifter noise would improve after awhile. Would you let me know if it gets any better…? Thanks.

sure will ...

Went to have the bike baseline dyno'd today prior to installing the SE cams in my 04 1200R. They dyno'd it in 4th gear. I wanted to have it dyno'd in 5th, but they said it is too dangerous if the tire comes apart. I think that is BS, but I was not going to argue with the guy.



What kind of slide spring are you using?

it seems you have a range between 2500~4000 a bit lean.
To correct you can shorten the slide spring.

In racing I used on my bike a trick to find the right spring lenght.
I used a third hand for electronic use with crocodile clips to shorten the spring and doing a tin soldering. Try it shortened and then unsolder it to resolder on a different lenght. When I find the right spring lenght I cut it or just leave it soldered.

The spring when closed by the carburetor cap get preloaded. Like the shocks preloading makes them starting to work after the force is applied for a while, retarding the spring action.
Cutting it you reduce it's preload on a way that the so named SAG value is reduced, end the spring will be compressed at an instant t of time shorter (from when the force is applied) than with a bigger preload. Raising the slide before.

You know that raising the slide before you'll start to make rich a trarting from a lower rev range. You can vary the rpm value that the slide has to start rising simply putting a longer or shorter slide spring.

Something useful come from looking the carb working.
You have an XL1200R it has the rev meter or rpm counter (sorry for my bad english), you can dismount the air filter, start the engine and open the gas bit by bit looking the rev meter and trying to see at what rpm the side starts to work. Try to see the difference before and after have shortened the slide spring.

Lot of documents into internet and Harley hentusiasts say that 1" cut is a good value to oblige the slide to rise near 800-1000rpm before and of 10% higher than normal.

--
Mr. Mechano

shu, when I did the conversion last year City Cycle sales price stock cams for 1994 883 non California, right at $110, SE bolt ins $250. Topeka HD wanted $150 for a used set of stock cams with less than a 1000 miles, SE bolt ins $245