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View Full Version : HELP ! 883-1200 conversion w/N4 cams


chongrrmc
7th August 2010, 09:06
Good morning,
here's the problem I'm up against. I have a 2005 883
We're putting in the 1200 Wiscoe kit we got from J&P the 10:1 comp set.
We're also wanting to install the Andrews N4 grind cams. HOWEVER....
I keep reading about a head modification that needs to be done so we can run those cams with this conversion kit. The question I have is....What EXACTLY is the "head modification" we need to do in order to run these cams? Yes, we're using the stock 883 heads. Any help would be very much appreciated !

xena
7th August 2010, 09:48
Head modification? Can you link to the sources
you are referring to about the modification?
I was under the impression
those cams were bolt-in and the same as the
SE 497's? Actually been thinking of adding them
to my existing conversion.

Here's a thread that supports what I thought: Clicky (http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=45551)

KaotikEvo
7th August 2010, 10:00
grinding for lobe clearance maybe?
are we talking stock heads?

chongrrmc
7th August 2010, 10:01
Head modification? Can you link to the sources
you are referring to about the modification?
I was under the impression
those cams were bolt-in and the same as the
SE 497's? Actually been thinking of adding them
to my existing conversion.

Yes, head modification. I to was under the impression that the N4's were a direct bolt in. But like I said, the instructions that came with the cams clearly states that my model year(2005) needs "head modification" to run these cams. Now just saying head modification alone, is vague at best. I've called Andrews, no help there this morning. I've called J&P and the tech there mentioned "maybe" using adjustable push rods might be it. Here is a link to the catalog page from J&P if you look closely it says this:

"Cylinder heads for 2005-2006 are different from earlier models. N3 cams will bolt in. ALL other grinds require head modification"

http://www.jpcycles.com/catalog/2010harleycatalog/?entrypage=484

I thank you for your time. I gotta say, this supposed head mod is very vague, at best.

chongrrmc
7th August 2010, 10:02
grinding for lobe clearance maybe?
are we talking stock heads?

Yes, we're using the stock 883 heads with absolutely no mods to them as of yet. But wouldn't grinding for lobe clearance be done in the cam chest? And with a .490 lift, would grinding down there even be warranted?
Thanks for all the help!

KaotikEvo
7th August 2010, 10:05
interesting,.......i thought they were drop ins too, smeone will chime in shortly.

Bruce
7th August 2010, 10:09
I know when I did mine I had to clearance the top valve cover because the rocker was hitting it, but I've not heard of this head modification.

chongrrmc
7th August 2010, 10:10
interesting,.......i thought they were drop ins too, smeone will chime in shortly.

As I did too....Thank You!

onebrkbstrd
7th August 2010, 10:14
The N4's were a drop in for my bike (07 1200) I'm going to assume you'll be good too. If you're worried about it at all, since you're tearing the bike apart anyway, clay and doublecheck clearances before final assembly. I had the same warning on the instructions from my cams, but like so many threads here recommend, I ignored it and slapped them right in.

chongrrmc
7th August 2010, 10:14
I know when I did mine I had to clearance the top valve cover because the rocker was hitting it, but I've not heard of this head modification.

Ok, this is the 2nd time I've heard rocker box needed to be clearanced. IF IF IF this is the head mod they are speaking of, they're in need of better instructions. What year is your bike, and what mods have you done if I might ask? As to compare to what I'm doing. So has anyone else clearanced their rocker boxes for the N4 cams?

KaotikEvo
7th August 2010, 10:19
don't get yer panties all jumbled up just yet, might just be pushrods, i'm cruisin the threads in search, someone will chime in with an answer. it's saturday, the gurus are prolly still havin coffee.

Bruce
7th August 2010, 10:26
Mine is an 02, a little different from yours. Different heads. I also had my heads ported and 1200 valves installed. But fixing the rocker cover was the only problem I had.

rodhotter
7th August 2010, 11:19
thats the best part of buying from NHRS a longtime forum sponsor they build sportys and sell parts too they prolly know EVERYTHING and will ALWAYS help, but some issues need to be looked at in person

xena
7th August 2010, 11:21
Bruce's Sporty is a solid mount as he said,
different heads. Everything I've read on
this forum over the past 6 years has suggested
those cams are the same as the SE497's
and both are bolt-in deals for our rubbermounts.

onebrkbstrd
7th August 2010, 11:45
I ran into this when I wanted to cam my bike and was assured that it was a bolt in. I'm certain the warning from andrews is a cya thing for situations just like this.... on a stock bike they definitely are bolt ins. With the kit going on though.... lots of variables... pistons, gasket thickness, blahblah. The heads however, are not going to need any work to accept the cam.

Folkie
7th August 2010, 16:45
Head modification? Can you link to the sources
you are referring to about the modification?
I was under the impression
those cams were bolt-in and the same as the
SE 497's? Actually been thinking of adding them
to my existing conversion.

Here's a thread that supports what I thought: Clicky (http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=45551)
Yes, the N4s are exactly the same cams as the 497s. They're bolt ins on 1200s, but not necessarily on 883s.

chongrrmc
8th August 2010, 07:02
Ok...I heard back from Andrews themselves. The N4's are NOT just a "bolt in" cam in 2005-2006 883's. Their "head modifications" that they speak of is actually checking the valve-piston clearance. It seems in those years, you'll have to do one of these things.
Get better heads. Not an option here.
Rework the heads and get 1200 valves put in, again not an option here.
Mill out the top of the piston to accept the 883 valves, Won't do that.
Send the N4's back, and get the N3's.

Looks like we'll be going that route.
I just wanted to thank all of you for your inputs. I realize I came on here, not known and just asked away. You all treated me respect, and I'll be passing that word on.
Chong
RoadRunners MC
Wisconsin

Folkie
8th August 2010, 07:42
With stock 883 heads you wouldn't get any benefit from N4s anyway (ie: as compared to N3s).

xena
8th August 2010, 07:54
I'm pretty sure that when installing any
cams you should be checking clearances
but haven't seen any threads on here
where folks with a bread/butter conversion & no
headwork on a rubbermount have run into clearance issues
when installing N4's or SE497's. Not saying
problems aren't possible just sayin. Gd luck
with whatever route u take!

883+
15th September 2010, 08:47
I have N4 cams in my 2006 883 with 1250 kit and STOCK heads. no issues after lots o miles and a few race weekends. no clearance probs but of course yours could be different.

aswracing
15th September 2010, 09:02
There's nothing unique about the 2005-2006 models that gives them less piston to valve clearance than other years.

These are the same people who say in their catalog:

"Late cams marked “D” (‘91 and later) have same specs as “W” cams."

Don't believe everything you hear.

zetaseven
15th September 2010, 18:52
i had a conversion done to my 883 an then went with the andrews n6 cams, valves hit the damn pistons. had to go with the S/E pistons.

Folkie
15th September 2010, 18:58
I wouldn't expect N6s to be bolt ins.

SomewhatLost
16th September 2010, 16:15
I wouldn't expect N6s to be bolt ins.

N6's bolted right into my 883 conversion...

course I got all (or most) of my 'goodies' from dan... that might have something to do with it...

Folkie
16th September 2010, 18:31
N6's bolted right into my 883 conversion...
Stock heads and pistons?

SomewhatLost
16th September 2010, 22:31
Stock heads and pistons?

NRHS everything...

Folkie
17th September 2010, 01:49
The term 'bolt in' hardly applies then. :rolleyes:

SomewhatLost
17th September 2010, 10:35
The term 'bolt in' hardly applies then. :rolleyes:

how so? all the parts bolted in quite effortlessly...
perhaps its just a happy side effect of getting 'matched' parts/or a 'kit' or whatever you want to call it from NRHS...

Folkie
17th September 2010, 11:59
'Bolt in' means that they fit a stock bike, which has stock parts, with no changes.

Just because they can be used with specialized or modified parts doesn't make them 'bolt in'; by that definition, all cams would be bolt in if used with the right parts. :doh

SomewhatLost
17th September 2010, 12:27
by that definition, all cams would be bolt in if used with the right parts. :doh
whats the point of using them with the wrong parts???
seems kind of silly...

Folkie
17th September 2010, 13:47
:rolleyes:

The right parts for many cams (including N6s) are modified or non stock parts. That means they are not 'bolt in' cams.

misterT
17th September 2010, 14:22
I would give up Folkie, his screen name is "somewhat lost"

SomewhatLost
17th September 2010, 14:23
:rolleyes:

The right parts for many cams (including N6s) are modified or non stock parts. That means they are not 'bolt in' cams.
I just can't agree with you there... if you buy all the parts from a shop like NRHS, and they all fit together as one happy assembly, then they are bolt in...
as far as stock vs modified... where do you draw the line? soon as you swap out the stock cams for n2's,3's,etc you are already 'modified'.... so the stock vs modified argument is moot...


I guess we just have different views/outlook/logic/something...

SomewhatLost
17th September 2010, 14:25
I would give up Folkie, his screen name is "somewhat lost"

you may have a valid point there....

also the last part of my sig is very accurate... (well the other parts may be accurate too, but last part is relevant)

Folkie
17th September 2010, 15:21
I just can't agree with you there... if you buy all the parts from a shop like NRHS, and they all fit together as one happy assembly, then they are bolt in...
as far as stock vs modified... where do you draw the line? soon as you swap out the stock cams for n2's,3's,etc you are already 'modified'.... so the stock vs modified argument is moot...


I guess we just have different views/outlook/logic/something...
You're disagreeing with a lot of other people too. 'Bolt in' has a standard definition which everyone else uses and understands. :doh

Where do you draw the line? Cams are bolt in if they can be fitted with everything else stock. That's what 'bolt in' means. To everyone else, anyway. :rolleyes:

Shu
17th September 2010, 15:39
Wow.

Is it possible when Andrews sell those cams thye are not sure if you are putting them in a conversion or over a stock 883 piston? IIRC the 883 pistons valve pockets are a little shallower than the conversion 10:1 pistons you are going to run. I'd have to see some measurements on your stock 883 pistons though to be sure. I have stocker which we could compare. There is nothing different about the 05 and 06 heads to warrant this so it has to be the pistons. Larger diameter valves would make your valve to piston clearance issue worse. There is a 5 to 7 hp gain under 883 heads in a 1200 10:1 conversion from stock cams to SE497 cams. Bolt in mean bolts into a completely stock engine. 883 stock and 1200 stock and 1200 conversion are all very different beasts.