Made in China?

[Lemons]

Recently took part in a market research survey conducted by a well known polling company here in the UK on behalf of HD. During a 45 minute survey one interesting section asked for opinions on HD producing bikes in China, India and Slovakia - anybody else heard any info on this subject?

[MacAttack]

No, but if I do, I'll tell them what I think: I have disposable income (from time to time). I bought an HD in large part because of its heritage. If it isn't from the US, it's not quite the same bike, so I may as well look around. And in that case, a big sport-tourer looks like lots of fun.
Harley's desparate to expand internationally, and it would cost less to produce locally, especially in Chindia. My opinion is that unless they want to leave their niche and compete in the mass market, it would be a mistake to manufacture outside the US.

[NRHS Sales]

If they do want to make a bike in China I would not have a problem with it if if it was a small displacement and designed to be sold in Asia only. That would make financial sense to me. Just don't try to ship manufacturing of their current bikes overseas.

[misterT]

If they do want to make a bike in China I would not have a problem with it if if it was a small displacement and designed to be sold in Asia only. That would make financial sense to me. Just don't try to ship manufacturing of their current bikes overseas. Very good point, though a survey in the UK would imply they are considering exporting them elswhere. Which I think would ruin the brand!

[Lemons]

hadn't thought of Dans point about smaller displacement bikes for sale in asia - I got the distinct impression it was the current model range they were trying to guage opinion on. There were several questions mentioning 750cc engines, also several queries about air cooled over water cooled.

[Tin Man 2]

If a Harley was made in China or India, there would no longer be a reason to buy it. Do people have any buying "morals"?? I still can not believe the number of HD buyers who drive Toyotas and such, where is the rational for this?

[jguynn]

You can already buy helmets made in China at the H-D Stealership and they come in a box with 'Proudly Made in America' as part of the logo. If they are going to lie about that...why not make bikes in China?!?

[fatty883]

Why bitch and complain about made in china, take a look at the items in your house, the clothes on your back, the parts on your American motorcycle. Better yet go shop at Target, Wal-Fart, Everythings -I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!- made in China. Did someone just wake up after a thirty year nap...

[aaandht]

Why bitch and complain about made in china, take a look at the items in your house, the clothes on your back, the parts on your American motorcycle. Better yet go shop at Target, Wal-Fart, Everythings -I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!- made in China. Did someone just wake up after a thirty year nap...

Actually my shirt is USA made(HD shirt I got a year ago). 95% of the parts on my bike are USA made(Battery, JD top clamp, and Horn), and those parts that aren't USA made aren't from China.:smoke

If you look you'll find American made, and at times it is cheaper to buy American! Shopping at the dollar store a few weeks back I found this out.

Just because a large amount of products are made in China doesn't mean we can't push to bring jobs back to our shores.

[fatty883]

I whole-heartedly agree, and I apologize if I come off as brazen...not my intention. I guess I sort of get frustrated at the current state of the world, and should think more before I type. I am apart of the problem, and dont mean to insinuate that I might not be...

[snake oil]

BMW has a factory in Italy that "builds" bikes with Chinese built Rotax and BMW motors for sale world wide, I'm not sure where they assemble them but the parts are cast in China. I also read that Triumph was looking to move some production out of England. I personaly hate the lack of patriotism shown buy big bussiness. Maybe they will reincarnate the Buell Blast and produce it overseas.

[becker76]

ever open your battery box made in chink town

[unfiguroutable]

The HD is not really and hasn't been 100% made in america for decades. It's not the made in mexico POS it was in the late 70s and 80s but it is still far from being a true american. The brake and fuel systems all have multiple parts that are metric...with out even really doing any research I can find a stack of non american parts on my HD

[DEEP DIVER]

Was in a warehouse a few years back,
and in front of the truck I was working on was a big stack of box's
Printed on was

Triumph Motorcycle Exhausts
Made in China

[kevinhd1200]

I think Americans need start taking pride in their country. China owns way too much of our debt, and if you don't want to become slaves to them, start supporting American companies that manufacture in America. 45,000 factories have been shut down in the last two years in America due to outsourcing. There is very little manufacturing going on in our country, and it's going to kill the U.S. We don't produce steel, cell phones, T.V.'s, computers, hardly any cars anymore, musical instruments, etc. We just invent them, and let some third world country produce them, because it's cheaper to manufacture and ship from overseas.

I would tell Harley Davidson to shove it if they started manufacturing and importing their products from overseas. I know it would help their bottom line, but have some f#$%^&% integrity. Really! There is'nt even a major cowboy boot brand that isn't owned by a chinese conglomerat. What the hell do the chinese know about F@#$%!&% cowboy boots?

People in this country had better wake the hell up. Before you know it, the U.S. will be the third world country that we outsource to. I'm going to stop right here, because I'm about to start to get political, but I will repeat the fact that Americans need to start taking pride in their own country once again, and resist the current movement of a new world order. Take everything and give them nothing.

[MacAttack]

I still can not believe the number of HD buyers who drive Toyotas and such, where is the rational for this?
__________________
Bike Painter/Restorer and Aermacchi Nutcase !


Well, Aermacchis are Italian... but anyway - I drive a Toyota; it was made in the old GM plant in Fremont, CA by people I went to high school with.

[kevinhd1200]

Everyone is free to do what they want, and how to spend their money in this country for the time being, but when you buy a foriegn product, you only support the foriegners. Your friends who built your Toyota were paid by their foreign bosses who pocketed their profits in their foreign pockets. I know people need jobs to live, and we will work for anyone who's paying. I don't blame the workers, I blame our American government who does not look out for the common man U.S. citizen through horrible trade deals, and lower tariffs on foreign goods. NAFTA is the worst treaty that could have ever been drafted, let alone implemented. PLEASE support American companies that manufacture in America.

[Gone]

If a Harley was made in China or India, there would no longer be a reason to buy it. Do people have any buying "morals"?? I still can not believe the number of HD buyers who drive Toyotas and such, where is the rational for this?

Because they last a hell of alot longer and are better quality.

[kevinhd1200]

How many recalls did Toyota have last year? Now Nissan is recalling a number of models including Infinity from 2002-2006. Are the jap cars really that much better? I don't think so. If thats the way you think, how come you own a Harley Davidson and not a jap cruiser bike? The Honda Shadow 750cc looks a lot like the Sportster your on.

[unfiguroutable]

... China owns way too much of our debt ... 45,000 factories have been shut down in the last two years... We don't produce steel... We just invent them, and let some third world country produce them, because it's cheaper to manufacture.

Well it is the trouble with basing your society on economics. We have the right to pursue happness without the garentee of recieving it. Who knew that so much of the worls would be willing to work for so little. China and other nations will likely go throught a similar proccess to the west. That is they will have some sort of labor movment to reuduce human right vilations and earn fair pay for work. They will experience an ever increasing standard of living as the decades go by. Eventually it will cost just as much to make a toy in china as it does in the US.

[kevinhd1200]

Unfiguroutable,

Your right. Everything revolves around money. And making the most profit is part of capitalism, so where does one draw the line? Somehow the U.S. needs to bring back manufacturing to America. Maybe through tax incentives, or limiting labor unions so that they aren't raping the taxpayer. Something has to give. Our country is being destroyed by outsourcing and foreign products.

[bshadbolt]

Following is a cut and paste from an article discussing job losses in the US and the real impact:

"When you look at the big picture, what emerges is an overwhelmingly positive impact of trade on U.S. jobs. On the negative side are the manufacturing jobs that are moving from the U.S. to foreign countries as the U.S. comparative advantage shifts to higher value added, higher productivity, and higher wage sectors. Other manufacturing jobs are gained, but the net effect for manufacturing is probably negative. The positive side, however, is overwhelming:

* U.S. jobs attributable to the process of importing;
* Jobs gained by foreign investment in the U.S.;
* Jobs gained in the U.S. financial services sector handling the capital account flows; and
* U.S. government jobs financed by foreign purchases of U.S. government bonds (a positive at least for those who favor big government).

Not even considered in any of this are the beneficial effects on American consumers and manufacturers from the lower prices they pay for imported goods."

The full article is here: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/03/china-job-loss-claims-miss-the-big-picture

Here's a link to another article discussing job losses in China - with unemployment to forecast to rise by 31 million people - that's an increase of 31 million, not total unemployed. http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/28922/20100616/china-cicc-job-losses-2011-temporary-jobs.htm

The true unemployment rate in China is difficult to calculate because they don't count unemployed rural residents - only people 'officially' registered as urban residents and 'officially' unemployed get counted. There are hundreds of millions of people who are 'illegally' living in cities and either working or looking for work - I say illegally because Chinese people don't have the right to live where they want, they have to apply for permits to move from city to city or from rural areas to urban areas and most rural unskilled workers cannot get official permits to move to urban areas and thus are simply not counted in the statistics. If you don't officially live in an urban area, you don't exist when it comes to Chinese statistics. The official unemployment rate of about 4.5% grossly understates the real situation - the real figures is more like 20% or somewhere between 150 million to 200 million unemployed.

I've seen this first-hand, having lived and worked in Asia (with a strong focus on China) for the last 17 years.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,

Brett

[snowman]

I agree with most everything said here...:geek:geek:geek

I just thought the survey was in reference to Harley building in India and China to sell their products there...

[richard58]

I think if Harley goes over the waves, their core riders will just keep what they got and theold bikes will just climb in price. Harley sells bikes but I have heard that they r actually in the upgrade business from how people change their bikes around...lots of money made there over and over. Just like a car dealership makes more money on repair work then they do selling the vehicle.....if they do sellout the americans im through with harley and probably go with the victory brand then....still american built...

[aaandht]

Well it is the trouble with basing your society on economics. We have the right to pursue happness without the garentee of recieving it. Who knew that so much of the worls would be willing to work for so little. China and other nations will likely go throught a similar proccess to the west. That is they will have some sort of labor movment to reuduce human right vilations and earn fair pay for work. They will experience an ever increasing standard of living as the decades go by. Eventually it will cost just as much to make a toy in china as it does in the US.

Then the manufacturing will move to the next 3rd world country and the process will start over again.

As far as Toyota's lasting longer....Take a look at any American or German made car that is 10 years old, look under the hood. See a little bit of rust. Now look at a 5 year old Japanese car. Looks like someone stuffed it at the bottom of a salt water bath. Sorry Japanese car's don't have the same quality standards as American cars when it comes to metals used.

[kevinhd1200]

bshadbolt,

Why should the U.S. even need foreign investment to create jobs? Why should the U.S. have to import goods? Do you want to be beholen to foreign governments who own our debt in the form of bonds? This is my point. we will be a part of the "new world order" when we can't make good on the bonds owned by foreign investors, and our dollar crunches. We let china control 95% of the precious metals in the world.-Why?

At one time the U.S. was the most powerful nation in the world, and self sufficient. Now we depend on cheap labor and crappy products. Remember Curtis Mathis Televisions or when Cheverolet really wasn't Isuzu? Our government subsidizes our farmers not to grow food so the other countries in the world can sell their crops. We take all kinds of crap from Saudi Arabia for their oil, and they still support anti American sentiment. Why should we?

We elected all of the bleeding heart, anti-war, marxist, hippies from the sixties into positions of power in the U.S. and where has it gotten' us. It's left the U.S. bankrupt and powerless in the name of political correctness and socialism. My 86 year old neighbor laughs about how he'll be dead and people my age and younger are going to have to live through this mess or clean it up. The U.S. needs it's people to start believing in their country. From the CEO's of major corporations down to the consumer/common folk. We need citizens to start investing and taking a vested interest in our country. Not foreign governments.

By the way, I don't care how many unemployed there are in china. I live in the United States of America. I will not reply to this thread anymore, because i've already become too political. I encourage people to think about their country of the U.S.A. and try to help make it become what it once was. The greatest country in the world.

[AsSeenOnTV]

^ I think I just fell in love! ^

[kevinhd1200]

As Seen On T.V.,

I'm glad you agree. I knew there were some true Americans out there. I sometimes get on my soapbox and really spout off. I could have gone on for days. There is so much going on with our country that really bothers me. I will always say the way the nation is now is not the nation I was born into. I have real trouble trying to figure out where our country made a left turn (pun intended). I guess I lied about not replying to this thread anymore.

[aaandht]

I also laugh at how many tree hugging hippies love buying crap from China...especially "green" products.

China is probably the biggest toxic waste dump now thanks to its manufacturing. There is no EPA, Labor Laws, etc etc. I'm far from a tree hugging hippie liberal, but I don't support children working in sweat shops nor do I support dumping chemicals in the local lake. Hence, I buy as little Chinese crap as possible.

[aaandht]

As Seen On T.V.,

I'm glad you agree. I knew there were some true Americans out there. I sometimes get on my soapbox and really spout off. I could have gone on for days. There is so much going on with our country that really bothers me. I will always say the way the nation is now is not the nation I was born into. I have real trouble trying to figure out where our country made a left turn (pun intended).

Over "educated" college students?

[Shotgun]

If a Harley was made in China or India, there would no longer be a reason to buy it. Do people have any buying "morals"?? I still can not believe the number of HD buyers who drive Toyotas and such, where is the rational for this?

Same here. I have never owned a foreign car.

[kevinhd1200]

aaandht,

No. I'm not an over educated college student. I'm a 40 year old CNC Machinist, who is anti Ried, Pelosi, Obama, and anti communist. -Smart ass.

[Baphomet]

Wow, does that mean I can buy my next Harley-Davidson at Walmart?

[Shotgun]

aaandht,

No. I'm not an over educated college student. I'm a 40 year old CNC Machinist, who is anti Ried, Pelosi, Obama, and anti communist. -Smart ass.

43 year old service technician here who is anti Ried, Pelosi, Obama, and anti communist..... :clap

[aaandht]

aaandht,

No. I'm not an over educated college student. I'm a 40 year old CNC Machinist, who is anti Ried, Pelosi, Obama, and anti communist. -Smart ass.

I think you misunderstood my comment....

I meant this country took a hard left due to the over "educated" generation.

I hold your beliefs, however college students like myself are in the minority. I feel because many have never had a real job. Tax dollars coming out of your paycheck mean a bit more to you when you're putting blood sweat and tears into your work. That money also means more to you and you take pride in what you spend it on, and you don't let it go easily.

[Recon Dad]

No way will I buy a Harley made in China. I quit buying clothes and boots when they moved then.

It's time to buy up a pan or shovel head. I will pay a premium for then.

I had a 1960 XLCH that was built by an Unauthorized Harley Dealer in Beaufort, South Carolina. It took a half hour of kick starting to get it going but always brought a smile to my face.

[kevinhd1200]

aaandht,

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I hope you will accept it. You are right in saying that when you really work hard for a living those tax dollars are a hard bite out of that paycheck. I hope you will really accept my apology.

[AsSeenOnTV]

Over "educated" college students?

Or uneducated voters who only want to be breast fed from the government

[jjw]

Aside from the 'Political aspect' of China producing HD, I have a small
welding shop where I repair aluminum Lower units (cast Aluminum) for boat engines.
It seems Mercury Marine is having China cast some of their lowers. I got a 2010 lower in the other day to fit a new skeg on and it's almost unweldable.
Some of the worst quality aluminum cast I've seen since the AMF days.:doh

Side note: SF just scored again 2-0 bottom of the 7th :D

[kevinhd1200]

As Seen On T.V.,

EXACTLY!

[AsSeenOnTV]

Side note: SF just scored again 2-0 bottom of the 7th :D

Boooooooooooooooooo

[kevinhd1200]

come on Rangers!

[aaandht]

aaandht,

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I hope you will accept it. You are right in saying that when you really work hard for a living those tax dollars are a hard bite out of that paycheck. I hope you will really accept my apology.

No problem man.:cheers

Sorry as seen on TV, I think the more people get book educated the dumber they get.

There is a cool book I bought while in NYC a few weeks back. "Shop-craft as soul craft", I saw the old BMW air head on the cover and picked it up and started to read it. Really cool book, haven't gotten too far into it, but its basically about how as we have started to become more book educated and lost touch with hands on education(blue collar work) people have gotten lazier and dumber.

[AsSeenOnTV]

No problem man.:cheers

Sorry as seen on TV, I think the more people get book educated the dumber they get.

There is a cool book I bought while in NYC a few weeks back. "Shop-craft as soul craft", I saw the old BMW air head on the cover and picked it up and started to read it. Really cool book, haven't gotten too far into it, but its basically about how as we have started to become more book educated and lost touch with hands on education(blue collar work) people have gotten lazier and dumber.

I agree on that, but mostly because the 'over educated elites ' who think they are above all of us read from books that are written by marxists, or because they ignore real history and just believe in make pretend history as written and taught by the same 'over educated elitists'

If you read truth in books, and not lies, then nothing wrong with that i believe

[Gone]

How many recalls did Toyota have last year? Now Nissan is recalling a number of models including Infinity from 2002-2006. Are the jap cars really that much better? I don't think so. If thats the way you think, how come you own a Harley Davidson and not a jap cruiser bike? The Honda Shadow 750cc looks a lot like the Sportster your on.

stfu.

[Tulsaghost]

Recently took part in a market research survey conducted by a well known polling company here in the UK on behalf of HD. During a 45 minute survey one interesting section asked for opinions on HD producing bikes in China, India and Slovakia - anybody else heard any info on this subject?
It is why the Chinese are owed trillions of dollars, the west manufactures very little anymore, it is all offshored to "save money"...but the savings never seem to hit the consumer..hmmmmmm

[Tulsaghost]

Same here. I have never owned a foreign car.
most cars are assembled now..the ex big 3 models are up to 50% parts built out of country and assembled in the US...

[Tulsaghost]

I think Americans need start taking pride in their country. China owns way too much of our debt, and if you don't want to become slaves to them, start supporting American companies that manufacture in America. 45,000 factories have been shut down in the last two years in America due to outsourcing. There is very little manufacturing going on in our country, and it's going to kill the U.S. We don't produce steel, cell phones, T.V.'s, computers, hardly any cars anymore, musical instruments, etc. We just invent them, and let some third world country produce them, because it's cheaper to manufacture and ship from overseas.

I would tell Harley Davidson to shove it if they started manufacturing and importing their products from overseas. I know it would help their bottom line, but have some f#$%^&% integrity. Really! There is'nt even a major cowboy boot brand that isn't owned by a chinese conglomerat. What the hell do the chinese know about F@#$%!&% cowboy boots?

People in this country had better wake the hell up. Before you know it, the U.S. will be the third world country that we outsource to. I'm going to stop right here, because I'm about to start to get political, but I will repeat the fact that Americans need to start taking pride in their own country once again, and resist the current movement of a new world order. Take everything and give them nothing.
It isn't because everybody wants to buy manufactured items made overseas, the companies are pushed, by the stcklholders, to make more profits for better dividends.

Management makes the decision to move the manufacturing to China, Indonesia, Mexico, Viet Nam, SLovakia, Bulgaria, etc, etc, etc. Manufacturing costs go down, profits go up because the price point stays the same.

Once we become a complete service economy it wont matter, because all of us making 8 dollars an hour wont be able to afford to buy anything.

Untill large corporations get a different model of business we are all -I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!--I LUV XLF!-o-ed

[Tulsaghost]

I still can not believe the number of HD buyers who drive Toyotas and such, where is the rational for this?
__________________
Bike Painter/Restorer and Aermacchi Nutcase !


Well, Aermacchis are Italian... but anyway - I drive a Toyota; it was made in the old GM plant in Fremont, CA by people I went to high school with.
The rationale is what you get for your dollar, while America was producing crappy gas-guzzling POS autos that were unreliable the big 3 Japanese auto manufacturers were building quality vehicles. Now they have the reputation of being better built, true or not, and people are JUST now buying more American again. Frod is now rated in the top 5 for reliabilty..

And why is it, whenever these discussions start it is Jap this and Chink that, how many of you all own German, English or Italian vehicle..last I checked, none of those places were in America(Tho..England is our BEST colony!! hahahahahaha)

[Tulsaghost]

.
Again..why are DUcatis ok..but Hondas aren't?

[Tulsaghost]

Following is a cut and paste from an article discussing job losses in the US and the real impact:

"When you look at the big picture, what emerges is an overwhelmingly positive impact of trade on U.S. jobs. On the negative side are the manufacturing jobs that are moving from the U.S. to foreign countries as the U.S. comparative advantage shifts to higher value added, higher productivity, and higher wage sectors. Other manufacturing jobs are gained, but the net effect for manufacturing is probably negative. The positive side, however, is overwhelming:

* U.S. jobs attributable to the process of importing;
* Jobs gained by foreign investment in the U.S.;
* Jobs gained in the U.S. financial services sector handling the capital account flows; and
* U.S. government jobs financed by foreign purchases of U.S. government bonds (a positive at least for those who favor big government).

Not even considered in any of this are the beneficial effects on American consumers and manufacturers from the lower prices they pay for imported goods."

The full article is here: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/03/china-job-loss-claims-miss-the-big-picture

Here's a link to another article discussing job losses in China - with unemployment to forecast to rise by 31 million people - that's an increase of 31 million, not total unemployed. http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/28922/20100616/china-cicc-job-losses-2011-temporary-jobs.htm

The true unemployment rate in China is difficult to calculate because they don't count unemployed rural residents - only people 'officially' registered as urban residents and 'officially' unemployed get counted. There are hundreds of millions of people who are 'illegally' living in cities and either working or looking for work - I say illegally because Chinese people don't have the right to live where they want, they have to apply for permits to move from city to city or from rural areas to urban areas and most rural unskilled workers cannot get official permits to move to urban areas and thus are simply not counted in the statistics. If you don't officially live in an urban area, you don't exist when it comes to Chinese statistics. The official unemployment rate of about 4.5% grossly understates the real situation - the real figures is more like 20% or somewhere between 150 million to 200 million unemployed.

I've seen this first-hand, having lived and worked in Asia (with a strong focus on China) for the last 17 years.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,

Brett
***Not even considered in any of this are the beneficial effects on American consumers and manufacturers from the lower prices they pay for imported goods.****

Well when the 25 dollar an hour manufacturing job goies overseas, and you have to get a 10 dollar an hour service industry job..what can you really buy?

**** Jobs gained in the U.S. financial services sector handling the capital account flows; *****

Making money from moving money around...hmmm....sounds like the old trickle down economic theory. Those people will buy their shoes from yyou in your 8 dollar an hour job as a salesman at a shoe store....

[CB160]

I just got an H/D T-shirt from a friend in England. It was made in the USA. I also sent him back an H/D T-shirt from Cali...(I'm ashamed to say it was made in Mexico-I didn't check before I purchased)...so WTF is up with that? I've also just checked the labels on others that I've been sent...Mexico/Nicaragua, a gifted coffee cup from China??
So much for Made in the USA....I drive American 'branded' cars..and one American 'branded' bike but who knows where the parts were made?
It's all goin' down the tubes, it would seem.....glad I've only got about 20 yrs left.... ;)

[kevinhd1200]

I think I pissed off "king tony".

[jimmyess333]

I still can not believe the number of HD buyers who drive Toyotas and such, where is the rational for this?
__________________
Bike Painter/Restorer and Aermacchi Nutcase !


Well, Aermacchis are Italian... but anyway - I drive a Toyota; it was made in the old GM plant in Fremont, CA by people I went to high school with.

I ride a HD and own a Toyota.
The yota was a freebie hand me down but nonetheless sits right next to my late model Ford Ranger.
As far as vehicles go, America lost the foothold in the 70's when the prices went up while quality went WAY down.
Now that America is making better cars it's just too little/too late.
To make matters worse, badge engineering has made it so you don't know WHAT you are buying anymore. Your American car could be really Korean, Japanese, or from anywhere in the world.
I'd like to buy American as much as anyone(and I try) but I don't want to THINK I'm buying American only to be buying a Korean car or a car half built with cheap Chinese parts. I'd rather just get a Japanese car and know what quality I'm getting. I'm sure the Japanese will incorporate more and more Chinese gargage into their vehicles over time.
My statement to american vehicle builders: make a simple, affordable, and reliable vehicle HERE and I will be loyal to you.(preferrably rear wheel drive) WHAT IS SO HARD ABOUT THAT?

[tich]

I like free enterprise & competition.
It is easy to see how the competituion betwean companys and nations have given us more reliable bikes and cars along with a host of improvements in performance and should be comended.
BUT this aint a just a game. We (The west) have misplayed. The last nation to become industrlised and Hi tech is likly to be the winner with most of the manafacturing in thair sphere of influance.
If the UK/ US were race teams, we may choose to opt out for a while to consolidate and then compete on a more equal footing.
One of the deciding factors in finishing WW2 was USA industrial might.
Chinas prices will raise and thair conditions improve but by then the skill base in the west will be lost.
I fear we have , in the UK at least, past the point of no return.
Without punitive import duties (That would lower our standard of living considerably) I can not forssee foundries and large manafacturing complexes being built here.

[steelworker]

(Tho..England is our BEST colony!! hahahahahaha)

51st state! :laugh:laugh

[misterT]

The company i work for just pulled out of Dalian China because of the overwhelming quality problems. Some equipment is made in Taiwan but they also just bought a manufacturing plant in Poland. They are also having some of the equipment made in Ohio, though we have not seen the first production run yet. China is still a huge threat but they cant do anything right just like performance ( fast,-reliable or cheap). They build it fast and cheap NEVER reliable and they are to concerned with saving face to correct any problems. Tell them about a problem the responce is always"you a do not unerstand a you a need a more learning, LEARNING,LEARNING O.K. no problem!

[BWP 5p]

I think I pissed off "king tony".

:laugh:laugh:laugh Seems he needs to chill a bit:doh:frownthre:frownthre
The King may not last long on here if he gets his feathers ruffled that easy!:doh:laugh:laugh:laugh

[BWP 5p]

I like free enterprise & competition.
It is easy to see how the competituion betwean companys and nations have given us more reliable bikes and cars along with a host of improvements in performance and should be comended.
BUT this aint a just a game. We (The west) have misplayed. The last nation to become industrlised and Hi tech is likly to be the winner with most of the manafacturing in thair sphere of influance.
If the UK/ US were race teams, we may choose to opt out for a while to consolidate and then compete on a more equal footing.
One of the deciding factors in finishing WW2 was USA industrial might.Chinas prices will raise and thair conditions improve but by then the skill base in the west will be lost.
I fear we have , in the UK at least, past the point of no return.
Without punitive import duties (That would lower our standard of living considerably) I can not forssee foundries and large manafacturing complexes being built here.

Excellent post Tich:clap:clap:clap
I recently read an article that showed how many actual companies the US had lost in the past 5-10 years and it was staggering. Manufacturing is the lifeblood of a country. The city I grew up in was once a "factory town" with many plants and about 50,000 mostly middle class folks. Now it's mostly warehousing or logistics companies that pay about $12/hour......and a population of maybe 30,000........and appears to be rapidly heading to very low class folks and high crime! Quite a trade off!

[AsSeenOnTV]

I think I pissed off "king tony".



Let him eat cake!

[n8dawg6]

i remember being a little shocked the 1st time i walked into an HD shop and noticed that all of the clothing, many accessories, etc. are made in china. all the gloves, boots, jackets ... everything that i looked at, made in china. then i later found out that the boots i had on were made in china. after a bunch of emotional agony, i finally came to the conclusion that i still love the boots. stuff made in china comes in varying grades of quality these days, and some of it is pretty good. that still doesn't mean i have to like it

just my opinion, but if HD is already openly selling a bunch of chinese-made stuff in their stores, they're not going to have qualms about outsourcing some bikes or parts of bikes over there.

BTW, even BMW is assembling the engine for their base 650 model in china now. manufacturers trying to meet a price point end up going to china for the cheap labor. im not sure how to reverse the trend, other than the vast majority of people changing their buying habits (buy fewer, more expensive things instead of more numerous, cheaper things)

[Tulsaghost]

51st state! :laugh:laugh
But a quality state..I would trade England for Mississippi ANY day

[Rico 05R]

Again..why are DUcatis ok..but Hondas aren't?

I never said anything about Honda's or any other bike not being OK.

[Unbalanced]

Regarding the driving a Toyota and riding a Harley thing - I have a Jeep and two Ford's in my garage, but it has nothing to do with brand loyalty or buying American. I've owned about 20 cars including Ford, Jeep, Datsun/Nissan, Honda, Toyota, BMW and Volvo and the style and feeling of driving them just doesn't sell me much on American made. I bought an American made bike because it's more of an enjoyment device than an appliance to get me from A to B. On a bike I'm willing to spend a little more to get what I really want, and I enjoy the raw experience of a Harley even if it's not the most comfortable whereas for a car I want something inexpensive, quiet, comfortable, efficient, and dead reliable - and until the last 5 years or so that has mostly excluded domestic offerings. And I don't buy many cars less than 5 years old so I'm still buying based on what was offered 5 years or more ago.


So I guess that's to say I buy American when I can but I won't pay more for an inferior product just because it says Ford or Chevy. I drove a Ford Focus the other day, was NOT impressed...come to find out they're built in Mexico.



Oh, and I'm gun-toting anti-Pelosi/Reid/Obama with a 4 year college education...if anything I think I got MORE right-leaning in college.

[srrice40]

You know you can be a Tree-hugging Greenie and still have the same values as you aspouse, I am a leftie hippie and I don't agree with this crap made in china! I get so sick of the so called righties with there conservative values it makes me wanna puke! I am a proud gun owner and I own an american Car, it's a jeep and it has 193k miles on it and it will probably go another 100k easily! and I have two harley's in my Garage, I never shop at Wally world and I don't depend on Credit Cards for my livelyhood, if I can't buy it with cash I aint buying it!
I spent 7 years in the Military and worked with my hands on Jets and Helicopters and I work for Boeing building 747's, 767's, 57's and 37's but I went back to school and got an education and now I program for a living.
I hate all politics and all politicians especially the ones who try to rape the middle class! so don't be putting no labels on people, I resent it and looks like your stereotyping. I love my Country and I gave 7 years for it.

Now Why Can't Harley build the Bikes here for the Chinese and export them, what the Hell is so hard about that?????:doh

[r4fthrs]

Over "educated" college students?

I would counter that it is more `Poorly' educated college students. I say this because I used to teach at a college and was disturbed by the number of left wing nut cases (professors) that were pedaling their vacuous dribble to these clueless kids willing to drink their coolaid. The left figured out early that by implanting themselves in education they could rewrite history (and facts) and shape the world to their distorted view.

It is happening in our public schools, pick up a text on US history and look at their definitions as to the meaning of the Constitution, as to the reasons for the arguement between Federalism vs. States rights, etc.. Parents need to be a part of the process in their kids education and counter this misinformation.

As far as business goes (origonal topic), as long as the labor cost soar (unions, government regulations, health care), increasing business regulations & costs (EPA, fair trade (oxymoron), Cap & trade, OSHA, etc.), increasing business taxes & permits, you will see continued business flight to foriegn countries for them to be competitive in the market. The consumer is only one factor in the overall equation.

(stepping down from soapbox now)

[biknut]

Don't blame China. Blame America for having high taxes, high insurance costs, and expensive government regulations. Under these conditions I'm glad everything is made in China because if it was made here I wouldn't be able to afford anything.

On top of that, the quality of many Chinese made products is so good now there's not much to complain about anymore.

[aaandht]

I put educated in quotes to show that many students(more-so outside of engineering and sciences) don't get real education just a large amount of left-wing brainwashing.

[Tulsaghost]

bshadbolt,

Why should the U.S. even need foreign investment to create jobs? Why should the U.S. have to import goods? Do you want to be beholen to foreign governments who own our debt in the form of bonds? This is my point. we will be a part of the "new world order" when we can't make good on the bonds owned by foreign investors, and our dollar crunches. We let china control 95% of the precious metals in the world.-Why?

At one time the U.S. was the most powerful nation in the world, and self sufficient. Now we depend on cheap labor and crappy products. Remember Curtis Mathis Televisions or when Cheverolet really wasn't Isuzu? Our government subsidizes our farmers not to grow food so the other countries in the world can sell their crops. We take all kinds of crap from Saudi Arabia for their oil, and they still support anti American sentiment. Why should we?

We elected all of the bleeding heart, anti-war, marxist, hippies from the sixties into positions of power in the U.S. and where has it gotten' us. It's left the U.S. bankrupt and powerless in the name of political correctness and socialism. My 86 year old neighbor laughs about how he'll be dead and people my age and younger are going to have to live through this mess or clean it up. The U.S. needs it's people to start believing in their country. From the CEO's of major corporations down to the consumer/common folk. We need citizens to start investing and taking a vested interest in our country. Not foreign governments.

By the way, I don't care how many unemployed there are in china. I live in the United States of America. I will not reply to this thread anymore, because i've already become too political. I encourage people to think about their country of the U.S.A. and try to help make it become what it once was. The greatest country in the world.
BTW kevin, right wing reactionary conservatives made the statement "offshoring jobs was good for the American Economy"...not the marxist liberals....

[r4fthrs]

I put educated in quotes to show that many students(more-so outside of engineering and sciences) don't get real education just a large amount of left-wing brainwashing.

I guess `Indoctrinated' would have been more precise (and I know I'm largely preaching to the choir). I wasn't so much replying against your comment but picking up the ball and running with it. It is a passionate subject for me as the world today alarms me as I wonder what future it holds for my children.

[mrkocol]

I say this in all sincerity and mean no disrespect: You could easily take any of the left-bashing arguments in this thread, replace the word "left" with "right", and not only would the argument be exactly the same, it would be just as true. The fault of the state of this country lies with Republicans and Democrats alike. Fact: historically, both had a hand in supporting deregulation and cheap labor. All this left/right red/blue win/lose best/worst nonsense really doesn't solve anything and is just a distraction.

People have to make decisions for themselves based on their own values. Don't want to buy imported products? Then don't. Think imported products are superior? Go for it. I think the main thing is to not be wasteful and buy crap you don't need with money you don't have. Want to get the country back on track? That's the way everyone can take part in, no matter your political leanings.

And I agree with snowman; I assumed it was about H-D building bikes in those countries for sale there. One's opinion on that could vary depending on whether one supports the import/export of products.

[Tulsaghost]

Or uneducated voters who only want to be breast fed from the government
as a matter of fact, historically, undereducated tend to be more conservative. The rich , college educated have the time to foment revolution, the working man is too bust trying to feed his family.

[Tulsaghost]

I would counter that it is more `Poorly' educated college students. I say this because I used to teach at a college and was disturbed by the number of left wing nut cases (professors) that were pedaling their vacuous dribble to these clueless kids willing to drink their coolaid. The left figured out early that by implanting themselves in education they could rewrite history (and facts) and shape the world to their distorted view.

It is happening in our public schools, pick up a text on US history and look at their definitions as to the meaning of the Constitution, as to the reasons for the arguement between Federalism vs. States rights, etc.. Parents need to be a part of the process in their kids education and counter this misinformation.

As far as business goes (origonal topic), as long as the labor cost soar (unions, government regulations, health care), increasing business regulations & costs (EPA, fair trade (oxymoron), Cap & trade, OSHA, etc.), increasing business taxes & permits, you will see continued business flight to foriegn countries for them to be competitive in the market. The consumer is only one factor in the overall equation.

(stepping down from soapbox now)
So you would advocate the American work force be as underpaid and ill educated as the Chinese..to bring down business costs? The workers won't need healthcare..when they die, the next generation of uneducated peasantry can fill their job.

[aaandht]

As soon as the majority of voters see that the two partys are one in the same, the country will begin to heal. Until then, hold on for the ride.

[Tulsaghost]

As soon as the majority of voters see that the two partys are one in the same, the country will begin to heal. Until then, hold on for the ride.
and the lack of any kind of compromise, from either side of the aisle. Once we had political Giants in this country, now we have pea brained midgets, both sides of the aisle, I once read some where we get the government we deserve.

[aaandht]

as a matter of fact, historically, undereducated tend to be more conservative. The rich , college educated have the time to foment revolution, the working man is too bust trying to feed his family.

B.A. of music is also college educated is it not? Many many college educated students have taken useless majors just to get that piece of paper saying they have gone to college. Has it made them any more intelligent than a blue collar worker who has just graduated high school? I don't think so. They have just been bombarded with extremely liberal thoughts that have told them anything resembling conservatism is evil.

[tich]

How about ethical import standards?
Chckens from abroad to have the same welfare standard as from inside the national borderers or we dont import the eggs!
Same for meat industry and workers conditions in manafacturing.
It creates a level playing field and promotes ethical capitilisam world wide.
Protectionisam for ethical reasans.
Just an idea, wot ya think?

[mrkocol]

B.A. of music is also college educated is it not? Many many college educated students have taken useless majors just to get that piece of paper saying they have gone to college.

For the record, I am a non-college educated music composer, but have studied and created music professionally on my own for a combined 25 years. I never quite "took" to the classroom environment. However, I will say that major cannot be "useless" to the musician who felt it necessary to further his/her career goals. I guess it depends on if you find being a musician a "useless" career goal, which it isn't to people who are serious about it.

Has it made them any more intelligent than a blue collar worker who has just graduated high school? I don't think so.

You must study other material that isn't music-related in order to achieve a B.A., but the potential of knowing more about the trade -- as well as the other material you studied -- is higher than for someone who did not go through the training. That is just logical reasoning.

They have just been bombarded with extremely liberal thoughts that have told them anything resembling conservatism is evil.

I am going to assume you're not being general about college education here and this is still related to the B.A. in music. While I did not go to a four year, the several one-off college courses I did take had no political leanings whatsoever. It would have been irrelevant to the material being taught.

[Robotech]

Wow...what a debate. :) I miss this stuff. Truely, I do, from my college days.

Republican or Democrate...which am I? By the end of this I'll give you the answer.

In my possession are three vehicles, none of them newer than 7 years old. One is a 1997 Pontiac Grand Prix with over 180K on the clock. The next is my 1999 Sportie (R.I.P.) with 24K on it. Up next is my 2004 GMC Sierra Pickup...the work horse...with 122K on it. NONE of them have done anything to leave me on the side of the road that have been because of their design or build quality (meaning I did something to cause it...). The Grand Prix has been driven numberous miles with damaged pistons (which happens when you take a 240 flywheel horsepower engine and bump it up to over 400 wheel horsepower...talk about your learning curve.) and never left me stranded. The truck has been nothing but fuel, oil and tires for the entire 90K miles I've had it for. The Harley, when I did the work on it myself, never needed anything more than that either.

Now I've owned three foriegn cars, all German. Two classic bugs ('63 and '64) and one BMW ('88). The bugs had issues from age and neglect so I don't count them. I had the BMW for under a year and had it strand me by the side of the road twice. It also had less than 100K on the clock. I had three electrical fires in it. My parents have owned four foriegn cars. Three Honda Accords bought new (82, 86, and 90) and now my mother has a Lexus LS400 (2000) also bought new. The 82 and 86 Hondas had no problems but were traded in with 40k on the clocks. The 90 was given to my ex-wife while we were married and required a new window regulator and left her stranded on the road once with a bad radiator. Brakes on all the Hondas were horrible and required replacement at 20-30K miles (my truck, 122K, still has the brakes it had when I bought it 90K miles ago!). Many times the rotors were so shot they had to be replaced as well. The Lexus has left my mother stranded twice. Once it was a starter problem that, while under warranty, require the entire engine to be removed from the vehicle to replace it.

Someone please explain to me where all this "foriegn reliability" B.S. comes from? In 25 years of driving I have yet to see it. My Pontiac's engine, a 3.8L pushrod V6 whose technology dates back to the 60s, was voted one of the 100 best engines of ALL TIME. Considering what I've put it through, and the car runs 12 flat in the 1/4 easily, I'd have to agree. You can't kill this engine.

We bulid better, but not cheaper. The American consumer, however, wants cheaper, not better. Until that changes, say good-bye to American manufacturing. On the other hand, in the late 1800s the industrial revolution changed everything about the way the world worked. We're going through a similar revolution now.

Welcome to the world post Computer-revolution. Today, Information Technology is the new Industrial Giant. Too bad we're not leaders in that either.

As for my earlier question, neither...I was registered Reformist until that party went belly up and am now just an independant.

[kevinhd1200]

Republican or Democrat=the same bag of S@#$.

[Unbalanced]

Robotech - I understand how your foreign car experiences would have led you to that conclusion and I don't fault you for it. My experience has just been different.

European cars (Volvo and BMW) have left a sour taste in my mouth, having stranded me on multiple occasions and having a lot of little problems that leave the vehicle drivable but are annoying and expensive.

The only Japanese car that's stranded me was my Datsun 280Z - one was a cheap aftermarket fuel pump and the other was a leaking 30 year old rubber fuel line. My Toyota needed a clutch at 140k. Honda needed nothing. Lexus had an annoying electrical issue that I traced to a broken wire where the harness went from the body to the trunklid.

My Ford's have left me stranded. My F-150 had an ignition switch actuator rod fall apart inside the steering column stranding my wife at the bank. My Taurus SHO stranded me several times when the ignition module was acting up and nobody could figure it out. My Bronco II hasn't stranded me yet but that's because I don't trust it enough to take me anywhere but short errands...it's possibly the most unreliable vehicle I've ever owned.

My 2005 Jeep hasn't stranded me but it does suffer from some serious engineering/design flaws.

[Unbalanced]

Republican or Democrat=the same bag of S@#$.


yep.

I call myself a Libertarian but I'm registered Republican so I can vote in their primary elections.

[Shu]

I doubt HD would ask the UK owners their feelings of production in the far east unless their intention was to sell those bikes world wide. This shows that even the proud USA hold outs like HD recognize they are losing the battle. Sad indeed.

I'll refrain from much comment on what is wrong with the country and politics as this isn't the politics section except to say that I have always heard that regardless of what we all like to think, our goverment is a reflection of the majority of the population. That thought is very saddening to me with the way things are today in the state capitols and Washington DC.

[AsSeenOnTV]

as a matter of fact, historically, undereducated tend to be more conservative. The rich , college educated have the time to foment revolution, the working man is too bust trying to feed his family.

Actually the undereducated I was referring to are the big city breast fed welfare recipients that are the base of the democratic party that couldnt tell you who is what in congress or the senate, but only vote D to get that check.

[MacAttack]

"We elected all of the bleeding heart, anti-war, marxist, hippies from the sixties into positions of power in the U.S. and where has it gotten' us. It's left the U.S. bankrupt and powerless in the name of political correctness and socialism. "

Actually, I'm sorry, but that was unfettered CAPITALISM that did this. It was REAGAN who killed the unions - after he gutted California's mental-health system, increased the cost of public education, and increased prison spending.

[MacAttack]

"Actually the undereducated I was referring to are the big city breast fed welfare recipients that are the base of the democratic party that couldnt tell you who is what in congress or the senate, but only vote D to get that check."

Those people are a fantasy. Republicans are of two main groups: The top 2%, and a chunk of the bottom 30%, whom they've convinced to join them. The Democratic Party these days has fewer working people than before, but many more technical/professional people, who are the biggest beneficiaries of middle-class programs such as student loans, mortgage interest deductions, and the like. Here in NW Oregon, one county that was reliably Republican turned blue over the past fifteen years with the growth of the high-tech sector.

[AsSeenOnTV]

Actually, I'm sorry, but that was unfettered CAPITALISM that did this. It was REAGAN who killed the unions - after he gutted California's mental-health system, increased the cost of public education, and increased prison spending.

Im sorry, but the unions are doing just fine, look at their pensions. Thats one reason why we are going bankrupt across the country. And why HD is looking more and more into China and elsewhere.

[MacAttack]

"No. I'm not an over educated college student. I'm a 40 year old CNC Machinist, who is anti Ried, Pelosi, Obama, and anti communist. -Smart ass.

43 year old service technician here who is anti Ried, Pelosi, Obama, and anti communist..... "


I guess that leaves me... high school dropout - out of the house at 16 - who, thanks to higher taxes, was able to work their way through school to a pair of degrees - accounting and a master's. In my book, the last ten years were an unmitigated disaster for the middle class, and it's about all Obama and the others can do to right the ship and still keep their corporate masters happy (and that applies to both parties).
I lived through Reagan as Governor of California and as President, so this isn't new stuff.
Before Reagan, the University of California was tuition-free.

[AsSeenOnTV]

........and it's about all Obama and the others can do to right the ship and still keep their corporate masters happy (and that applies to both parties)........

:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack

adding 3 trillion to the debt and that ship is still underwater???
What will this 30 billion do he is asking for now? Pay off another union?

The day he went into office, he promised the waters would recede, he promised unemployment wouldnt go higher than 8 percent, he promised a lot of things that didnt come true. he said the buck stops here at one time, and now all we hear is bush bush bush. He promised to enforce pay as you go, and guess what? he promised no back room deals. he promised........... blah blah blah

[alvycolt45]

I think Americans need start taking pride in their country. China owns way too much of our debt, and if you don't want to become slaves to them, start supporting American companies that manufacture in America. 45,000 factories have been shut down in the last two years in America due to outsourcing. There is very little manufacturing going on in our country, and it's going to kill the U.S. We don't produce steel, cell phones, T.V.'s, computers, hardly any cars anymore, musical instruments, etc. We just invent them, and let some third world country produce them, because it's cheaper to manufacture and ship from overseas.

I would tell Harley Davidson to shove it if they started manufacturing and importing their products from overseas. I know it would help their bottom line, but have some f#$%^&% integrity. Really! There is'nt even a major cowboy boot brand that isn't owned by a chinese conglomerat. What the hell do the chinese know about F@#$%!&% cowboy boots?

People in this country had better wake the hell up. Before you know it, the U.S. will be the third world country that we outsource to. I'm going to stop right here, because I'm about to start to get political, but I will repeat the fact that Americans need to start taking pride in their own country once again, and resist the current movement of a new world order. Take everything and give them nothing.



That day may come, but it will be called World War III.

[Tulsaghost]

Im sorry, but the unions are doing just fine, look at their pensions. Thats one reason why we are going bankrupt across the country. And why HD is looking more and more into China and elsewhere.
so..you are anti working man? he should not have a pension and health benefits?

[AsSeenOnTV]

so..you are anti working man? he should not have a pension and health benefits?

A pension that is more after retirement than before? Figure it out, why do you think calif is 800 billion in the hole? and Detroit is about abandoned?

[Tulsaghost]

:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack:roflblack

adding 3 trillion to the debt and that ship is still underwater???
What will this 30 billion do he is asking for now? Pay off another union?

The day he went into office, he promised the waters would recede, he promised unemployment wouldnt go higher than 8 percent, he promised a lot of things that didnt come true. he said the buck stops here at one time, and now all we hear is bush bush bush. He promised to enforce pay as you go, and guess what? he promised no back room deals. he promised........... blah blah blah
hmm...he hasn't added to the debt, he may...if you remember..Bush signed the bailout in the mortgage crisis..he bailed out the big companies that fended off regulation that might have stopped that. Post a REAL fact occasionally, back up your statements with data..show me where I am wrong, don't just take a brush and paint broad strokes.

BTW..most liberal hippie bolshevist commies don't own or run major corporations that offshore manufacturing, the owners and stockholder are right wing conservatives, who favor less regulation so they can move MORE jobs overseas and jack up stock prices and lower capital gains taxes so they can make more money.

Maybe YOU need to check your sources of information, O'reilly and Rush arent known for factual information.

And before you question MY patriotism, jump your happy ass down to a recruiter and sign up for the military.

Best idea Heinlein ever had, service means citizenship.

[AsSeenOnTV]

I have a bridge to sell you if you are interested:laugh

[Tulsaghost]

A pension that is more after retirement than before? Figure it out, why do you think calif is 800 billion in the hole? and Detroit is about abandoned?
wow..I have never seen one of those, the best pension I ever saw was 60% of salary after working 40 years....lemme see, now I am not a college student like you, but 60% isnt more than 100%...back up your statement, facts, references...

[AsSeenOnTV]

hmm...he hasn't added to the debt

Proves it in a nutshell you run with the sheep

[Tulsaghost]

no you do..a Rush sheep..show me the facts, back your statement sup..

[alvycolt45]

so..you are anti working man? he should not have a pension and health benefits?

ASoTV isn't saying workers should not have pensions or health benefits, but rather that workers in China and other countries do not require them so the labor costs are cheaper, thus manufactering jobs have left for cheaper labor countries.

Workers in the US would have to sacrifice if jobs are going to stay here. But no one like to sacrifice in the US. Neither the workers or the consumers.

[AsSeenOnTV]

hmm...he hasn't added to the debt

OK, lets take this very very slowly for you NPR viewers and the like


First of all, Obama was a junior senator from Illinois, right? The democrats ran congress and controlled the budget process for 2008-2009. (as well as 2010, and 2011) they had to contend with George Bush, which caused them to compromise on spending, when Bush somewhat reluctantly got tough on spending increases.

For fiscal year 2009 though, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid bypassed George Bush entirely, passing continuing resolutions to keep government running until Barack Obama could take office. At that time, they passed a massive omnibus spending bill to
complete the FiscalYear 2009 budgets.

And where was Barack Obama during this time? He was a member of that very Congress that passed all of these massive spending bills, and he signed the omnibus bill as President to
complete FY 2009.

If the Democrats inherited any deficit, it was the FY 2007 deficit, the last of the Republican budgets. That deficit was the lowest in five years, and the fourth straight decline in deficit spending. After that, Democrats in Congress took control of spending, and that includes Barack Obama, who
voted for the budgets. If Obama inherited anything, he inherited it from himself!

In a nutshell, what Obama is saying is "I inherited a deficit
that I voted for and then I voted to expand that deficit
four-fold."

[Gone]

no you do..a Rush sheep..show me the facts, back your statement sup..

+1.

Owned. :laugh

[biknut]

Why should I buy an over priced American product when I can buy the same thing from China for 1/4th the price? And BTW I don't give a damn about your pension.

[biknut]

I'm 100% against all labor unions after having been a Teamster for 10 years. I'm now a firm believer in, if you don't like what I pay, you're free to find another job.

[~Grind~]

Here is link some of you Neo-cons might find interesting.

http://cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

and an exerpt...


"In 1993 President Clinton inherited the deficit spending problem and did more than just talk about it; he fixed it. In his first two years, with a cooperative Democratic Congress, he set the course for the best economy this country has ever experienced. Then he worked with what could be characterized as the most hostile Congress in history, led by Republicans for the last six years of his administration. Yet, under constant personal attacks from the right, he still managed to get the growth of the debt down to 0.32% (one third of one percent) his last year in office. Had his policies been followed for one more year the debt would have been reduced for the first time since the Kennedy administration. Contrary to the myth fostered by our right-wing friends, under a Democrat, revenue increased and spending decreased.



When President Bush II came into office in 2001 he quickly turned all that progress around. With the help of a Republican controlled Congress he immediately gave a massive tax cut based on a failed economic policy; perhaps an economic fantasy describes it better. The last year Mr. Clinton was in office the nation borrowed 18 billion dollars. The first year Mr. Bush II was in office he had to borrow 133 billion[8]. The first tax cut Bush pushed through a willing Republican Congress caused an upswing in government borrowing that was supposed to stimulate the economy, but two years later Bush had to push through yet another tax cut. The second tax cut was needed because it was clear that the first one did not work. Economic history tells us the second did not work either. As a result of all his tax cutting with no cutting in spending, in 2003 President Bush set a record for the biggest single yearly dollar increase in debt in the nation’s history. He did it again in 2004, increasing the debt more than half a trillion dollars. Since 2003 total borrowing has typically been around $500,000,000,000 per year. Even Mr. Reagan never increased the debt that much in a single year; Mr. Reagan’s biggest increase was only 282 billion, half of GWB’s outrageous spending. As a result of the fact that the debt was already pretty high when Bush II entered office, his annual rate of increase is only averaging 7% per year so far. In 2006 he was holding press conferences bragging that the debt was increasing at the rate of only 300 billion dollars a year, yet in reality it was twice that. Again the facts do not match Neo-Con rhetoric."

[~Grind~]

i say this in all sincerity and mean no disrespect: You could easily take any of the left-bashing arguments in this thread, replace the word "left" with "right", and not only would the argument be exactly the same, it would be just as true. The fault of the state of this country lies with republicans and democrats alike. Fact: Historically, both had a hand in supporting deregulation and cheap labor. All this left/right red/blue win/lose best/worst nonsense really doesn't solve anything and is just a distraction.

People have to make decisions for themselves based on their own values. Don't want to buy imported products? Then don't. Think imported products are superior? Go for it. I think the main thing is to not be wasteful and buy crap you don't need with money you don't have. Want to get the country back on track? That's the way everyone can take part in, no matter your political leanings.

And i agree with snowman; i assumed it was about h-d building bikes in those countries for sale there. One's opinion on that could vary depending on whether one supports the import/export of products.

+1

[racerwill]

you don't gotta go home but you can't stay here.....

this thread is closed

Ww